High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
Rules HDTV Forum Gallery LINK TO US! RSS - High Def Forum AddThis Feed Button AddThis Social Bookmark Button Groups

Local HDTV Info and Reception Learn about your local HDTV stations, availability, reception issues, OTA antennas and any other local issues.

Like Tree17Likes

Solid Signal Own Brand

Reply
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-26-2016, 03:08 PM   #76  
Sev
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by projectsho89 View Post
If your budget permits, get a rotor intended for amateur radio (ham) operators.
That is what I was thinking.
I have been looking at some of the old Alliance models for sale out there.
Of course finding a rain boot for them may be problematical.
Unless somebody has a line on some?
Sev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2016, 07:50 PM   #77  
Pete
 
Pete Higgins's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: California, 58 miles @112 degrees from Mt. Wilson
Posts: 265
Default

Sev,

I’m not a big fan of the current crop of 3-wire TV rotors. I bought the NTE ECG U-106 because the literature said “Digital display indicates antenna position during operation” & “Pre-set to 12 TV/FM station directions for automatic antenna positioning”. What I didn’t pick up on was that the bearing readout was a 2-digit display. North is 00 or 36, east is 09, south is 18 and west is 27. My street is aligned with True North and my house sits squarely on the lot facing east so visually it’s easy to determine array alignment. Even after a fresh calibration, manually turning the rotor to display “18” can have me pointing somewhere between ~175 & ~185. Fortunately, if you “bump align” for max SNR and memorize the location to a pushbutton it seems to return to that location –at least until it goes out of calibration.

3-wire rotors use AC synchronous motors that run at a predictable speed, and the control box simply runs the motor for the amount of time needed to turn the antenna from where the controller thinks it is to where the controller wants it to be. Over time, the position error grows.

Also, we get some pretty strong winds in my area (40 – 60 mph). It’s not uncommon after heavy winds to find my antennas pointing in a much different direction than the display registers. Again, this is because of the lack of a break in the U-106 and the fact that it is a three wire rotor that uses a timing circuit instead of positive feedback for calibration.

I also have a Radio Shack 15-1220 that is a 5-wire rotor and uses a balanced bridge for exact positioning. In the 50 years I’ve used it; it has never gone out of alignment. It also seems to produce more turning torque than the U-106. The accompanying control box displays ‘N’ at the top & ‘S’ – ‘S’ at either end of rotation. Being an old flyer, that fits the way I think.

I also have an RCA 10W707S that is almost identical to the Radio Shack 15-1220. Motor unit is exactly the same and control box looks identical except it displays ‘S’ at the top and ‘N’ – ‘N’ at either end of rotation. The one drawback is the directional calibration. Tic marks on both rotors are 4.5 deg. apart. When aiming towards a “True” heading, I can visualize the heading with respect to true north and align the knob pretty close. Degrees, with respect to true south, –not so much. Other than control panel screening & branding, they really are identical.)

I would recommend one of the lower cost Amateur Radio rotors if you can afford it. 5 or more control wires implies positive feedback and most have a break or worm gear drive to hold your antenna array steady.
Pete Higgins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2016, 07:30 AM   #78  
Sev
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Higgins View Post
Sev,

I’m not a big fan of the current crop of 3-wire TV rotors. I bought the NTE ECG U-106 because the literature said “Digital display indicates antenna position during operation” & “Pre-set to 12 TV/FM station directions for automatic antenna positioning”. What I didn’t pick up on was that the bearing readout was a 2-digit display. North is 00 or 36, east is 09, south is 18 and west is 27. My street is aligned with True North and my house sits squarely on the lot facing east so visually it’s easy to determine array alignment. Even after a fresh calibration, manually turning the rotor to display “18” can have me pointing somewhere between ~175 & ~185. Fortunately, if you “bump align” for max SNR and memorize the location to a pushbutton it seems to return to that location –at least until it goes out of calibration.

3-wire rotors use AC synchronous motors that run at a predictable speed, and the control box simply runs the motor for the amount of time needed to turn the antenna from where the controller thinks it is to where the controller wants it to be. Over time, the position error grows.

Also, we get some pretty strong winds in my area (40 – 60 mph). It’s not uncommon after heavy winds to find my antennas pointing in a much different direction than the display registers. Again, this is because of the lack of a break in the U-106 and the fact that it is a three wire rotor that uses a timing circuit instead of positive feedback for calibration.

I also have a Radio Shack 15-1220 that is a 5-wire rotor and uses a balanced bridge for exact positioning. In the 50 years I’ve used it; it has never gone out of alignment. It also seems to produce more turning torque than the U-106. The accompanying control box displays ‘N’ at the top & ‘S’ – ‘S’ at either end of rotation. Being an old flyer, that fits the way I think.

I also have an RCA 10W707S that is almost identical to the Radio Shack 15-1220. Motor unit is exactly the same and control box looks identical except it displays ‘S’ at the top and ‘N’ – ‘N’ at either end of rotation. The one drawback is the directional calibration. Tic marks on both rotors are 4.5 deg. apart. When aiming towards a “True” heading, I can visualize the heading with respect to true north and align the knob pretty close. Degrees, with respect to true south, –not so much. Other than control panel screening & branding, they really are identical.)

I would recommend one of the lower cost Amateur Radio rotors if you can afford it. 5 or more control wires implies positive feedback and most have a break or worm gear drive to hold your antenna array steady.
Thanks Pete.
Much appreciated.

I will look into those. It is all in the bugeting.

I came across an old Tristao Mfg Co.Model HD T471 crank up tilt tower. 44 feet with a couple spare sections. It has amateur radio rotor. It is out of state so I wont be able to look at it for a couple weeks. Hopefully it will still be there. I might be able to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
Have to discuss pricing as of yet.
Hopefully the longer it sits the less he will want for it.
It looks like it has seen better days but still serviceable.



Right now I am runing a relatively small old realistic antenna I picked up for a song for testing purposes. I installed an RCA preamp.
It is currently attached to a telephone pole and about 25' off the groud.
Not a great setup at the moment to be sure.

I am on a slope. When I stand at that location where I want to install a tower. I am aligned with and at the eye height of body of my current antenna. So with a 44 foot tower, I will effectively gain about 70 feet in elevation.

I am hemmed in on the north and south by close tall hills.
However, the east and west traveling valley just so happens to be aligned perfectly for transmition towers. According to TV fool everything I am getting is edge 1 and 2.
The thing is I am grabbing decent signal from 100 miles out in Noxville.
I believe my elevation my be better than indicated by TVfool.

I pick up over 70 channels when using my Avermedia stick. Some of the closer ones are coming in with 100% according to the meters on the stick and my Samsung.

My main transmission towers are only between 4 and 7miles away.
Unfortunately, the FOX transmitter is about 60 feet lower than the rest of the transmitters. Making it problematical to get. Funny thing is I thought I would not see the station once the leaves came out. Now I get about 60% signal strength and the Knoxville stations are still registering.

So based on another discussion I had. After stating, I was looking into an HD8200U. It was suggested I go with a Wingard HD7698P and stack DB8-E if the later would not bring in FOX better.
However, I think the price point is to high on the DB8-E. So I am going to go with a DB8. If and when the time comes.
Though I have considered stacking 2 of the HD7698P's.

In any case. Your descriptions of how you connected your various antenna's together and some of the solutions you came up with has helped clarify the process quite a bit.
Sev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2016, 10:01 AM   #79  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 
Terryl3's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Deep in the Duraflame National Forest
Posts: 1,537
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sev View Post
Thanks Pete.
Much appreciated.

I will look into those. It is all in the bugeting.

I came across an old Tristao Mfg Co.Model HD T471 crank up tilt tower. 44 feet with a couple spare sections. It has amateur radio rotor. It is out of state so I wont be able to look at it for a couple weeks. Hopefully it will still be there. I might be able to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
Have to discuss pricing as of yet.
Hopefully the longer it sits the less he will want for it.
It looks like it has seen better days but still serviceable.



Right now I am runing a relatively small old realistic antenna I picked up for a song for testing purposes. I installed an RCA preamp.
It is currently attached to a telephone pole and about 25' off the groud.
Not a great setup at the moment to be sure.

I am on a slope. When I stand at that location where I want to install a tower. I am aligned with and at the eye height of body of my current antenna. So with a 44 foot tower, I will effectively gain about 70 feet in elevation.

I am hemmed in on the north and south by close tall hills.
However, the east and west traveling valley just so happens to be aligned perfectly for transmition towers. According to TV fool everything I am getting is edge 1 and 2.
The thing is I am grabbing decent signal from 100 miles out in Noxville.
I believe my elevation my be better than indicated by TVfool.

I pick up over 70 channels when using my Avermedia stick. Some of the closer ones are coming in with 100% according to the meters on the stick and my Samsung.

My main transmission towers are only between 4 and 7miles away.
Unfortunately, the FOX transmitter is about 60 feet lower than the rest of the transmitters. Making it problematical to get. Funny thing is I thought I would not see the station once the leaves came out. Now I get about 60% signal strength and the Knoxville stations are still registering.

So based on another discussion I had. After stating, I was looking into an HD8200U. It was suggested I go with a Wingard HD7698P and stack DB8-E if the later would not bring in FOX better.
However, I think the price point is to high on the DB8-E. So I am going to go with a DB8. If and when the time comes.
Though I have considered stacking 2 of the HD7698P's.

In any case. Your descriptions of how you connected your various antenna's together and some of the solutions you came up with has helped clarify the process quite a bit.
Hummmm...That tower looks to be well past it's safe service life, if I were you I would get someone like a professional welder to look it over and see if there are any cracks in any of the welds in any of the sections.

And that section with the crank looks to be slightly bent out of shape, once bent they should not even be used, even if they look straight after a rebuild they can't be trusted.

In my professional opinion as a free standing tower I would not trust it, with some reinforcement as a guyed tower maybe.

The rotor may be serviceable, they can be rebuilt.
Terryl3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-27-2016, 11:17 AM   #80  
Sev
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terryl3 View Post
Hummmm...That tower looks to be well past it's safe service life, if I were you I would get someone like a professional welder to look it over and see if there are any cracks in any of the welds in any of the sections.

And that section with the crank looks to be slightly bent out of shape, once bent they should not even be used, even if they look straight after a rebuild they can't be trusted.

In my professional opinion as a free standing tower I would not trust it, with some reinforcement as a guyed tower maybe.

The rotor may be serviceable, they can be rebuilt.
I agree with giving it a good look over Terry. Fatigued metal is never a good thing.
I am a contractor and have been around a lot welding over the years. Though not a welder myself. So I have a good idea of what I should be looking for.

I figured the damaged pieces would be good for growing string beans and cucumber.
Sev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2016, 05:53 PM   #81  
Sev
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Higgins View Post
IDRick & All,

Today I ran a simple test to try & correlate SNR with changes (increase) in signal strength. First, I aimed the antenna at San Diego and then I replaced the amplifier and power inserter with F-81 F-F barrels. The unamplified cable length approaches 200’ so I had to use the stronger San Diego UHF stations to even be able to run this test.

Next, I installed an empty Hauppauge database (C:>Users>Public>WinTV>Channel Database>hcwChanDB_5.mdb) to limit my test channels to just what was received today. I scanned in the channels with my HVR-1800 tuner to add them to the empty database and then used my Software Defined Radio (SDR) spectrum analyzer to sweep and log the unamplified signal strengths. Next, I recorded the Hauppauge Signal Monitor SNR’s for each channel.

Once I’d collected all the unamplified data, I swapped the F-81 F-F barrels for a PCT MA2-M +15 dB amplifier and power inserter. I rescanned to see if the amp would give me any more channels.

This Excel graphic displays the recorded signal strengths and corresponding SNR data.


High VHF channel 7 (from LA) was received on both tests and showed a +4.5 dB change in SNR with a +10.5 dB increase in signal strength due to adding the amplifier.

High VHF

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4AM...it?usp=sharing

UHF was a mixed bag and seems support my impression that at least with my 1 & 2-Edge signals I can’t see a direct correlation between artificially increasing signal strength and Signal-to-Noise Ratio.

Channel 18 (51.1 KUSI) actually showed a better SNR value unamplified (20.9 unamplified to 17.8 amplified). This is probably because it is adjacent to channel 19 (69.1-3 KSWB) which just booms in from San Diego. Unamplified channel 19 had an SNR of 29.8 (my SNR meter maxes out @ 30) and of course the amplified SNR value only appeared to improved .2 dB because of that meter limitation. Channel 26 (24.1-4 KVCR) is 3.5 miles out my back door and even with the antenna pointed 123 deg. away from it, it still booms in. Notice that adding the amplifier reduced the SNR by .6 dB even though the signal strength improved by 10 dB. The very weak low power channel 37 (50.1-3 KSDY-LD) showed a +7 dB improvement in SNR with the amplifier but I couldn’t see any improvement in signal strength. Finally, channel 46 (3.1 XHTJB) out of Tijuana, Mexico showed a 10 dB improvement in SNR with an +8 dB increase in amplified signal strength.

UHF

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4A...it?usp=sharing

So adding an amplifier (TODAY) appeared to improve the SNR’s of weak signals that are probably getting lost in the distribution cable (unless the amplifier promotes adjacent channel interference).

The best part is, I only had two 5 minute trips to the roof on this 99 deg. day!
Hey Pete.
I thought you would find this post from HDTVPrimer interesting.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/temporarypage.html
Sev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2016, 06:42 PM   #82  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,243
Default

Quote:
I thought you would find this post from HDTVPrimer interesting.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/temporarypage.html
That page hasn't been updated in almost 6 years...

Last edited by projectsho89; 06-29-2016 at 07:16 PM..
projectsho89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2016, 06:51 PM   #83  
Pete
 
Pete Higgins's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: California, 58 miles @112 degrees from Mt. Wilson
Posts: 265
Default

Hi Sev,

Yea, I've spent a lot of time reviewing Ken's information over the years. Found it to be a valuable resource. Thanks for the reference.

Pete
Pete Higgins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2016, 12:35 AM   #84  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 263
Default

I too, would avoid that tower at all costs.
Not only would you be dealing w/ outer rust, but possibly internal rust, too.
I have also never cared for that type of bracing, or the flat strap braces.
I would look for a Rohn, or Universal that uses three continuous lengths of re-bar welded in a zig zag pattern.

They can be had so cheaply and hold up so well, that I couldn't imagine that old rust bucket would appeal to anybody but the local Sanford and son.

Do try and work a deal for the rotor assy. and its related hardware, though.
stereocraig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2016, 05:34 AM   #85  
Sev
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stereocraig View Post
I too, would avoid that tower at all costs.
Not only would you be dealing w/ outer rust, but possibly internal rust, too.
I have also never cared for that type of bracing, or the flat strap braces.
I would look for a Rohn, or Universal that uses three continuous lengths of re-bar welded in a zig zag pattern.

They can be had so cheaply and hold up so well, that I couldn't imagine that old rust bucket would appeal to anybody but the local Sanford and son.

Do try and work a deal for the rotor assy. and its related hardware, though.
LOL. Local Sanford and Son. You are showing your age.
Might have to offer the guy 50 bucks for the privilege of removing it to get the rotor.
Bring the tower in for scrap metal to get a few bucks back.
Sev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2016, 05:40 AM   #86  
Sev
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by projectsho89 View Post
That page hasn't been updated in almost 6 years...
True enough.

However, the research is still informative as well as helpful if there have been no design changes to the antenna's.
Sev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2016, 09:04 AM   #87  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sev View Post
LOL. Local Sanford and Son. You are showing your age.
Might have to offer the guy 50 bucks for the privilege of removing it to get the rotor.
Bring the tower in for scrap metal to get a few bucks back.
May be a worthwhile project, as long as the bearings haven't galled the races.
stereocraig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 08:27 AM   #88  
How can anyone watch standard def?
 
WileyOne's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 16
Default

I'm still trying to decide whether a DB8e is worth $38 more than a HDB8x-ni. Can anybody help me decide?

