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Confusion over high-definition TV

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Old 03-28-2005, 03:22 PM   #16  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intrac
The CableCard effectively replaces the STB. The cable feeds right into the set with the ATSC tuner, and the set then decodes the encrypted signals. The current CableCards are only 1-way, so you can't have VOD, however the next release of the CableCards are said to be 2-way, but the set has to be able to accept it.

On a set with CableCard, you eliminate 1 extra step of decoding and the picture is a little better, because you are not inputing the signal via HDMI/DVI or component inputs.

The 5.1 audio is part of the cable or OTA signal.
Then the television must have a digital audio output to go to a receiver or you would be able to hear the 5.1.
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Old 03-29-2005, 03:09 PM   #17  
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Originally Posted by HughScot
Then the television must have a digital audio output to go to a receiver or you would be able to hear the 5.1.
This depends on the set. Some will have a 5.1 audio built-in, but nearly all have a 5.1 optical output for external amplifiers.
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Old 03-29-2005, 03:29 PM   #18  
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Originally Posted by intrac
This depends on the set. Some will have a 5.1 audio built-in, but nearly all have a 5.1 optical output for external amplifiers.
Sorry for my typo, forgot the "not". Some may have 5.1 audio built in but not too many people looking for a home theater experience will be satisfied with it.
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Old 04-01-2005, 01:13 PM   #19  
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I've heard they are working on a newer version of CableCard that will have dual channels so you won't need two cards for a dual tuner HD-DVR... but I HAVEN'T heard about new hardware related to two-way transmission - only liscensing agreements & service agreements. Perhaps no hardware changes are needed for two-way... just firmware & liscensing.

If that's the case, then one thing holding up the new release of STBs & built in tuners could be the two-way agreements (and the GD broadcast flag). Wouldn't THAT be nice!
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Old 04-01-2005, 03:41 PM   #20  
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Originally Posted by RSawdey
I've heard they are working on a newer version of CableCard that will have dual channels so you won't need two cards for a dual tuner HD-DVR... but I HAVEN'T heard about new hardware related to two-way transmission - only liscensing agreements & service agreements. Perhaps no hardware changes are needed for two-way... just firmware & liscensing.
If that's the case, then one thing holding up the new release of STBs & built in tuners could be the two-way agreements (and the GD broadcast flag). Wouldn't THAT be nice!
I saw somewhere that a few set manufacturers have signed on to provide 2-way CableCards which is supposed to enable all the stuff STBs do.

The STB suppliers won't be happy, and the cable providers won't be happy with the lost revenue
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Old 04-02-2005, 11:50 AM   #21  
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The two-way agreement is called CableCARD(TM) Host Interface Licensing Agreement (CHILA). So far Panasonic, Samsung and LG have signed up for this.
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Old 04-02-2005, 04:15 PM   #22  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatManDoo
Here is a quote from the article:



Is this correct? I realize Component Cables are not as good as DVI and HDMI, but is it not Hi-Def just because you have CC's ?

And that 1.3% figure seems more than a little bit suspect to me. Does this mean that 98.7% of the Flat Panels in the UK are EDTV?

Many people mention that lack of information about HDTV is a problem in getting everyone "digital and HD", but I think articles that contain misinformation are an even bigger problem because they CONFUSE the very people we're trying to win over to the HD side.

Thanks for the article though. It was interesting to see that Europe appears to be BEHIND the U.S. in converting to HD (if that's correct).
Hi, just passing when I was googling... hello from the UK!

"HD Ready" has a very specific meaning in the UK. The sole satellite provider (Sky) have stated that they will only broadcast encrtypted content over HDCP. Whilst their HD Sky+ box will have component outputs they will only be enabled for FTA broadcasts (also their encryption is completely proprietaty and no 3rd party boxes are ever going to be available - it's buy from them or don't have satellite basically (unless you can speak german/french and like the euro stuff))

The upshot of this is that a non-HDCP panel is going to be essentially useless.

Also, there are no HD broadcasts here (unless you count Euro1080 which needs a separate dish as it's not on Astra2D).

There are a *lot* (ie. 98.7% is about right) of LCD screens which are only 480 pixels. Since our analogue broadcasts are 625 lines we immediately notice the difference and they quite frankly look crap. Most 42" screens are this resolution as well, and you can imagine what that looks like.

