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My S-VHS now a doorstop?

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Old 09-10-2007, 11:59 AM   #31  
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Originally Posted by billinprinceto View Post
mmm, guess you heard wrong. I do it all the time. Use S-video from HD-DVR to DVD/R and press record. No problems.
You can't use S-video to transfer HD video. I was referring to the ability to archive high-def from a DVR.
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D-VHS was a "last hurrah" for VHS and while the D-VHS system is seen by its few and dwindling fans as a highly versatile recorder, it should be noted that the other tape-based formats, DV and Digital8, never gained any consumer interest except as camcorder mediums.
Plagiarist. You stole that entire paragraph from wikipedia without proper citation/giving credit.
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:30 PM   #32  
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I kinda wondered when these two would butt heads....
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:30 PM   #33  
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You can't use S-video to transfer HD video. I was referring to the ability to archive high-def from a DVR.
Really?? Seems to me that you queried: "Aren't the DVR-HD programs encoded to prevent copying to external devices?" (in your post #25); to which I commented: "mmm, guess you heard wrong. I do it all the time. Use S-video from HD-DVR to DVD/R and press record. No problems." (in my post #28) Nowhere in this thread has there been any prior reference to "HD video" or to archiving actual high-def, until your most recent post.

Also, had you been reading this thread, you would have read my clarrification of this matter in my post #30 which clearly states that recorded HD content is clearly no longer retains its original HD quality. So there wall little need for the further mistatement that you made above.

You can, in fact, transfer HD video using S-video from a DVR for the purpose of archiving high def programs, only they will indeed be in SD format. Maybe you didn't understand that the first time around.

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Plagiarist. You stole that entire paragraph from wikipedia without proper citation/giving credit.
Well, on the one hand, I always agreed with Seneca: "Whatever is well said by another is mine."

Nonetheless, the paragraph in question is a brief exerpt from a long article in wiki, which I considerably revised from the orginal, which I post here for all who require edification:
"As a "last hurrah" for VHS, the D-VHS system is seen by its fans as a highly versatile domestic recorder (the other tape-based formats are DV and Digital8, which never gained any traction except as camcorder mediums), but given the wholesale move to DVD and then hard disk drive (HDD) recording, the format has failed to make any headway into the video market." Source: Wiki

Shame on me!
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:21 AM   #34  
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Really?? Seems to me that you queried: "Aren't the DVR-HD programs encoded to prevent copying to external devices?" (in your post #25); to which I commented: "mmm, guess you heard wrong. I do it all the time. Use S-video from HD-DVR to DVD/R and press record. No problems." (in my post #28) Nowhere in this thread has there been any prior reference to "HD video" or to archiving actual high-def, until your most recent post.

FALSE. Here is the complete conversation. As you can see, I was discussing "storing HD" not SD.

ELECTRICTROY WROTE: "- The manufacturers are making it really difficult for consumers to capture & store HD in their libraries. D-VHS is probably the only practical solution right now. (Or else download the HD rips off the internet.)"

BILLPRINCE REPLIED: "So why would anyone want to continue attempting to use ANY tape system for recording new material? ..... You can upgrade to a damn nice DVD/R for $120 - $100, archive from HD DVR"



To which I now respond (and repeat myself): For storing HD, D-VHS is probably the only practical solution right now. You can not copy HD off a DVR, because it's encoded to prevent copying.

Last edited by electrictroy; 09-11-2007 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:41 PM   #35  
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Originally Posted by pappylap
I kinda wondered when these two would butt heads....
Not completely sure why, but this statement made me laugh my ass off.
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Old 09-11-2007, 09:01 PM   #36  
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Originally Posted by electrictroy View Post
FALSE. Here is the complete conversation. As you can see, I was discussing "storing HD" not SD.
mmm, hard to imagine how you can yell FALSE when the material was quoted verbatim (including post numbers). In the actual context, my statement was both true and accurate.

What I have a problem with now is that you follow with something that you call "the complete conversation" . . .

Quote:
ELECTRICTROY WROTE: "- The manufacturers are making it really difficult for consumers to capture & store HD in their libraries. D-VHS is probably the only practical solution right now. (Or else download the HD rips off the internet.)"

BILLPRINCE REPLIED: "So why would anyone want to continue attempting to use ANY tape system for recording new material? ..... You can upgrade to a damn nice DVD/R for $120 - $100, archive from HD DVR"
. . . which is taken completely out of context as my statement was in response to the broader context of the entire thread and not in direct reply to your statement. If it had been in direct reply, I would have quoted you to make that clear. Since I did not quote you ahead of my query, it would be preferable to consider the entire context of the thread.

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To which I now respond (and repeat myself): For storing HD, D-VHS is probably the only practical solution right now. You can not copy HD off a DVR, because it's encoded to prevent copying.
EGAD!!! Talk about fabrication. You have taken two statements separated by additional content and presented them as a single continuous statement in a very deceptive manner. So, the fact is, that is NOT what you said. You said:

" . . . for consumers to capture & store HD in their libraries . . . D-VHS is probably the only practical solution right now."(your post #23) And it should be pointed out that there was no direct reply to this statement by me nor anyone else.

and then later (in your post #25) you ASKED: "Aren't the DVR-HD programs encoded to prevent copying to external devices?" Interesting that you refered here to "external devices", and indeed two further posts in respose were 100% accurate and correct:
The first was from deadhead68 in his post #27 "Nope. At least not on my Motorola DCT3412 from Comcast."
And the second was my post #28 - "mmm, guess you heard wrong. I do it all the time. Use S-video from HD-DVR to DVD/R and press record. No problems."

At least I have no need to misquote nor distort.
Give it up troy
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:40 AM   #37  
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my statement was in response to the broader context of the entire thread and not in direct reply to your statement. If it had been in direct reply, I would have quoted you to make that clear.
Perhaps true. However your reply about tape-based systems (24) also followed *directly* after mine about Digital VHS (23), so it's easy to see how/why I interpreted your post as a response to my post.
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At least I have no need to misquote nor distort. Give it up troy
No YOU give it up. I didn't deliberate distort; I merely misinterpreted your post (24) as a response to my post (23).

That's all.

Last edited by electrictroy; 09-12-2007 at 07:43 AM..
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:09 AM   #38  
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fini . . .
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:54 AM   #39  
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Originally Posted by billinprinceto View Post
You can upgrade to a damn nice DVD/R for $120 - $100, archive from HD DVR as well as archive old tape material. Output is handled digitally from the getgo, so bye-bye to all that analogue circuitry in the tape machines. Everything that I have archived from my DVR to my DVD/R looks IDENTICAL whether I view from the DVR or from the DVD/R.
I've had to be away from this forum for a while, but this is exactly what I'd like to learn more about.

Would you mind posting the equipment you're using and the way it's connected?

I'd be most grateful. DGI
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Old 09-14-2007, 06:13 PM   #40  
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I've had to be away from this forum for a while, but this is exactly what I'd like to learn more about.

Would you mind posting the equipment you're using and the way it's connected?

I'd be most grateful. DGI
Sure, glad to share.

My HD DVR is Motorola 6416-2 (Verizon FIOS) connect with S-video to a Philips DVDR3475/37 (I bought this about 6 months ago at BB for $130; I believe walmart has it now for $120).

When you record SD, it is very straight forward and recorded DVD content plays identical to playback off of the DVR. Proper finalizing of disc will make them playable on ANY other DVD player or computer that I have so far tried.

If you archive HD programs in this manner, there is one small issue. Playback of the recorded DVD will play in windowbox (black bars on sides and top/bottom) which is not very desirable. You can, at some sacrifice in pq, use the zoom feature to increase the picture to fill the tv screen vertically which is, in my opinion, "not bad" . . . or should I say satisfactory.

Hope this has helped.
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Old 09-15-2007, 03:31 PM   #41  
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Originally Posted by billinprinceto View Post
If you archive HD programs in this manner, there is one small issue. Playback of the recorded DVD will play in windowbox (black bars on sides and top/bottom) which is not very desirable. You can, at some sacrifice in pq, use the zoom feature to increase the picture to fill the tv screen vertically which is, in my opinion, "not bad" . . . or should I say satisfactory.

Hope this has helped.

It has, indeed. Thanks very much. The Windowboxing is a bit of a disappointment, but until I can afford to invest in a device that will record HD as one would like to see it, this seems a fair solution for sharing programs with my family overseas (many of which are in SD anyway).

DGI
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Old 09-16-2007, 04:39 AM   #42  
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Originally Posted by billinprinceto View Post
Sure, glad to share.

My HD DVR is Motorola 6416-2 (Verizon FIOS) connect with S-video to a Philips DVDR3475/37 (I bought this about 6 months ago at BB for $130; I believe walmart has it now for $120).
Incidentally, I looked this model up on the Philips site and it says the unit offers "1080p HDMI with true high definition video upconversion". As I say, I'm new to this, but the way I'm interpreting it is that if you connect the box and recorder via HDMI cable you avoid the windowboxing.

I'm very possibly wrong about that. I'm learning as I go.

DGI
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Old 09-16-2007, 12:02 PM   #43  
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Originally Posted by mulciber View Post
Incidentally, I looked this model up on the Philips site and it says the unit offers "1080p HDMI with true high definition video upconversion". As I say, I'm new to this, but the way I'm interpreting it is that if you connect the box and recorder via HDMI cable you avoid the windowboxing.

I'm very possibly wrong about that. I'm learning as I go.

DGI
Yes, these things can be confusing:

The Philips statement, "1080p HDMI with true high definition video upconversion", is technically true and correct, but it is only talking about resolution and saying nothing about aspect ratio. It's apples and oranges.

First, let's clarrify a bit about the Philips statement (which could be misleading to the "uninformed"), cuz, frankly I don't like their use of the words "true high definition video" - that's gobblediegoop, but since everybody does it, we have to live with it. A standard DVD has content encoded at 480i. That's it, period, fini!!! What the Philips player does (as does any other upconverting DVD player) is interoplate additional pixels required to fill all of the pixels on a HD screen. Well, 480i on a widescreen format is about 400,000 pixels. A 1080 HD screen needs a bit over 2,000,000 pixels to fill the screen. The upscaling DVD player uses hardware based algorithms to "fill in" the missing pixels, calculating intensity, color, even motion, and etc. to do this. So, it is important for the consumer to understand that "nothing is free" and "you can't make something from nothing"; which is to say: assume two identical sources (a hollywood movie); processed with the best equipment and converted to digital using the best equiment and algorithms; compressed using the same compression hardware and software to both 1080i and 480i. First, we must admit that the 1080i based content contains about 2 million pixels per frame of compressed data and the 480i content contains only 400,000 pixels per frame of compressed data. Now, let's burn the 1080i into an HD DVD; it's still all there. Next, let's burn the 480i content into a conventional DVD; it's still all there as well . . . only much less than on the HD version. We can do this because the HD DVD contains about 6 times the data capacity of a conventional DVD and the content being recorded is roughly 5 times greater in our example. Finally, let's play them both back on identical equipment; what conclusions can we expect to draw?
1) It is likely that the HD version will always provide higher picture quality because the picture is represented by 5 times as much "original" data as the conventional version. How great this difference is and how perceptible it is to the viewer is an issue of some debate, but with current technology it is probably perceiptible to most viewers to some degree.
2) It is likely possible that a poorly mastered HD DVD could look worse than a well mastered conventional DVD.
3) Final viewing quality is dependent on a number of factors including BOTH source and display.
4) Philip's promotional statement is technically correct in terms of number of pixes being sent to the display, but can be easily misunderstood since it avoids any mention of source material.

Now, moving on: As for window boxing; consider another example, it is not uncommon for SD programming to be sent out in "letterbox" format so that it displays on a 4:3 display with black bars at the top and bottom giving a (yuck!) "cinema" effect. Guess what happens when that same programming is displayed on a 16:9 display - - - it has black bars on the top, and the bottom, AND on both sides! Same is the case with DVD players, with proper encoding, an upscaling DVD player "knows" that the 480i content should be processed so that it plays in full screen 16:9; unfortunately when you and I record HD content, we have no way to tell it to do that, so we get windowboxing.

Why can't program suppliers send out stuff that will "best fit" any format; why can't equipment "know" what is being sent to it and have the ability to scale it to "best fit" its capabilities; why can't DVD/R machines redisplay recorded HD content in full screen mode, even 16:9 . . . . why not???? All of these are, I believe, within the realm of technical capability, but they have simply not been implimented, I am sure, for a myriad of reasons, both technical and economic and perhaps even legal. However, we have what we have.

So, even connecting the Philips DVD/R with HDMI you still get windowboxing. If I figure some way around this (other than "zoom" as I wrote earlier) I will be delighted and happy to share with you. Likewise, if someone comes out with a new (reasonably priced) machine that would address this single issue, I would strongly consider purching it. Sorry to be the bearer of "bad" tidings.
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:08 PM   #44  
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Why can't program suppliers send out stuff that will "best fit" any format; why can't equipment "know" what is being sent to it and have the ability to scale it to "best fit" its capabilities; why can't DVD/R machines redisplay recorded HD content in full screen mode, even 16:9 . . . . why not???? All of these are, I believe, within the realm of technical capability, but they have simply not been implimented, I am sure, for a myriad of reasons, both technical and economic and perhaps even legal.
That is perplexing. But thanks so much for the very thorough explanation. It really helps a great deal.

DGI
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