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Upconversion players vs HD DVD, Blur-ray

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Old 12-25-2007, 02:35 AM   #76  
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Well then I would argue the same about HD DVD. It has a lot of nice features, but it falls short in a number of key areas (like lower picture quality at only 30 Mbit/s).
Bah, Humbug. You know that isn't true in the real world and you can just reread the Casey interview for all the proof you need.
I am an engineer; I examine NUMBERS not opinions.

SD DVD == ~10 Megabit/s
HD DVD == ~30 Megabit/s
Blu-ray == ~50 Megabit/s

Everyone knows that when you compare two identical movies, both recorded using the same codec, the higher the "speed" of the data, the better the picture will look to the eye. More of the original data is preserved.
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Old 12-25-2007, 08:55 PM   #77  
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Default Pictures look the same

I thought I was done with this go-nowhere thread, but wanted to add one more comment on the picture quality. I was in Tulsa for Christmas with family and stopped off at the BB near the Woodland Hills Mall. Talked with a guy who had just bought the last combo (both BD & HD-DVD) player and was now stocking up on movies.

He told me that this BB had a display with a split screen, HD-DVD on one side and BD on the other and that BD was MUCH BETTER than HD-DVD. I told him that I had not been able to tell any difference in any of the displays I had seen, but went to see what he was looking at.

There it was - at the BD display, the split screen with SD-DVD on one side and BD on the other - he was just mixed up. This is the same cheezy display where the SD-DVD picture looks worse than any DVD I have ever seen so as to enhance the difference with the BD picture. The store did have both BD & HD-DVD displays, all with stunning pictures, and once again, I could not and cannot see any difference between HD-DVD and BD.

One of the problems with comparing the picture of BD and HD-DVD is that they are NEVER side by side. Generally they are at least two end caps away from each other and playing different material, so it is very hard to compare the two. But I suspect that if someone did put the two side by side and played the exact same movies, we would not be able to tell them apart.

I have people over all the time for football games, DVD & HD-DVD movies, and what I have discovered is MOST OF THE MY GUESTS CANNOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MY UPCONVERTED SD-DVD AND THE HD-DVD PICTURE. To me the difference is like night and day, but honestly, most of them cannot tell the difference.

They can tell the difference in the SD and HD television broadcasts, partly because SD looks crappy on my HD television. So they are willing to buy an HD television, but we are going to have a tough sell trying to convice the public that they need to spend $299 (sale price) on a BD player to get a picture that most feel is not any better than the upconverted SD-DVD.

Chris feels that the only shot high def movies has is for HD-DVD to fail or bow out. Let me turn that around. If $299 is the best BD can do, the best shot for high def movies to be more than a niche product is for BD to fail or step aside and the studios get behind HD-DVD. $98 HD-DVD players are in the price range that John Q. Public will pay, especially if the movies are available in the HD-DVD format.

What a lame thread! I go away for Christmas, and when I come back we are talking about VHS and Betamax and arguing over which obsolete format was better.
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Old 12-26-2007, 06:58 AM   #78  
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I'm not sure why people think Blu-ray should "bow out"?

Blu-ray was invented first.
HD DVD was created later.

If anybody should bow out, it should be the format that was developed second.
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Old 12-26-2007, 09:39 AM   #79  
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Default No one should bow out - this is the market working

We have two competing products that both have a right to be here. The market will determine if one or both survives. My comment was in response to Chris' continued remarks that BD is the only hope for high def movies and that HD-DVD should bow out or fail.

IMO, both are going to hang around for a long time, which is why I plan to buy a BD player in 2008. It doesn't matter to me who was here first (BD) or who is the officially "sanctioned" successor to DVD (HD-DVD).
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:03 AM   #80  
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Originally Posted by electrictroy View Post
I am an engineer; I examine NUMBERS not opinions.

SD DVD == ~10 Megabit/s
HD DVD == ~30 Megabit/s
Blu-ray == ~50 Megabit/s

Everyone knows that when you compare two identical movies, both recorded using the same codec, the higher the "speed" of the data, the better the picture will look to the eye. More of the original data is preserved.
Numbers are a decent way of measuring in some cases, but not in this. Since the human eye is what is viewing the material, if no difference in the numbers can be seen, then the numbers don't matter.

I could sell you tickets to a Red Sox game. I can tell you I can give you two choices of seats. 1 seat is 25 rows back from the 3rd base line. The other seat is 20 rows back from the 3rd base line as well.

Based on the numbers, you'd pick the seat 20 rows back so you get a closer view, right? What the "numbers" don't tell you though is that the seat 20 rows back has an obstructed view and the one 25 rows back doesn't.

See - numbers aren't all that's important.

Quote:
Everyone knows that when you compare two identical movies, both recorded using the same codec, the higher the "speed" of the data, the better the picture will look to the eye. More of the original data is preserved.
Everyone also knows that there is a limit to what the human eye can perceive.
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:05 AM   #81  
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Originally Posted by electrictroy View Post
I'm not sure why people think Blu-ray should "bow out"?

Blu-ray was invented first.
HD DVD was created later.

If anybody should bow out, it should be the format that was developed second.
Increcibly FAULTY logic . . . . .

Ok, the CRT was invented first, so the LCD should "bow out".
And while we're at it, let's give America back to the Indians.
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Old 12-26-2007, 12:42 PM   #82  
What's all this, then?...
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electrictroy View Post
I am an engineer; I examine NUMBERS not opinions.

SD DVD == ~10 Megabit/s
HD DVD == ~30 Megabit/s
Blu-ray == ~50 Megabit/s

Everyone knows that when you compare two identical movies, both recorded using the same codec, the higher the "speed" of the data, the better the picture will look to the eye. More of the original data is preserved.
No, everyone but you knows that specs and perception are two different things. That's why we can watch a Blu-Ray movie in HD and think it looks great, even though it is severely compressed compared to the digital master and we can also watch the same film on HD DVD and see no difference, as the difference in compression between the best Blu-Ray has to offer and the best HD DVD has to offer is minute compared to how much compression both formats use compared to the original master.

I have been an electrical engineer for far longer than you. I have worked in CE for decades. Frankly, the only thing that matters to the vast majority of the market place is subjective opinions, not specs. If you want to have your opinion treated equally as valid as Casey's, then start your own company making what are acknowledged as the highest quality video presentations available--in which your professional reputation and your living is based on consumer's regard for your products--then maybe I'll listen.
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Old 12-26-2007, 12:50 PM   #83  
What's all this, then?...
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electrictroy View Post
I'm not sure why people think Blu-ray should "bow out"?

Blu-ray was invented first.
HD DVD was created later.

If anybody should bow out, it should be the format that was developed second.
Oh please!

Blu-Ray was invented as a recordable medium, not a mass-producible, read-only format.

HD DVD came to market first. Who cares what was invented first? HD DVD was perfected and marketed and sold first.

Blu-Ray has yet to perfect their format:

-It's still too expensive.

-They can't get a decent yield on 25GB discs.

-They still don't have all of their announced features working more than a year after introduction (and several years after being "invented").

It's obvious which one should bow out from a technical point of view.
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Old 12-26-2007, 01:26 PM   #84  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electrictroy View Post
I'm not sure why people think Blu-ray should "bow out"?

Blu-ray was invented first.
HD DVD was created later.

If anybody should bow out, it should be the format that was developed second.
Let's see if that logic worked in a similar situation....

Sony had the first stand-alone Betamax VCR in the United States, the SL-7200, it came on the market in February 1976 priced at $1295.

RCA announced the first stand-alone VHS called the VBT200 on August 23, 1977.

So Beta was marketed first....and if I remember correctly, they lost,
not that the timing had anything to do with it.

Just to show some dates in the current situation...

On March 31, 2006, Toshiba released their first HD DVD player and the first HD DVD titles were released on April 18, 2006.

The first Blu-Ray players were shipped in the middle of June 2006 and the first Blu-ray Disc titles were released on June 20, 2006.

I'm pretty sure the timing of release won't have anything to do with who wins this war either.
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Old 12-26-2007, 02:20 PM   #85  
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Sorry, two corrections to my previous post. What I meant to say was:

HD DVD came to market first as a format for Hi-Def movies.

Blu-Ray can't get a decent yield on 50GB discs.
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:40 PM   #86  
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BTW, the maximum video bit rate of Blu-Ray is 40Mbs, not 50Mbs--even the maximum *total* bit rate of Blu-Ray (video, audio and data) is under 50Mbs.
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Old 12-27-2007, 05:33 AM   #87  
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Jupiter says that consumers may not embrace either HD DVD or Blu-ray. Instead, upconversion may be good enough for many. Don't know, but interesting.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/jupiter102907.htm
Coming back to the topic...

I have all 3 players, an upconverting Oppo, an HD DVD and Blu-Ray players.

The Oppo upconverting and universal player provides me with better video for SD DVD than the 2 others. But this picture quality is dependent on the quality of the DVD. Recent SD DVD releases are vastly improved over those of a few years ago. Therefore, a recent release for SD DVD can satisfy many.

But, the picture quality does not match those of my HD players. The close up shots in HD is better but the main difference is the resolution of background scenes which is clear in HD and blurred in SD DVD and even the Oppo cannot correct that.

And now I rent HD DVD and Blu-Ray movies from a mail in rental service and rent an occasional SD DVD from a local rental service. The mail in rental service rents the HD movies for the same price as for SD DVD. So, I only rent HD movies from them.

HD movies and HD concerts, a particular interest for me, offer better audio... lossless audio. And that in itself, is reason enough to get an HD player which can decode lossless audio. And that's what I have. Elton John 60 in Blu-Ray should arrive in the next days and Celine Dion's "A New Day", also in Blu-Ray should get here in February. The first one has uncompressed PCM audio.
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Old 12-27-2007, 05:54 AM   #88  
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I have all 3 players, an upconverting Oppo, an HD DVD and Blu-Ray players.
I have good reason to believe that Oppo will make a Blu-ray/SACD/DVD-A/DVD-V/HDCD player if the format war can end favorably for Blu-ray. Oppo is supposed to release a new SACD/DVD-A/DVD-V/HDCD player soon, the DV-983H but I don't know when that will happen. My standard universal DVD players are still the workhorses of my systems and the Oppo DV-980H is my favorite among my fleet of players.

I think demand for SACD/DVD-A players is dwindling and although we saw quite a number released in 2007, I don't think that will happen again next year. The format war needs to be settled so manufacturers can focus on a given market that has growth potential again. Despite all of the hoopla here about the improved sales for HD DVD with the Black Friday sales, standard DVD players outsold HD DVD by a huge margin then and by even greater ratios since that heavy promotion. I have no reason to believe that any HD DVD/SACD/DVD-A players are being considered and the only rumor about a possible Blu-ray/HD DVD/SACD/DVD-A player comes from a Denon executive comment. The Denon player if it happens will be priced very high.

Chris
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:23 AM   #89  
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Both formats have an uphill battle to fight. Standard DVDs outsold Blu-Ray by a substantial margin as well.
12/7/2007
"High-def player sales still just 10% of standard DVD
. . .
HD DVD commanded the lion’s share of unit sales for stand-alone high-def disc players, scoring a 62% unit share; Blu-ray held 37%."
http://www.videobusiness.com/index.a...leid=CA6510883

So far, Blu-Ray & HD-DVD sales have been to "early adopters" The general public (mass market) have yet to speak.

"The demographics of the next wave of high-def adopters, who are considered more price-conscious than the earlier adopters, might work to sway the format war in HD DVD’s favor, according to research firm The Diffusion Group." http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6511468.html

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35221/113/
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Old 12-27-2007, 07:09 AM   #90  
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Both formats have an uphill battle to fight. Standard DVDs outsold Blu-Ray by a substantial margin as well.
So what? Who is complaining?

Studios are not in any hurry. Doesn't cost any more to Universal or Paramount to have HD DVD discs pressed compared to SD DVD. There is a cost factor over SD DVD to produce Blu-Ray disc's but there's no evidence that Disney, Fox and others are getting impatient.

Studios want to sell movies... in any shape or form.
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