High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
Rules HDTV Forum Gallery LINK TO US! RSS - High Def Forum AddThis Feed Button AddThis Social Bookmark Button Groups

High Definition Receivers, Recorders, Players, Tivos Discuss High Definition Receivers, Recorders, Players, Tivos, etc. Post reviews ask questions, etc.

View Poll Results: HDCP, FOR or AGAINST
I am against HDCP because it reduces my rights 32 80.00%
I am for HDCP because it assures me the very best HD. 8 20.00%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

HDCP, FOR or AGAINST?

Reply
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-26-2005, 05:08 AM   #1  
High Definition is the definition of life.
Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,095
Default HDCP, FOR or AGAINST?

As a reference, you can read on this topic in the following thread:

http://www.highdefforum.com/showthre...5&page=1&pp=10

With the advent of HD, producers of television programming and movie makers have been both concerned about HDTV viewers having the ability to copy this advanced source of data in digital form (which is the end result of DVI or HDMI, both being digital interface connections) and then offer the end product for downloading on the Internet.

Broadcasters, starting with CBS, wanted to secure the presence of top quality products, including movies, in this new HD format and together with Silicone Image (Intel), the Electronic Industry and MPAA created the HighBand Content Protection protocol to protect exceptional HD productions from being copied for mass illegal distribution. This HDCP protocol was then submitted to FCC as a means to provide TV viewers with unrestricted access to HD even with the ability to time shift. This was then presented to, the FCC.

FCC has adopted the protocol but provided:
* that Legacy equipment (STB's and HDTV's without HDCP devices) would not be restricted to receive HD format,
* that failure to comply (using Component connection) would not result in receiving encrypted data.
* in regards to the Broadcast Flag, the FCC would accept a 30 day advance notice from a broadcaster who would specify his intention to encode an HD program or HD programs so that those HDCP receivers (STB) not having established a compliant connection (with DVI or HDMI) would then transmit a downrez resolution (480i).

Acceptiing the above for the purpose of this poll,

As an HDTV owner,

do you feel that HDCP is an aggression to some freedom right that you may wish to retain at whatever cost?, Or

do you accept HDCP as a means to secure good HD programming and movies in HD for your continued access and DVR recording in HD format?

Your participation would be precious because you, as an HDTV owner, are the real consumer in this case.
mfabien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2005, 07:53 AM   #2  
High Definition is the definition of life.
Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,095
Default

In close to 3 hours, 8 visitors and one vote (my vote).

That tells me that little is known about HDCP. So if you want to learn about it, and you should because it will impact your HD viewing if you don't do the correct connection, here are a few links:

What is it?

http://www.digital-cp.com/

HDCP revision 1.1

http://www.digital-cp.com/data/HDCPS...tionRev1_1.pdf

FCC and the Broadcast Flag:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-240759A1.pdf

Press release on Broadcast Flag:

http://www.mpaa.org/Press/Broadcast_Flag_QA.htm

Illustrated report on how HDCP works:

http://www.hpaonline.com/files/public/CBHuntFinal.pdf

FCC 03-225:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-225A1.pdf<br>

MPAA on piracy:

http://www.mpaa.org/home.htm

Feature article on DVI and HDMI and HDCP explained:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-11-2004.html
mfabien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2005, 12:19 PM   #3  
High Definition is the definition of life.
Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,095
Default

Bump
mfabien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2005, 02:41 PM   #4  
Mr. Wizard
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ferndale, Michigan
Age: 71
Posts: 5,981
Default

</QUOTE>
With the advent of HD, producers of television programming and movie makers have been both concerned about HDTV viewers having the ability to copy this advanced source of data in digital form (which is the end result of DVI or HDMI, both being digital interface connections) and then offer the end product for downloading on the Internet.
</!QUOTE>

This is misleading... HDMI or DMI is not practical to record, intentionally... it's datarate is just too high. HDTV is broadcast & stored as a compressed MPEG2 file of only about 2.5 MB/sec... This is the signal that's easily manipulated. HDMI output is 180 MB/sec since it's the RGB values of the DEcompressed MPEG2 stream. Real time [email protected] compression of HDMI would require dedicated equiptment costing thousands.

What these MPAA shills are sweeping under the rug, is that not only are you prevented from transmitting whole movies over the internet, you are ALSO prevented from exercising the hard won 'Fair Use' rights as determined by the Supreme Court when the MPAA tried to outlaw VCRs... the right to quote short pieces of video for use in reviews, criticism, or satire. And your right to make archival copies of material for YOUR OWN USE is also prevented... even though it is legal. One common use of DVD XCopy is the perfectly legal creation of backup copies of Kid's Disney movies... parents put the original away & let the kids use the copy to get scratched & peanut buttered & teethed on... MPAAs position makes this impossible, so they'll have to buy new originals everytime the kids damage one...

A determined pirate will have no trouble cracking this protection. What it does is make the 'Fair Use' of video content difficult or impossible for the common man's legitimate uses. The OTHER thing it does, in common with other earlier copy protection schemes for PC games, is make the protected system difficult to use & flakey... I take it you HAVE noticed all the complaints & pleas for help when the HDMI dialog goes wrong & won't permit your TV to show a legitimate signal... problems depending on which device is powered on first, source or destination, abound...

Perhaps people would like to see some other background papers that don't come from the MPAA... here's the "Electronic Freedom Foundation" who are fighting MPAA in the courts for consumer fair use rights... http://www.eff.org

Last edited by RSawdey; 03-27-2005 at 02:54 PM..
RSawdey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2005, 05:15 PM   #5  
High Definition is the definition of life.
Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,095
Default

The reality is that HDCP is there and will be fully functional when the Broadcast Flag gets introduced later this year.

For that reason, it is important for HDTV owners to connect there HDCP compliant STB with a DVI or HDMI cable to their TV. For those who insist on maintaining connection via Component, there will come the day where the expected HD program will be in SD.

Other philosophical considerations will not change the above.
mfabien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2005, 07:49 PM   #6  
Mr. Wizard
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ferndale, Michigan
Age: 71
Posts: 5,981
Default

Unless the Supreme Court saves it's people's freedom once again...
RSawdey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2005, 05:26 AM   #7  
High Definition is the definition of life.
Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,095
Default

A firm in Beijing, China sells software to beat the CSS copy protection on DVD's for less than $20. You must be one to applaud this Chinese demonstration of freedom to copy! huh?

In my opinion if ever the case of HDCP goes to the Supreme Court, the panel of juges will weigh your right to do anything you want with your life and the rights of people living in an organized society.

HDTV owners will retain the right to view all HD coming from broadcasters and those with HD DVR's and even those using a computer with an appropriate graphic card complete with an HDCP device (such as the Radeon 9800 PRO at:
http://www.ati.com/products/radeon98...pro/specs.html )
will be able to record HD on HDD. And HDCP interacts with DTCP protocol associated with a D-VHS HD tape deck.

So, what's left? What is removed from the rights of US citizens because of HDCP? Well it's the right to upload on the Internet or otherwise make copies of HD television programs and movies which has the net affect of shortchanging the producers of these artworks. In addition, the HDCP protocol is applicable the world over and that should be in the minds of the panel of juges because HD will start in Europe this year.

And I'm from Canada and HDCP will apply in full. See CDTV statement at:
http://206.191.60.3/index.cfm
mfabien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2005, 05:26 PM   #8  
Mr. Wizard
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ferndale, Michigan
Age: 71
Posts: 5,981
Default

No, I'd prefer to use the legal American product XCopy that MPAA has been trying to put out of business... courts keep upholding their right to make backups for personal use however...

The Chinese product is hardly novel... most computer people know CSS was first cracked by a high school kid in Finland... he was forced to, since the industry wouldn't liscense any players for his Linux operating system. The DeCSS unlocking program widely available on the 'net can be expressed in a single line of Perl... MPAA tried to make it illegal to even TALK about DeCSS... until the Supreme Court once more quashed their blatantly unconstitutional restraint of free speech.

It is illegal to distribute copyrighted material without permission, with the exception of limited 'fair use' rights. That's as it should be. Restrictive flakey hardware that ALSO prohibits the legal fair uses defined by the Supreme court is oppressive, an inappropriate industry usurpation of personal rights. Not to mention adding cost to all devices & being a PITA to use.

Last edited by RSawdey; 03-28-2005 at 05:36 PM..
RSawdey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2005, 04:02 AM   #9  
High Definition is the definition of life.
Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,095
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSawdey
It is illegal to distribute copyrighted material without permission, with the exception of limited 'fair use' rights. That's as it should be. Restrictive flakey hardware that ALSO prohibits the legal fair uses defined by the Supreme court is oppressive, an inappropriate industry usurpation of personal rights. Not to mention adding cost to all devices & being a PITA to use.
I think we should end our exchanges because we are alone to much care about this issue. You see, out of 129 visitors to the Poll/Thread, only 9 have bothered to vote and we are the only two voters to have posted replies. And it is clear we will not change our minds. But I will admit that from the early vote of 5 to 1 in favour of HDCP, the present 5 to 4 is much to your efforts.

I do thank you for the debate and the class you have shown in your posts. I will only post again in this thread if others start to say something...
mfabien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2005, 12:52 PM   #10  
Miss-Ti, World's BEST Cat
 
CatManDoo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 1,827
Thumbs down Against also

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfabien
I think we should end our exchanges because we are alone to much care about this issue. You see, out of 129 visitors to the Poll/Thread, only 9 have bothered to vote and we are the only two voters to have posted replies. And it is clear we will not change our minds. But I will admit that from the early vote of 5 to 1 in favour of HDCP, the present 5 to 4 is much to your efforts.

I do thank you for the debate and the class you have shown in your posts. I will only post again in this thread if others start to say something...
Actually, now 10.
View Poll Results: HDCP, FOR or AGAINST
I am against HDCP because it reduces my rights 5 50.00%
I am for HDCP because it assures me the very best HD. 5 50.00%
I voted against it, mainly for the reason posed by RSawdey: It's a PITA !! I HATE the 'Blue Screen of Death'. I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of making illegal copies of anything, but using DVI can cause my setup to shutdown if I just so much as accidentally hit the wrong input switch while watching TV. It sucks, so I'm going back to component cables as suggested by the Wizard.
CatManDoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2005, 03:07 PM   #11  
High Definition is the definition of life.
Thread Starter
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,095
Default

Love your cats !

Are you connected via DVI or HDMI?

I know some makes of HDTV's have had a hard time dealing with certain STB's because of DVI. I understand your position.

In fact that very problem has delayed Scientific Atlanta to pass on an activation update to cable companies for the activation of the SA8000HD DVR. But it has started progressively and will be completed shortly.

The HDMI STB's have had better luck because the testing procedure for HDMI was better handled or simpler to complete than that of the DVI connection. Growing pains, huh?
mfabien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2005, 04:46 PM   #12  
Eyes have seen the Glory
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 21
Lightbulb

It's hard for me to understand anyone being for the FCC mandating how electronics manufacturerers make their products to this degree. It would appear to me as though they have over stepped their boundaries on this one.
I am open to enlightenment...

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=522183
dchale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2005, 05:47 PM   #13  
Miss-Ti, World's BEST Cat
 
CatManDoo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 1,827
Unhappy Expensive lesson

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfabien
Love your cats !

Are you connected via DVI or HDMI?

I know some makes of HDTV's have had a hard time dealing with certain STB's because of DVI. I understand your position.

In fact that very problem has delayed Scientific Atlanta to pass on an activation update to cable companies for the activation of the SA8000HD DVR. But it has started progressively and will be completed shortly.

The HDMI STB's have had better luck because the testing procedure for HDMI was better handled or simpler to complete than that of the DVI connection. Growing pains, huh?
I have DVI only. You would think that HDMI is better because it handles video and audio, but in my case I think I'm either better off or at least as well off as I would be with HDMI. My reasoning is that I send the video signal from the Cable STB to the TV with a DVI cable, and I send the 5.1 Dolby audio signal from the Cable STB to my receiver with an Optical connection. So even if I had HDMI, that would send video and audio to the TV but I would just have to pass the audio back to the receiver from the TV to the receiver to keep my 5.1 Dolby audio. But actually I'm planning to disconnect my DVI and go back to component cables for the video portion because every time I use my remote I am afraid of that "blue screen of death" that would happen if I hit a wrong button. And since I've been told that DVI is overrated and I won't notice a difference, I may as well go back. I just wish I had found this Forum a year ago so that I could have taken my DVI cable back to CC and got my $100 bucks back. Oh, well; live and learn!

p.s. I love those cats (kittens) too, but unfortunately they're not mine. I got that picture from some clip-art thing because I don't have a digital camera to snap a picture of my 15+ year old calico. Maybe I'll get a camera or borrow one so I can replace that avatar with my real kitty!
CatManDoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2005, 07:29 PM   #14  
More HD programming NOW!
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Rocky Mount, NC
Posts: 47
Default Breaking the tie

Don't feel really strongly about this , but why is the newer, better technology inherently being used to prevent hard copy recording? Not really an issue now, but will be when recordable DVD-HD is the norm.

Jim
Bleudiable is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2005, 11:06 AM   #15  
Mr. Wizard
 

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ferndale, Michigan
Age: 71
Posts: 5,981
Default

This is already an issue for D-VHS owners, and people who want to process their video thru the PC, and early adopters without DVI or HDMI inputs...

And the increasing group of people like CatManDoo having problems with the flakey connection...
RSawdey is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


to HDCP, FOR or AGAINST?
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Vizio VO32LF (32" 1080p LCD) BGrutter Flat-Panel TVs 182 10-23-2010 11:49 AM
New HD DVD's and Blu-Ray disks won't play properly for many users? iDarren High Definition Media 30 01-17-2008 08:24 PM
ANd so the next or possibly many future DRM changes are starting PFC5 High Definition Media 17 01-05-2008 02:40 PM
I think that I am displeased with my Digimate 26" LCD HDTV (DGL26).. should I return? DJLanglois Flat-Panel TVs 37 01-20-2006 03:02 PM
Hdcp gweid The High Definition Lounge 16 01-29-2005 03:35 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:49 AM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004 - 2018, MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands