High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
Rules HDTV Forum Gallery LINK TO US! RSS - High Def Forum AddThis Feed Button AddThis Social Bookmark Button Groups

High Definition News & Informative Articles Get the Latest High Definition News & Informative Articles Here! Please post newsworthy information here only! This forum is NOT for your first post. Thank you!

LG Wins DTV Converter Box Certification

Reply
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-09-2007, 08:05 PM   #16  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianO View Post
Always? Hardly. There was a time when TV was VHF only.
Let's not take it to absurdity, ok. That would be a pretty picky point, which is why I did not delve into the history of television.

Quote:
In the USA Channels 70 to 83 were removed from the spectrum allocated to broadcast TV many years ago. Channels 52 to 69 will be removed on February 18, 2009. Channel 37 has been reserved for radio astronomy applications since the early days of UHF TV broadcasting.
Ok, so for some years now, "we" have been allocated 67 channels rather than the 81 channels that was my understanding.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

So, as a result of the "digital revolution", we will "lose" 18 channels, leaving us with 49 channels (capable, as I understand it of delivering to us deprived users something like 200-250 SD programs or 49 "full HD" programs or some mix of the two vs the analog system which was limited to 49 SD programs and for all practical purpose no HD or perhaps 10 at most). Now, my math might not be perfect, nor my understanding "dead nuts on", but for the life of me I can't see how this is not a benefit to "us".
billinprinceto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2007, 12:46 AM   #17  
Sony KD34XS955
 

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Pointe-Claire QC
Posts: 2,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billinprinceto View Post
Let's not take it to absurdity, ok. That would be a pretty picky point, which is why I did not delve into the history of television.
You said "always", Bill. And you were wrong at both ends of the time scale as far as the RF spectrum allocated to TV broadcasting is concerned. And "delve into the history of television" is precisely what you did in your post.
BrianO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2007, 07:12 AM   #18  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianO View Post
You said "always", Bill. And you were wrong . . .
Oh, was that your point??? OK
billinprinceto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2007, 07:46 AM   #19  
Former Super Moderator
 
Loves2Watch's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In Flux
Posts: 20,283
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post
LG Wins DTV Converter Box Certification
Wins? Well they were awarded certification as will be with other manufacturers.
Loves2Watch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2007, 08:41 AM   #20  
Not electrocuted yet.
 
tyromark's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 76
Default Airwaves in a Hobbesian "State of Nature"?

Or, we could just treat the public airwaves in a manner the libertarian wingnuts would like, and they'd all be rendered useless by an unorganized jamfest. While we're at it, lets remove all stop signs and lights from the roads, too...

Sounds like the coupon program is set to minimize public cost to let folks with older analog sets continue getting shows they've always gotten - no more, no less.
tyromark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2007, 10:06 AM   #21  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

Uhmm, who's talking about having no rules governing the airwaves?

I'm talking about arbitrary rules that are really meant to discourage people from using the coupons because the govenrment really doesn't want to have to do this and never would have if not pressed.

But they know, in their effort to rake in more money by selling the RF spectrum, they can't just totally screw everyone or they will pay for it somehow.

Exactly how many consumers/taxpayers demanded the government reallocate the RF spectrum and render their analog televisions unusable?
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2007, 10:45 AM   #22  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobY View Post
Exactly how many consumers/taxpayers demanded the government reallocate the RF spectrum and render their analog televisions unusable?
BobY, I can't follow you on that??

What could/should the "government" have done?
Just stayed with NTSC and 525 lines forever?
billinprinceto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2007, 11:40 AM   #23  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

You've should get it out of your head that the purpose of this was to upgrade TV for the American public.

Because of the amount of compression used on DTV, it became apparent that they didn't need to allocate as much of the RF spectrum to TV if analog TV was eliminated and everyone switched over to DTV. The freed up spectrum could them be sold to the highest bidder, raking in tons of money for the government.

The government doesn't care whether we are limited to 525 lines and neither do the people who are not currently watching HD broadcasts (I have to believe that's many tens of millions of people given the market penetration of HDTV's). It's pretty safe to say the majority of the American people did not push the government to do this. It was special interest groups and greed. It's the American people who are going to foot the bill for this, whether they buy their own ATSC tuners or have the government pay for them using their tax dollars.

I'd have to think there are also many millions of those people who don't have either cable or satellite and are therefore going to need one of these boxes when the switchover occurs.

You should also get it out of your head that this will be an improvement in quality. This is not an HDTV mandate, it's a DTV mandate. The vast majority of programming will be SD with 4:3 aspect ratio at 480i (and for DTV, that means 640 x 480, not DVD quality). It will be better in some ways (noise, ghosting) and worse in others (pixelation, macroblocking, freezing and blanking) as a result of the amount of digital compression the stations will use so they can maximize the use of their allocated bandwidth to maximize their profits.

All you need to do is look at all the complaints on this forum regarding how SD broadcasts look on their HDTV's.

I do think it's a good idea to move to all digital, as it paves the way for the future and certainly improvments in codecs will lead to better results, but it's going to be pretty ugly at the start. I think they should have done it in a more phased manner, possibly by region or spectrum segment, allowing the base of analog-only tuners to dwindle naturally.

Last edited by BobY; 10-10-2007 at 11:51 AM..
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2007, 02:02 PM   #24  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,121
Default

BobY, I gotta admit that much of your argument is compelling. At the same time, there are many points where I find myself almost at the opposite pole. And, indeed, many of the "sticky" points and issues would not be resolved by even the heartiest debate to the satisfaction of everyone. So, I'll limit my comment to only a single point on which I can offer some personal experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobY View Post
The government doesn't care whether we are limited to 525 lines and neither do the people who are not currently watching HD broadcasts . . . It's pretty safe to say the majority of the American people did not push the government to do this.
Well, on the one hand, there are those people who are content to sit in front of a crappy tv and watch the crappiest picture, and even when seeing a better picture on a higher quality tv (say at a friends house) just can't or don't want to see the difference. I would not want my options set by this minority as, if it were up to them, we would never have any progress.

On the other hand there is the larger majority of people who can detect small but significant differences in picture quality. Example: on my first journey overseas over 30 years ago, I was immediately taken by the obviously better quality of European television (at the time I assumed that they somehow were able to make better televisions than American manufacturer's). During ensuing years, I had many friends and colleagues who, upon seeing American televison, were prone to ask how we colonists could possibly live with and accept such horrible television quality. Eventually I learned that it was simply the difference between PAL and NTSC, the difference between 625 lines and 525 lines - you add 20% more lines and you get a immediately noticible better picture.

If I could have petitioned, joined a revolt or a march, or otherwise affected a change from NTSC to PAL, I would have jumped on board. Alas, this was not a burning issue for our society during the 70s, 80s and into the 90s. Meanwhile, I became aware that this was a known and often discussed issue among manufacturer's (the greedy) as well as within the FCC (the uncaring), who knew they would have to address the issue somehow, someday. Of course, ultimately it would need to be addressed and resolved by a "consortium", as it were, of big business interests and government interests toward a "common good" for the citizenry. To me it looks like there finally emerged an elegant confluence of disparate interests resulting in a step function improvement of television sets and available programming. Now, we will settle into a more evolutionary phase and in time (less than 15 years is my guess) 90% of all television programming will be of "HD quality".
billinprinceto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2007, 07:37 PM   #25  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

No way to know for sure, but IMHO this is not going to usher in a mass changeover to HDTV--if anything, it might even slow it down as everyone will have made a half-way step and a lot of them will be satisfied with that.

There is far too much infrastructure that would have to be replaced and little motivation for non-subscription networks to spend the money to upgrade to HD. They are willing to move forward with DTV because:

1) They have no choice, they will either be digital or off the air by government mandate.

2) They can multiplex their digital transmissions so that they can provide multiple services in the same bandwidth and thereby make more money.

Aside from the costs of upgrading to HD, there just isn't any motivation to spend that money unless their advertisers refuse to buy ads if they aren't HD. Viewers simply are not going to stop watching a channel because it's not HD, not if there is content people want to watch (your own observations demonstrate that) and there is a huge amount fo 4:3 content that won't really benefit from being upscaled to HD.
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2007, 08:39 AM   #26  
Wii 480p looks good to me
 

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,083
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbinck View Post
I think the government feels like by limiting the outputs there will be fewer coupons redemed since the only value for the box would be for analog TVs. Thus saving taxpayer money.
That doesn't explain why I can't use my $40 coupon to buy a Component Out converter. The gov't pays $40 and I pay the balance. What's wrong with that?

But no; instead I have to settle for a lousy Composite connection.


Other thoughts:

(1) NTSC was the most-advanced system at its birth. Europe was still using a system that only displayed ~350 visible lines.

(2) I saw PAL in Germany in 1990. The increase from 486 to 576 visible lines did not impress me (it's only 90 more lines; trivial). On the contrary, I thought the flickering (25 frames) was bad, and the color suffered comb-like affects. The only thought that sprung to my head was, "I'm glad we don't have this lousy pictures back home in America."

(3) If the FCC had waited just five more years, we could have MPEG4 digital. Instead they rushed the decision, refused to hear testimony about better codecs, and now we have MPEG2 with its horrible picture.

Last edited by electrictroy; 10-17-2007 at 09:04 AM..
electrictroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2007, 09:03 AM   #27  
Administrator
 
rbinck's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 16,971
Default

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbinck
I think the government feels like by limiting the outputs there will be fewer coupons redeemed since the only value for the box would be for analog TVs. Thus saving taxpayer money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by electrictroy

That doesn't explain why I can't use my $40 coupon to buy a Component Out converter. The gov't pays $40 and I pay the balance. What's wrong with that?

But no; instead I have to settle for a lousy Composite connection.

It may not explain it to you because of your bias of wanting to get a $40 discount on a converter box to, presumably, hook up to a HDTV sometime in the future. That very opinion is why they won't allow you to use the coupon for such a box. You and all others like you are less likely to redeem the coupons. QED.

Last edited by rbinck; 10-17-2007 at 09:07 AM..
rbinck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2007, 09:15 AM   #28  
Wii 480p looks good to me
 

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,083
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbinck View Post
It may not explain it to you because of your bias of wanting to get a $40 discount on a converter box to, presumabily, hook up to a HDTV sometime in the future.
Ahhh that sorta/kinda makes sense, except I still have some questions:



- Do they even make HDTVs without ATSC receivers? I thought the FCC mandated all sets must have the tuner as of 2007. QED no need for a converter box.

- Why would someone with an HDTV even want to watch a HD-to-Standard Def conversion??? That'd be kinda silly. QED extremely unlikely to happen; the politicos are worrying about a problem that does not exist.

- And finally:

Your explanation *might* make sense for component-out since typically only HD sets have component inputs. However, why is S-video not allowed on these converter boxes? Even NTSC-TVs have S-video inputs (for like the last twenty years). I still don't understand why standard-def S-video would be "verboten" by the SS.
electrictroy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2007, 10:08 AM   #29  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

The government wants these boxes to be bought by people who are only receiving OTA broadcasts with only an analog TV tuner. Those are the TV's that will go dark after the DTV changeover.

By arbitrarily limiting the desirability of these boxes, they hope to confine the coupon use to the above group.

Maybe they ought to downscale the resolution and use poor decoder algortihms to further reduce the likelihood people will use the coupons
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2007, 04:56 PM   #30  
Administrator
 
rbinck's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 16,971
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrictroy View Post
Ahhh that sorta/kinda makes sense, except I still have some questions:

- Do they even make HDTVs without ATSC receivers? I thought the FCC mandated all sets must have the tuner as of 2007. QED no need for a converter box.

They still make monitors that will support HDTV resolutions with no tuners at all. I have one. The deal is they can't call them a HDTV without a tuner and if they have a tuner it must have an ATSC tuner. It may also have a NTSC tuner.
Quote:
- Why would someone with an HDTV even want to watch a HD-to-Standard Def conversion??? That'd be kinda silly. QED extremely unlikely to happen; the politicos are worrying about a problem that does not exist.

That does not seem to tie into the coupon issue at all.
Quote:
- And finally:

Your explanation *might* make sense for component-out since typically only HD sets have component inputs. However, why is S-video not allowed on these converter boxes? Even NTSC-TVs have S-video inputs (for like the last twenty years). I still don't understand why standard-def S-video would be "verboten" by the SS.
Again, the reason for the restrictions are to reduce the coupon redemption to as few people as possible.
rbinck is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


to LG Wins DTV Converter Box Certification
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Comcast box hd converter? madkiwi Cable Providers 3 07-05-2009 05:34 PM
Motorola HDT101 vs. Samsung SIR-T451 jeffkrug Local HDTV Info and Reception 8 02-02-2008 02:18 PM
Verizon and DTV ivanl DirecTV Forum 1 07-06-2007 06:44 PM
Halliburton WINS No Bid Contract to Supply Converter Boxes HondoHDTV Local HDTV Info and Reception 2 03-15-2007 04:01 AM
High Def Converter Box wrecker29 Cable Providers 1 08-13-2004 08:57 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:49 PM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004 - 2018, MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands