High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
Rules HDTV Forum Gallery LINK TO US! RSS - High Def Forum AddThis Feed Button AddThis Social Bookmark Button Groups

High Definition News & Informative Articles Get the Latest High Definition News & Informative Articles Here! Please post newsworthy information here only! This forum is NOT for your first post. Thank you!

Toshiba in war with Blu-ray again with DVD extension

Reply
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-01-2008, 07:05 PM   #31  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatt View Post
How can speculation be correct until the speculation time frame has passed? I'm sure Boby was speculating plenty about how popular HD DVD would become, was he correct then?
I like the way you are "sure" about things without bothering to check.

What I always said was, HD DVD was far better suited to mass market success than Blu-Ray for a whole host of reasons (cost, a fully-implemented spec. from day one that was not confusing to consumers like multiple BD profiles, more than adequate performance and storage for consumers, lower disc replication investment and costs than BD, a more recognizable name for the mass consumer market).

I never said HD DVD would win, because it obviously didn't have as much studio support and discs were still more expensive than mass consumers would pay. My instincts and experience tell me Blu-Ray has even less chance of succeeding with consumers than HD DVD, though .
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2008, 07:14 PM   #32  
HD Rules
 
brenner's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Vancouver, USA
Age: 68
Posts: 2,006
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobY View Post
My agenda has been clearly stated repeatedly over the last two years and is pretty straightforward:

I want access to a large library of movies in HD for a reasonable price. If it's going to be physical media and not VOD or downloads, then that is going to require low cost discs and low cost players which achieve mass-market penetration. Even LaserDisc, which was a modestly successful niche format, never came close to the number of movies available on DVD (although LD is dramatically ahead of BD in terms of available titles).

My opinion, based on 29 years of professional experience in the CE field (not to mention years as a hobbyist before graduation) is that Blu-Ray is uniquely ill-suited to accomplish the desired goal and is destined to be a niche format like SACD because it puts the profits and agendas of CE companies (mostly SONY) and studios way ahead of the desires of consumers.

No CE product has ever succeeded with priorities that are so far out of balance and features that are of such minor value to most consumers compared to price. SONY has failed so many times in trying to get consumers interested in their better-than-necessary, more expensive, proprietary formats, that it's hard for me to see how Blu-Ray will ever satisfy my agenda. Particularly as long as the manufacturers are more interested in maximizing their profit margins than establishing a mass-success format in the time frame necessary, before it gets derailed by alternate, more cost-effective technologies that better satisfy consumers' desires.

But the BDA has specifically stated they have no intention of doing the things that are necessary. If they get the player prices to $200 and disc prices routinely to $12-$15 dollars and convince more replicators to invest the Millions of Dollars necessary to produce Blu-Ray by Q4 2008, then I think they can make a go of it, otherwise it has "SACD" written all over it to me. Ridiculous? Please note that there are far more SACD players in the world than BD players and far more SACD titles in the world than BD titles, yet SACD is a dead format, dumped even by creator SONY.

Yes, it's only my opinion, but it's based on experience and an understanding of the consumer market that has made my career very successful. Am I going to trust BD zealots instead of my own instincts and experience? Hardly. There are still SACD zealots, too.

Basically, I'm working to overcome the pretense that everything is just peachy with Blu-Ray, so that either the BDA gets their butt in gear to correct the problems and actually tries to succeed with consumers, or so that Blu-Ray dies a quick death in order to make room for something that can be successful.

Excellent post BobY. You definitely have a way with words.
Personally I do not think the BDA will get their butt in gear. Greed will rule out over common sense.
brenner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2008, 10:16 PM   #33  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatt View Post
They paid more for DVD v VHS.
And if you think it was because of a better picture, I rest my case as to why I don't put much credence in the opinions of zealots, audiophiles and videophiles.

When DVD players first came out, the majority of people were hooking them up via Composite Video and the rest were hooking them up via S-Video, neither of which gave a dramatically better picture than VHS. In addition, the MPEG codecs back then were not very good, so they often added all sorts of issues with macroblocking, pixelation and other digital artifacts.

What made people willing to pay more for DVD was smaller size, greater reliability, random access/fast search/scene selection, special features, better sound and better picture. It was the entire package of better convenience and quality that sold them.

Other than better picture (and potentially better sound, but only assuming the consumer uses an external HTS and not the speakers built into their HDTV), what does Blu-Ray have to offer a typical consumer over DVD?
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2008, 12:25 AM   #34  
mmmmm High Def
 
soupnazi's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,152
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobY View Post
And if you think it was because of a better picture, I rest my case as to why I don't put much credence in the opinions of zealots, audiophiles and videophiles.

When DVD players first came out, the majority of people were hooking them up via Composite Video and the rest were hooking them up via S-Video, neither of which gave a dramatically better picture than VHS. In addition, the MPEG codecs back then were not very good, so they often added all sorts of issues with macroblocking, pixelation and other digital artifacts.

What made people willing to pay more for DVD was smaller size, greater reliability, random access/fast search/scene selection, special features, better sound and better picture. It was the entire package of better convenience and quality that sold them.

Other than better picture (and potentially better sound, but only assuming the consumer uses an external HTS and not the speakers built into their HDTV), what does Blu-Ray have to offer a typical consumer over DVD?
You hit the nail on the head with a sledge hammer with that one BobY. Great point.
Blu-ray is no way near as revolutionary as dvd was.
soupnazi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2008, 09:48 AM   #35  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard View Post
No profit doing that and Toshiba has been an outspoken critic of the low priced consumer electronics, with minuscule margins. Unfortunately for Toshiba, HD DVD players could only be sold at a huge loss, but don't look for the company to try such nonsense again. Blu-ray and DVD are going to co-exist, this new method of DVD upscaling, may or may not be terrific, I can't tell from anything I have read or seen, but it will not make DVD look like Blu-ray so Blu-ray isn't going anywhere. It might be good enough for a large enough market segment that it will be a good business for Toshiba. Whether or not Toshiba joins in the Blu-ray market might depend on how well this does. I expect Toshiba to sit out for the life of Blu-ray.

Chris
Chris, I see you have an Oppo 980. (Ditto here) The question in my mind is if this new DVD technology can't deliver a significantly better picture than the current crop of up scalers, why bother? This has all the makings of a DOA format.
hoorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2008, 10:17 AM   #36  
Administrator
 
rbinck's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 16,971
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoorta View Post
Chris, I see you have an Oppo 980. (Ditto here) The question in my mind is if this new DVD technology can't deliver a significantly better picture than the current crop of up scalers, why bother? This has all the makings of a DOA format.
The whole idea of the player is to deliver a significantly better picture than the current crop of up scalers. I can't come up with a reason to discourage that.

Last edited by rbinck; 06-02-2008 at 09:40 PM.. Reason: spell
rbinck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2008, 08:59 PM   #37  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoorta View Post
Chris, I see you have an Oppo 980. (Ditto here) The question in my mind is if this new DVD technology can't deliver a significantly better picture than the current crop of up scalers, why bother? This has all the makings of a DOA format.
Neither upconversion or SRT are "formats". They are post processing of existing SD images. There are no new disc production methods or disc manufacturing equipment necessary, no new codecs, no new optical systems, no new authoring systems, etc., etc., etc.--they are just methods of making the highly popular, existing SD format look better.

In the case of upconversion, an image of HD pixel density is synthesized from an SD image by interpolating new pixels between the real pixels.

In the case of SRT, latent high-resolution details hidden in the SD image are recovered to create a true HD image from an SD image.

Last edited by BobY; 06-02-2008 at 09:03 PM..
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 12:20 PM   #38  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobY View Post
Neither upconversion or SRT are "formats". They are post processing of existing SD images. There are no new disc production methods or disc manufacturing equipment necessary, no new codecs, no new optical systems, no new authoring systems, etc., etc., etc.--they are just methods of making the highly popular, existing SD format look better.

In the case of upconversion, an image of HD pixel density is synthesized from an SD image by interpolating new pixels between the real pixels.

In the case of SRT, latent high-resolution details hidden in the SD image are recovered to create a true HD image from an SD image.
Granted, and as a guy that likes to keep up on what NASA is doing I get it.

This is my big but. Ahem, some folks around here were (are) saying BR isn't going to take off because to the masses, it doesn't offer enough increase in PQ to offset the cost. I like to think of myself as being pretty darn critical when it comes to evaluating how good an image I'm seeing. My personal experience is I absolutely cannot tell the difference in PQ on my 37" LCD 720p set between the Oppo 980 upscaled, and a 720p OTA uncompressed signal. Not trying to bash a nascent technology, but I doubt I'd be interested in buying one of these new players if and when they hit the market.
hoorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 01:28 PM   #39  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

So you're saying there is also no reason for you to buy a BD player.

And where are you getting an uncompressed OTA signal? OTA is even more highly compressed than Blu-Ray or DVD.

If people are perfectly satisfied with DVD, Toshiba would be happy with that, too. All the want to do is preserve their DVD licensing income.
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 02:56 PM   #40  
HT Frontiersman
 
borromini's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Northern California
Posts: 10,309
Default

I wish it was possible to receive an uncompressed OTA signal.
borromini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 03:19 PM   #41  
Administrator
 
rbinck's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 16,971
Default

That has been said unchalenged on various forums that OTA is uncompressed. Completely false and is good to correct it anythime it is said. OTA uses mpeg2, a compression scheme.

And there is a big difference between buying a $150 to $200 player and buying a $400 player. Also there is the possibility of improvement of DVD already owned as opposed to paying for new Blu-ray discs.

Neither Blu-ray or SRT is aimed for the 37" and smaller HDTV owners, I don't think.
rbinck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 03:58 PM   #42  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

We should also note that OTA is not only compressed using MPEG2, but compressed more highly than the MPEG2 used on DVD's so that the networks can free up as much bandwidth as possible for other ways of making money.

Hoorta-

To be honest, I'm not surprised you don't see a difference given that you are comparing upconverted SD and highly-compressed broadcast HD on a relatively small HD screen that doesn't have enough pixels to show you a full 1920 x 1080 image in either case.

Please don't think I'm putting you down. In fact, you are a perfect example of why many consumers wouldn't even think of buying a BD player for $300-$1000 and BD discs for more than DVD's.

Even if you weren't able to see any difference with an SRT DVD player over your existing player, if you were in the market for a player and an SRT player cost the same as your Oppo, why wouldn't you consider one?

A big difference here is, the BDA is trying to convince America we should dump our DVD players and buy more expensive Blu-Ray players and a more limited library of more expensive Blu-Ray discs. All Toshiba is saying is--"Hey you can get real HD playback for a lot less than Blu-Ray and you can do it with any DVD you already have or might buy or rent. And if you don't think it's worth it to dump your DVD player, well that's cool, too!"

Whether a consumer chooses an SRT DVD player or chooses to keep their existing DVD player, Toshiba wins either way by extending the life of DVD which provides a major income stream through licensing fees on every DVD manufactured in the world.
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 04:48 PM   #43  
Administrator
 
rbinck's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 16,971
Default

For you who don't think Toshiba's SRT is going anywhere there is this: Toshiba Super Up-Conversion Promo

While humorous, I don't see SRT as in competition with Blu-ray so much as in competition with upconversion DVD players and processors like the Dvdo iscan.
rbinck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 05:00 PM   #44  
HD Elitist
 
hatt's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: FL
Age: 44
Posts: 6,300
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobY View Post
Whether a consumer chooses an SRT DVD player or chooses to keep their existing DVD player, Toshiba wins either way by extending the life of DVD which provides a major income stream through licensing fees on every DVD manufactured in the world.
We know you want Toshiba to win but: How do consumers win? What are they going to save over the next 5 or so years buying DVD v BD? Maybe $5 a title over 50 titles or $250 and that's maybe.
hatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2008, 05:01 PM   #45  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbinck View Post
For you who don't think Toshiba's SRT is going anywhere there is this: Toshiba Super Up-Conversion Promo

While humorous, I don't see SRT as in competition with Blu-ray so much as in competition with upconversion DVD players and processors like the Dvdo iscan.
Not competition for functionality, but certainly for dollars. And anything that prolongs DVD's dominance is OK by Toshiba...
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


to Toshiba in war with Blu-ray again with DVD extension
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Super Resolution Coming To DVD Players (960P) Lee Stewart High Definition Media 3121 01-01-2009 06:03 PM
Now that Blu-Ray has won, can BD fans admit the following? HiramAbiff High Definition Media 180 03-06-2008 08:59 AM
Paramount Shifts Focus to Blu-ray samcan07 High Definition Media 39 07-29-2007 12:36 AM
A few facts that you might not know howzz1854 High Definition Media 7 02-17-2007 02:55 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:43 PM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004 - 2018, MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands