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At The Movies Reviews and Movie Discussion With SPOILERS A place to review movies in the theater that contain unmarked spoilers. CAUTION: THIS SUB-FORUM HAS REVIEWS THAT CONTAIN SPOILERS. Please note that reviews with spoilers should be posted here and not on the main At The Movies forum. Any review with spoilers unmarked posted in the main At The Movies forum will be removed or moved at the moderator's discretion.

Marlowe at the Cinema: MARVEL'S THE AVENGERS (Paramount/Marvel Studios) *SPOILERS

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Old 05-05-2012, 05:30 PM   #1  
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Default Marlowe at the Cinema: MARVEL'S THE AVENGERS (Paramount/Marvel Studios) *SPOILERS



WARNING: PERCEIVED PLOT SPOILERS BELOW.


Okay. Went to see this on opening night, as most of the U.S. did (last night), and have some thoughts about what was headlined as “one of the most influential and anticipated motion pictures perhaps since Titanic.”

First of all, the entire beginning was way too rushed – there was no explanation tying up the loose ends regarding Loki and Thor from the end of Thor, making Loki’s “arrival” on Earth a head-scratcher save for coming through the blue source of power from their home world; the notion of how Loki got there, what happened after Anthony Hopkins’ character saved Thor from falling into the vacuum of space like Loki did in the Thor film and other elements were hinted at in a brief conversation between Thor and Loki in The Avengers, but the entire opening sequence felt way too rushed and exploitation-heavy, making it feel as though Mr. Joss was simply in a big hurry to get all these characters to the screen without any detailed backstory time.

The next big problem was Mark Ruffalo as Bruce Banner – BIG, major mistake here. Not only can this guy not act, his performance here as Banner was as atrocious as Mr. Joss’ take on the legendary Marvel scientist searching for a way out of his gamma radiation problems. Ruffalo basically sleepwalks through his role as Banner, and the transformation scenes before he becomes Hulk did not include any glowing eyes a la the famous Bixby performances in the TV show, or even the semi-better motion picture version which featured Edward Norton. The CGI Hulk, once complete and in action, looked fine enough (much better than the joke that was Ang Lee’s variant) but Ruffalo’s transformation sequences were ridiculous, with him looking toward the rest of the Avengers at one point after Scarlett Johansson’s Black Widow character says “Doctor…I think it’s about time you got angry…” and saying back to her “That’s the problem, Agent Romanoff…I’m always angry…” while he suddenly transforms into the Hulk without really ripping out of any clothing. The entire “discovery of Banner” and hunting him down to get him into the Avengers fold was ridiculous and rushed too, really not touching on anything about Louis Leterrier’s Incredible Hulk or the ending he set up with Norton’s Banner in a rain forest somewhere. It was like Mr. Joss simply took new direction with most of these characters, ignoring some ties that came before that were ultimately hinting at an Avengers project. We are lead to believe Banner has been monitored the entire time by SHIELD, knowing his whereabouts – something “General Ross” and the government could never seem to do effectively – and is simply “called on” through a setup, where Black Widow (Johansson) is sent to “persuade” him to meet with Nick Fury (Samuel L. Jackson) because of the global threat posed by Loki. The whole thing didn’t enthrall me, and is not the way I would have done it – if you are going to do a sweeping character study like The Avengers, you need to do it right, even if the film takes four hours to do it (not taking into account studio budgetary constraints).

Then, there were the “issues” with Thor – as Loki is being transported as a prisoner of SHIELD in a plane, the god of thunder suddenly lands on one of the wings from the sky above, there to take Loki in himself. But this is ridiculous – what happened to the end of Thor when Chris Hemsworth’s character was talking to the gatekeeper about Earth being lost to them? Thor seemed more interested in knowing what became of Natalie Portman’s character at the end of that film, and yet The Avengers sets up the arrival of Thor as merely flying out of the sky and landing on the wing of this SHIELD plane – but what happened in all the time before that on their home world? How did he find Loki so fast, after his brother was presumed killed or lost when he fell into the space vacuum at the end of the Thor film? Again, the whole thing felt rushed and not thorough – further, I had issues with Thor’s “strength” in The Avengers, or, seemingly, the lack thereof. The god of thunder basically has his ass handed to him in not only the fight with Iron Man, but by Hulk (okay, that was acceptable) and some others throughout the film – not to say Thor doesn’t get his licks in, because he does (smashing Hulk with his hammer multiple times, kicking Stark’s ass a bit in their fight), but something seemed “different” about this Thor in The Avengers that made him seem less of a complete badass like in his own film.

As for Captain America? I thought he was one of the coolest in this film – his new costume devised by SHIELD looked great, Chris Evans was awesome in the role once again, and he kicked some ass on his own, first in his hand to hand combat with Loki in Germany, and then as one of the Avengers against Loki’s assembled alien army. Also, the sequence when Thor tries to come down on his shield with his hammer and learns the painful way how powerful Cap’s shield really is, was really cool. I didn’t have any issues with Cap in this.

That leaves Iron Man, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Nick Fury and Stellan Skarsgard’s character – what was ultimately wrong with Robert Downey Jr.’s Tony Stark/Iron Man performance in this? It seemed something was just “off” about his performance too, perhaps stemming from the lack of direction by Jon Favreau; I don’t know what it was, but Downey’s performance didn’t scream “Iron Man” like in his own films, and the whole Stark Tower in New York City thing again felt rushed and not explained enough. Suddenly, Stark has his own building in Manhattan (not that he couldn’t afford to build one fast) complete with a robotic suit up/suit off mechanism like in his California digs, and this just felt like a convenient setup by the filmmakers to tie in the culminating alien battle at the end which takes place in New York. There was a great deal of comedic banter between all the characters, of course again led by Downey’s sarcastic approach as the playboy billionaire, and that was refreshing, but there was something I just didn’t find awe-inspiring about the film as a whole, especially the beginning sequences.

Agent Barton (Hawkeye) played by Jeremy Renner and Agent Romanoff (Black Widow) get a lot of screen time here, and that was refreshing – Hawkeye in particular gets to kick some ass as he confidently shoots our alien visitors with laser guided arrows, plucking them off one at a time. There’s a subplot regarding Loki and his “enslaving” of Hawkeye and Dr. Selvig (Skarsgard) early on, but their spell is later broken and Hawkeye joins up as an Avenger to take on Loki’s evil army towards the end.

Then, there was the whole problem regarding the science of the film’s plot – most of the screen time is spent exploring the ways in which Banner, Stark and Fury can get together and close the portal Loki has opened, allowing his alien race he has hired to destroy Earth to come through, but at times the science they’re dabbling in gets so thick and convoluted, it’s difficult to follow what they’re talking about or what’s going on. We understand Banner is a scientist that has experimented with gamma radiation – supposedly what Loki’s blue-hued weapon is emitting in areas – but it’s suggested here that he is also some expert in the technology Stark has been dabbling in; the whole thing got confusing and off-putting after awhile.

We do get to see, finally, Nick Fury (Sam Jackson) in some gun-toiling action, which was cool, and the final sequence that finds our heroes in a duel in downtown New York with the race Loki has brought to Earth was definitely worth waiting for. CGI Hulk, in particular, was entertaining and sometimes awe-inspiring as he jumps around New York City, destroying it but smashing every single alien being in his way – including that huge snake-like thing we see in the trailers. Very cool. Then there was also the moment Stark puts Captain America in charge of telling them what they should all do as the aliens attack in NYC, and Cap gives them their positions and says to Hulk, “And Hulk – SMASH!” while the big green beastie smiles. That was definitely cool. But that also lends the question about Banner’s ability to control his alter ego, as hinted at in the comics and previous films – Ruffalo’s first transformation in The Avengers indicates he has no control over the Hulk, as he becomes the green monster and goes after Johansson’s Black Widow, trying to kill her. Later on, when he transforms to join the team in fighting Loki and his army, it’s clear he can control the monster as he quickly transforms into him, reacting to Cap’s instructions of “SMASH!” and being able to tell exactly who the enemy is. This was a bit confusing to me.

Tom Hiddleston was fantastic again as Loki, and the humorous exchange between him and some characters brought added relief to the dialogue, such as when Stark calls him “Reindeer Games” in an early fight scene between him, Loki and Cap (in reference to Loki’s horns of his costume) plus the line every fan was waiting for when Loki confronts Stark and proclaims “I have an army…” and Stark spits out “We have a Hulk…” Fantastic and goose bump-inducing.

If you haven’t seen The Avengers yet, don’t leave before ALL the credits are done rolling – we have teasers for what appears to be yet another attempt at bringing these characters back together again (it seems another alien race has been called upon to destroy and enslave Earth, even after the defeated alien leader of the ones that came on Loki’s behalf warns of human strength) as well as what I feel was a pointless gathering of the heroes in a final comedic scene. You’ll see what I’m talking about.

There was also the issue of all the team members going their separate ways at the very end, which was again not tied up very well, and ends up feeling rushed to make the 2:45 running time; Stark is seen driving off with Banner in one of Banner’s exotic cars, while Thor is charged with taking Loki back to their home world for punishment (which again begs the problem…if Loki is the mischievous god of magic and can do anything to disguise himself, how is it he is allowing Thor to just “arrest” him? And where exactly do they go?) and Cap zooms off on a motorcycle (fitting)…but has Banner suddenly fallen off General Ross’ radar now, no longer a fugitive of the U.S. army? Where is the connection between all of the Marvel films up to this point and their conclusions that have teased the Avengers initiative? The whole timeline doesn’t make sense; remember at the end of Louis Leterrier’s Incredible Hulk, Stark (Downey) finds Ross (William Hurt) sitting in a bar and tells him they’re “putting a team together”? Well, where does that fit in within the Avengers story? At the end of some of the Marvel films, it’s as if characters like Stark don’t know about Nick Fury’s Avengers initiative, while some films hint at the fact that he does – like in the aforementioned Hulk picture. Why this inconsistency?

It was also nice to see the latest uncut international trailers of Amazing Spider-Man and Dark Knight Rises before Avengers, promising to be one exciting summer at the theater, especially for comic fans. The fight sequences between Peter Parker and Lizard and Bruce Wayne and Bane look especially awesome. Of course, I’ll be buying Avengers on Blu, but I wasn’t really knocked out by it as I thought I would be. Of all the issues, though, Mark Ruffalo’s Banner was simply the worst decision made in the history of comic adaptation casting next to using Topher Grace as “Venom” in Spider-Man 3.

Let’s discuss Avengers!

Last edited by Peter Marlowe; 05-05-2012 at 07:43 PM..
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:36 PM   #2  
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Peter I always respect your opinion , but just what is wrong with you for posting a review full of so many spoilers for those of us who have not seen the movie yet ? How about some spoiler alert before giving away major plot points of the movie ? Have a care and think of others for a change please !

Last edited by bruceames; 05-05-2012 at 10:54 PM..
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:39 PM   #3  
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Originally Posted by 97XBAM View Post
Peter I always respect your opinion , but just what is wrong with you for posting a review full of so many spoilers for those of us who have not seen the movie yet ? How about some spoiler alert before giving away major plot points of the movie ? Have a care and think of others for a change please !
These were just my sentiments about the film's plot; I didn't see that I gave much of the plot points away beyond what the trailers and teasers have already given us. It was really meant as a discussion spot for those who HAVE seen the film, and then whom also care to share their feelings on it...

Regardless, I am adding a spoiler alert message to the top.

Edit: I don't necessarily care for the way in which you "attack" in your message above, either, Bam, and your remark regarding "have some care for others FOR A CHANGE" smacks of the way some "others" on this forum's membership roster behave and communicate...and that's simply not like you...I know it's not. Let's take it easy with the accusations, and not assume I'm after "not thinking of others" here, okay? Because that's simply not true; when plot reveals are explained to me as being too revealing and such, I make adjustments to either the main body of copy or I provide a warning, as I just did with Avengers.

Last edited by bruceames; 05-06-2012 at 06:23 PM..
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Old 05-05-2012, 08:40 PM   #4  
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I couldn't disagree with you more about Mark Ruffalo's portrayal of Bruce Banner. I thought him easily the best of the bunch of actors who have portrayed him.

SPOILER ALERT - There ARE plot spoilers in this response to Peter Marlowe's review:

As for your questions about Thor's showing up on Earth - Loki answered that one when he questioned Thor, asking him, "How much power did Odin use up to send you here?" Also, the Tesseract of Odin was the only way Thor could get back. This was also addressed by Loki, when, following up on his question, he said something to the effect of, "Probably so much power that you now need the Tesseract to get back." I, for one, completely believe that Thor can possess the means to subdue Loki - they are from the same realm, after all.

I do agree with your point about the Hulk's inconsistent behavior in the film. It was a bit confusing to see him attempting to kill the Black Widow and then later reveal that he can, indeed, control his changes. To make a correction to your review, Black Widow asked Banner a few times about his ability to control his anger. In the scene referenced in your review, Banner is responding to Black Widow, stating, "You really want to know my secret? You want to know how I control my anger? I'm always angry!" That ties in really well with the last shots of The Incredible Hulk film, when Edward Norton is in some isolated cabin in a remote northern location and appears to be working on controlling the changes. (The rain forest scene you mention happened at the end of Hulk, with Eric Bana).
As to the science of Stark and Banner working together, they were not attempting to close the portal while in the SHIELD helicarrier, they were attempting to locate the Tesseract while Stark was also hacking into the SHIELD computers. Banner was brought to SHIELD in part because of his expertise in Gamma radiation, which does help to track down the Tesseract.
Oh, and the scene after the credits is of the same alien leader informing a supreme leader about the failed attempt. Long-time fans of the Avengers and of Jim Starlin's work will recognize the supreme leader. I won't mention names, but suffice to say that this being is really enamored with death.
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Old 05-05-2012, 10:05 PM   #5  
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I couldn't disagree with you more about Mark Ruffalo's portrayal of Bruce Banner. I thought him easily the best of the bunch of actors who have portrayed him.
Well, we will just have to agree to disagree there -- from all my global friends who are diehard Hulk comic fanatics and who communicated with me after they saw the film (international locations got it prior to the U.S.), I was actually the only one NOT so passionate compared to them regarding just how god-awful Ruffalo was in this role. Taking his odd manerisms out of the equation for a minute and the fact that I think he's an awful actor to begin with -- his performance simply doesn't mimic, in the least bit, any of the character's "language" throughout the classic run of the book. Further, as far as comparing him to other actors to play this character, I am of the firm belief that Norton simply filled this role better -- from the gawky, gangly look with the glasses to the way his eyes glowed during the transformation sequences. That's not to say I thought Norton was RIGHT for it -- but just slightly better. At the end of the day, I've said this before, and I'll say it again: NO ONE has gotten this character right yet, from Eric Bana to Ed Norton and now to Mark Ruffalo.

There's NO WAY I would ever consider Ruffalo right for this role.

Quote:
As for your questions about Thor's showing up on Earth - Loki answered that one when he questioned Thor, asking him, "How much power did Odin use up to send you here?"
I could be mistaken, but I believe I did mention that this exchange of dialogue was hinted at in the film within my body copy; regardless, I appreciate your explanation of some of the areas which I didn't quite "get" in the realm of the Marvel world -- still, in an overall sense, I don't think any of these areas were fleshed out or explained in good enough detail. It feels like Joss simply slapped the storyline, in certain places, together to rush the plot along and get it going to fit within the 2:40 time frame. I understand there are length and budget restraints from the studios, but this was a major undertaking for a studio and filmmaker -- something that should have been given more screen time.

Quote:
Also, the Tesseract of Odin was the only way Thor could get back. This was also addressed by Loki, when, following up on his question, he said something to the effect of, "Probably so much power that you now need the Tesseract to get back." I, for one, completely believe that Thor can possess the means to subdue Loki - they are from the same realm, after all.
I totally get that your aforementioned explanation of how these characters traveled to Earth in this film from their home planet justifies their presence -- I just think this should have been better fleshed out with imagery connecting from the end of the Thor film. As I have always said, I understand and accept that filmmakers have budgetary and length restraints from the studios, but in an undertaking such as this, where so much is at stake plot-wise, it's vital to get all the ends tied up and right -- if need be, I'd go to a studio and lay this all out of them, and even ask for a running time of four hours if necessary to explain the entire thing correctly; it was done for films like Gods and Generals, and Avengers could have definitely benefitted from much more detailed sequences.

Further, with regard to the "Thor subduing Loki" aspect you delve into, I had a big problem with the way Loki was merely "dealt with" at the end -- are we to believe this major global threat, a master of magic who is dangerous beyond definition of the term, is merely going to "go quietly into the night" with Thor where he'll be "dealt with"? What's to stop him from "throwing his holographic image around" once again to trick him?

I simply didn't buy it.

Quote:
I do agree with your point about the Hulk's inconsistent behavior in the film. It was a bit confusing to see him attempting to kill the Black Widow and then later reveal that he can, indeed, control his changes.
Indeed; I was passionately disappointed with that. But, it's been hinted at before that Banner may in fact tap into ways to control the alter ego -- even Norton's portrayal of Banner in Leterrier's film when he's about to jump out of the plane to confront Abomination hints at this.

Quote:
To make a correction to your review, Black Widow asked Banner a few times about his ability to control his anger.
Yes, that's true; so much so it got annoying at times (the banter between them about him controlling "the other guy" and such); but where did you find a need to correct me on that? I don't think I even mentioned it in the original piece...

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In the scene referenced in your review, Banner is responding to Black Widow, stating, "You really want to know my secret? You want to know how I control my anger? I'm always angry!"
You mean when he arrives on the scooter in New York, and is about to transform into Hulk? If so, I wasn't exactly sure that my quote was verbatim; you're more than likely right about that line spoken by Ruffalo -- however, I thought it ridiculous how he transforms almost instantly without shredding any clothes in that scene, and furthermore, find it a bit strange that he claims he "controls his anger" by "being angry all the time."

Quote:
That ties in really well with the last shots of The Incredible Hulk film, when Edward Norton is in some isolated cabin in a remote northern location and appears to be working on controlling the changes. (The rain forest scene you mention happened at the end of Hulk, with Eric Bana).
I may have gotten the conclusions of the two films mixed up -- I recall Norton's character sitting in the isolated cabin, Indian style, doing his breathing exercises to control the changes, but I didn't recall that being in a northern wilderness. You're more than likely right; at any rate, I just didn't buy the way they introduced Banner in this film, in that it seemed excessively rushed and hurried to the point they simply "located" him and ignored the entire U.S. government searches that came before it (the whole General Ross angle).

Quote:
As to the science of Stark and Banner working together, they were not attempting to close the portal while in the SHIELD helicarrier, they were attempting to locate the Tesseract while Stark was also hacking into the SHIELD computers. Banner was brought to SHIELD in part because of his expertise in Gamma radiation, which does help to track down the Tesseract.
My point about the Tesseract and Loki's portal was that the essence of the Avengers initiative in the film was to close that thing and get rid of the attacking army; I was merely pointing out that the science at certain points became too thick and heady to enjoy or follow. The sequences aboard the hellicarrier came to mind when all the characters begin to argue with one another -- also, I pointed out that Banner's experience with gamma radiation was a reason he was tapped, in that the Tesseract emitted this in certain areas...

Quote:
Oh, and the scene after the credits is of the same alien leader informing a supreme leader about the failed attempt. Long-time fans of the Avengers and of Jim Starlin's work will recognize the supreme leader. I won't mention names, but suffice to say that this being is really enamored with death.
Okay, so, did it set up a sequel to this in your opinion? If so, is the same alien race going to come for a conquest of Earth? Why would they even bother, based on how the Avengers kicked their asses, so to speak?

Last edited by Peter Marlowe; 05-05-2012 at 10:10 PM..
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Old 05-06-2012, 05:02 PM   #6  
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Okay, so, did it set up a sequel to this in your opinion? If so, is the same alien race going to come for a conquest of Earth? Why would they even bother, based on how the Avengers kicked their asses, so to speak?
This alien race were mere pawns to this supreme leader. I use the term "supreme leader" so as not to reveal the identity, thus making it a serious spoiler - this is one development that the die-hard, long-time Marvel fans will find really great. But this being is more interested in universal conquest, not just earthly conquest - that is why he used Loki as a front man to obtain the Tesseract and conquer the planet. But now that the Tesseract is in Asgard, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that this being would somehow go into Asgard in some manner and try to obtain it. This "supreme being" literally will court death, in a romantic sense, and thinks nothing of blowing up entire galaxies to win her favor.
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Old 05-06-2012, 09:22 PM   #7  
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Okay, air,

I rewatched Louis Leterrier's Incredible Hulk last night on Blu, and you were correct -- at the very end, we see Norton (Banner) running through an open plain in BRITISH COLUMBIA (the northern location you cited) where he eventually is seen attempting to control the transformations with the breathing exercises, until his eyes are depicted changing and he gives a wicked smile, as if he is somewhat "happy" that the change is taking place...

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Originally Posted by airickess View Post
This alien race were mere pawns to this supreme leader. I use the term "supreme leader" so as not to reveal the identity, thus making it a serious spoiler - this is one development that the die-hard, long-time Marvel fans will find really great. But this being is more interested in universal conquest, not just earthly conquest - that is why he used Loki as a front man to obtain the Tesseract and conquer the planet. But now that the Tesseract is in Asgard, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that this being would somehow go into Asgard in some manner and try to obtain it. This "supreme being" literally will court death, in a romantic sense, and thinks nothing of blowing up entire galaxies to win her favor.
I see; very interesting analysis and information. I suppose we'll have to see what a sequel brings...

Is this "supreme leader" you mention the "Leader" from the Hulk books by any chance -- the being with the massive cranium?
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Old 05-06-2012, 09:28 PM   #8  
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Also -- my wife and I were discussing how cool it would have been if rather than the final "diner" teaser which took place after the final credits, a scene depicting perhaps Thor getting Clark Gregg's character (Agent Coulson) back to his home world, where he could perhaps bring him back to life somehow...that would have been much more exciting than what they went with in that final clip...
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Old 05-07-2012, 07:47 AM   #9  
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Peter TMI, consider others who have yet to see this film !

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Also -- my wife and I were discussing how cool it would have been if rather than the final "diner" teaser which took place after the final credits, a scene depicting perhaps Thor getting Clark Gregg's character (Agent Coulson) back to his home world, where he could perhaps bring him back to life somehow...that would have been much more exciting than what they went with in that final clip...
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:05 AM   #10  
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My apologies to everyone who may have been disrupted or upset by the potential spoilers here; it was not my intention to ruin the experience -- I was merely caught up in discussing the film with others who have seen it (BAM, rick); I hope the spoiler warnings in the beginning of the thread will suffice...
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