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Toshiba in war with Blu-ray again with DVD extension

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Old 06-18-2008, 09:32 PM   #76  
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Just the phrase "While it no doubt should sharpen up the video just like a current upscaler" is indicative that you don't, or don't want to, understand SRT. It is not anything "just" like a current upscaler.

It is too bad that the media decided to say this technology was aimed at destroying Blu-ray, because I don't think it is myself. Really it is not a threat to Blu-ray, price is.

I think the claim of converting to HD is giving this technology a little bit more credit than it implies, but I have no doubt that if it can be produced as an adder of $100 to $200 it will sell well.
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:43 PM   #77  
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Just the phrase "While it no doubt should sharpen up the video just like a current upscaler" is indicative that you don't, or don't want to, understand SRT. It is not anything "just" like a current upscaler.

It is too bad that the media decided to say this technology was aimed at destroying Blu-ray, because I don't think it is myself. Really it is not a threat to Blu-ray, price is.

I think the claim of converting to HD is giving this technology a little bit more credit than it implies, but I have no doubt that if it can be produced as an adder of $100 to $200 it will sell well.
Thats why I try not to ask serious questions around here because they rarely get answered. It would seem logical to compare SRT to current upscalers since both seek to fill in data that can't be seen without them even though that do it in different ways.
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Old 06-18-2008, 10:24 PM   #78  
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Not really.

Upscaling is simple interpolation between existing pixels. All it can do is smooth the transition between existing pixels so the image doesn't look as pixelated on a larger display as it otherwise would. It increases the pixel density without really increasing the resolution of the image--basically it creates a high resolution picture of a low resolution image.

It can't add detail to the image, as it has no idea what details are missing. Some upscalers use edge enhancement to further simulate a sharper picture, but it's all simulated and obviously doesn't look as good as a truly higher resolution image.

SRT adds real, high-resolution details to the picture by deducing the details based on differences between frames--it's based on sampling theory, Nyquist limits and aliasing, which are probably not of interest to anyone other than people developing the algorithms. But it can really create a legitmate HD image (at least how the CEA defines "HD").

Whether Toshiba can make it work, make it cheap enough and get it done when they say remains to be seen, but the technology is indisputably real.
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Old 06-19-2008, 03:07 AM   #79  
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Not really.

Upscaling is simple interpolation between existing pixels. All it can do is smooth the transition between existing pixels so the image doesn't look as pixelated on a larger display as it otherwise would. It increases the pixel density without really increasing the resolution of the image--basically it creates a high resolution picture of a low resolution image.

It can't add detail to the image, as it has no idea what details are missing. Some upscalers use edge enhancement to further simulate a sharper picture, but it's all simulated and obviously doesn't look as good as a truly higher resolution image.

SRT adds real, high-resolution details to the picture by deducing the details based on differences between frames--it's based on sampling theory, Nyquist limits and aliasing, which are probably not of interest to anyone other than people developing the algorithms. But it can really create a legitmate HD image (at least how the CEA defines "HD").

Whether Toshiba can make it work, make it cheap enough and get it done when they say remains to be seen, but the technology is indisputably real.
The bold part is the big key. Thanks to rbinck's excellent mini-demo, from my humble viewpoint it's gonna take a lot of processing power to pull it off. And , it's going to have to be as cheap (and noticeably better) than the current crop of upscalers to have a prayer of succeeding. It's equally dead except for a teeny niche market when BR players get down to the $100 level- and they will eventually.
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Old 06-19-2008, 09:08 AM   #80  
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According to Toshiba, the processing power already exists in the Cell processor, so we have to wait and see. Clearly they believe that to be true since they spent nearly a Billion dollars to buy the Cell fab from SONY. Given that Toshiba helped develop the Cell with SONY and IBM, I suspect they had a pretty good idea of it's capabilities when they bought it out.

Once the algorithms are refined, they can then be hard-coded into an ASIC which would be cheaper, smaller and less power-hungry than the Cell. At that point, it could then be integrated into an SOC which would provide all of the DVD player functionality and SRT in a small, low-cost integrated system, just as in all of the dirt-cheap upscaling DVD players on the market.

If Toshiba then offers up the technology to Chinese manufacturers at a low price, SRT would simply become the standard DVD player offering, just as upscaling DVD players have become the standard DVD player offering at this point and progressive scan DVD players became the standard DVD player offering previously.

Since SRT would just be an add-on post-process to an existing DVD player architecture (on which all development costs were amortized a long time ago and economies of scale have driven costs to rock bottom), it should be able to get to a low price point much faster than a BD player, which has a much more expensive Ultraviolet laser diode, a much more expensive optical assembly and more (and more expensive) codec licensing fees, along with huge development costs to pay for.

Since Toshiba is planning on using SRT in a lot of different products, including displays, STB's and PC's, they don't even need SRT DVD players to cover the development costs--they may prefer to do a $10 cost adder to a $70 DVD player and a $190 cost adder to a $2000 display, rather than add a $100 cost adder to the DVD player and a $100 cost adder to the display.

So again, we shall see.

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Old 06-19-2008, 12:01 PM   #81  
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That's interesting. The marketing concept seems to parallel what Faroudja did with DCDi processing by integrating his chip into a lot of different products.
SRT being a more fundamental and sophisticated technology (where DCDi is more of an 'add-on') should be more successful if Toshiba can get it off the ground. Time will tell.
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Old 06-22-2008, 10:35 AM   #82  
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According to Toshiba, the processing power already exists in the Cell processor, so we have to wait and see. Clearly they believe that to be true since they spent nearly a Billion dollars to buy the Cell fab from SONY. Given that Toshiba helped develop the Cell with SONY and IBM, I suspect they had a pretty good idea of it's capabilities when they bought it out.

Once the algorithms are refined, they can then be hard-coded into an ASIC which would be cheaper, smaller and less power-hungry than the Cell. At that point, it could then be integrated into an SOC which would provide all of the DVD player functionality and SRT in a small, low-cost integrated system, just as in all of the dirt-cheap upscaling DVD players on the market.

If Toshiba then offers up the technology to Chinese manufacturers at a low price, SRT would simply become the standard DVD player offering, just as upscaling DVD players have become the standard DVD player offering at this point and progressive scan DVD players became the standard DVD player offering previously.

Since SRT would just be an add-on post-process to an existing DVD player architecture (on which all development costs were amortized a long time ago and economies of scale have driven costs to rock bottom), it should be able to get to a low price point much faster than a BD player, which has a much more expensive Ultraviolet laser diode, a much more expensive optical assembly and more (and more expensive) codec licensing fees, along with huge development costs to pay for.

Since Toshiba is planning on using SRT in a lot of different products, including displays, STB's and PC's, they don't even need SRT DVD players to cover the development costs--they may prefer to do a $10 cost adder to a $70 DVD player and a $190 cost adder to a $2000 display, rather than add a $100 cost adder to the DVD player and a $100 cost adder to the display.

So again, we shall see.
bob i get it but my ? is why would sony sell toshbia this cell processer in the first place,isn't sony cutting their own thoat if this technology works.2. sony must have known what tos was up to when they sold them the cell.boy i'd love to a fly on the walls of these two company's
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:18 PM   #83  
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bob i get it but my ? is why would sony sell toshbia this cell processer in the first place,isn't sony cutting their own thoat if this technology works.2. sony must have known what tos was up to when they sold them the cell.boy i'd love to a fly on the walls of these two company's
Toshiba was already developing the SRT technology to use in their HD-DVD players which Sony didn't know about. When Sony offered the cell chip technology, Toshiba jumped on it as the cell processor makes SRT a viable solution. Too bad Sony didn't know because now it might come back and bite them in the ass.
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Old 06-22-2008, 10:21 PM   #84  
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bob i get it but my ? is why would sony sell toshbia this cell processer in the first place,isn't sony cutting their own thoat if this technology works.2. sony must have known what tos was up to when they sold them the cell.boy i'd love to a fly on the walls of these two company's
Business is business.

SONY was already paying Toshiba for a number of major components in the PS3 (I think two of the four most expensive semiconductors in the PS3 were supplied by Toshiba). SONY also lost Billions of Dollars on the PS3, so it probably seemed like a good deal to sell the fab to Toshiba for nearly a Billion Dollars (SONY seems to be actively getting out of semicon fab in general).

Quite possibly SONY used the income from that sale to put the last nail in HD DVD's coffin, but Toshiba may end up using the Cell fab to re-invigorate DVD and grab a bigger chunk of the HDTV market with superior SD display.

Undoubtedly the deal guarantees continued availability of the PS3 Cell processor to SONY at an attractive price and Toshiba isn't going to jerk them around--Business is business.
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:25 AM   #85  
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No, no, that was a total misconception on the part of the press, which doesn't understand something, then tries to simplify it for their readers. The SRT "data" is simply the aliased interference patterns caused by undersampling of higher-resolution details in the original image.
Oh I see. Well then that's worthwhile. My Star Trek DS9 dvds look pretty bad, and it would be nice if some new technology (like SRT) could remove the annoying compression artifacts.
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:39 AM   #86  
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According to Toshiba, the processing power already exists in the Cell processor, so we have to wait and see. Clearly they believe that to be true since they spent nearly a Billion dollars to buy the Cell fab from SONY.
SONY is probably betting the SRT technology will flop, thus having only a small impact on Bluray sales.

Thus Sony sees selling the Cell fabrication as a way to increase their profits.
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:13 AM   #87  
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Business is business.

SONY was already paying Toshiba for a number of major components in the PS3 (I think two of the four most expensive semiconductors in the PS3 were supplied by Toshiba). SONY also lost Billions of Dollars on the PS3, so it probably seemed like a good deal to sell the fab to Toshiba for nearly a Billion Dollars (SONY seems to be actively getting out of semicon fab in general).

Quite possibly SONY used the income from that sale to put the last nail in HD DVD's coffin, but Toshiba may end up using the Cell fab to re-invigorate DVD and grab a bigger chunk of the HDTV market with superior SD display.

Undoubtedly the deal guarantees continued availability of the PS3 Cell processor to SONY at an attractive price and Toshiba isn't going to jerk them around--Business is business.
that makes sense to me
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:44 PM   #88  
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It would seem logical to compare SRT to current upscalers
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Originally Posted by 18 is # 1
For many of us that are unwilling to spend big bucks on BR, that could provide incentive to buy new equipment. I don't want to replace all my DVDs. And, I watch way more Dish than DVDs.
But it will have to be a pretty big improvement over my Oppo before I buy it!
SRT x "standard upscale"

Let´s see the Toshiba Quad Core HD (SpursEngine) in "near HD" segment, with these guys (Silicon Optix (HQV), Anchor Bay (DVDO), Sigma Designs (Gennum), Genesis), but with a dvd player with attractive price...

Reon chip used in Toshiba HD-XA2 HD-DVD player and Samsung BD-P1200 Blu-ray player
http://www.siliconoptix.com/products/ReonVX.cfm
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...0%20(Component

Products using Reon:
http://www.hqv.com/products.cfm

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Thus, translating the interlaced video signal from DVD and 1080i sources into progressive format is required by all digital displays. This is the job of a video processor, and the process itself is called de-interlacing. Video processors are found in all digital displays as well as many DVD players and other source devices.

If the objects in the video image are not moving, it is very easy to do the de-interlacing – the two fields can be weaved together and combined to form a complete frame. However, if the recording is performed in an interlaced manner, the two source fields that make up a complete frame are not recorded at the same time. Each frame is recorded as an odd field from one point in time, and then as an even field recorded 1/50th or 1/60th of a second later.

So, if an object in the video has moved in that fraction of a second, simply combining fields causes the errors in the image called “combing” or “feathering” artifacts.

Simplest Competitor Approach (Non-Motion Adaptive):

The simplest approach to avoid these artifacts is to ignore the even fields. This is called a non-motion adaptive approach. In this method, when the two fields reach the processor, data from the even fields are completely ignored.

The video-processing circuitry recreates or “interpolates” the missing lines by averaging pixels from above and below. While there are no combing artifacts, image quality is compromised because half of the detail and resolution have been discarded.

More-advanced techniques have been adopted by virtually all standard-definition video processors, but this basic approach is still sometimes used for high-definition signals, due to the increased computational and data-rate requirements of higher video resolution.

With video processors from some competitors, only 540 lines from a 1080i source are used to create the image that makes it to the screen. This is true even for video processors from companies that may have been considered providers of flagship performance in the standard-definition era.

Advanced Competitor Approach (Frame-based Motion Adaptive):

More advanced de-interlacing techniques available from the competition include a frame-based, motion-adaptive algorithm. By default, these video processors use the same technique described above. However, by using a simple motion calculation, the video processor can determine when no movement has occurred in the entire picture.

If nothing in the image is moving, the processor combines the two fields directly. With this method, still images can have the complete 1080 lines of vertical resolution, but as soon as there is any motion, half of the data is discarded and the resolution drops to 540 lines. So, while static test patterns look sharp, video does not.

Frame-based motion-adaptive techniques are now common in standard-definition video processors. However, this is still rare in high-definition video processors due to the computational complexity of even frame-level high-definition motion detection.

Silicon Optix HQV Approach (Pixel-Based Motion Adaptive):


HQV processing represents the most advanced de-interlacing technique available: a true pixel-based motion-adaptive approach. With HQV processing, motion is identified at the pixel level rather than the frame level. While it is mathematically impossible to avoid discarding pixels in motion during de-interlacing, HQV processing is careful to discard only the pixels that would cause combing artifacts. Everything else is displayed with full resolution.

Pixel-based motion-adaptive de-interlacing avoids artifacts in moving objects and preserves full resolution of non-moving portions of the screen even if neighboring pixels are in motion.
http://www.hqv.com/technology/index1...TOKEN=74397986

Let´s wait for better results in DVD upscale/noise reduction using Super Resolution technology, if compared with the results of Reon-VX HQV solution...

Roberto

Last edited by Robertoy; 06-24-2008 at 12:48 PM..
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:02 PM   #89  
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Oh I see. Well then that's worthwhile. My Star Trek DS9 dvds look pretty bad, and it would be nice if some new technology (like SRT) could remove the annoying compression artifacts.
It could be used to remove compression artifacts, but that's not really what it's meant for. SRT is able to resolve high-resolution details in a lower resolution image--that what it's meant for.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:05 PM   #90  
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SONY is probably betting the SRT technology will flop, thus having only a small impact on Bluray sales.

Thus Sony sees selling the Cell fabrication as a way to increase their profits.
SONY may not have had any idea Toshiba was interested in the Cell for SRT, but either way, SONY knows people who are interested in the best HD are not going to settle for SRT over Blu-Ray.

On the other hand, if consumers are satisfied with either DVD, UC DVD or SRT DVD, then that will extend DVD's lifetime and market share, which is all Toshiba really cares about at this point since their bid at HDM failed.
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