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3D vs 2D; The chicken or the egg?

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Old 02-23-2011, 04:29 AM   #76  
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Originally Posted by tvine2000 View Post
From time to time we get people here, that claim they can see into the future. Using the term ''My Crystal ball''. Now lets be honest here, if you could see into the future, i don't think you would waste your time ,here! I think you would use your time to maybe control the planet or something huge, not wasting your time trying to make a point about 3d. Honestly no one really knows 3d's future. All you can really say is how 3D is doing right now, thats it. ''I think, or my crystal ball says'' really noting. What i see is the industry as a whole supports 3D. The CE'S are making the stuff, and the cable networks are stating to broadcast 3d programs, just as they did with HD! What happens next week or next year ,i have no idea. Stew has the right idea, when he wants to watch 3D he will put on the glasses, when watching 2D the glasses come off. Your posts i read, it seems to me ,you just don't like them glasses, so the 3D is doomed! thats the way it comes off.The beatles had a song called WITh IN YOU'' The line in the song was ''LIFE GOES ON WITHIN YOU ,OR WITH OUT YOU''. LIke it or not , 3d will go on without you, We heard the same banting during the format war, a few years ago and when Blu-ray won they said, it wouldn't last a year, and it cost to much etc, etc .etc! What happened, those guys are very silent now or they bought a blu-ray player. So my friend jump on the 3d bandwagon, or don't, but so far you have proven ...nothing.
Sooo sorry if I've overstated my prognosticating powers- I didn't realize OPINIONS weren't allowed on this forum. 3D will go on? In it's current format? You're making the same damn assumption. Read on- those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it. Your opinion is worth the same as mine- nothing. The market will decide, and I've stated on several occasions just because I think current 3D technology looks like a cheap cartoon, and you may think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread- then we're even.

And you couldn't have been reading my posts too carefully. So I'll put it more clearly. I've been an early adopter of about every new AV technology that's come down the pike- once I learned the benefit of waiting for the format wars to subside. I've seen some stuff go by the wayside like eight track tapes, cassette decks, and quadrophonic sound. I doubt 3D will go the same way because as they say "money talks" and a ton of money is being thrown into 3D. Sorry if I finally happened to run into a technological brick wall when it comes to 3D. Go dig up some of my posts on the Blu-Ray HDDVD battles.

And you're dead wrong if you think I want 3D to go away. However, I do want to see serious improvements in the technology before I'm going to plunk down any money on a set for my home- I'd like a little more than seeing three simultaneous layers of apparent 2D. If you (or anyone else) sees more than that- then God bless ya! FWIW, I'd deal with the freaking glasses if I thought the visual experience was a step in the right direction. We're on a quest for virtual reality, and sorry if there's a few of us out here who are of the (worthless) opinion current 3D ain't necessarily a step in the right direction.

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Old 02-23-2011, 11:07 AM   #77  
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Sooo sorry if I've overstated my prognosticating powers- I didn't realize OPINIONS weren't allowed on this forum. 3D will go on? In it's current format? You're making the same damn assumption. Read on- those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it. Your opinion is worth the same as mine- nothing. The market will decide, and I've stated on several occasions just because I think current 3D technology looks like a cheap cartoon, and you may think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread- then we're even.

And you couldn't have been reading my posts too carefully. So I'll put it more clearly. I've been an early adopter of about every new AV technology that's come down the pike- once I learned the benefit of waiting for the format wars to subside. I've seen some stuff go by the wayside like eight track tapes, cassette decks, and quadrophonic sound. I doubt 3D will go the same way because as they say "money talks" and a ton of money is being thrown into 3D. Sorry if I finally happened to run into a technological brick wall when it comes to 3D. Go dig up some of my posts on the Blu-Ray HDDVD battles.

And you're dead wrong if you think I want 3D to go away. However, I do want to see serious improvements in the technology before I'm going to plunk down any money on a set for my home- I'd like a little more than seeing three simultaneous layers of apparent 2D. If you (or anyone else) sees more than that- then God bless ya! FWIW, I'd deal with the freaking glasses if I thought the visual experience was a step in the right direction. We're on a quest for virtual reality, and sorry if there's a few of us out here who are of the (worthless) opinion current 3D ain't necessarily a step in the right direction.
I understand your opinion, we just disagree, I think the 3D experience at home is fantastic even better then the theater.

I'm sorry that for some reason you're unable to see it which to be honest surprises me a little because everyone that sees mine wants one very badly and a couple of them didn't really care that much about HDTV before (and they own one), but this 3D makes them excited.

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Old 02-23-2011, 01:52 PM   #78  
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I understand your opinion, we just disagree, I think the 3D experience at home is fantastic even better then the theater.

I'm sorry that for some reason you're unable to see it which to be honest surprises me a little because everyone that sees mine wants one very badly and a couple of them didn't really care that much about HDTV, but this 3D makes them excited.
And that's what got me a little riled- if there weren't a lot of people out there who didn't think 3D was great, it would have already gone on a downward slope. - MHO

Yes, I do see "most" not "everyone" who's in the market for a new set taking a serious look a a 3D capable panel, assuming they can afford it. But again- MHO- there's likely a huge number of folks who just upgraded to HD, so they're highly unlikely to trash that 1-3 year old set and go out and buy another, just to get 3D. Us cutting edge freaks are way in the minority, no? So yup, I do see slow adoption of the technology. As others have stated in this thread- there's a percentage of the population who have issues with stereoscopic vision that 3D leaves underwhelmed- maybe I'm one of them- believe me, I've tried to like what I see with the glasses on.

Basically what I was saying is my "vision" of 5 years down the road doesn't include 90% of the population watching TV with shutter glasses on- and if I'm wrong, so what? No need to get ornery about it.

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Old 02-23-2011, 03:56 PM   #79  
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What cracks me up is that there are those that are very opposed to 3D, to the point of looking to squash the very mention of the word.
It isn't like 3D is a threat to HD but obviuosly it is to some...
I will confess that I am in the category of those that would like to see 3D destroyed. I don't care at this point about Blu-ray 3D, I just won't buy it, but in the movie theater, I hate watching 3D movies, but about half the time I end up watching it in 3D anyway, either because those I am with want to watch 3D, or the movie time for the 3D version is more convenient than the 2D version. When 3D becomes popular, I can see myself being forced to watch 3D in people's homes, because they like 3D as well. So if the world revolved around me, I would happily celebrate the demise of 3D.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:28 PM   #80  
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I will confess that I am in the category of those that would like to see 3D destroyed. I don't care at this point about Blu-ray 3D, I just won't buy it, but in the movie theater, I hate watching 3D movies, but about half the time I end up watching it in 3D anyway, either because those I am with want to watch 3D, or the movie time for the 3D version is more convenient than the 2D version. When 3D becomes popular, I can see myself being forced to watch 3D in people's homes, because they like 3D as well. So if the world revolved around me, I would happily celebrate the demise of 3D.
I'm glad to see others speaking out against 3D. There are different reasons why people don't want to be handed an option of 3D or nothing. ie can't view 3D, costs more, lesser quality picture, gimmicky, need for peripherals... to name a few.

I also undertand that there are advantages and an appeal to this newest 3D technology which is continuing to develop into a better quality experience and I'm not arguing that you shouldn't enjoy it, you just need to understand that there are legitimate reasons why people don't enjoy it and please don't look at it like a dictorial rule and say if you don't like it don't watch it.

This format is being forced upon me and I don't like that my choice is being taken away. I hope more people can somehow learn to understand this.
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:50 AM   #81  
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I just don't see how 3D is being forced on anyone that doesn't want to see it, buy it, etc..

I don't think 3D is going away or is just a fad this time. A whole lot of money is being put behind it. Will it be a niche? I think so or, as previously stated over and over, it will be an option included with new HDTVs... right or wrong.. I don't know

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Old 02-24-2011, 11:34 AM   #82  
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I just don't see how 3D is being forced on anyone that doesn't want to see it, buy it, etc..

I don't think 3D is going away or is just a fad this time. A whole lot of money is being put behind it. Will it be a niche? I think so or, as previously stated over and over, it will be an option included with new HDTVs... right or wrong.. I don't know
It all depends on how it is adopted by people. The home theatre 3DTV isn't as big of an issue as 3D movie theatres because the home theatre owner has more control and because of the fact that theatres are raking in an easy profit. The more 3D screens available the more profit for theatres which also means less option to view a 2D movie for me or anyone that wants the option. It wasn't a big problem at first but I'm finding it harder and harder to find 2D viewings of the movies I want to watch on the big screen. I can still view a 3D movie with monscopic vision but it's of much less quality and it doesn't make much sense that I should pay an extra $3 for it.

If 3DTV does become as big as some of the over zealous say then there is certainly potential for issues of cost (equipment and media) Sure, there's still an option to buy and watch 2D only but that's also the way it started in theatres.

The electronics manufacturers found a cash cow and in my opinion pushed this on the market too fast. There are still too many issues with what it is now. They are in too deep now to pull back but they are also still working on other ways to overcome the current issues. It seems to me that there could be a lot of waste products out there if they come up with a better format.

I can't see it being more than a niche myself but it is a threat for me. I don't have to watch 3D but I may have to pay for it.
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Old 02-24-2011, 12:03 PM   #83  
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I think it will become the dominant technology, but it will take time.

I also think there will still be the option of watching the movie or television show in 2D if that is what the viewer prefers.

I also think the technology will advance and become easier to use and view.

I don't think anyone will be forced to watch 3D just like anyone could still watch black and white television or films instead of color, I personally think some of the classic older black and white shows and films are superior and I wouldn't want to view them in color.

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Old 02-24-2011, 09:00 PM   #84  
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So here we are, 13+ years after the introduction of HDTV. Other then a handful of HD only channels, almost all channels are in SD and HD. Yet, the only TVs you can buy are HDTVs.

3D IMO will never be the dominant tech. There are too many physical side issues to ever let that happen. AFAIK, close to 25% of all people have issues watching 3D content. The only ones who can't watch SD or HD content are those people who are blind (in both eyes). A very small %

To properly shoot in 3D is more expensive then shooting in SD or HD because more people are required as is more equipment. That isn't going to change.

The "holy grail" of 3DTV . . . Auto 3D . . . will have more problems and issues associated with it's implementation then the glasses based 3DTV of today. As long as they use a display using lenslets, THAT isn't going to change.

The theater industry continues to make the change from film projectors to digital projectors. That isn't going to change. And as long as they have a digital projector and Hollywood continues to make 3D films, they can easily convert (and de-convert) those projectors to 3D. I don't see that changing for the foreseeable future. Not when 3D movies earned at the BO, less than $200M in 2008, $1B in 2009 and $2.2B in 2010.

The CEMs are always on the lookout for new tech that will allow them to earn high margins. 3DTV is just the latest and it came at a very good time for them. HDTV sales were up but margins were down on HDTVs. Competition forced prices down. Good for consumers, bad for the CEMs.
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:59 AM   #85  
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So here we are, 13+ years after the introduction of HDTV. Other then a handful of HD only channels, almost all channels are in SD and HD. Yet, the only TVs you can buy are HDTVs.

3D IMO will never be the dominant tech. There are too many physical side issues to ever let that happen. AFAIK, close to 25% of all people have issues watching 3D content. The only ones who can't watch SD or HD content are those people who are blind (in both eyes). A very small %

To properly shoot in 3D is more expensive then shooting in SD or HD because more people are required as is more equipment. That isn't going to change.

The "holy grail" of 3DTV . . . Auto 3D . . . will have more problems and issues associated with it's implementation then the glasses based 3DTV of today. As long as they use a display using lenslets, THAT isn't going to change.

The theater industry continues to make the change from film projectors to digital projectors. That isn't going to change. And as long as they have a digital projector and Hollywood continues to make 3D films, they can easily convert (and de-convert) those projectors to 3D. I don't see that changing for the foreseeable future. Not when 3D movies earned at the BO, less than $200M in 2008, $1B in 2009 and $2.2B in 2010.

The CEMs are always on the lookout for new tech that will allow them to earn high margins. 3DTV is just the latest and it came at a very good time for them. HDTV sales were up but margins were down on HDTVs. Competition forced prices down. Good for consumers, bad for the CEMs.
Nice post Lee. The CEM's found a money maker and went with it. Can't blame them. Nothing against 3D and and kudo's to those that enjoy it. In me household, the lass wants to get it for the grandkids,,okay by me since we are already set up with a great sound system and every thing we need to enjoy HD. have said it before and will say it again - for those thinking of getting 3D make sure you have yer checklist filled out for the necessities - a good sound system, a good remote, then if you have some spare change,,,go for the 3D. No worries.
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Old 02-25-2011, 02:20 AM   #86  
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Kudo's to both of ya, Oblio and Lee.. well said! I can hardly wait to get home so I can enjoy me some 3D on my big screen.
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:42 AM   #87  
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So here we are, 13+ years after the introduction of HDTV. Other then a handful of HD only channels, almost all channels are in SD and HD. Yet, the only TVs you can buy are HDTVs.

3D IMO will never be the dominant tech. There are too many physical side issues to ever let that happen. AFAIK, close to 25% of all people have issues watching 3D content. The only ones who can't watch SD or HD content are those people who are blind (in both eyes). A very small %

To properly shoot in 3D is more expensive then shooting in SD or HD because more people are required as is more equipment. That isn't going to change.

The "holy grail" of 3DTV . . . Auto 3D . . . will have more problems and issues associated with it's implementation then the glasses based 3DTV of today. As long as they use a display using lenslets, THAT isn't going to change.

The theater industry continues to make the change from film projectors to digital projectors. That isn't going to change. And as long as they have a digital projector and Hollywood continues to make 3D films, they can easily convert (and de-convert) those projectors to 3D. I don't see that changing for the foreseeable future. Not when 3D movies earned at the BO, less than $200M in 2008, $1B in 2009 and $2.2B in 2010.

The CEMs are always on the lookout for new tech that will allow them to earn high margins. 3DTV is just the latest and it came at a very good time for them. HDTV sales were up but margins were down on HDTVs. Competition forced prices down. Good for consumers, bad for the CEMs.
When I say 3D will be the dominant technology, I'm not saying 2D will not be still around and used, just that 3D will be the top version of the technology available and be considered the very best it has to offer.

There will be improvements that will broaden it's appeal and make it easier for everyone to enjoy even those of us that cannot at this time.

3D is here to stay and isn't going to go away anytime soon IMHO.
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Old 02-25-2011, 12:41 PM   #88  
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When I say 3D will be the dominant technology, I'm not saying 2D will not be still around and used, just that 3D will be the top version of the technology available and be considered the very best it has to offer.

There will be improvements that will broaden it's appeal and make it easier for everyone to enjoy even those of us that cannot at this time.

3D is here to stay and isn't going to go away anytime soon IMHO.
I am referring to the content Unotis - being the dominant tech. LOL - I don't think HD is the dominant tech even now. Sure every HDTV sold over a certain size may be a 3DTV but it's a feature. Like IPTV. If the consumer doesn't get the glasses and get 3D content, then it's one of many features we find on HDTVs that just aren't used.

Here is the problem with 3D as it pertains to the medical/physical issues. Normally when we see with our eyes, each eye sees a 3D image. Both eyes see images at the same time. But when we watch 3D, we are viewing an artifically created sense of depth. They do this by showing 2 images, each only being 2D and each being shown alternating - one for the left eye, then one for the right eye. Or both at the same time but each eye sees a slightly different image in the case of polarized 3D.

Then it is up to the brain to combine the 2 images and tell us we are seeing 3D. Unfortunately, your eyes have to be correctly balanced to make this work. If you have a slight eye muscle imbalance (like "lazy eye") then it doesn't work and the side effects are headaches, nausea and vertigo.

And most people that suffer the above are not even aware they have that imbalance because the balance is only required for viewing 3D. Under normal viewing, it isn't used.

With the glasses or without the glasses, the process is still the same. Taking two 2D images and having the brain combine them.

And I do agree - 3D is here to stay. Both in the theaters and in the home.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:04 AM   #89  
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I am referring to the content Unotis - being the dominant tech. LOL - I don't think HD is the dominant tech even now. Sure every HDTV sold over a certain size may be a 3DTV but it's a feature. Like IPTV. If the consumer doesn't get the glasses and get 3D content, then it's one of many features we find on HDTVs that just aren't used.

Here is the problem with 3D as it pertains to the medical/physical issues. Normally when we see with our eyes, each eye sees a 3D image. Both eyes see images at the same time. But when we watch 3D, we are viewing an artifically created sense of depth. They do this by showing 2 images, each only being 2D and each being shown alternating - one for the left eye, then one for the right eye. Or both at the same time but each eye sees a slightly different image in the case of polarized 3D.

Then it is up to the brain to combine the 2 images and tell us we are seeing 3D. Unfortunately, your eyes have to be correctly balanced to make this work. If you have a slight eye muscle imbalance (like "lazy eye") then it doesn't work and the side effects are headaches, nausea and vertigo.

And most people that suffer the above are not even aware they have that imbalance because the balance is only required for viewing 3D. Under normal viewing, it isn't used.

With the glasses or without the glasses, the process is still the same. Taking two 2D images and having the brain combine them.

And I do agree - 3D is here to stay. Both in the theaters and in the home.
According to a study published by the Iowa Department of the Blind only about 4% of the population have the imbalance between focusing power and eye alignment although in another study they state that up to 9.2% of children in grade school have shown the same problem.

My opinion is although it is too bad that somewhere between 4 to 9% of the population will have trouble with 3D films and home television watching that is too small of a percentage to stop adoption by the over 90% of the population that will enjoy it considerably.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:19 AM   #90  
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According to a study published by the Iowa Department of the Blind only about 4% of the population have the imbalance between focusing power and eye alignment although in another study they state that up to 9.2% of children in grade school have shown the same problem.

My opinion is although it is too bad that somewhere between 4 to 9% of the population will have trouble with 3D films and home television watching that is too small of a percentage to stop adoption by the over 90% of the population that will enjoy it considerably.
There are other eye complications that make it uncomfortable or won't allow a person to see 3D. Also, if your numbers were correct, to say that 90% of the population will considerably enjoy it is a little enthusiastic.

Like Lee said, there are still people who haven't adopted HDTV. 3DTV right now is a niche of a niche. It doesn't make sense that 3D will be the dominant technology. It will be a feature and I don't want to have to pay for it.
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