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Old 07-23-2014, 03:44 PM   #76  
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Seeing as I have a degree in biology with postgraduate work in anatomy and physiology and work in optics and vision and have for 20 + years and a lot of my research has centered around association with sound and vision a pretty comfortable in my knowledge as well as the real world application
I do not believe for one second that you have a degree in biology if you don't even know the basic function of the eardrum lol. Also, i thought it was chemistry that you had a degree in? I read that on one of your other posts. My degree trumps all that crap anyways, I have a degree in sound engineering, I don't need a degree to understand how the eardrum works, learned it in primary school.

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Old 07-23-2014, 03:52 PM   #77  
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I have a minor in chemistry my major is in biology. nice try, having worked in eyes ears nose and throat clinics and opthamology vision research ever since 1992 I will rely on what years of actual experience as well as clinical knowledge havetaught me
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:59 PM   #78  
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I have a minor in chemistry my major is in biology. nice try, having worked in eyes ears nose and throat clinics and opthamology vision research ever since 1992 I will rely on what years of actual experience as well as clinical knowledge havetaught me
You do that
As far as I know, your experience means nothing, hell, in all those years you can't even spell ophthalmology.(Have a look for yourself ^)
Meanwhile, I will rely on the facts of modern science. Maybe you and I are not so different, maybe our replies and posts to each other do not....resonate, and we are not interpreting each other the way intended, sometimes communication is half the battle. I reckon though, if we spoke face to face, you would understand what I'm trying to say.
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:02 PM   #79  
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the communication aspect may be a possibility maybe you're not understanding or you're not expressing what you mean by the way I'm typing as I'm driving down the highway so excuse any spelling errors anybody on this board will tell you that I'm a horrible typist and any post I make will have at least three typos,when I had the chance to get off my phone and actually sit down and front of a keyboard on a computer maybe I will discuss this further
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:07 PM   #80  
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the communication aspect may be a possibility maybe you're not understanding or you're not expressing what you mean by the way I'm typing as I'm driving down the highway so excuse any spelling errors anybody on this board will tell you that I'm a horrible typist and any post I make will have at least three typos,when I had the chance to get off my phone and actually sit down and front of a keyboard on a computer maybe I will discuss this further
I think I've upset enough people on here, maybe I should just call it a day and be happy with my thoughts. Maybe I'm just not good enough at expressing them using the right words. I do feel as though most of the arguments I've had on here were about irrelevant things, most people thought that my main statement was that headphones sound better, some people thought i was saying they sound no different, and some people didn't even realize I was talking about headphones, they thought I was talking about stereo speakers upfront. Probably due to my inability to write good English.

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Old 07-23-2014, 04:54 PM   #81  
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I think perhaps we both got a little snarky - no biggie it happens.

I would sincerely like to assume their is some miscommunication and see if we can clear it up or help one another understand.

Your original post
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What is the purpose of surround sound? We only have 2 ears, the sounds waves from all the speakers be it 5.1 or 7.1 will eventually 'merge' and be detected by our two ear drums. Why not just have stereo? We listen in stereo.
For purposes of this discussion we will assume that the sound quality of all systems being compared are of equal value.

I see no mention of headphones. I took that to mean 2ch (stereo) audio vs. multichannel surround sound set-ups meaning 5.1/6.1/7.1 etc.

To me that means any stereo set up but if you want to confine it to headphones we can do that. IMO opinion 2ch stereo is 2ch stereo no matter the source and the issue of headphone vs 'speaker' is an entirely different issue altogether.

Building on that :

A)Do you think there is a difference in 2ch stereo speakers vs 2ch headphones? B) What type of headphone are you referring to ? supraaural, circumaural, in ear bud, or in ear headphone? Or do you think that doesn't matter.


