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Old 03-06-2007, 05:59 AM   #46  
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"If you were around when Cd's first became available you might agree more with that "audiophile" more. One of the mistakes many studios made was simply taking the master tape meant for LP's and using it to make CD's. Since they were compensated using the RIAA curve for vinyl, they indeed could sound harsh and lacking of "warmth."

Ed - you may have a valid point, but within the last 25+ years or so, somebody managed to get things rights with CD's. However, many audiophiles still hold to their "roots" about not only CD's but a lot of the new technology and don't accept or even consider them as an audiophile caliber option.

"Companies like Telarc, caught on very quickly and released recordings intended solely for CD listening. Later, the older studios re-released many fine recordings after re equalizing them for CD audio. Also, the early converters, yes I owned one of the first two CD players released, were not all that great...not bad...just not great. The technology in both the players and the recordings has come a long, long way. Possibly the audiophile you made fun of, just did not have enough patience to wait for all the problems to be sorted out."

I wouldn't say he made fun of him, FWIW. Its a statement of a previous statement. It is what it is..at least according to the audiophile is question. I do feel that more tube/vinyl based audiophiles have had many opportunities since the release of CD's to consider the enhancement from its earlier stages, but are not willing for whatever reason. Its a revolving cycle; before there was stereo, there was mono and that was the audiophile way and stereo wasn't up to par. Now stereo is the king, and all else is non-audiophile. Before long, it will change again.

"For all in these forums, may I advise broadening your understanding."

I agree whole heartedly, and audiophiles should be included in this. But as an audiophile, why not start with surround sound?
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Old 03-06-2007, 02:46 PM   #47  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDWallace
... Possibly the audiophile you made fun of, just did not have enough patience to wait for all the problems to be sorted out."
I wouldn't say he made fun of him, FWIW. Its a statement of a previous statement. It is what it is...
I don't know why you two and a couple of other frequent posters won't use the like everyone else - Its very confusing to have the pastes from others seamlessly mixed in with your response - it's not just a private conversation - and the rest of us who are not participating actively - deserve consideration - and even you guys seem to get confused over who said what ( see quote above) -
at least put your pasted stuff in a highlighted box using the -- button --
- more info here http://www.highdefforum.com/misc.php?do=bbcode
Thanks
BTW - my old 2002 DVP-NS915V Sony SACD/DVD player has a 22Khz "slow" response setting that is intended to return the harsh mis-mixed CD engineered "presence" back to vinyl dynamics when needed - it works for me on some CDs and without the pops and worn groove noises of my old vinyls - although I still keep my stacks of vinyl (incl 45s and 78s with a few turntables) and good stylus's
Just like I have projectors for my 8mm Kodacolor movies and 35mm slides - and ¾ U-Matic video tapes -
the archived analog originals are just more fun to play with than 2nd gen copies IMO
-even a working 5¼ floppy drive and a couple of shoe-boxes full of disks - gotta copy those

Last edited by maicaw; 03-06-2007 at 02:52 PM..
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:03 PM   #48  
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Maicaw - You use the quote button, I use " ". Its all the same. Sorry its a little tougher for you to keep up, but take your time with it. No one seems to be confused at all. Everyone posts comments for the intended previous posting of their choosing. I've gotten no other complaints either. We post how we choose, as do you. Thanks for your posting and comment that was clearly on topic, though.
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Old 03-06-2007, 09:26 PM   #49  
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So Maicaw, based on some of your statements, I think its a rather fair assumption that you're a true audiophile by nature.

How does high end surround sound fare with audiophiles?

I would also conclude considering your preference of media and articulation of words that you have experienced surround on a higher level than most; if nothing else, just to see what the fuss is about, no? If you would can you bring us up to speed on your surround exposure and how it rates to audiophile caliber systems of today? In your opinion, are there more cons than pro's?

We would love to hear from an audiophile directly. We're in no rush, so we'll wait patiently. Well, at least I'm not in a rush.
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Old 03-07-2007, 12:41 AM   #50  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDWallace
So Maicaw, based on some of your statements, I think its a rather fair assumption that you're a true audiophile by nature.
We have a wonderful acoustic hall at the University of Oregon -about 500 seats -Beall Concert Hall- It was built lovingly before the turn of the century (1900) for the University School of Music and is always a favorite of visiting classical musicians - invited by the University
I am spoiled by having twice weekly opportunities to hear such such great performers - live - in an intimate venue within walking distance of my home - and at "student" prices.
There are also performances by the same ensembles and more popular ones in a much larger and newer Performing Arts Center -seating several 1000s but it's acoustics are so bad - that everything is amplified through speakers over the proscenium - and since they are mic'd and mixed - the live performances sound like recordings.
Quote:
How does high end surround sound fare with audiophiles?
I would also conclude considering your preference of media and articulation of words that you have experienced surround on a higher level than most; if nothing else, just to see what the fuss is about, no?
My post #37 earlier in this thread http://www.highdefforum.com/showpost...8&postcount=37 has links to my and others earlier posts in this forum - basically what I use - My 4 legacy stereo and surround speakers (4- JBL4311B "control monitors" are for music - the others -center and subs are added for movies only) - they are very old and very good but not high end - in my 22'x18' room with ĺ" plaster walls and ceiling and carpeted 2" thick wood floor they seem adequate for my tastes.
As far as media is concerned - my favorite is a SACD reissue of a 1973 4 channel tape by E Power Biggs - My amp (Sony DE885) and the JBL speakers are maxed out trying to produce the intensity of 4 Pipe Organs at the same time - one on each speaker - But it sure floats my musical boat
Quote:
Bach: The Four Great Toccatas and Fugues - The Four Antiphonal Organs of the Cathedral of Freiburg played simultaneously by E. Power Biggs Release Date: April 01, 2003 - SS87983 SACD - multichannel/Stereo
The other SACD Surround mixes such as a Mahler and Pink Floyd don't make me "float" however some of the DTS remix tracks on "Black and White Night' do sound a little better than the original stereo - but for much of that DVD I set the audio to stereo - A great SACD IMO is
Quote:
http://sonyclassical.com/music/66782/home.html ... Appalachian Journey features all-new music by Edgar Meyer and Mark O'Connor, ...Highlights of the new album also include performances by country superstar Alison Krauss, Yo-Yo Ma, Mark O'Connor and Edgar Meyer ... the poignantly beautiful ballad by Civil War era composer Stephen Foster called "Slumber, My Darling", and a new arrangement of the traditional "Fisher's Hornpipe".
James Taylor is on it too - but I'm not a JT fan - the interesting thing is that the SACD is Stereo only -not multichannel - and it's a just perfect way to reproduce that instrumental stage performance
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:56 PM   #51  
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[quote=maicaw]...center and subs are added for movies only...

Good for you...and I DO mean that as a compliment!!!

Ed
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:28 PM   #52  
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Default OK...lets here it then.

Can anyone explain WHY it wouldn't be beneficial to use a center channel to help lock in the sound stage and a sub or two to help with the low end? But, heres the catch. Give an example of what you are referring to. For example:

If you've heard a system where the center channel seemed to make the sound stage sound out of per portions, give us some background on the setup/situation.

In all fairness, though. If the example can explained as to why it sounded that way and how it should have been fixed and setup properly, be prepared for a rebuttal. IMO, the open dialog will help.

Anyone care to begin?
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Old 03-07-2007, 09:59 PM   #53  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDWallace
Maicaw - You use the quote button, I use " ". Its all the same. Sorry its a little tougher for you to keep up, but take your time with it. No one seems to be confused at all. Everyone posts comments for the intended previous posting of their choosing. I've gotten no other complaints either. We post how we choose, as do you. Thanks for your posting and comment that was clearly on topic, though.
The vB code acessed by is a software flag you and the others may not be aware of -
Quote:
if your pastes are highlighted by using the vB code -as here -
they are invisible to searches, quotes and other functions so only your original text is retrieved,
and redundant references to other quotes posts, articles or pasted copy isn't mixed in with your words.
If you do a search for your own posts - it will show all the text in all your posts -
if you do a search on most other posters - it will only show the original stuff typed in - the "vB quoted" pastes and quotes aren't there (or even searched)

It's a valuable and easy to use tool that keeps these vBulletin forums from being as unsearchable as the old newsgroups were - with all their recursive references piled up on every new post -

The netiquette for vBulletin forums is a little different for that reason IMO

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Old 03-09-2007, 10:17 AM   #54  
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[quote=CDWallace]Can anyone explain WHY it wouldn't be beneficial to use a center channel to help lock in the sound stage and a sub or two to help with the low end? But, heres the catch. Give an example of what you are referring to. For example:


You may be getting tired of hearing my opinion, but since you asked....My brief post had to do mainly with the sound of powered subs. If you use good speakers, they should be able to produce believable accurate bass on their own. So why not use a powered sub anyway? Because, powered subs tend to have a one note bass sound, they are designed that way. Powered subs are best used for movie soundtracks where their peaky output can add some real punch to explosions and other sound effects. In many kinds of music, the peak output of a sub at the port frequency can ruin the bass in a performance.
This is much more noticeable on types of music such as jazz and classical, but sometimes on "acoustic" rock recordings as well. Listen to a recording with a insturment like a string bass doing a descending scale. On good speakers you should hear all the notes, ie different notes. On a system using a sub tuned for movie sound effects this tends to sound more like just one frequency of bass which is not how it is supposed to sound. In other words a powered sub tends to obscure or overwhelmes the different bass notes of some types of musical performances.
The reason for my congratulations is that it is good to hear someone running their system the way I do. I use the sub, a mirage 12", for movies if the extra boom is wanted (also have a nice 10" Velodyne). If we are listening to music or watching a musical, something with pretty good music in it, we turn off the sub and the result, to ME, is a much smoother and more realistic listening experience. It is extremely hard to get a sub balanced to where it adds some warmth without becoming a one note thumpper! And it seems by the time it is tamed that much it doesn't add the tump wanted for movie sound tracks. My mains in the living room are Infinity towers, sorry I forgot the model but think it is 2001). They do not go as deep as a sub, but their bass output is much more linear. The receiver we use, a Nakamichi, has very good bass output and is reasonably smooth for a surround unit. In my experience dolby receivers tend to have rather rough sounding output stages in them, I believe this is due to the kind of ic's used to balance cost vs power output.

Soundstage? Well it depends on how the performance was recorded. I do not use artifical surround effects such as stadium or hall when listening to stereo cd's. To my ears it actually messes up the sound stage, but I recognize that others might find the effect pleasing. In addition to the NAK on the HDTV setup in the living room I also have a separate Yamaha dolby 5.1 decoder. It is not currently being used as it was for my Adcom tuner/preamp and separate amp which now are used only for stereo in the listening room. Have had Yamaha and Denon surround sound receivers, and other manufacturers models of dolby decoders.

Ed

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Old 03-10-2007, 07:10 AM   #55  
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Default I always appreciate most of what some people have to say.

"My brief post had to do mainly with the sound of powered subs. If you use good speakers, they should be able to produce believable accurate bass on their own. So why not use a powered sub anyway? Because, powered subs tend to have a one note bass sound, they are designed that way."

Ed, I completely agree with you as far as good speakers should be able to produce accurate bass on their own without the use of a sub. This should depend upon the speaker as well. IMO, a floor stander that can't accurately produce bass region cycles into the mid to low 30's without either destroying its drivers or the notes, its much of a floor stander. But if we are talking bookshelf speakers, which I too use, you can't expect that type of performance from its 5.25 or 6.5" driver. This is where the sub can be effective, once its properly integrated with the bookshelves. However, I'm not sure if I can agree with your notion that powered subs are designed to produce one bass note sound at a time. You may be referring to the problems ported subs can run into; especially when you use them for music. Once you crank them up to a certain volume, you start running into port noise and such. Its almost like the port is acting as another speakers, to some degree. Only thing is, the driver is trying to play the music accurately; the port is just playing the "noise." Then you have the muddiness in the bass and accurate is tossed out the window. Your better and more expensive subs have almost eliminated this problem, but it still persists even in those cases.

In my application and those I've recommended and built for others, I've always suggested a sealed sub. No port, no port noise. With a good driver, you get the more accurate responses. To help keep the bass region linear and keep the one sub from working too hard, I've used two, if space allows. When you position them properly around the room, the bass is almost flat with very few peaks...if any at all. But back to what you were saying, its always IDEAL to have speakers that can produce the lower bass to sub bass notes without the use of a sub woofer. Like you mentioned below, its not a walk in the part to get one or even two subs integrated perfectly with the bookshelves.


"Powered subs are best used for movie soundtracks where their peaky output can add some real punch to explosions and other sound effects. In many kinds of music, the peak output of a sub at the port frequency can ruin the bass in a performance. This is much more noticeable on types of music such as jazz and classical, but sometimes on "acoustic" rock recordings as well. "

Like I mentioned earlier, ported subs can have this effect, especially if you are using only one. To help alleviate this problem, stop up the port and see if that helps with the peaky boom. If you have the option, go sealed.

"Listen to a recording with a instrument like a string bass doing a descending scale. On good speakers you should hear all the notes, ie different notes. On a system using a sub tuned for movie sound effects this tends to sound more like just one frequency of bass which is not how it is supposed to sound. In other words a powered sub tends to obscure or overwhelmes the different bass notes of some types of musical performances."

See above responses.


}"The reason for my congratulations is that it is good to hear someone running their system the way I do. I use the sub, a mirage 12", for movies if the extra boom is wanted (also have a nice 10" Velodyne). "If we are listening to music or watching a musical, something with pretty good music in it, we turn off the sub and the result, to ME, is a much smoother and more realistic listening experience."

"It is extremely hard to get a sub balanced to where it adds some warmth without becoming a one note thumpper!"{

Also, please refer to above responses.

"In my experience dolby receivers tend to have rather rough sounding output stages in them, I believe this is due to the kind of ic's used to balance cost vs power output."

Not sure about that one, either.
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Old 03-11-2007, 02:11 PM   #56  
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There are always exceptions, despite our search for audio Nirvana. Even the best floor standing speaker do not necessarily have the deepest bass especially for HT use.
Some have overcome this by including a powered sub in the enclosure with good success. NHT, AV123 Strata Mini and Def Tech towers are 3 popular examples.
While they work quite well, depending on the specific room, a separate sub that can be moved to a more advantageous location in that room 'might' be better. Nothing wrong in using a sub (quality one of course) with floorstanding speakers for cinema (or organ music for that matter) . Careful tuning and integration can yield excellent results. The sub is only there to supplement when needed, not detract. I can not really relate to the 'one note thumper' and a good sub covering 80hz down to 20hz. Not all 'good bass' is heard, but can be felt even if subtle. Maybe an 'octave' thumper?

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