High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
Rules HDTV Forum Gallery LINK TO US! RSS - High Def Forum AddThis Feed Button AddThis Social Bookmark Button Groups

High Definition News & Informative Articles Get the Latest High Definition News & Informative Articles Here! Please post newsworthy information here only! This forum is NOT for your first post. Thank you!

1080i vs. 1080p clearly explained - finally!

Reply
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-18-2006, 10:42 PM   #61  
HT Frontiersman
 
borromini's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Northern California
Posts: 10,309
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobY
...Got any good ideas for how to tell if a display is performing reverse pull-down on 1080i?
I'm interested in finding out too since I soon will have a Toshiba XA1 hooked up to a Sony 40XBR2.
borromini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2006, 02:18 PM   #62  
Very Grizzled Vet of 1 yr
 
paulc's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,764
Default

I dunno, I wanted to make a judgement on a particular video process and source and result were glaringly obvious when single stepped, but next to impossible to tell when run at full speed (i.e. impossible for my eyes, maybe not for a young 'un).
paulc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2006, 05:07 PM   #63  
Can't wait for the switch
 
SpHeRe31459's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California, USA
Posts: 213
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by borromini
I'm interested in finding out too since I soon will have a Toshiba XA1 hooked up to a Sony 40XBR2.
I believe the way to tell is with an HD signal generator and to see how the test pattern looks. If it is doing the proper job you'll see the test pattern perfectly replicated. If the fine lines are blurred or perhaps gone entierly it is bobing the fields rather then detecting the source as film and doing proper IVTC on it.

Rick has something about this up on his blog from a while back, I remember reading the article he mentions.
http://www.highdefinitionblog.com/?p=226
article link
http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/0506halfrez/

Though this only tests that a TV can weave 1080i content, I'm not sure of the framerate of this test they did, if it is 30fps then all it does it prove it can weave the 30 fps of the 60 fields properly.

Most new (2006) models do 1080i pull down properly, though certainly not all.

Last edited by SpHeRe31459; 09-21-2006 at 05:10 PM..
SpHeRe31459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2006, 07:37 AM   #64  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

Even the best de-interlacers will bob *video* content, as there is no way to preserve both the full spatial resolution and the full temporal resolution when de-interlacing an image that was captured in interlaced form (never having existed as a progressive image).

In video mode, the best de-interlacers examine multiple fields and determine which content is stationary or changing slowly enough that weaving won't cause artifacts (and weaves those) and which content is changing too quickly to weave (and bobs those).

That's why it's critical that a display be able to detect film content at 1080i and switch to film mode (which weaves everything). Even with the best de-interlacer, if the display stays in video mode when watching films, portions of the content will still be bobbed and the full resolution that you would have been able to see with a 1080p input will not be displayed.
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2006, 09:01 AM   #65  
Got HDTV?
 

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7
Exclamation 1080i vs 1080p

Your previous post relating back to the mag was certainly interesting. Though im afraid I must disagree with the claimed research they've done. I myself sell televisions for a living and on a daily basis I can clearly see the difference between the 1080i and 1080p sets. It's all about the pixels! There may not be many sources out there for 1080p as of this very second (Blu-ray, HD-DVD, PS3, and soon x-box 360) but once the congress passed the bill that will force all signals to be bumped into the digital world you will then shortly see a shift into the 1080p world. This nonsense that 720p and 1080i are the same is somewhat true, but 1080p in itself is far superior to these. They may have done some research about human eye mumbo jumbo but in the long run nothing was accomplished. He did not ever stop to actually look at the visual difference between the two on the same exact source. I clearly see the difference every single day of my life. Im not coming flat out saying that you need a 1080p set in any regards, im simply saying if you want the best and in 5-6 years you still want the best a 1080p set now is a much better investment. The Samsung hls5087w which is a 1080p set is far better than mitsubishi and sony sxrd only because sonys convergance issues and mitsubishis dont seem to have the same quality at the 1080p level. Please reconsider what these other posts have said and seriously look into the idea of 1080p, do your own research if you dont believe me, there's a huge difference and but dont take my word, actually go to circuit city, best buy, or even sears and look at the difference yourself, jsut make sure there using the same source for each set. Also, in my opinion DLP is a better investment for 1080p because it keeps the price low and it is the better option considering you pay roughly the same for 1080i (there may be a 2-4 hundred difference)
Rustedwho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2006, 09:17 AM   #66  
What's all this, then?...
 
BobY's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,197
Default

I don't tihnk that *anyone* is saying that a 1080p *display* doesn't look better than a 1080i *display*.

The question is whether a Hi-Def movie sent as a 1080p *signal* will look any better than as a 1080i *signal* when viewed on a 1080p display.

It *shouldn't*, but there is the possiblitiy of displays with badly designed de-interlacers or not being able reliably detect film content.
BobY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2006, 09:42 AM   #67  
Got HDTV?
 

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7
Default

I must be confusing forums because I had read that someone was saying that 720p and 1080p were the same thing due to the capabilities of the human eye. Thats a bunch of horse shit in all honesty. No televison can even compare to the capabilities of human eye .... yet. To answer this question a little further, with a movie in 1080p and 1080i there will be a difference but as you said it will grealy depend on the set and the de-interlacers but the difference should only be slight in my opinion.
Rustedwho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2006, 10:20 AM   #68  
Got HDTV?
 

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7
Exclamation 1080i vs 1080p

The last thing i responded with was if your watching on a 1080i set. I dont understand what your comparing though. If you put a blu-ray on a 1080p set its going to look a hell of a lot better than any 1080i movie you pull in say off hbo or what not. But if it's a 1080i set there going to be almost identical, except the blu-ray may be slightly sharper. Can you explain yourself a little more I think im a little fuzzy. The very first post I had on here was directed in response the the link on the first page of this. I believe its the first post. That site and information isn't at all right. So many people have probably made bad decisions based what they have said. Will anyone else here agree with me or do we all lack common sense?
Rustedwho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2006, 12:12 PM   #69  
HT Frontiersman
 
borromini's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Northern California
Posts: 10,309
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustedwho
...do we all lack common sense?
Don't include me...please.
borromini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2006, 12:58 PM   #70  
Crabtree's Bludgeon
 
maicaw's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,001
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustedwho
I must be confusing forums because I had read that someone was saying that 720p and 1080p were the same thing due to the capabilities of the human eye. Thats a bunch of horse shit in all honesty. No television can even compare to the capabilities of human eye .... yet. ....
Yep - I posted that link - with some doubts -
I don't think that is the whole story - certainly my visual experience riding down a country road on my Harley at 60mph is an order of magnitude more detailed than any HDTV display - - But the human eye itself is pretty crude - the retina has far less than 1920x1080 color sensors - and the lens is an optical disaster -it's the brain (perceptual processing) that let's us see all the beauty and dynamics of an autumn afternoon - missing in even a 35mm movie - and its stereoscopic (3D) besides
Same is true for hearing and probably any other sense - it's not the sensor - its the human brain and nurture that give us the details from the relatively crude sensors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception
For a FP or large HD display in a dark room there are few other cues - so the eye is fixated on the pixel structure - and I think he may mean that is the totality of the environment that our brain has to work with for HDTV - and maybe it doesn't really expect to process the scene the same way as "reality"
maicaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2006, 02:03 PM   #71  
Got HDTV?
 

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7
Default His thoughts?

As I had taken it tho, he was trying to say that a hdtv would not be as beneficial unless your farther away. Yet again, im forced to disagree with him. He has a few points that I MAY agree with but in general I dont think his "research" was very successfull. I dont think he did a good comparison
Rustedwho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2006, 12:25 PM   #72  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bay Area, CA
Age: 48
Posts: 679
Default

"The last thing i responded with was if your watching on a 1080i set. I dont understand what your comparing though. If you put a blu-ray on a 1080p set its going to look a hell of a lot better than any 1080i movie you pull in say off hbo or what not. But if it's a 1080i set there going to be almost identical, except the blu-ray may be slightly sharper. Can you explain yourself a little more I think im a little fuzzy. The very first post I had on here was directed in response the the link on the first page of this. I believe its the first post. That site and information isn't at all right. So many people have probably made bad decisions based what they have said. Will anyone else here agree with me or do we all lack common sense?"

A broadcast movie on HBO should be significantly poorer quality than a movie you are viewing on a HD-DVD or BR player. The same is true watching a broadcast movie on SD compared to watching the same movie on DVD. The difference is that the broadcast version has to conserve bandwidth, and they use more extreme compression techniques than what you see on the recorded version where bandwidth is not an issue. So if you compare 1080i broadcast to 1080p disc, you will see a major difference. But if you were to compare 1080i broadcast to 1080i disc, you would also see a major difference. As of today, there is no true 1080p player on the market (the samsung goes from 1080p to 1080i back to 1080p), so the only way you could do the comparison is via a computer hooked up to the display. In theory, 1080i60 output should look exactly the same as 1080p60 assuming the 1080i has a good interlacer WHEN DISPLAYED ON A 1080P TV. If you display either on a 1080i TV, the 1080i display will not look as good as the 1080p TV.

When it comes to viewing distance and whether 1080 or 720 is better, that depends on the size of your screen and the distance you are sitting from the TV. If you are watching a "small" screen and are sitting a good distance away from it, the 720 and 1080 will look exactly the same to your eye. On the other hand, if you have a large screen and like to sit close to your TV, you will be able to appreciate the additional detail available in a 1080 display.
fryet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2006, 05:33 PM   #73  
Administrator
 
rbinck's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 16,971
Default

There could be some confusion between the type set in referring to 1080i vs. 1080p and the signal formats of 1080i vs 1080p in the last few posts.

These days almost all 1080i HDTVs are CRT based and 1080p HDTVs are fixed pixel. As far as I know there are no CRT based HDTVs that will accept a 1080p input signal, but there are fixed pixel HDTVs that will accept only 720p and 1080i and others that will also accept a 1080p input signal.

To add even more issues, some HDTVs that accept 1080p signals at 60Hz and others at 24hz also.

It really is not as simple as saying 1080i or 1080p to try to describe a HDTV because one poster could be thinking about the way the TV works and another could be thinking about how the signal is delivered to the TV.

Last edited by rbinck; 09-25-2006 at 05:36 PM..
rbinck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2006, 08:43 AM   #74  
Very Grizzled Vet of 1 yr
 
paulc's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,764
Default

I would suggest that the first specification one should think about is the native pixel resolution. In the fixed pixel area, we seem to see the action around 1366 x 786 and 1920 x 1080. The 1920 sets seem to be uniformly marketed as "1080p." How they handle the various possible signals would be next (IMO) and some qualification about the scaler/de-interlacer third. Sure there are other things that might affect one person or another for or against, but I think these three "things" are the cornerstones.
paulc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2006, 10:53 PM   #75  
What is HD?
 

Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 4
Default 1080P Upscaling vs 1080P DVD Players

What's the difference between an upscaling 1080p player and a Blu-Ray player, assuming you have a 1080p display? If I'm interpreting the Geoffrey Morrison explanation, they take different roads from A to Z but in the end, they're the same. Correct?
a_ok2me is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:36 AM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004 - 2018, MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands