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LG Wins DTV Converter Box Certification

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Old 10-19-2007, 06:45 PM   #46  
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The results still aren't as good keeping the signals separate in the first place as the comb filter can't completely avoid filtering the Luma signal and reducing the sharpness.

It basically removes the Chroma subcarrier frequency and it's harmonics, but that inevitably removes some of the Luma information as well (although it does eliminate the crosstalk problem and most of the issues associated with it--false colors, fringing, dot crawl).
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Old 10-19-2007, 07:02 PM   #47  
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The results still aren't as good keeping the signals separate in the first place as the comb filter can't completely avoid filtering the Luma signal and reducing the sharpness.

It basically removes the Chroma subcarrier frequency and it's harmonics, but that inevitably removes some of the Luma information as well (although it does eliminate the crosstalk problem and most of the issues associated with it--false colors, fringing, dot crawl).
Take it for what it is worth:

I have done my own personal study of the three NTSC Video connections using a 2002 Toshiba 32" CRT NTSC TV and a DVD player.

I played about 5 minutes of one of the Captain Scarlet episodes using all three connections one at a time - same signal (I used a 4x3 image to fill the screen with no bars so all the lines on the TV are showing image info)

The Component looks the best of the 3 but all it does it look "cleaner" as far as the image. Maybe a bit more "crisp" in detail. Not by much.

No improvement from Composite to S-Video.

This is a subjective test because I preformed it. I am trying to be honest. No agenda here. But again - my opinion.
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Old 10-19-2007, 09:34 PM   #48  
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I believe you.

Now try it with something that isn't CGI animation.

Even the best CGI has about an order of magnitude less detail than a live image (except for scenes where they use fractals to add spurious detail).

I honestly don't see anywhere near as much difference between a CGI film in SD and HD as between a live-action film in SD and HD.
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Old 10-19-2007, 09:51 PM   #49  
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1997 and on they were very popular to go with DVD so there may be more than you realize. That's 9 years of production. But I am guessing that this connection will be limited to 32" and above size TV's. AFAIK - all NTSC RPTV's had it.

As far as the Composite connection - the 3D Comb filter would seperate the chroma from the luma and some TV's had very good ones.
Component-video inputs were on most decent CRT analogue sets with 20" or larger screen by 2000. I have a 24" Sony Wega CRT with a single component-video input and a 27" JVC I'Art CRT with 2 component-video inputs. They are resticted to 480i on both TV's. On the JVC set I am using both; one for a DVD player and the other for an ATSC tuner.

I intend to get one of the new Digital boxes in early 2008 for the 24" set. Of course I'll have to pay full price because I am not eligible for a rebate coupon (I don't live in the USA but I watch more US stations than I do Canadian ones).
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Old 10-20-2007, 05:55 AM   #50  
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I believe you.

Now try it with something that isn't CGI animation.

Even the best CGI has about an order of magnitude less detail than a live image (except for scenes where they use fractals to add spurious detail).

I honestly don't see anywhere near as much difference between a CGI film in SD and HD as between a live-action film in SD and HD.
No CGI - Captain Scarlet was one of the puppet TV shows - like The Thunderbirds - from the 1960's
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Old 10-20-2007, 09:54 AM   #51  
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Sorry, I thought you were talking about the more recent CGI series.

I'm not sure I would use the Supermarionation shows as a reference either, since they had almost no footage of "real world" things--everything was miniature sets and models with correspondingly lower levels of detail (although Derek Meddings understood the importance of loading up the models with details to give them a sense of scale).

IIRC sorrectly, my Fireball XL-5 DVD set was made from telecine transfers and not the original film footage, so again, I'm not sure they would have the resolution to see any difference between Composite and S-Video. (and of course, with Fireball XL-5, color is a moot point ).

Actually, B&W shows are a good test. When watching B&W programs, you will often get false color aliases when using Composite Video (depends on the quality of the comb filter), while you only see grayscale with S-Video. It's particularly easy to see on the small lettering of light credits on a dark background.
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:05 PM   #52  
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IIRC sorrectly, my Fireball XL-5 DVD set was made from telecine transfers and not the original film footage, so again, I'm not sure they would have the resolution to see any difference between Composite and S-Video. (and of course, with Fireball XL-5, color is a moot point ).
Fireball XL-5? OMG! That series was from about 1962. I hope the telecine was not one made for Britain's ITV channel. They were broadcasting using the now defunct System A with its fantastic 405 scan-line video and AM sound. Geez! You could drive a tank through the gaps between the scan lines if your screen was larger than 12", but I digress.

Let us sing along with Don Spencer....

I wish I was a spaceman,
the fastest man alive.
I'd fly you round the universe
in Fireball XL-5....

P.S. Darn you, BobY. Now I can' get that silly song out of my head.
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Old 10-20-2007, 07:43 PM   #53  
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It looks like it was made from NTSC telecine. It almost has a kinescope quality to it. It's put out by A&E.

I love that theme, especially with the high-speed cuts of planets and the XL-5 during the end credits (looks like animation rather than wire work to me).

But you haven't really heard that song unless you've seen the episode "Space City Special", where Steve Zodiac sings it accompanied by musical backup from his crew (Robert the Robot on drums with a sax solo by Venus(!)--anybody remember the band "Quarterflash"?).
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Old 10-20-2007, 07:51 PM   #54  
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As as said previously - I have both Captain Scarlet and The Thunderbirds box sets. Both look great!
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Old 10-20-2007, 10:46 PM   #55  
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But you haven't really heard that song unless you've seen the episode "Space City Special", where Steve Zodiac sings it accompanied by musical backup from his crew (Robert the Robot on drums with a sax solo by Venus(!)--anybody remember the band "Quarterflash"?).
The theme song was released as a single in the UK at the time the series debuted. It got lots of air play, so I heard it often. I never actually watched the program because I was watching the BBC channel (also 405 scan-lines) at that time of day. The UK was a 2 channel universe at the time. (BBC2 with 625 scan-lines did not debut until 1964 and by that time I was back in Canada after an 8 year absence.)
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Old 10-21-2007, 10:34 AM   #56  
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NTSC is 640x480i.
No it isn't. It's 486 visible scanlines, with a bandwidth of 6 megahertz (approximately).

Being analog it has no horizontal maximum resolution... it is only limited by how big the "pipe" that carries the signal.
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So forget DVD . . it doesn't apply.
It does apply if you're using a DVD sent over S-video to an NTSC television.

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Originally Posted by electrictroy
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Originally Posted by Scottnot
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A digital-to-analog converter without S-video will look like crap.
Digital to analog, modulated to Channel 3 or 4 would be about as good a signal as one could get, and most likely better than any NTSC set has ever seen before.
Sorry Scott but that's false. I've spent a lot of time watching DVDs and games on my set, and you CAN get a better picture with better cables. To summarize:

- RF modulating to channels 3 or 4 == shit (picks-up interference from other electronics)
- Compositing chroma/luma == blurry & lo-resolution (420x480) since the C and L interfere with one another
- S-video == separated video == sharp images (700x480 with a clean source like DVD or PS2 or DTV)
Sorry, totally incorrect. It can be poor if implimented poorly (example a Radio Shack RF modulator using composite input to RF output for $19.95 = garbage in, garbage out. However, if starting with a full definition SD digital signal, conversion to baseband analog and modulating onto an RF carrier will provide the best possible input signal for a standard tv - far superior to either composite of S-video.
(mouth drops open). Where do YOU get off telling me I'm "totally incorrect". Not just incorrect but "totally" incorrect. As if I'm a worthless piece of scum.

Grrrr.

And DTV-to-RF is better than DTV-to-S-video??? That has to be one of the most idiotic, stupid, braindead things I've ever seen. Yes I can see how RF could be *as good as* composite if you can shield it from external over-the-air RF signals, but that's basically impossible; you get interference from local stations, and in-home electronics like refrigerators/dishwasher/etcetera.



But RF better than Separated-video with its distinct Luma and Chroma lines?????

Nuts.

- RF is a composite signal. That means it lays the chroma on-top of the luma signal. That means they have to be separated, and no TV can do that perfectly..... thus leading to reduced resolution Luma, and dot-crawl in the chroma. And thus I repeat: "A digital-to-analog converter without S-video will look like crap." S-video keeps the chroma and luma separate, and is the superior standard. I'll be buying for myself and my parents the digital-to-analog converter that has the S-video out.

Last edited by electrictroy; 10-21-2007 at 11:01 AM..
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Old 10-21-2007, 12:10 PM   #57  
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Ah Troy . . .

NTSC is 525 Vertical Scanning lines with 45 preforming housekeeping functions like picture sync. So there are ONLY 480 visible vertical scanning line.

The same holds true for HDTV - 1125 Vertical scanning lines with 45 for housekeeping with 1080 visible verticle scanning lines.
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Old 10-21-2007, 12:44 PM   #58  
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(mouth drops open). Where do YOU get off telling me I'm "totally incorrect". Not just incorrect but "totally" incorrect. As if I'm a worthless piece of scum.

Grrrr.

And DTV-to-RF is better than DTV-to-S-video??? That has to be one of the most idiotic, stupid, braindead things I've ever seen.
Hell, I was gonna apologize and drop the word "totally", but after being personally attacked by having my post referred to as "the most idiotic, stupid, braindead things . . ." . . . uh, well, never mind.


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Yes I can see how RF could be *as good as* composite if you can shield it from external over-the-air RF signals, but that's basically impossible; you get interference from local stations, and in-home electronics like refrigerators/dishwasher/etcetera.
Sorry, wrong again. To further explain the incorrectness of your previous post that "RF modulating to channels 3 or 4 == shit (picks-up interference from other electronics)".

You might ask yourself how is it that an RF modulated signal running in RG58, RG59 or similar shielded coax will be "more" susceptible to to "interference from local stations and in-home electronics" than the same signal running on the yellow rca cable which is also coaxial, only lower quality shielding, and transmission characteristics.
Seems to me it's gotta be as good or better.
If you can provide any technical reference that will prove otherwise, I'll be happy to study it and learn.

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But RF better than Separated-video with its distinct Luma and Chroma lines?????

Nuts.

- RF is a composite signal. That means it lays the chroma on-top of the luma signal. That means they have to be separated, and no TV can do that perfectly..... thus leading to reduced resolution Luma, and dot-crawl in the chroma. And thus I repeat: "A digital-to-analog converter without S-video will look like crap." S-video keeps the chroma and luma separate, and is the superior standard. I'll be buying for myself and my parents the digital-to-analog converter that has the S-video out.
Obviously you're not following the thread very closely troy, I already said in my post #39:
Quote:
In the case which this thread is addressing, no doubt, I was incorrect.
Since the original (and "best possible") signal is digital and therefore the chroma and luma components have already been separated by studio quality equipment, the more that they are "put back together", the greater the deterioration in pq.
So, I humbly revise my earlier comment as follows:
S-Video = should be the best possible output
Composite or RF coax will be lower quality than S-Video, but most likely equal in pq.

Sorry for the screw-up.
However, as for "A digital-to-analog converter without S-video will look like crap." Still gotta disagree - most likely it will look no worse than the consumer is used to seeing from OTA which is composite and often degraded by weak signal. So, either composite or RF Coax will most likely provide as good or better quality picture than most consumers are accustomed to; while S-video will most likely provide further improvement. No "crap", just better than before or even better yet.
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Old 10-21-2007, 05:14 PM   #59  
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The theme song was released as a single in the UK at the time the series debuted. It got lots of air play, so I heard it often. I never actually watched the program because I was watching the BBC channel (also 405 scan-lines) at that time of day. The UK was a 2 channel universe at the time. (BBC2 with 625 scan-lines did not debut until 1964 and by that time I was back in Canada after an 8 year absence.)
I never heard the single, but I can tell you the "extended" version heard in "Space City Special" is killer.

Does the version you've heard have the sax solo?

Seriously, this is good stuff. Did you ever hear "Blues Pacifica" from "Stingray"?
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Old 10-21-2007, 10:06 PM   #60  
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I never heard the single, but I can tell you the "extended" version heard in "Space City Special" is killer.

Does the version you've heard have the sax solo?
I don't remember the details, BobY. It's not senility but it was 45 years ago. I'll see if I can find a downloadable copy on a UK web site that deals with records of that era.
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