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Definitive Thread Concerning Splitters/Combiners?

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Old 02-09-2018, 07:32 AM   #1
Sev
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Question Definitive Thread Concerning Splitters/Combiners?

Is there specific thread giving an in depth explanation on splitters/combiners?
I have been looking about and have not come up with anything.
I know there is a lot info scattered about. I am looking for something consolidated.

If somebody could point me to some comprehensive information that would be great.
Or a specific page on the net.

I require some clarification on when and what type of splitters should be used and not be used under given circumstances.

Also looking for information concerning which splitters within a given companies line are considered the best quality where factors such as insertion loss and noise are concerned.

Are there any there any threads concerning testing of splitters using spectrum analyzers.

Rabbit73 has been nice enough share some testing he has done.
Which I greatly appreciate.

The reason I am asking this is that I am going to trying various combinations of antenna's including separate VFH Hi and Lo along with separate dedicated preamps for the VHF and UHF sides.

Thank you.
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:14 AM   #2
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Unfortunately, there is no 'dedicated' thread re: Splitters/combiners etc. Sorry.
Monoprice.com used to have some helpful descriptions on their site
www.monoprice.com
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:28 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImRizzo View Post
Unfortunately, there is no 'dedicated' thread re: Splitters/combiners etc. Sorry.
Monoprice.com used to have some helpful descriptions on their site
www.monoprice.com
Not anymore that I can see.
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Old 02-09-2018, 01:17 PM   #4
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Channel Master has a pretty good page on splitter loss.
https://support.channelmaster.com/hc...gh-A-Splitter-
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Old 02-09-2018, 04:37 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by RF Steve View Post
Channel Master has a pretty good page on splitter loss.
https://support.channelmaster.com/hc...gh-A-Splitter-
Thanks Steve.
Good info.

What I am looking for though is which splitters are of better quality and will degrade the signal quality and strength the least.

As well as propper application there of.
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Old 02-11-2018, 08:48 AM   #6
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Lets look at it this way.
I was just introduced to Dx'ing. Looking to optimize the antenna system.

As mentioned in another thread I will be modding a HD8200U to power the VHF and UHF separately.

I will either combine behind the preamps or behind their power sources.

Also.

I will be stacking a VHF-Lo, VHF-Hi, And two yagi's or 2 DB8e's.
I am switching out all the circuit boards with ferrite Channel Master baluns that were used on the old 4228's and 4251's.

I will be powering the the VHF and UHF antenna's with separate preamps.
I have a Winegard AP-3700 for the VHF side and an AP-3800 for the UHF side.

I was planning on running 2 drops inside the house and combining behind the preamp power sources using a UVSJ combiner.

I was planning on using a Blonder Tongue ZHLSJ in front of the preamp for the VHF antenna's

My uncertainty begins as to when it is appropriate to use splitters with power pass, bi-directional, passive and full band.

I am also having difficulty finding information on which devices are the most efficient.
From what I gather. Blonder Tongue and Holland are the best quality.
Followed by the old Macom. Then Pico-Macon and Tru-spec.


Ergo why I am looking for some clarification on both what components should be used for the above installations and why.
As well as what components have actually been tested by members or elsewhere and been determined to be the most efficient and creating the least amount of noise and loss.
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Old 02-11-2018, 09:56 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sev View Post
Lets look at it this way.
I was just introduced to Dx'ing. Looking to optimize the antenna system.

As mentioned in another thread I will be modding a HD8200U to power the VHF and UHF separately.

I will either combine behind the preamps or behind their power sources.

Also.

I will be stacking a VHF-Lo, VHF-Hi, And two yagi's or 2 DB8e's.
I am switching out all the circuit boards with ferrite Channel Master baluns that were used on the old 4228's and 4251's.

I will be powering the the VHF and UHF antenna's with separate preamps.
I have a Winegard AP-3700 for the VHF side and an AP-3800 for the UHF side.

I was planning on running 2 drops inside the house and combining behind the preamp power sources using a UVSJ combiner.

I was planning on using a Blonder Tongue ZHLSJ in front of the preamp for the VHF antenna's

My uncertainty begins as to when it is appropriate to use splitters with power pass, bi-directional, passive and full band.

I am also having difficulty finding information on which devices are the most efficient.
From what I gather. Blonder Tongue and Holland are the best quality.
Followed by the old Macom. Then Pico-Macon and Tru-spec.


Ergo why I am looking for some clarification on both what components should be used for the above installations and why.
As well as what components have actually been tested by members or elsewhere and been determined to be the most efficient and creating the least amount of noise and loss.
This Sev has what I call antenna syndrome. So obsessed with over the air that they will spend hours and hours online, spending lots of time and money trying to put together some sort of ultimate antenna system. If the signal is not at the antenna you won't get dick. You have already spent enough money that you could of paid the cable or sat bill for several years.
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Old 02-11-2018, 10:37 AM   #8
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It's important not to confuse a splitter with a UVSJ or a HLSJ. They look alike, but they are very different.

A splitter passes all three TV bands, VHF-Low, VHF-High, and UHF. It is usually used to divide all bands in two to feed two TVs, but it can also be used in reverse to combine all bands from two sources, as from two antennas.

A UVSJ (UHF-VHF-Separator-Joiner) and a HLSJ are more properly called diplexers. The prefix di indicates that two bands are being separated or joined.

Quote:
I was planning on running 2 drops inside the house and combining behind the preamp power sources using a UVSJ combiner.
Quote:
My uncertainty begins as to when it is appropriate to use splitters with power pass, bi-directional, passive and full band.
There is no need for a splitter in your plan, power passing or not. You just need diplexers.
Quote:
I am also having difficulty finding information on which devices are the most efficient.
From what I gather. Blonder Tongue and Holland are the best quality.
Followed by the old Macom. Then Pico-Macon and Tru-spec.
The differences in insertion loss of diplexers are very small from brand to brand, but it can be important to a DXer.

You also must pay attention to balun losses. Conventional all-band ferrite core baluns like the CM-94444 have more insertion loss at some frequencies than others. When I designed a 4-bay bowtie antenna for max gain on channel 15, I tried 21 different baluns and found that the insertion loss difference between the best and the worse was 4 dB. The lowest loss balun is a half-wave coaxial balun, but it is only good for one band and is difficult to construct.

You also must consider the noise figure of the preamp. The NF of the preamp directly subtracts from the antenna gain, as does the balun loss. The low NF preamps like the KT-200 are more sensitive to static damage; that is the trade-off, but the internal static-protection devices have improved.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 02-11-2018 at 05:14 PM.. Reason: corrected balun number
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Old 02-11-2018, 10:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVantenna Man View Post
This Sev has what I call antenna syndrome. So obsessed with over the air that they will spend hours and hours online, spending lots of time and money trying to put together some sort of ultimate antenna system. If the signal is not at the antenna you won't get dick. You have already spent enough money that you could of paid the cable or sat bill for several years.
Yes, it can be an obsession. It is important to keep in mind that OTA signals constantly vary in strength. I have seen a difference of over 10 dB in 30 minutes, which is a lot more than the fraction of a dB differences you are concerned about.
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Old 02-11-2018, 11:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Yes, it can be an obsession. It is important to keep in mind that OTA signals constantly vary in strength. I have seen a difference of over 10 dB in 30 minutes, which is a lot more than the fraction of a dB differences you are concerned about.
I have run into people like this Sev before. Sev will never be satisfied, always looking for a antenna with more gain or a uvsj with a little bit less loss. It is a complete waste of everyones time.
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Old 02-11-2018, 11:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVantenna Man View Post
This Sev has what I call antenna syndrome. So obsessed with over the air that they will spend hours and hours online, spending lots of time and money trying to put together some sort of ultimate antenna system. If the signal is not at the antenna you won't get dick. You have already spent enough money that you could of paid the cable or sat bill for several years.
LOL.
I am also doing a little DX'ing.

I have spent far less on antennas and components than I ever spent in a couple of months on Sat. 60.00 bucks here and 20.bucks there for an antenna is not all that expensive. Another 100 bucks for baluns, preamps and combiners.
Doesnt add up to 3 months of Sat so far.
Then of course there is the money being saved by cutting the cord and streaming over the net.

It is far less expensive than spending 2000.00 a pop on the pool cues I used to have custom built.
So it is all relative.

So far its a far cheaper hobby than others I have had.
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Old 02-11-2018, 12:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVantenna Man View Post
I have run into people like this Sev before. Sev will never be satisfied, always looking for a antenna with more gain or a uvsj with a little bit less loss. It is a complete waste of everyones time.
My man.
I have really just begun playing around with antenna's this past year or so.
So attempting to gather components that will bring the best results is not unreasonable.
The other thing is to avoid wasting money on the wrong components.
Have proper knowledge will limit this.

Oh by the way I also picked up a nested tilt tower for 100 bucks. So you add another month against the 109.00 a month I used spend on Sat.

I am in a geographically challenged location.
And yet have managed to reach out and touch around 73 stations.

So my question to you is.
Do you have anything constructive to add?
Or are you here merely to disparage reasonable requests for information?
Pamajestic and rabbit73 like this.

Last edited by Sev; 02-11-2018 at 12:22 PM..
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Old 02-11-2018, 01:21 PM   #13
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I love to make TV signal and antenna measurements. I only NEED one signal level meter, but I have four. I don't think I have wasted any money on my antenna experiments because I have learned something from every one.

I'm now 84, and have been doing antenna experiments since I was 8.

Life is short; you have to follow your passion and do what you love to do. There is no second chance.
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sev View Post
My man.
I have really just begun playing around with antenna's this past year or so.
So attempting to gather components that will bring the best results is not unreasonable.
The other thing is to avoid wasting money on the wrong components.
Have proper knowledge will limit this.

Oh by the way I also picked up a nested tilt tower for 100 bucks. So you add another month against the 109.00 a month I used spend on Sat.

I am in a geographically challenged location.
And yet have managed to reach out and touch around 73 stations.

So my question to you is.
Do you have anything constructive to add?
Or are you here merely to disparage reasonable requests for information?
Horse Hockey Someone is blowing smoke on this thread and its not me.
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Old 02-11-2018, 03:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
It's important not to confuse a splitter with a UVSJ or a HLSJ. They look alike, but they are very different.

A splitter passes all three TV bands, VHF-Low, VHF-High, and UHF. It is usually used to divide all bands in two to feed two TVs, but it can also be used in reverse to combine all bands from two sources, as from two antennas.

A UVSJ (UHF-VHF-Separator-Joiner) and a HLSJ are more properly called diplexers. The prefix di indicates that two bands are being separated or joined.


There is no need for a splitter in your plan, power passing or not. You just need diplexers.
The differences in insertion loss of diplexers are very small from brand to brand, but it can be important to a DXer.

You also must pay attention to balun losses. Conventional all-band ferrite core baluns like the CM94444 have more insertion loss at some frequencies than others. When I designed a 4-bay bowtie antenna for max gain on channel 15, I tried 21 different baluns and found that the insertion loss difference between the best and the worse was 4 dB. The lowest loss balun is a half-wave coaxial balun, but it is only good for one band and is difficult to construct.

You also must consider the noise figure of the preamp. The NF of the preamp directly subtracts from the antenna gain, as does the balun loss. The low NF preamps like the KT-200 are more sensitive to static damage; that is the trade-off, but the internal static-protection devices have improved.
Which baluns proved to have the least insertion loss?

Also if I am amplifying 2 DB8e's or yagi's. Do I not need a full spectrum power passing splitter/joiner?
Would the return be power passing or passive?

Last edited by Sev; 02-11-2018 at 06:08 PM..
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