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New guy needs to be schooled! Looking for a surround system under $600

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Old 07-07-2013, 05:29 PM   #16  
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Originally Posted by quad4.0 View Post
Room correction has nothing to do with it. It's the amps that have very different and distinct sound.
I realize lots of people think amps sound different. But, if amps are operating correctly, they will sound the same. Room correction, on the other hand, actually can make a difference in how a system sounds and we know how it makes adjustments to produce those differences. What do you suppose accounts for differences in amplifiers when most experts agree that all properly functioning amps sound the same.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:09 PM   #17  
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The ultimate goal is an exact sound reproduction with no coloration at all but due to the nuances of speakers and electronic components not all speakers nor amps/avr sound the same - there is a different sound to tube vs transistor amps for instance. Many people who have a bright or colorful speaker set-up tend to go with a warmer sounding amp to offset it and vice-versa. At the end of the day you have to really be picky to start purchasing based on the sound coloration of your gear. Often with equalizer or bass treble controls one can flatten out the sound if they really try but most leave that alone.
Denon has a reputation for high end quality and solid builds. Good sound with basic features while onkyo as noted tends to have more features and a less sturdy build but there are exceptions in both lines. Some higher end integra/onkyo with toroidal amps and burr-brown dac sound great but some of the cirrus logic DAc models and traditional solid state ciruitry sound 'off' gor lack of a better word. For the newcomer spending $600 on a set-up he isn't going to be nitpicking to that level I suspect.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:51 PM   #18  
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Still waiting for someone to explain how one properly functioning amp will sound different another one. Just the amp, not the other components.
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:39 AM   #19  
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Still waiting for someone to explain how one properly functioning amp will sound different another one. Just the amp, not the other components.
the process of digital to analog conversion influences or colors the sound leaving less than an exact reproduction. The best analogy I can give is two singers both singing a note such ss middle C. Although it is the same note, it sounds different. If all amps sounded the same there wouldnt br such a wide price disparitu. I can absolutely hear the diff between my Onkyo 606 and 905. Different brand Dac and independent toroidal power supply - they def sound diff and also have a $1500 price tag diff.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:18 AM   #20  
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That reply is about the differences between DACs, not amplifiers. So, I am still waiting for an explanation about the differences between amps. Meanwhile, DACs have gotten so good, it's also unlikely that anyone can a difference between them either.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:44 AM   #21  
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That reply is about the differences between DACs, not amplifiers. So, I am still waiting for an explanation about the differences between amps. Meanwhile, DACs have gotten so good, it's also unlikely that anyone can a difference between them either.
when dealing with an AVR you're dealing with both the amp and any sort of signal processing. many are most definitely noticeable between brands as well as amplifiers go to a high end showroom and listen to a krell amp and then listen to a p.o.s amp and you will hear a difference
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:14 AM   #22  
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I'm confused. Is this discussion about differences in amps, DACs, or processing prior to the DAC and amplification stages? Each poster seems to be discussing different stages of the process.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:32 AM   #23  
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The op is looking for an AVR which has amps and DAC/ post processing but either can and do influence the characteristics of sound typically the higher up in quality the less noticable (less variation or coloring from neutral). More so in an AVR than just an amp as there are more variables. In either case the variations are there - subtle but there nonetheless and speaker pairings can add to or subtract from the colorations making certain pairings more pleasing than others at the end of the day it is all about personal preference.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:35 PM   #24  
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Perhaps you can explain how those interactions take place. Let's start with the definition of a warm sounding receiver and how the electronics produce a warm sound.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:46 PM   #25  
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Perhaps you can explain how those interactions take place. Let's start with the definition of a warm sounding receiver and how the electronics produce a warm sound.
Written explanations, are extremely difficult to put into words, My suggestions would be to bring a BR or CD to your local dealer that sells both AVR's and take a listen, if you can't determine the difference then it really doesn't matter, but most people can immediately hear the differences. further posting of verbal differences here is futile.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:55 PM   #26  
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Written explanations, are extremely difficult to put into words, My suggestions would be to bring a BR or CD to your local dealer that sells both AVR's and take a listen, if you can't determine the difference then it really doesn't matter, but most people can immediately hear the differences. further posting of verbal differences here is futile.
Rizz is certainly right on this one but perhaps this link can explain it somewhat

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...howtopic=73636
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:27 PM   #27  
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Well, this starts sounding like magic, or expectation bias, since these characteristics cannot be described and the causes cannot be explained. How about you try setting up a blind test with a Demon, an Onkyo, and a Marantz. See whether you can consistently identify which is which when you don't know which one you are hearing.

Last edited by BIslander; 07-08-2013 at 03:31 PM..
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:36 PM   #28  
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maybe this makes it simpler saying that all amps sound the same is it pretty much the same as saying all speaker sound the same which you know to be false but describing the sound of one speaker as compared to another is often difficult to put into words as well
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:21 PM   #29  
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It's important to be clear about the terms being used. An amp is an amplifier, not a receiver, and an amp's sole purpose is volume. The evidence strongly suggests that all amps being used within specs will sound the same. Speakers are different.

Receivers have all sorts of tools to color the sound and I do not doubt that the end user can make an AVR sound warm or bright or punchy, whatever those terms might mean. But, you are saying receivers from various manufacturers have sonic signatures that make them unidentifiable regardless of the fine tuning done by the end user. That I find hard to believe.

Last edited by BIslander; 07-08-2013 at 04:26 PM..
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:47 PM   #30  
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One way that an amp makes a huge difference is in dynamic headroom - the ability of the amp to near instantaneously change dramatically. One problem of most lesser costing (not 'cheap' but inexpensive) is poor dynamic headroonm the bass gets sloppy with sudden pitch changes or particularly in loud explosions.
Another issue is that amplifiers work on attenuation pulsing of signals and the accuracy (and precision) of those gates and filters that control that.
Getting back to the first point how quickly, in what manner and how many power states an amp goes through effects the end signal causing different variations of true sound.
I know that the toroidal power supply on my more expensive set-up intoduces less magnetic interference than a traditional power supply and is totally shielde from other components.
I can not scientifically and specifically list out equations that will prove my point but I guarantee you if you hooked up a tube amplifier, an onkyo amp, and a krell amp I could tell the difference in a blind test with 100% accuracy.
I have hooked up side by side on the same speakers my onkyo 606 and 906 and used the 'direct audio' setting which not only turns off all audio processing it also turns off video processing as well so as to not somehow artifact or influence the result (power draw maybe? IDK) and using an SPL meter to volume match to account for the diff in WPC as one model is rated 95wpc (RMS) and the other is 140wpc (RMS) the difference is noticable. The 606 sounds thin and strained at times while the 905 is much fuller. While I don't consider myself an audio snob I do consider myself an audiophile and listen to mostly lossless audio at 192/24 instead of the standard 44.1/16 and the variances between amplifiers is noticable on the same source material.
I understand there is a lot of snake oil out there and this is no 'monster cable' sounds better hocus - pocus. You shouls come to the gaming forum - few of us step out from there but there are some serious audio knowledgeable people in there like MASE and JR is a serious audio guy as well and thy may have more facts but will certainly back up the fact that all amplifers (pure amplifiers - power and volume providers) are not created equal. Maybe in theory but not in real world construction.
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