To your original point, my position is that the purpose of surround sound is that it is the method that provides the truest global ( 3d) sound field and gives the most accurate reproduction of audio that has been properly mixed in surround sound. I believe that quality headphones do give a sound stage but that it is varied by a number of factors most notably in the case of circumaural headphones are open back vs closed back. All those things influence the sound stage and even then with all but a few ultra premium cans the sound with headphones seems to eminate in your head - not that their isn't differentiation of the sound stage and not that you can't tell the positioning of things but that the entire thing is within your head.
I compare the two situations to being immersed in an environment vs having that environment shrunk and immersed within my head. The former being Surround sound experience and the second being headphones.

Also surround sound provides a consistent soundstage while headphones vary widely. Meaning if I listen to a 5.1 mix in a properly calibrated sound system I feel as if I am in the center of the scene/action etc. regardless of where I am - my living room, the theater on 4th st, my buddy's den etc while with headphones the soundstage varies widely. I attest that the soundstage with my open Beyerdynamics DT990's is very wide with great separation while using Pioneer A-100o's it is a bit deeper but not nearly as wide, using closed back headphones such as Audio Technica ATH-M50's the soundstage is more congested with deeper bass and the orthostatic T50RP's are an entirely different matter. I can tell the 3d nature of the sounds with them all but it varies. My point is that headphones sound stages vary widely while surround sound remains the same - the size may scale but the positioning/proportions are always the same.

If you add 2ch speakers in the mix I classify them as having a soundstage with depth as well but rather than being immersed in it it is as if I am watching it from an audience like a play or a concert from a stage .

The immersive vs submersive difference to keep it simple and avoid getting lost in the woods of a bunch of technical details and red herrinngs is in the innate nature of how the sounds are produced.

In order for your original point to hold true the sound would have to be the same in both headphone stereo and surround sound -IF THE SOUND ISN'T THE EXACT SAME THEN BY THAT VERY NATURE (LOGIC)THE SOUND FIELDS AREN'T THE SAME and that is the reason for surround sound:

Which leads to my answer to your original question:
The reason for surround sound is it gives a better proximation of placing you in the center of the soundfield by creating the sounds around you than headphones do in simulating that environment. (Headphones take that environment , shrink it down (often distort or skew the positioning as well) and place it in your head)

If you are saying something different please let me know or if you do not agree with what II posted let me know what parts.

Last edited by jkkyler; 07-23-2014 at 05:03 PM..
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Old 07-23-2014, 05:58 PM   #82  
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Thank you for taking the time to go through all of this again.

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Originally Posted by jkkyler View Post
For purposes of this discussion we will assume that the sound quality of all systems being compared are of equal value.
Agreed
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Originally Posted by jkkyler View Post
I see no mention of headphones. I took that to mean 2ch (stereo) audio vs. multichannel surround sound set-ups meaning 5.1/6.1/7.1 etc.

To me that means any stereo set up but if you want to confine it to headphones we can do that. IMO opinion 2ch stereo is 2ch stereo no matter the source and the issue of headphone vs 'speaker' is an entirely different issue altogether.
Yes, I didn't put headphones, because like you say 2ch is 2ch, I just figured the best way to describe what I meant was to use headphones as an example of a device that puts audio directly into the ear without changing it in anyway [as if plugging RCA leads into our auditory nerves]. Now obviously headphones cannot accomplish that, but neither can SS speakers, so you could say its a level playing field in that sense. But what I'm trying to say mainly, is that 2ch is all that is needed to provide the truest global 3D sound field.
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Originally Posted by jkkyler View Post
Building on that :

A)Do you think there is a difference in 2ch stereo speakers vs 2ch headphones? B) What type of headphone are you referring to ? supraaural, circumaural, in ear bud, or in ear headphone? Or do you think that doesn't matter.
A. Yes, definately, for a 2ch source to provide the sound field, 1ch has to go in the designated ear without going in the right ear and vice versa, this is why I thought using headphones would be a good way to argue my point. With speakers, there will obviously be cross-talk, not to mention the acoustics of the room, which will make our brains be able to localize the speakers at the front, which is bad, because that is not the subversive sound field we are looking for. There is less of this localization, if any, with headphones, thats probably why it sounds like it's coming from inside your head? I believe if you were to use a device that purposely lets some of the left into the right (and vice versa) when listening to headphones, they sound more like speakers, in the scope of spatial sound field.

B. It doesn't matter, as described above, its the fact that it's 2ch that matters. Forget the headphones for now, imagine if we could send the 2ch directly into our ears without it being affected.
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Originally Posted by jkkyler View Post
To your original point, my position is that the purpose of surround sound is that it is the method that provides the truest global ( 3d) sound field and gives the most accurate reproduction of audio that has been properly mixed in surround sound. I believe that quality headphones do give a sound stage but that it is varied by a number of factors most notably in the case of circumaural headphones are open back vs closed back. All those things influence the sound stage and even then with all but a few ultra premium cans the sound with headphones seems to eminate in your head - not that their isn't differentiation of the sound stage and not that you can't tell the positioning of things but that the entire thing is within your head.
I compare the two situations to being immersed in an environment vs having that environment shrunk and immersed within my head. The former being Surround sound experience and the second being headphones.
This is a great point, I wonder if the same thing would happen if we could pump the audio directly into our auditory nerves?
Also, I wonder why it sounds like it's coming from in your head, if the audio was recorded in an environment with reverb etc (a true global 3D sound field). Maybe it only sounds like it's coming from inside your head when it hasn't been in a way that records the sound field correctly in a stereo perspective. Have you heard the virtual barber through a set of headphones? Do you think that sounds like it's coming from inside your head?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxAFb8LYuxc
Surely, if I were to place a 180degree microphone at both my ears, and record me being in any environment, then play the recording back using headphones, it would sound very lifelike with amazing sound field. Kind of like the way they shoot 3D video, by putting two cameras eyes distance apart from each other, when watching back, each image is sent to each eye respectively (like headphones). I have personally tried this with my cameras, and going cross-eyed to look at the video/picture, and it looks amazing! It is 3D inside the brain.
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Also surround sound provides a consistent soundstage while headphones vary widely. Meaning if I listen to a 5.1 mix in a properly calibrated sound system I feel as if I am in the center of the scene/action etc. regardless of where I am - my living room, the theater on 4th st, my buddy's den etc while with headphones the soundstage varies widely. I attest that the soundstage with my open Beyerdynamics DT990's is very wide with great separation while using Pioneer A-100o's it is a bit deeper but not nearly as wide, using closed back headphones such as Audio Technica ATH-M50's the soundstage is more congested with deeper bass and the orthostatic T50RP's are an entirely different matter. I can tell the 3d nature of the sounds with them all but it varies. My point is that headphones sound stages vary widely while surround sound remains the same - the size may scale but the positioning/proportions are always the same.
Hmm, I'm going to argue that the right headphone has not been chosen. I could quite easily say the same thing about SS speakers, what if they are not calibrated properly? What if the choice of speakers were too heavy on bass? The same negative impact on sound field would occur. I have been to many a SS setup that sounded terrible because of poor speaker positioning and poor calibration, bad room acoustics etc, I think SS speaker sound stages can also vary widely. But for the original purpose of this argument clarified in this post, it doesn't matter, it's about 2ch being all that is needed as opposed to 5.1 or 7.1 etc, provided the sound could enter our ears unaffected.

Just had a thought though, I may have answered my own question, if SS could perfectly enter the ear unaffected by absolutely anything, it would effectively be 2ch. The question now, is is that 2ch mixed down, the same as the 2ch commonly provided in dvd's and blurays? Probably not, it all depends on how it's recorded in the first place. I think this is where it differs from 3D vision, because with that, all they need is two cameras eye distance apart right? But with sound, they put microphones all over the place, and kind of build their own 3D sound field of the movie, that technically is not accurate at all. But they probably do it to make it sound better and more enjoyable to the viewer. A lot of sound effects in movies were not actually recorded when filming, they dub them in from pre recorded sessions, like doors closing, explosions etc.

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Originally Posted by jkkyler View Post
If you add 2ch speakers in the mix I classify them as having a soundstage with depth as well but rather than being immersed in it, it is as if I am watching it from an audience like a play or a concert from a stage.
I agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkyler View Post
The immersive vs submersive difference to keep it simple and avoid getting lost in the woods of a bunch of technical details and red herrinngs is in the innate nature of how the sounds are produced.
Sorry I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that, are you talking about the whole inside head vs outside thing? Or the immersive vs watching play at the front?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkyler View Post
In order for your original point to hold true the sound would have to be the same in both headphone stereo and surround sound -IF THE SOUND ISN'T THE EXACT SAME THEN BY THAT VERY NATURE (LOGIC)THE SOUND FIELDS AREN'T THE SAME and that is the reason for surround sound:
Yes, I was talking/thinking in reference to the sounds being exactly the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkyler View Post
Which leads to my answer to your original question:
The reason for surround sound is it gives a better proximation of placing you in the center of the soundfield by creating the sounds around you than headphones do in simulating that environment. (Headphones take that environment , shrink it down (often distort or skew the positioning as well) and place it in your head)

If you are saying something different please let me know or if you do not agree with what II posted let me know what parts.
Yes as you now know, I am saying something different than what you thought, to clarify, it's about the 2ch vs <2ch as opposed to headphones vs SS.
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Old 08-19-2014, 03:03 AM   #83  
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What is the purpose of surround sound? We only have 2 ears, the sounds waves from all the speakers be it 5.1 or 7.1 will eventually 'merge' and be detected by our two ear drums. Why not just have stereo? We listen in stereo.
For me it's the immersion and feeling like you're there, as opposed to some noise playing in front of you from the TV speakers. I like action/war kinds of flicks and video games like Call of Duty. I'm running 7.2 with the 2 extra front "presence" speakers. 11 speakers in all.

I'm running the back ones, the back sides, the front sides, front mains, 2 subwoofers, center and the presence (which are supposed to be "far fronts" and sit 6 feet behind your TV, but I don't live in a castle so they sit on the mains.

If you watch a movie like "Apocalypse Now" there are battle scenes where you hear helicopters coming up from behind your head, they fly "over you" then keep going out in front of you. At the right volume you feel like you're standing in that jungle with the choppers flying by you. It's a whole new experience than just "listening to a movie" You feel like you're in it.

With those presence speakers, let's say a chopper is out 100 yards in the distance coming at you. One of the men pulls out an RPG and fires at the chopper. You hear it explode like it's a quarter mile away in front of you.

This is all what I mean by immersion instead of just listening to noise coming from the set. You feel the explosions rumble through the room and your feet, just like you're there.

If war movies aren't your thing, but you like orchestras? You can make your system (depending on the receiver quality) sound like you are in any hall. You'll hear the violin section where they should be coming from, the cellos from their spot. Those tympani drums in the back like normal, you name it. You can't get that from a stereo except for pleasant sounding music like it's been from the beginning. Except with surround you now have a 3D aural experience all around you.

With the ability to set it up to any movie, music or game you want to hear correctly?

Last edited by straybeat; 08-19-2014 at 03:08 AM..
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:42 AM   #84  
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For me it's the immersion and feeling like you're there, as opposed to some noise playing in front of you from the TV speakers. I like action/war kinds of flicks and video games like Call of Duty. I'm running 7.2 with the 2 extra front "presence" speakers. 11 speakers in all.

I'm running the back ones, the back sides, the front sides, front mains, 2 subwoofers, center and the presence (which are supposed to be "far fronts" and sit 6 feet behind your TV, but I don't live in a castle so they sit on the mains.

If you watch a movie like "Apocalypse Now" there are battle scenes where you hear helicopters coming up from behind your head, they fly "over you" then keep going out in front of you. At the right volume you feel like you're standing in that jungle with the choppers flying by you. It's a whole new experience than just "listening to a movie" You feel like you're in it.

With those presence speakers, let's say a chopper is out 100 yards in the distance coming at you. One of the men pulls out an RPG and fires at the chopper. You hear it explode like it's a quarter mile away in front of you.

This is all what I mean by immersion instead of just listening to noise coming from the set. You feel the explosions rumble through the room and your feet, just like you're there.

If war movies aren't your thing, but you like orchestras? You can make your system (depending on the receiver quality) sound like you are in any hall. You'll hear the violin section where they should be coming from, the cellos from their spot. Those tympani drums in the back like normal, you name it. You can't get that from a stereo except for pleasant sounding music like it's been from the beginning. Except with surround you now have a 3D aural experience all around you.

With the ability to set it up to any movie, music or game you want to hear correctly?
Sorry I don't think you understood the question. It doesn't matter how many channels of audio your set-up is, you only have two ears.
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Old 08-20-2014, 01:27 PM   #85  
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Sorry I don't think you understood the question. It doesn't matter how many channels of audio your set-up is, you only have two ears.
I understood the question fine. After playing lead guitar for 46 years I kind of know a little about sound.

Ever hear the doppler effect when a car or plane goes by? It starts quiet, then gets louder as the sound approaches you, then gets quieter as it goes away from you? Surround reproduces that really well. Your 2 ears can tell where it's coming from and where it's going just fine.

When it comes to music it sends different instruments to different speakers for amazing sound. Well, depending on how your sound fields are set up.
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Old 08-20-2014, 03:48 PM   #86  
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Unfortunately, Schabz is stuck on the notion that two ears means stereo origination is all that's needed, even though real world sound is multidimensional, coming from all around us. Despite rather lengthy posts, he had yet to address that issue so far on this thread. He just ignores it.
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Old 08-20-2014, 04:34 PM   #87  
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I think that from a theoretical standpoint it would be possible to produce surround sound with just two channels for headphone use. In the real world, as opposed to the theoretical, hardly any, if not any, material is recorded that way. Surround tracks are recorded with the 5, 6 or 7 speakers + LFE in mind, not headphones.
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:59 PM   #88  
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I think that from a theoretical standpoint it would be possible to produce surround sound with just two channels for headphone use. In the real world, as opposed to the theoretical, hardly any, if not any, material is recorded that way. Surround tracks are recorded with the 5, 6 or 7 speakers + LFE in mind, not headphones.
You are correct sir. I don't remember if it was an Xbox game or something else I had, but it did surround through the headphones and I was amazed at the reproduction and feeling that you heard 10 different sources from different places in the "room." It was done quite well.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:04 AM   #89  
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I understood the question fine. After playing lead guitar for 46 years I kind of know a little about sound.

Ever hear the doppler effect when a car or plane goes by? It starts quiet, then gets louder as the sound approaches you, then gets quieter as it goes away from you? Surround reproduces that really well. Your 2 ears can tell where it's coming from and where it's going just fine.

When it comes to music it sends different instruments to different speakers for amazing sound. Well, depending on how your sound fields are set up.
You obviously don't know that much about sound lol, I'm pretty sure the emphasis of the doppler effect is the pitch change, not the amplitude. A better example would be a police car siren going past, as it approaches, it has a high pitch, then changes to a lower pitch.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:13 AM   #90  
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Unfortunately, Schabz is stuck on the notion that two ears means stereo origination is all that's needed, even though real world sound is multidimensional, coming from all around us. Despite rather lengthy posts, he had yet to address that issue so far on this thread. He just ignores it.
I have addressed the issues, you are just too dumb/ignorant to understand/listen. Your above comment is absolutely false, I never once said that, your failing to understand my point. What i'm saying is it doesn't matter how many sources of sound there is, we hear the real multidimensional world with just our two ears, the sound comes from EVERYWHERE, this is what makes our hearing multidimensional (also called a sound-stage). So if we only need two ears to perceive this sound-stage, is IS possible to re-create a stereo sound track to imitate the "real world sound". Just like we do with 3D movies and our eyes. You will find this much easier two understand if you compare it to vision, it's practically the same concept im getting at here.
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