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New guy needs to be schooled! Looking for a surround system under $600

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Old 07-08-2013, 05:53 PM   #31  
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After reading all this back and forth, it must be I'm nuts, and it's my ears that are out of whack. Different manufacter's use different componts, Chip sets, power supplies, and all the way down to solder, makes a difference. Yamaha, Onkyo. marantz, Denon, Sansui, and into hgh end. How, can they all have the same sound, tonal qaulity's, and perfomance? With out getting technical, that is beyond my realm of knowledge, I trust my ears. I was a contractor and not an electronics guru. I know very little, enough to get me by. So, if all have the same sound characteristics, why then are they prived so differently? And, why do experts agree with my statements? Why, do high end amps sell for much more than say a Denon? It's not the bells and whistles, It's the qulity of audio reproduction that counts. Put two avr's on ebay, a Denon and an equal Onkyo and the Denon will draw more money, quicker. Why is it?
I belive what I see and hear. I have done my homework and all the R&D. again, I've had maratnz since the 70's. Then on to Onkyo for many years. The Denon rivals Marantz in sound. IT's that simple.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:49 PM   #32  
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I get that you guys hear what you hear and that your conclusions make intuitive sense to you. The same can be said of all those people who truly believe that speaker wires make a difference. But, that kind of reasoning doesn't make your conclusions anything more than personal opinion.

At the end of the day, a buyer needs to make sure his receiver has the power needed to drive his speakers in his room. Beyond that, room correction, connectivity, and features are distinguishing factors to consider when making a purchase. And, hey, if you believe a Marantz is more musical than an Onkyo, then get the Marantz. But, if you are going to recommend receivers as warmer or brighter, you really should have some substantive basis for such recommendations.

Last edited by BIslander; 07-08-2013 at 06:55 PM..
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:43 PM   #33  
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I get that you guys hear what you hear and that your conclusions make intuitive sense to you. The same can be said of all those people who truly believe that speaker wires make a difference. But, that kind of reasoning doesn't make your conclusions anything more than personal opinion.

At the end of the day, a buyer needs to make sure his receiver has the power needed to drive his speakers in his room. Beyond that, room correction, connectivity, and features are distinguishing factors to consider when making a purchase. And, hey, if you believe a Marantz is more musical than an Onkyo, then get the Marantz. But, if you are going to recommend receivers as warmer or brighter, you really should have some substantive basis for such recommendations.
The "proof" you seek is as clear, as long as you are willing to accept it as fact.
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Put two avr's on ebay, a Denon and an equal Onkyo and the Denon will draw more money, quicker. Why is it?
With all that is offered by Onkyo, people still are drawn to the Dennon, Why? are vintage amps, and receivers drawing as much, or more than they were new?
Simple, It sounds good, It's all about personal prefrences in sound. I am very fussy, and have mainly high res audio in my collection. And having experience in this since the early 70's, when I was over seas in the Army and Stereo equipment was very inexpensive. I've been at it as a hobby since 1969 when I bought my 1st Marantz.
I'm speaking from what I've learned over those years. It all boils down to what you like and think is correct. Opinions are like asses - we all have one. but very often, it's best to keep it covered up.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:59 PM   #34  
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Originally Posted by quad4.0 View Post
The "proof" you seek is as clear, as long as you are willing to accept it as fact.
All you've offered is personal experience, the same sort of "proof" the exotic cable proponents offer.
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I'm speaking from what I've learned over those years.
Perhaps you could share something substantive you've learned over all those years, something beyond the claim that this must be true because you personally hear sonic signatures from each manufacturer.

Meanwhile, I wish I could get back what I paid for my vintage Denon 3805 rather than the 20 cents on the dollar that it's fetching on eBay.

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Old 07-09-2013, 09:24 AM   #35  
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I understand what you are saying but I am insistant that their is coloration of sound (defined as deviation from 100 true reproduction ) that is not snake oil. I agree that theoretically all amps SHOULD sound equal but in practice they do not. Whether this is from the manufacturing process introducing things such as harmonics, poor attenuation of signal, electromagnetic interference from poorly shielded electronics - I know not but the difference is there and notable.
I don't believe in the diffeences in speaker wire (BTW I use 14g lamp cord of a spool from Home depot at like 11 cents a foot or so ) and different brands of HDMI cables all sound the same - snake oil and pseudoscience are things I definitely don't believe in but evewn weel respected audiophile journals / websites will acknowledge that there is a difference in the sound of amplifiers and they will also solidly refute the things such as wiring (provided sufficient gauge for the length of run is followed).
Quad4.0 IMO takes a lot of things based on opinion or faith and represents them as fact which I certainly don't.
Example - when I bought my projector screen I was sorried that with my speakers behind it that not buying a perforated screen designed to be acoustically transparent would make a difference but repeated blind test (actually wearing a bnlindfold) and listening with the screen lowered vs. raised I both my wife and myself can not notice a difference at all.

Edit : Bislander -here is a part of an article that looks/describes scientific and objective measurements and reasons why amps may sound different

actually what I had posted was too many characters to allow the post so here is a link to the article

http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

These are the variables addressed

Input Sensitivity
Total Harmonic Distortion (THD)
Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM)
Crossover Distortion
Frequency Response
Phase Response
Output Power
Output Current
Power Bandwidth
Open Loop Gain
Open Loop Distortion
Open Loop Output Impedance
Feedback Ratio
Output Impedance

Last edited by jkkyler; 07-09-2013 at 09:44 AM..
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:32 AM   #36  
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As a final statement to this conversation, It seems that Jykler has both agreed and disagreed with my conclusions. I know what I hear. Before I tore the Integra down and gave it to my son, we did a little test. I put a dvd audio in and listened to some of it through both avr's. I never said anything about interconnects or speaker wires. The two avr's have a very distinct different sound. Perhaps the terms I used intitally were not understood. I never said I was eloquent. I only have a 2 yr. degree. Rizz employed better terms than I did. All in all, the point was made. It's not opinon, it's fact. Because I am unable to explain in technical terms, is no reason to say I'm wrong.
May I give an example: I know a dude who bought the top of the line Denon. To my surprise he took it back after 2 days and bought the number 2 Integra, it was a new model. ( just 3 months ago). Upon questioning his choice, he stated quite clearly, the Integra had more punch. To each his own. again, on ebay, the Denons command more money and are more sought after than any other brand. There must be a reason for that. Not being egregious in any way. What it all boils down to is: what sounds good to your ears is the choice you make. Not everyone hears and sees the same thing. This issue was rasied long ago by painters and artists. And, it is very true.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:46 AM   #37  
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Imo , the main reason Denon commands a higher price is build quality and reputation. Integra ,(onkyo's premium line) is similsr in build qualty but much lesser known. I think Bislander may concur diffetent AVR may sound diffetent but he was quite specific in refetencing only amplifiers snd not including signal processing duch as DAC's. sound evidence though , not anectdotal musings (placebo is powerful stuff) is what he needs and I totally understand that.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:13 AM   #38  
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jkkyler - Thanks for posting that link. The technical discussion is far beyond my level. However, I would note two things. First, at no point does the article attempt to link amplifier differences to what is being discussed here - that vendor engineering decisions produce identifiable sonic signatures. Also, the article says speaker wires could affect test outputs, casting some doubt in my mind on everything else the author says. But, again, thanks for the post. It's the first one to get beyond personal opinion.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:16 AM   #39  
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quad4.0 - It's a fact that you think you hear a difference. No one has ever questioned that fact. But, that's the only thing factual in your posts.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:38 AM   #40  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
jkkyler - Thanks for posting that link. The technical discussion is far beyond my level. However, I would note two things. First, at no point does the article attempt to link amplifier differences to what is being discussed here - that vendor engineering decisions produce identifiable sonic signatures. Also, the article says speaker wires could affect test outputs, casting some doubt in my mind on everything else the author says. But, again, thanks for the post. It's the first one to get beyond personal opinion.
To relate this to practical real world conditions I can only offer this hypothesis , vendor (producer) methods are most likely consistent within a product line or possibly an entire manufacturer supply. Logic leads me to believe that this may produce a consistent deficiency in one of the variables mentioned for example company "A" manufacturing leads to a consistently poor slew response. This in turn would/could/should produce a consistent coloration/modification from true sound. As nobody I know can consistently identify what factor is inducing sound distortions - the fact that it is consistent tends to lead to subjective and descriptive terminology such as cols/bright/warm/muddy. As longer wavelengths of light are in the red spectrum they tend to develop the nomenclature as hot/warm and shorter wavelengths of light in the blue area receive the moniker of cool. Longer sound waves - the low bass notes I believe gather a warm moniker when these are overemphasized and the higher shrill notes get the inverse nomenclature of cool.

I, as well as others, tend to relate a specific pitch or coloration from true sound with one of these names as I am not sure of the technical nomenclature or why the deviations exist but my terms to my ear are consistent and I think others label these sound deviations in a consistent manner.

my
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:29 PM   #41  
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Over the years I have come to respect the opinions of a group of posters, especially at AVS. While others ascribe sonic signatures to particular brands of receivers, I have not seen such descriptions from the members of that group. Everyone has an opinion, but they don't all carry the same weight.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:39 PM   #42  
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Over the years I have come to respect the opinions of a group of posters, especially at AVS. While others ascribe sonic signatures to particular brands of receivers, I have not seen such descriptions from the members of that group. Everyone has an opinion, but they don't all carry the same weight.
True . Many very technical discussions at AVS. I don't know that I can say that brand A is such and such while brand b is suich and such but in my limited experiences I can tell the diff between my 606 and 905 (both onkyo), a denon 4308ci (my brother in law owns with a B+W set-up and we have compared each others AVR hooked up to sam speakers) and an old Hughes and Kettner tube amp/ Outside of that I can't say for certain. I cannot tell a diff between my 606 and my buddy's Onkyo608 or his brothers Onkyo708. I have heard certain brands referred to as consistently cool or warm but can only speak from personal experiences.

I do believe that not all amps are created equal (which is an opinion shared by many including a lot at AVS as well as high end audiophile sites such as Head-Fi, Audiophile and Home Theater) and it has to do with the shortcoming in certain MEASURABLE areas. My opinion is that has to do with either compromises or deficiencies in the manufacturing process.

I too think at this point we have reached as common a ground as we can. Ultimately Isuggest somebody listen to their set-up prior to purchase and buy what sounds good to them.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:30 AM   #43  
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quad4.0 - It's a fact that you think you hear a difference. No one has ever questioned that fact. But, that's the only thing factual in your posts.
Right you are! And Emotiva uses the same exact componts as Onkyo, and Krell uses the same chip sets as Denon I suppose. as does every maker of audio equipment. If my statements regarding the makers is not factual, then I apologize. You know about as much about this stuff as I do. I admit to being a novice, who has been into hi-fi since 1968.
When you go in the service and sent overseas, after work there is not much to do,so we all got expensive stereo gear, dirt cheap from the PX. And we all would hang out checking it all out, learning about it and enjoying. My statements are based on over 40 yrs experience messing with this stuff. No two amps have the same sound, tonal quaility's or expression. And, please understand this, we had lots of free time. Receivers got swapped with speakers, and the same with tape machines. Probably most every amp and receiver made then was listened to. I base my conclusions on this, and that is a fact.
At least admission to the truth is given here. I appreciate that.
I do not know how the thing works, but I know the difference in power suppiles, THD, power ratings, and amp range.
But, to say that all avr's sound equal is incorrect, futhermore, no two makers use the same componts, - fact. Not all speakers are equal-fact - not all electronics are equal in materials or manufactering - fact. Not all avr's have the same features - fact. Now, tell me they all sound equal. Thanks for a stimulating discussion!
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:18 PM   #44  
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Different companies use different components. In fact, the same company may use different components in different lines. I suspect all companies have gone through significant changes in components and design over the last 40 years, yet somehow the sonic signatures haven't changed, according to your view. How is that possible?

I never said all AVRs sound the same. I said all properly functioning amplifiers operating within specs will sound the same. And I said advances in DACs mean people are unlikely to hear differences among them either these days. There are lots of ways that an AVR can be set to modify the sound. But, I simply question the notion that an Onkyo is brighter than a Denon or any other such baseline comparison.

btw, aren't you the same quad4.0 who rejected the use of Audyssey room correction in posts at AVS?

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Old 07-11-2013, 05:22 AM   #45  
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Before purchasing speakers for my garage 2.1 music system, one of the reviews recommended using "clean power" further elaborating that an entry level receiver will not properly power the speakers.

He was right, the crappy onkyo made the speakers sound not so good, but sounded pretty good with my denon, both rated around the same power output.

I still don't know what "clean power" means.
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