There are only a couple of models of 'HD Ready' screens (the standard is barely 6 months old) and they retail for £2000+ (~$4000), therefore they sell mostly to enthusiasts. They're not mainstream technology yet.

1.3% HD ownership is probably optimistic at this point.

OTOH we have very high takeup of widescreen and digital TV (DTT, which will probably never have the bandwidth for HD).
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Old 04-02-2005, 04:34 PM   #23  
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The North American standard is NTSC at 525 lines, but you have to subtract a lot of lost lines so for the most part, you're lucky to receive 250 lines by cable, and around 350 lines OTA.

Digital OTA is 480p, 720p and 1080i. I doubt if we'll ever see 1080p.

This URL has some good info: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html

Last edited by intrac; 04-02-2005 at 04:40 PM..
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Old 04-02-2005, 10:44 PM   #24  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Hoyle
Hi, just passing when I was googling... hello from the UK!

"HD Ready" has a very specific meaning in the UK. The sole satellite provider (Sky) have stated that they will only broadcast encrtypted content over HDCP. Whilst their HD Sky+ box will have component outputs they will only be enabled for FTA broadcasts (also their encryption is completely proprietaty and no 3rd party boxes are ever going to be available - it's buy from them or don't have satellite basically (unless you can speak german/french and like the euro stuff))

The upshot of this is that a non-HDCP panel is going to be essentially useless.

Also, there are no HD broadcasts here (unless you count Euro1080 which needs a separate dish as it's not on Astra2D).

There are a *lot* (ie. 98.7% is about right) of LCD screens which are only 480 pixels. Since our analogue broadcasts are 625 lines we immediately notice the difference and they quite frankly look crap. Most 42" screens are this resolution as well, and you can imagine what that looks like.

There are only a couple of models of 'HD Ready' screens (the standard is barely 6 months old) and they retail for £2000+ (~$4000), therefore they sell mostly to enthusiasts. They're not mainstream technology yet.

1.3% HD ownership is probably optimistic at this point.

OTOH we have very high takeup of widescreen and digital TV (DTT, which will probably never have the bandwidth for HD).
Thanks for the confirmation and for saving me a lot of money. I would have bet my bottom EURO that the figures in that article were misguided. It's just that Europe is often much more progressive in many areas as compared to the US, and Philips is one of the leading non-Asian manufacturers of panels and displays. I guess I underestimated America's love affair with TV's and sofas. Sorry to hear about life without much prospect for HDTV.
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Old 04-03-2005, 11:39 AM   #25  
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Europe had widescreens that double scan the 50 Hz refresh since 1991, and they have 525 lines to our 480... rather like EDTV.

Digital Terrestrial Television works just fine for HDTV... ask the Australians!

Interesting the Mr. Faroudja made an impassioned speech at the last IBC, asking Europe to not adopt any interlaced resolutions... and if anyone should understand the problems of interlacing, it's him!
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Old 04-03-2005, 01:16 PM   #26  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSawdey
Europe had widescreens that double scan the 50 Hz refresh since 1991, and they have 525 lines to our 480... rather like EDTV.

Digital Terrestrial Television works just fine for HDTV... ask the Australians!

Interesting the Mr. Faroudja made an impassioned speech at the last IBC, asking Europe to not adopt any interlaced resolutions... and if anyone should understand the problems of interlacing, it's him!
NTSC is used primarily in North America. PAL & SECAM are used in other parts of the world. NTSC is 525 lines, PAL & SECAM are 625 lines with different frame rates.



There are 3 main standards in use around the world.





N T S C

NationalTelevisionSystemCommittee



Lines/Field525/60

Horizontal Frequency15.734 kHz

Vertical Frequency60 Hz

Color Subcarrier Frequency3.579545 MHz

Video Bandwidth4.2 MHzSound Carrier4.5 MHz






P A L

PhaseAlternatingLine



SYSTEM






PAL & PAL N Line/Field 625/50

PAL M 525/60

PAL & PAL N Horizontal Freq.15.625 kHz

PAL M 15.750 kHz

PAL & PAL N Vertical Freq.50 Hz

PAL M 60 Hz

PAL Color Sub Carrier4.433618 MHz

PAL N Color Sub Carrier 3.582056 MHz

PAL M Color Sub Carrier 3.575611 MHz

PAL Video Bandwidth 5.0 MHz

PAL N Video Bandwidth 4.2 MHz

PLAL M Video Bandwidth 4.2 MHz

PAL & PAL N Sound Carrier 5.5 MHzPAL M Sound Carrier 4.5 MHz






SECAM

SequentialCouleurAvecMemoire
or Sequential Color with Memory







SECAM All Line/Field 625/50

SECAM All Horizontal Frequency15.625 kHz

SECAM All Vertical Frequency50 Hz

SECAM B, G, H Video Bandwidth5.0 MHz

SECAM D, K, K1, L Video Bandwidth 6.0 MHz

SECAM B, G, H Sound Carrier5.5 MHz

SECAM D, K, K1, L Sound Carrier 6.5 MHz









Last edited by intrac; 04-03-2005 at 01:31 PM..
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Old 04-03-2005, 02:27 PM   #27  
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In addition to the "lines" for each system, a comparison to the full resolution for NTSC is approximately 720 x 480. The frame rate is 29.97 fps, which is very close to (but not the same as) 30 fps. PAL or SECAM have a full resolution of approximately 768 x 576. The frame rate is exactly 25 fps.

So the North American system has slightly less resolution and slightly less flicker.
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Old 04-03-2005, 09:02 PM   #28  
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Their biggest flaw is the low framerate... every time I go to Europe the flicker bothers me for about a week while my eyes adjust... double refreshing with a so-called 100 Hz set does wonders.

I've often wondered why we haven't just adopted a world standard of 24 or 48 frames per second since film is the common world standard (24 fps, double refreshed to 48).

Wouldn't a single world digital format of 1600 x 900 @ 48 fps have been nice? Would have made several things simpler...
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Old 04-09-2005, 10:20 AM   #29  
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Hi,
I agree with Mr. Wizard. On the positive side those who have been on the pal system all these years have been getting much better PQ than our ntsc. Don't know if it's true but I've heard pal described as being somewhere between dvd and HD in PQ.

When we in North America started getting 1080i instead of 480i we thought we had died and gone to heaven. In fact we have.

Pal to HD will probably be less startalling, unless they went directly to 1080p. The hardware is starting to come out, but as history and the HD/BluRay camps are about to again experience.

It's software that sells hardware.
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Old 04-09-2005, 12:55 PM   #30  
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intrac, check your own specs... there's no difference in spatial or temporal res between PAL & SECAM... they just use different color models. The unusual PAL-M variant comes from Northern Japan, where they use the Euro TV standard, but North American electricity (120v @ 60 Hz)... it ends up with the same lower spatial res and higher temporal res just like NTSC (480i/30).

When I saw 1080i I didn't have Peter's rapturous experience... it was more like "they improved it, but it's still broke"... for me, the big deal is progressive scan & higher framerates. It has always been aknowledged that interlacing is an engineering workaround that came at a price in the accuracy of the image, twitter & combing. I always thought the ATSC should have abandoned interlace, legacy = impediment to progress... electronics has progressed to the point where the higher scan rates of progressive displays & cameras are no problem at all and only add a small amount to the cost.

One interesting thing to note, the Euro version of the digital TV standard makes framerate allowances, but maintains the same spatial resolutions as the North American version... 1280 x 720p @ 50 Hz, and 1920 x 1080i @ 25 Hz for example. While 480p/50 isn't likely to be seen as a huge improvement on 525i/25, I'd think 720p/50 would be vastly superior to current interlaced analog. 1080p/25 has the advantage (over 1080i/30) that the lower framerate allows it to fit in the available 6 MHz channel bandwidth while retaining it's progressive nature. 1080p/24 is part of the North American standard, and is the preferred format for transfer of film to digital video. It CAN be broadcast, but I think most stations are performing 3:2 pullup to send their usually 1080i/30 stream as effectively 1080p/30 (but still only 24 unique frames). This would better be done in the receiver, since 60 Hz displays could use a smoother upsampling.
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