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7 Reasons to Forget Blu-Ray

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Old 03-07-2008, 07:54 AM   #61  
DTV= *digital* not hi-def
 

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Originally Posted by BobY View Post
(HD DVD's can be manufactured less expensively, with greater throughput, better yield, less materials and on existing DVD production lines with an inexpensive upgrade that allows the line to manufacture either DVD's or HD DVD's).
That WAS true.

It is no longer. Cost of pressing a Blu-ray Disc is now the same as pressing a HD DVD.

(snip the rest of your message which become irrelevant now that BD costs the same, per disc, as HD)
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Consumers never bought into S-VHS because they didn't think the improved picture quality was worth the higher cost for players and tapes.
Yes I know, and that's my exact point with those "twin discs" you keep going on about. Consumers aren't going to pay $30 for a DVD/HD combo, when they can get the DVD single for $15.
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Old 03-08-2008, 02:07 PM   #62  
What's all this, then?...
 
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You can prove that statement, I'm sure (please don't link to the old WesleyTech article, which is not only outdated and has been debunked, but even admits BD50 is the most expensive optical disc format to manufacture).

Although I agree it's a moot point, Blu-Ray discs are considerably more expensive to manufacture than HD DVD. You can research it at your leisure. Particularly check out the AVS forum on the issue that I linked to previously.

I've listed all the issues a number of times and you can search for them--they have been corroborated by independent disc manufacturers like Cinram.

Here's some of the info from that forum:

SONY DADC currently manufactures 90% of all Blu-Ray discs. There is no way to tell how much those discs really cost without sitting down with the accountants at DACD. SONY may be able to cover the costs in various ways, but the third parties needed to bring production of BD's to high volume levels will not.

SONY is subsidizing the costs of BD manufacturing for around $3 a disc for third parties in order to keep the costs acceptable to end customers. Those subsidies will have to end if BD goes into high volume production.

SONY gets a yield of 80% on BD50 (a problem for high volume production compared to DVD's and HD DVD's which yield above 90%). Yields affect cost, as the cost of bad discs must be covered by the good discs.

SONY can currently produce about 9000 finished discs a day per line (dramatically less than DVD or HD DVD. DVD's have a cycle time of 2.4-2.6 seconds, DL HD DVD-30 has a cycle time of 2.8 seconds or less, BD25 has a cycle time of 4 seconds and BD50 has a cycle time of 6 seconds). Lower output means the cost of the production equipment must be amortized over less discs, raising the cost per disc.

In the US, Cinram is the only other producer of BD, using two outdated lines paid for by SONY.

Cinram has just agreed to purchase 15 new BD lines from Singulus in Germany. They cost around $2.5 Million per line (versus less than $100,000 to upgrade a DVD line to add HD DVD capability as well), so about a $35 Million investment that must be amortized across the BD's produced (as a BD line can't also make DVD's). They expect to be fully on-line by fall of 2008.

Each BD line takes up the space of two DVD production lines and outputs about 1/4 the number of finished DVD's per day compared to one DVD line (about 1/3 the number of finished HD DVD's).

The Singulus lines guaranteed yield on BD50 is 65%.

The first several thousand BD50 discs after changing titles are simply thrown away--there are so many bad discs it isn't worth testing them (although that may have improved recently, previuosly it took at least 10,000 discs for the line to stabilize).

Yields are expected to improve with larger volume runs (where bad start-up discs will be a smaller percentage), but cycle times are not expected to improve much due to the extra steps involved and the necessary cooling/curing times compared to DVD/HD DVD.

Paramount's BD releases have been delayed as a result of limited BD disc production capacity and the need for PS3 game disc production.

Given the above, I think it highly unlikely BD's are just as cheap to produce (why would SONY be subsidizing third party production if that were the case?).

Since almost all the costs of BD disc manufacturing are currently hidden by SONY, I don't think we'll get a real idea until more third parties are up and running later this year.

Low demand for BD discs are actually a blessing in disguise at this point, or everybody would be buried in bad discs (80% yield at 1 Million discs per week would be 200,000 bad discs per week--at 65% yield it's 350,000 bad discs per week).

I'm not saying this won't get ironed out, but it's going to be while before the cost of BD's come down and as long as the costs are higher, the studios won't be inclined to lower the retail price much.

Last edited by BobY; 03-08-2008 at 02:22 PM..
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Old 03-08-2008, 02:10 PM   #63  
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Originally Posted by rrrrrroger View Post
Yes I know, and that's my exact point with those "twin discs" you keep going on about. Consumers aren't going to pay $30 for a DVD/HD combo, when they can get the DVD single for $15.
Say, have you read any of my post? You keep asking the same question and I keep answering it. Do you understand that in high volume, the cost to produce an HD DVD TWIN would be only a little more than the cost of a DVD?
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Old 03-10-2008, 05:10 AM   #64  
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Do you understand that Retail price has nothing to do with cost? Studios will sell HD DVD/DVD combo discs for $30 just because they feel like it.
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Originally Posted by BobY View Post
You can prove that statement, I'm sure (please don't link to the old WesleyTech article, which is not only outdated and has been debunked, but even admits BD50 is the most expensive optical disc format to manufacture).
Where was it debunked? Wikipedia still refers to that article (and also a second one to back the first):

"A study performed by Home Media Magazine (August 5, 2007) concluded that HD DVD discs and Blu-ray discs are essentially equal in production cost. Quotes from several disc manufacturers for 25,000 units of HD DVDs and Blu-rays revealed a price differential of only 5-10 cents. (Lowest price: 90 cents versus 100 cents. Highest price: $1.45 versus $1.50.)"

"Another study performed by Wesley Tech (February 9, 2007) arrived at a similar conclusion. Quotes for 10,000 discs show that a 15 gigabyte HD DVD costs $11,500 total, and 25 gigabyte Blu-ray or a 30 gigabyte HD DVD costs $13,000 total.[15] For larger quantities of 100,000 units, the 30 gigabyte HD DVD was more expensive than the 25 gigabyte Blu-ray ($1.55 versus $1.49)."
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Old 03-10-2008, 06:58 AM   #65  
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I really get a kick out of this. I love how everything was HD DVD vs Blu Ray. Now that HD DVD is officially out of the picture HD DVD fanboys have to come up with threads like this.

Honestly who cares???

Blu Ray won the war just deal with it and quit hating on Blu Ray.

Yes inevitably Blu Ray will go away just like tapes, vhs etc.

But the fact is for the majority of users out there this is the best solution for HD media content currently. The whole world doesn't have ultra fast connections to take advantage of down loadable content currently.

If you hate Blu Ray that much go download or watch HD over one of your alternative sources.

Personally I'll continue to watch,buy and enjoy my Blu Ray movies until a better option becomes available.

This thread should be titled "7 Alternative HD choices for bitter HD DVD fanboys that can't except the fact Blu Ray beat them"
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Old 03-10-2008, 03:15 PM   #66  
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I too can tell the difference, but the average joe cannot and they simply do not care. How many times have you run into people at a bar or another event watching a stretched SD broadcast thinking that it is HD? I do all of the time.
OH MY GOD, I hate it when people think that stretched standard-def is high def. It pisses me off and drives me insane. It's just !

An example of this is when my friend got a new 42" 1080i HDTV. He had gotten so used to watching everything stretched on his widescreen SDTV that when I finished setting it up and tuned it to a high def channel, and there were black bars, he complained. I then went on a tangent explaining to him about the black bars, and he eventually understood.
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Old 03-10-2008, 03:33 PM   #67  
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Originally Posted by BobY View Post
Say, have you read any of my post? You keep asking the same question and I keep answering it. Do you understand that in high volume, the cost to produce an HD DVD TWIN would be only a little more than the cost of a DVD?
Boby, you ignored my response to that. Even if the cost was the same, studios would still charge more for combos. They make more money from double-dippers than selling a dual format for the same price (i.e. no double dippers).
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Old 03-10-2008, 06:25 PM   #68  
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OH MY GOD, I hate it when people think that stretched standard-def is high def. It pisses me off and drives me insane. It's just !
Yea, almost as bad and irritating as running into people that don't know what an HD TV actually is.

Quote:
An example of this is when my friend got a new 42" 1080i HDTV.
Unless he got a certain Hitachi set, we of course all know that there is no such thing as a "1080i HDTV", don't we?

Quote:
He had gotten so used to watching everything stretched on his widescreen SDTV . . .
And, of course, we also know that a "widescreen SDTV would be pretty hard to find at Wal-Mart . . . . or anywhere else for that matter.

Quote:
. . . that when I finished setting it up and tuned it to a high def channel, and there were black bars, he complained. I then went on a tangent explaining to him about the black bars, and he eventually understood.
At least we can be sure that your friend fully understands "black bars" now.

Your post was, as they say, PRICELESS!
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:49 PM   #69  
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i looked at these posts and i just wonder why you guys think you can speak for the consumer.
and when you do all i see is there dumb and stupid and sony sucks
and none of these company's know what there doing
i also hear loud & clear since blu-ray won you will settle for sd dvd.
yeh right.
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Old 03-11-2008, 05:00 AM   #70  
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OH MY GOD, I hate it when people think that stretched standard-def is high def. It pisses me off and drives me insane. It's just !
I don't think the original article was talking about stretching. It was referring to watching a widescreen DVD on a high-def set. Many people have bad eyes, and they simply can't tell the difference between a DVD and an HD DVD or Bluray.

My mom is like that with VHS and Super VHS. I can see a clear difference (blurry versus not blurry), but she can not because her eyes have degraded.

Many are like that with standard DVD versus high-def. Their eyes can't see a difference.

Last edited by rrrrrroger; 03-11-2008 at 05:04 AM..
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Old 03-11-2008, 11:01 AM   #71  
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It always makes me chuckle when people talk about their old relatives who cant correct their vision enough to tell the difference between hd and sd, I wasnt aware that our perception of color also degrades with our loss of clarity...learn something new every day, I suppose. No matter, I guess there will always be a place for "upconverting", and that "place" will be right next to the vhs players in those very same households.

Luckily, for the rest of us with 20/20 (or corrected to somewhere close), unconverted is not even close to a reason to forget about blu ray. Renting, no matter the form, is not the same as owning either. In light of attacking the post and not the poster, I still have the very first dvd I ever owned. But hey, you enjoy renting your hd stuff, I will always buy a hard copy that I can enjoy again and again for a decade after purchasing. Only way renting will become logical is if its much cheaper than owning, and you have no desire to enjoy it repeatedly throughout the years.
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Old 03-18-2008, 07:48 AM   #72  
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It always makes me chuckle when people talk about their old relatives who cant correct their vision enough to tell the difference between hd and sd, I wasnt aware that our perception of color also degrades with our loss of clarity...learn something new every day, I suppose. ........

Luckily, for the rest of us with 20/20....
I can't believe you're making fun of people with bad eyesight. Do you kick cripples or knock-over wheelchairs for fun too???
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Old 03-18-2008, 10:29 AM   #73  
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I think if you think about the original post you could of made that same statement about DVD's back in the day. Cable and satellite was around too. But you see how things went. Satellite, Cable and HD downloads are no subsitute for the actual movie in you hand. I don't really see them as competitors, well they are but only to a small degree...
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Old 03-18-2008, 10:52 AM   #74  
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to Scottnot
'Unless he got a certain Hitachi set, we of course all know that there is no such thing as a "1080i HDTV", don't we? '
- Not correct - crt proj tv are 1080i. Mine is as are many others that I know of - the hitachi sets you mention aren't even 1080i they share a circuit which alternately displays 540 lines at a time.

to Type A- color vision and contrast sensitivity is not linked to visual acuity and can often degrade with age much more rapidly than visual acuity. Many people can have good or great acuity and horrible contrast sensitivity.
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:24 PM   #75  
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REASON #8:
Processors are coming for super upconversion (ie, Cell Broadband Engine) inside HDTVs---forget about formats.

Last edited by geister; 03-27-2008 at 02:30 PM..
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