My two markets are 97 degrees apart. One is LOS and the other is 2Edge.
For the seven (real) stations that I care about the NM is between 15.0 and 48.3.

Since the bi-directional capabilities of these antennas have been mostly debunked, I may need two 8-bow-tie antennas, vertically stacked, to get the stations that I want. Yes, I know they will need to be perfectly matched for this to work.

What size mast will I need? My little 1.3" OD is starting to look a bit flimsy. Is there any difference in the wind resistance of these two antennas?
WileyOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 04:39 PM   #89  
It's the Antenna!
 

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,041
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WileyOne View Post
I'm still trying to decide whether a DB8e is worth $38 more than a HDB8x-ni. Can anybody help me decide?

My two markets are 97 degrees apart. One is LOS and the other is 2Edge.
For the seven (real) stations that I care about the NM is between 15.0 and 48.3.
Hello, WileyOne; welcome to the forum.

You should start your own thread for your reception problem instead of tacking it on this Solid Signal thread. We would need a little more information to make a good analysis, like a location, a signal report from tvfool.com, and the channels you want.

If the channels you want are at the lower end of the UHF band, the DB8e would be a better choice because it was rescaled to favor the lower channels when UHF was cut to 14-51 by the FCC.
Quote:
Since the bi-directional capabilities of these antennas have been mostly debunked, I may need two 8-bow-tie antennas, vertically stacked, to get the stations that I want.
Combining two antennas aimed in different directions will work, but not often; you just have to try it. The problem would be just the same if you are combining two 8-bay antennas as the two 4-bay antennas in an 8-bay antenna.

If you don't have all the channels after combining that you had when they were separate, then combining with a splitter in reverse does not work for your location.

ADTech, who works for Antennas Direct and gives good advice on forums, says that an 8-bay antenna that can be aimed in two directions has the best chance of working if the two directions are at right angles, 90 degrees apart.

The reason why it might not work is because the same signals from each antenna that arrive at the combining point will interfere with each other if they are not in phase (arrive at the same instant). If you are not trying to combine them, but using an A/B switch to select the desired antenna, there will be no interference problem, but you will need to rescan after changing direction unless your tuner can add a channel after scan like a Sony.
Quote:
Yes, I know they will need to be perfectly matched for this to work.
They don't need to be perfectly matched if they are aimed in different directions. They do need to be matched if they are aimed in the same direcrtion, with equal length coax lines, if you are combining for more gain as with the DB8e with both panels aimed in the same direction.

Last edited by rabbit73; 05-31-2018 at 04:47 PM..
rabbit73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 05:55 PM   #90  
How can anyone watch standard def?
 
WileyOne's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 16
Default

I've taken your advice and moved my reception questions to a new thread. Please take a look.
Meanwhile, I still have questions about the "Solid Signal Own Brand" which I believe is the model HDB8X for $70.
I've been advised to buy the DB8e because it seems to be a little better built and appears to have less wind resistance.
But, I'm still not convinced that it is $48 better.
Has anybody used both?
Is there any place where I can look up the performance of both antennas on channel 12 (204-210 Mhz)?
WileyOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


to Solid Signal Own Brand
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anybody deal with "East Coast TV's"? djcee73 The High Definition Lounge 2206 11-29-2016 07:52 PM
Seeking advice on a weekend DIY antenna project tbone937 Local HDTV Info and Reception 8 08-04-2012 07:14 PM
tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception rbinck Local HDTV Info and Reception 1174 03-22-2012 05:20 PM
OTA - Roof Top Suggestions Patrick_D Local HDTV Info and Reception 15 07-21-2009 07:26 PM
Please post your Solid Signal frustrations here!! 1happyguy Local HDTV Info and Reception 51 07-20-2009 07:51 AM
Samsung Introduces LCD Line w/ 100,000:1 Contrast Ratio SGMD1 High Definition News & Informative Articles 24 09-19-2007 09:38 AM
Why the Toshiba HD DVD rocks-literally HDMI Fantastic HD DVD Players and Discs 68 01-28-2007 11:17 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:36 PM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands