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Toshiba in war with Blu-ray again with DVD extension

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Old 06-03-2008, 06:43 PM   #46  
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Originally Posted by hatt View Post
How do consumers win?
What are they going to save over the next 5 or so years buying DVD v BD? Maybe $5 a title over 50 titles or $250 and that's maybe.
Well, many of us consumers win by not having to invest $300, $400 or more in a blu-ray player which itself may be obsolete in several years.

Instead we invest perhaps $100 or $200 in a machine which may even include record capability and which will play back both new and "legacy" DVDs at much higher quality than any blu-ray player can.

Meanwhile, folks with blu-ray players are out the original investment, plus the cost of new titles (which, I believe, carry a bit more of a premium that the suggested $5 per title), plus if they want to enjoy their SD DVD libraries at the best possible quality they will want to invest in the SRT technology as well. Now, that's fine for folks that just gotta have it all and simply can't live without the best, and the latest, and the greatest . . . but there's an awful lot of us just plain folks who are also consumers.
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Old 06-03-2008, 06:44 PM   #47  
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So you're saying there is also no reason for you to buy a BD player.

And where are you getting an uncompressed OTA signal? OTA is even more highly compressed than Blu-Ray or DVD.

If people are perfectly satisfied with DVD, Toshiba would be happy with that, too. All the want to do is preserve their DVD licensing income.
If I'm unformed about OTA, sorry. It's my understanding it's less compressed than satellite.

As to not having a reason to buy a BR player- wrong. The time will come when I have to replace my 1080i main set (no HDMI input, the curse of an early adopter) with a 1080p one. I definitely can tell the difference between a 1080p signal, especially on a larger screen. What am I waiting for? The same reason a lot of us here I suspect. The price of the player to come down into the $250 range, BR 1.2 version would be a bonus. Q4 of this year? The extra cost of the media is no big deal to me, as I don't buy that many titles.

I'll agree 100% this is a marketing ploy by Toshiba to keep that DVD royalty coming in. Nothing wrong with that.
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Old 06-03-2008, 07:25 PM   #48  
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If I'm unformed about OTA, sorry. It's my understanding it's less compressed than satellite.

As to not having a reason to buy a BR player- wrong. The time will come when I have to replace my 1080i main set (no HDMI input, the curse of an early adopter) with a 1080p one. I definitely can tell the difference between a 1080p signal, especially on a larger screen. What am I waiting for? The same reason a lot of us here I suspect. The price of the player to come down into the $250 range, BR 1.2 version would be a bonus. Q4 of this year? The extra cost of the media is no big deal to me, as I don't buy that many titles.

I'll agree 100% this is a marketing ploy by Toshiba to keep that DVD royalty coming in. Nothing wrong with that.
Not trying to be argumentative, but you can tell the difference between 1080p and what?

There is no difference in a 1080p movie transmitted as 1080i or 1080p.

Even with a larger screen, unless the resolution is 1920 x 1080, you are not likely to see much difference in what you have described.

The thing is, an SRT DVD player would be a true 960p using existing DVD's and at a much lower cost than a BD player, which uses more expensive optics, laser diode, codecs, etc.

I'm not telling you not to buy a BD player, if that is what you want, but the logic escapes me as to why you think consumers would buy an expensive BD player that allows them to buy a limited selection of expensive discs, but wouldn't buy a cheaper SRT player that will make every DVD in the world (over 80,000 titles) look HD (but not Blu-Ray quality when viewed on a 1080p display).

You should also understand that if there are a lot of people like you, people who have no intention of buying BD discs, then that is the death knell for BD. The studios aren't interested in people renting their movies, they will have HD downloads for that which will be more profitable. If people don't start buying BD discs in large quantities, BD goes bye-bye.
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:46 AM   #49  
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Not trying to be argumentative, but you can tell the difference between 1080p and what?

There is no difference in a 1080p movie transmitted as 1080i or 1080p.

Even with a larger screen, unless the resolution is 1920 x 1080, you are not likely to see much difference in what you have described.

The thing is, an SRT DVD player would be a true 960p using existing DVD's and at a much lower cost than a BD player, which uses more expensive optics, laser diode, codecs, etc.

I'm not telling you not to buy a BD player, if that is what you want, but the logic escapes me as to why you think consumers would buy an expensive BD player that allows them to buy a limited selection of expensive discs, but wouldn't buy a cheaper SRT player that will make every DVD in the world (over 80,000 titles) look HD (but not Blu-Ray quality when viewed on a 1080p display).



You should also understand that if there are a lot of people like you, people who have no intention of buying BD discs, then that is the death knell for BD. The studios aren't interested in people renting their movies, they will have HD downloads for that which will be more profitable. If people don't start buying BD discs in large quantities, BD goes bye-bye.
I have every intention of buying a BR player- eventually. Lord of the Rings gets released in BR, I'm first in line to get a player. I'll even go into hock to get the 60" 1080p Pioneer Elite to play it on.

My on HD downloads is it's going to be a generational thing. You want to save a bunch of 1080p movies, you had better hope Western Digital can get the price of 5 TB hard drives down below the price of a PS3 sometime soon.

Um, quite aware that there's no true 1080p except for BR and HDDVD. To clarify things, I can see the difference between upconvert DVD and BR downcoverted to 720p (on a Pioneer plasma) to true BR 1080p on any set that has that capability.

Now as to "true" 960p you should know better. 480 is 480. There's only so much info you can extract from the source. And if that's the case, should BR use the same algorithm, there's no reason BR couldn't output in "true" 2160p resolution, no? Notwithstanding the little detail there's no commercially available sets that can output that.

And I think you're missing something here. Maybe not. Keywords, expensive, limited. when the expense comes down, the titles won't be limited. Are you positing it's not going to happen that the price of BR players won't come down, or just for the sake of argument won't come down fast enough? & heck no, not every one of those 80,000 DVDs will be re-released in BR, just like every one of the couple million or so albums that were on 33 rpm vinyl got re released on cd.

I find it impossible to believe the guys in Sony's and the others in the BR marketing research division haven't done their homework. I'd bet the ranch they know exactly the price point where BR will take off.
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Old 06-04-2008, 03:57 AM   #50  
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[....]

I'm not telling you not to buy a BD player, if that is what you want, but the logic escapes me as to why you think consumers would buy an expensive BD player that allows them to buy a limited selection of expensive discs, but wouldn't buy a cheaper SRT player that will make every DVD in the world (over 80,000 titles) look HD (but not Blu-Ray quality when viewed on a 1080p display).

[....]
What about the letterboxed dvds? Or the edge-enhanced, details filtered to death, macroblocking infested DVDs? Or the ones with the weird colors? (Not even mentioning the often bad audio with "neighbor friendly" dynamics.)

"crap in, crap out" is one of the truths that will stay with us, like death and taxes. These DVDs do not look like HD upscaled with the current crop of upscalers and imo it is save to speculate that they will not look like HD using SUC/SRT as well.
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:38 PM   #51  
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Originally Posted by hoorta View Post
Now as to "true" 960p you should know better. 480 is 480. There's only so much info you can extract from the source. And if that's the case, should BR use the same algorithm, there's no reason BR couldn't output in "true" 2160p resolution, no? Notwithstanding the little detail there's no commercially available sets that can output that.
Super Resolution Technology is very real and used all the time to enhance the resolution of still images. It is not upconversion (which simply increases the pixel density of an SD image to that of an HD image by interpolating new pixels), rather it extracts real, high-resolution details that are not visible in the low resolution image but are essentially "stored" in the differences in interference patterns from frame-to-frame.

Whether Toshiba can pull it off, who knows, but it would be a true HD image, based on the CEA's definition of HD (although, obviously not as good as BD).

And yes, it could also be used to increase the real resolution of BD as well. All images that are converted to digital form have the potential for aliasing, which creates the interference patterns that change from frame-to-frame due to quanitizing error. SRT can analyze these patterns and extract the details that caused them.

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Originally Posted by hoorta View Post
And I think you're missing something here. Maybe not. Keywords, expensive, limited. when the expense comes down, the titles won't be limited. Are you positing it's not going to happen that the price of BR players won't come down, or just for the sake of argument won't come down fast enough? & heck no, not every one of those 80,000 DVDs will be re-released in BR, just like every one of the couple million or so albums that were on 33 rpm vinyl got re released on cd.
It will be years, maybe a decade, before the BD library can be close to what the DVD library is, but that's not really the point, the point is people already have the DVD's, they don't need to buy new discs that cost more.

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Originally Posted by hoorta View Post
I find it impossible to believe the guys in Sony's and the others in the BR marketing research division haven't done their homework. I'd bet the ranch they know exactly the price point where BR will take off.
Can't say. SONY has had far more failures (Elcaset, Beta, DAT, MiniDisc, MMCD, DAT, MicroMV, MemoryStick, SACD, ATRAC players, UMD, etc.) than successes with new consumer formats. They may know the price point, but they say they aren't going to go there until 2009/2010. They really need to pay attention especially to disc sales (although standalone BD player sales are currently poor). If you go through the numbers of BD discs sold and available BD titles, the majority of BD titles sell less than 20,000 copies apiece.

My opinion is, if they don't have routinely under $200 players and routinely under $15 movies by Christmas, they are going to have a tough time. Retailers like WalMart may force that to happen, but the BDA says they have no intention of doing that.

Last edited by BobY; 06-05-2008 at 08:48 PM..
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Old 06-05-2008, 08:46 PM   #52  
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What about the letterboxed dvds? Or the edge-enhanced, details filtered to death, macroblocking infested DVDs? Or the ones with the weird colors? (Not even mentioning the often bad audio with "neighbor friendly" dynamics.)

"crap in, crap out" is one of the truths that will stay with us, like death and taxes. These DVDs do not look like HD upscaled with the current crop of upscalers and imo it is save to speculate that they will not look like HD using SUC/SRT as well.
SRT would work as well on letterboxed DVD's as anamorphic. If a person owns a lot of letterbox DVD's, presumably they are OK with that. A BD player wouldn't do any better a job dealing with letterbox.

If the master is bad, SRT won't fix it, in the same way a poor BD encode doesn't look great either.

Again, the point is, this is not for people who really want BD and are willing to pay the higher cost of a BD player and BD discs to get the best image on their 1080p HDTV and best sound on their HTS. This is for people who have a lot of DVD's and could now see them at HD resolution for less money and don't believe BD is worth the cost. They likely don't have a 1080p display or a HTS and don't really care.

Last edited by BobY; 06-05-2008 at 08:50 PM..
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:46 AM   #53  
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if this new DVD technology can't deliver a significantly better picture than the current crop of up scalers, why bother?
Me too.
I spend way more time with Dish than DVD.
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Old 06-10-2008, 05:15 PM   #54  
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Well spoken BobY...
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Old 06-14-2008, 06:09 AM   #55  
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You can only do so much with 480i - right? You could say the same for humans - you only have a limited amount to work with - strength, health, life span etc. What's really interesting is that we're constantly discovering ways of improving the human condition - what we eat, where we life, what we breath, stress, supplements, medical advancements etc. We're constantly pushing the limits with respect to athletic endeavors through training, nutrition, supplements, equipment etc. If you think you can't, then you can't! If you think you can, then there's the possibility you can! With new technological innovations I see no reason why 480i can't be made to look better than it presently does - perhaps much better. What's the limit? None, until one says "it can't be done". Many things that were "impossible" 100 years ago aren't given a second thought about today - we just do them and think nothing of it!

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Old 06-14-2008, 06:22 AM   #56  
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Toshiba is developing an extension to the DVD format which offers video quality....
That will be about as successful as when JVC tried to "extend" VHS to Super VHS.

i.e. Not at all.
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Old 06-14-2008, 06:30 AM   #57  
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That will be about as successful as when JVC tried to "extend" VHS to Super VHS.

i.e. Not at all.
Nearly everyone I know considers BD just an extension of DVD - and why isn't it just that - an extension of DVD? It has better video and sound, but looks like a DVD, plays like a DVD (albeit on a different player which is a problem), has special features like a DVD. In other words - for all intents and purposes its just an enhanced DVD. No?
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Old 06-14-2008, 06:48 AM   #58  
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No?
No. To say the HD Discs are just an extension is as false as to say DVD was just as extention to CDs. ------ Bluray is an entirely new format using much, much smaller pits, a different laser "needle" to read those pits, and so on. BD v. DVD is like Cylindrical records v. Disc records. Similar principles but incompatible formats.

This new DVD SRT from Toshiba is simply the old DVD standard with extra bandwidth/processing. That, in essence, is what JVC tried to do with Super VHS (and flopped in the marketplace).

Also:

I don't buy this nonsense about "details hidden between the pixels". I have some old 320x240 games that use similar technology to upconvert them to 640x480 or higher resolutions. Result? It still looks like an older game. Similarly an upconverted DVD-SRT will still look like older technology compared to a true HD Disc.
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Old 06-14-2008, 08:48 AM   #59  
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Toshiba WISHES it was in a war with Blu ray, but it's not.

The war is over, and Blu ray won.

For those who want to enjoy the best PQ out there, Blu ray is the thing to focus on. Toshiba may find a way to polish DVD a bit, but atm it is just a marketing promise/ploy.
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:23 AM   #60  
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Toshiba WISHES it was in a war with Blu ray, but it's not.

The war is over, and Blu ray won.

For those who want to enjoy the best PQ out there, Blu ray is the thing to focus on. Toshiba may find a way to polish DVD a bit, but atm it is just a marketing promise/ploy.
By winning the format war Sony did not occupy Toshiba's headquarters and imprison their engineers who developed HD-DVD thus preventing them from ever again designing HD technology. In commerce winning is not that absolute!

And please don't treat this as a BR bash, it is not. Toshiba may again fall on it's laser, but then again?
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