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Confusion over high-definition TV

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Old 04-09-2005, 01:04 PM   #31  
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Question Interlacing

Quote:
Originally Posted by RSawdey
When I saw 1080i I didn't have Peter's rapturous experience... it was more like "they improved it, but it's still broke"... for me, the big deal is progressive scan & higher framerates. It has always been aknowledged that interlacing is an engineering workaround that came at a price in the accuracy of the image, twitter & combing. I always thought the ATSC should have abandoned interlace, legacy = impediment to progress... electronics has progressed to the point where the higher scan rates of progressive displays & cameras are no problem at all and only add a small amount to the cost.
Does this mean that there would be no Hi-Def Direct View CRT's if 1080i had not been adopted as one of the 18 ATSC options?
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Old 09-02-2005, 10:53 AM   #32  
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That might have been possible, but i think thats the reason why it WAS adopted , so that CRT units would still be around, because they are easier/cheaper to make and easier/cheaper to sell.
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Old 09-02-2005, 02:53 PM   #33  
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Hi,

In today's market Mike is quite correct. I like to think, (actually I hate to think) that early adopters like me who bought a Tosh 65H80 with the first progscan dvd player the SD5109 for $8000cdn back in 2001, paved the way for the popularity and subseqent price drop in CRT base units.

When properly ISF calibrated and maintained from a PQ perspective they are a bargain in todays market.

If your fortunate enough to have a designated media room (because a large crt display will dominate whatever room its in) these sets are a bargain and can hold their own with any technology. I haven't read anywhere that the "Blacker than Black" of a CRT can be surpassed.
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Old 09-02-2005, 03:47 PM   #34  
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yay! someone agrees with me! (its rare)



your views are very interesting and agreeable.


All i have to say is thank you early adopters- for draining your childrens college funds, taking a second morgage on your house, and selling your soul, all so technology can improve, prices can go down, and for making High Definition Television a reality and not just a passing fad.
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Old 09-02-2005, 04:30 PM   #35  
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Default Interesting thread with lots of useful info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HughScot
If you had no video inputs how would you watch your DVD player? Or how do you watch a D-VHS tape? So you do need video inputs unless you want to restrict yourself to cable only or OTA viewing for the life of the television.
However, since you asked...

For a few bucks you can purchase a little device called an RF modulator at Radio Shack that allows you to connect a DVD player via composite or s-video connections to any TV with a co-axial RF input. For less than 10 bucks more you can get a 75 to 300 ohm transformer if your set uses the old screw-down antenna connectors. In other words, you can connect a DVD player to darn near any TV set ever made, even your prized 50 year-old monster-sized museum piece with a 7" B&W screen, if it still works. I don't know why you would want to, but at least you can.

Sorry. I couldn't resist.
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Old 09-02-2005, 04:53 PM   #36  
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Default Finally a good answer!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by intrac
NTSC is used primarily in North America. PAL & SECAM are used in other parts of the world. NTSC is 525 lines, PAL & SECAM are 625 lines with different frame rates.



There are 3 main standards in use around the world.





N T S C

NationalTelevisionSystemCommittee



Lines/Field525/60

Horizontal Frequency15.734 kHz

Vertical Frequency60 Hz

Color Subcarrier Frequency3.579545 MHz

Video Bandwidth4.2 MHzSound Carrier4.5 MHz






P A L

PhaseAlternatingLine



SYSTEM






PAL & PAL N Line/Field 625/50

PAL M 525/60

PAL & PAL N Horizontal Freq.15.625 kHz

PAL M 15.750 kHz

PAL & PAL N Vertical Freq.50 Hz

PAL M 60 Hz

PAL Color Sub Carrier4.433618 MHz

PAL N Color Sub Carrier 3.582056 MHz

PAL M Color Sub Carrier 3.575611 MHz

PAL Video Bandwidth 5.0 MHz

PAL N Video Bandwidth 4.2 MHz

PLAL M Video Bandwidth 4.2 MHz

PAL & PAL N Sound Carrier 5.5 MHzPAL M Sound Carrier 4.5 MHz






SECAM

SequentialCouleurAvecMemoire
or Sequential Color with Memory







SECAM All Line/Field 625/50

SECAM All Horizontal Frequency15.625 kHz

SECAM All Vertical Frequency50 Hz

SECAM B, G, H Video Bandwidth5.0 MHz

SECAM D, K, K1, L Video Bandwidth 6.0 MHz

SECAM B, G, H Sound Carrier5.5 MHz

SECAM D, K, K1, L Sound Carrier 6.5 MHz







Thnks to folks like you those who are ignorant have a chance to understand. But mention that NTCS was adopted in the 1930's ? or so by a group of bald old farts who were dead well before TV was available! Due to their actions we all pay the price of Fuzzy, out of focus Tv!! So when we see what they offer on a big screen, no wonder HD is a miracle!! I never voted for G Bush!!
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Old 09-02-2005, 05:07 PM   #37  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSawdey
intrac, check your own specs... there's no difference in spatial or temporal res between PAL & SECAM... they just use different color models. The unusual PAL-M variant comes from Northern Japan, where they use the Euro TV standard, but North American electricity (120v @ 60 Hz)... it ends up with the same lower spatial res and higher temporal res just like NTSC (480i/30).

When I saw 1080i I didn't have Peter's rapturous experience... it was more like "they improved it, but it's still broke"... for me, the big deal is progressive scan & higher framerates. It has always been aknowledged that interlacing is an engineering workaround that came at a price in the accuracy of the image, twitter & combing. I always thought the ATSC should have abandoned interlace, legacy = impediment to progress... electronics has progressed to the point where the higher scan rates of progressive displays & cameras are no problem at all and only add a small amount to the cost.

One interesting thing to note, the Euro version of the digital TV standard makes framerate allowances, but maintains the same spatial resolutions as the North American version... 1280 x 720p @ 50 Hz, and 1920 x 1080i @ 25 Hz for example. While 480p/50 isn't likely to be seen as a huge improvement on 525i/25, I'd think 720p/50 would be vastly superior to current interlaced analog. 1080p/25 has the advantage (over 1080i/30) that the lower framerate allows it to fit in the available 6 MHz channel bandwidth while retaining it's progressive nature. 1080p/24 is part of the North American standard, and is the preferred format for transfer of film to digital video. It CAN be broadcast, but I think most stations are performing 3:2 pullup to send their usually 1080i/30 stream as effectively 1080p/30 (but still only 24 unique frames). This would better be done in the receiver, since 60 Hz displays could use a smoother upsampling.
Isn't it the another way around? i.e. movies shot in HD at 1080p/24 such as:Collateral and Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, etc are transferred to *film* for distribution to theaters who don't have DLP projectors?
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Old 09-02-2005, 05:47 PM   #38  
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It is too difficult to distribute 1080p programming via cable and dish because they are struggling with the bandwidth they have now just to put out 720p and 1080i. All I have to say is that hopefully once the analog channels are finally shut down forever, they can use the extra bandwidth for better HD channeling and more important functions.
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Old 09-03-2005, 07:47 PM   #39  
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Question When?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wolf
It is too difficult to distribute 1080p programming via cable and dish because they are struggling with the bandwidth they have now just to put out 720p and 1080i. All I have to say is that hopefully once the analog channels are finally shut down forever, they can use the extra bandwidth for better HD channeling and more important functions.
When that happens, will Comcast distribute free "digital to analog" converters to avoid losing part of their subscriber base? That's gotta be a tough decision regarding when to throw the switch. On the one hand, they want to use the analog bandwidth to pacify people like me who constantly hound for more digital and especially HDTV. But on the other hand, I'm sure they don't want to tick anyone off by having them come home to a non-functional TV one day. They'd be answering phones 24/7 for about 6 months.....
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Old 09-03-2005, 08:54 PM   #40  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatManDoo
When that happens, will Comcast distribute free "digital to analog" converters to avoid losing part of their subscriber base? That's gotta be a tough decision regarding when to throw the switch. On the one hand, they want to use the analog bandwidth to pacify people like me who constantly hound for more digital and especially HDTV. But on the other hand, I'm sure they don't want to tick anyone off by having them come home to a non-functional TV one day. They'd be answering phones 24/7 for about 6 months.....
Why would they lose any subscriber base? When the dropdead date is finalized it will be for OTA only. It does not apply to cable or the sats. Just like we all receive both analog and digital right now we will continue to as many cable and sat channels will never change over to digital. And right now TWC has gone totally digital in the Raleigh, NC area and it doesn't affect those that have ten year old sets. The government will never allow the masses to come home to non-functional televisions.
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Old 09-03-2005, 09:15 PM   #41  
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Question Digital > Analog

Quote:
Originally Posted by HughScot
Why would they lose any subscriber base? When the dropdead date is finalized it will be for OTA only. It does not apply to cable or the sats. Just like we all receive both analog and digital right now we will continue to as many cable and sat channels will never change over to digital. And right now TWC has gone totally digital in the Raleigh, NC area and it doesn't affect those that have ten year old sets. The government will never allow the masses to come home to non-functional televisions.
Based on the comment about when "analog channels are finally shut down forever". If someone has an old analog set how would it handle a digital signal from a Cable company without a converter? I'm confused
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Old 09-05-2005, 12:22 PM   #42  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatManDoo
Based on the comment about when "analog channels are finally shut down forever". If someone has an old analog set how would it handle a digital signal from a Cable company without a converter? I'm confused
When your television receives its signal from a cable box or sat. box the tv acts as a monitor. The "box" is the tuner. Only for OTA signals do you need a "converter" box........or as it is commonly called a STB. Hope this helps.
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Old 09-06-2005, 03:13 PM   #43  
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I think the definition of STB is much broader, 'set top box' could be any kind of external tuner device...

All the HD STBs have analog outputs, so all can function as 'downconverters' of digital signals for sets with only analog inputs.
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Old 09-06-2005, 03:23 PM   #44  
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But curiously the new HD boxes seem to be missing the RF outputs, so if you have an older TV, or you were using a coax to another TV (like in the kitchen) you will need to add a RF modulator. We just had that issue come up.
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Old 09-06-2005, 03:42 PM   #45  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSawdey
I think the definition of STB is much broader, 'set top box' could be any kind of external tuner device...

All the HD STBs have analog outputs, so all can function as 'downconverters' of digital signals for sets with only analog inputs.
My bad. I was not thinking broadly enough and was only considering the STBs we have been using to view HD OTA. So you will need a box that has an ATSC tuner.
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