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Sony claims PS3 losses = $3.3+ Billion

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Old 06-27-2008, 02:53 PM   #136  
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I'm going straight to the Toshiba v Sony arguments since that is clearly the argument. How many discontinued HD DVD players will have to be sold to cover that $1,000,000,000 flop? The PS3's $3.3 billion loss has the PS3, BD, Playstation Store, movie downloads, oh and PS3 games, all still in or coming to help recoup it's losses. Of course Toshiba came out way better.
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:04 PM   #137  
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Originally Posted by hatt View Post
I'm going straight to the Toshiba v Sony arguments since that is clearly the argument. How many discontinued HD DVD players will have to be sold to cover that $1,000,000,000 flop? The PS3's $3.3 billion loss has the PS3, BD, Playstation Store, movie downloads, oh and PS3 games, all still in or coming to help recoup it's losses. Of course Toshiba came out way better.
I believe you are off on the loss that Toshiba declared - it was around $635 million.

And seeing as how the new CBHD format for China goes through the DVD Forum for licensing - and Toshiba is the largest patent holder on HD DVD . . . they get royalties on CBHD.

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Old 06-27-2008, 03:07 PM   #138  
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I believe you are off on the loss that Toshiba declared - it was around $635 million.

And seeing as how the new CBHD format for China goes through the DVD Forum for licensing - and Toshiba is the largest patent holder on HD DVD . . . they get royalties on CBHD.

Getting royalties from China Let us know how that works out. Oh and isn't Blu fishing the market over in China? I don't think anything is settled over there.
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:19 PM   #139  
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Getting royalties from China Let us know how that works out.
They have already signed agreements with the DVD Forum. This has been posted before and recently discussed - when CH DVD was changed to CBHD - a recent thread.

As far as Toshiba getting royalties from China? Should work out VERY well for Toshiba.

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Oh and isn't Blu fishing the market over in China? I don't think anything is settled over there.
Sure it is - AVS will be the Codec. And I can tell you that "fishing expeditions" don't always work out. They are building BD players there, but the movies for China, by China's movie industry will be in the CBHD format.
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:20 PM   #140  
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Originally Posted by ssjLancer View Post
I didnt ask for a link saying the sales happened. I asked for a link stating they sold the factories to finance the PS3.
Well the 3rd link to cNet states:

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Originally Posted by from cNET link
"What would a sale mean for production of the PS3? In a word, nothing. According to Nikkei, part of the agreement will have Sony oversee the Cell production lines inside the factory, which Toshiba would own. However, the sale of the factories would both offset the losses being suffered by Sony's gaming division, and allow it to save on the cost of operating the plants."
Why do YOU think they sold those assets off then? Of course it was done to offset the HUGE losses on the PS3. When was the last time you sold an asset that was an integral part of of YOU making money? WOuld you sell your car that you use to get to work unless you REALLY needed the cash?

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PS3's attach ratios have been above normal the entire time. So no, they werent expecting much higher software sales in regards to the number of hardware.
Where do you get this info from? Again, more console sales/market share allows them to get/keep game developers releasing games on it to survive and hasn't Sony already lost a lot of exclusives to the 360? I am not a gamer but this has been posted many times.

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If you agree that Sony was expecting higher sales then you would also agree that they expected even higher losses from hardware.
Maybe, maybe not. They might have hoped they would have gotten mfg costs lower sooner than they actually have, and they might have hoped for more games to have been released and result in higher royalty checks to help offset that mfg cost. Were there not many delays in releasing games for the PS3 due to it being more difficult to develop than they originally thought? I seem to remember reading this too.

Besides, I am sure they were building as many consoles as they could anyway for the first year and thus would not have to carry the inventory costs of the unsold units if they sold more. The mfg cost funds would have become available to service their debt and improve their cash flow.

It all comes down to the PS3 having losses much LARGER than the gaming division losses, but Sony is not releasing what the specific losses are for the PS3 alone. Why do you think that is?
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:30 PM   #141  
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post
They have already signed agreements with the DVD Forum. This has been posted before and recently discussed - when CH DVD was changed to CBHD - a recent thread.

As far as Toshiba getting royalties from China? Should work out VERY well for Toshiba.



Sure it is - AVS will be the Codec. And I can tell you that "fishing expeditions" don't always work out. They are building BD players there, but the movies for China, by China's movie industry will be in the CBHD format.
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The physical format of CBHD includes Chinese-owned intellectual property and it s based on HD DVD.

Actually this is the reason the format received the support of the Chinese gonvernment, which required all candidate high-def formats for the Chinese territory to inlcude intellectual property owned by Chinese companies. CBHD succeeded to have a couple of the Chinese IPs such as China DRM and AVS Audio and Video.
Was it released what the royalties will be? I'd guess they would be much smaller than royalties from current DVD agreements. And you still have China's track record on paying royalties to the interested parties.
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:36 PM   #142  
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Originally Posted by hatt View Post
I'm going straight to the Toshiba v Sony arguments since that is clearly the argument. How many discontinued HD DVD players will have to be sold to cover that $1,000,000,000 flop? The PS3's $3.3 billion loss has the PS3, BD, Playstation Store, movie downloads, oh and PS3 games, all still in or coming to help recoup it's losses. Of course Toshiba came out way better.
I know the OP has been fighting BD all along and that likely is his motive for even posting this. On this we agree.

I am sure Toshiba lost a ton of money on HD DVD but they did not bet the whole company, of which HD DVD only makes a very small portion of. Sony has basically bet the company on the PS3 and BD. It may turn out well for them in the end but we will have to wait and see if they ever turn a profit on the PS3 in the end.

My point was that Lancer was trying to pretend that the PS3 was profitable now and that is NOT what has happened YET!

This is my reason for even commenting in this thread really. It was to point out that even Sony's own numbers show that for the last completed year (and "official" numbers released) that Sony was STILL losing money on the gaming division and the losses for the PS3 alone are actually much higher because the very big profits from the PS2 and PSP have only lowered the whole gaming division losses to the approximately 3.3 BILLION gaming losses.

I am quite sure that there were huge losses for the PS3 portion of the gaming division for a few years BEFORE these periods included in this 3.3 BILLION total for the whole R&D costs, etc too. It wouldn't surprise me if the PS3 losses ALONE tally to date is over $5 billion, but we likely will never get that number out of Sony.
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:40 PM   #143  
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Was it released what the royalties will be? I'd guess they would be much smaller than royalties from current DVD agreements. And you still have China's track record on paying royalties to the interested parties.
Well - that's your guess - but it may not be the truth.

The royalties will be on the players and the discs.

No royalties on DRM and Video Codec though.

What has heppened in the past is now changed as far as CBHD. This was agreed to in writing.
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:42 PM   #144  
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Well the 3rd link to cNet states:

Why do YOU think they sold those assets off then? Of course it was done to offset the HUGE losses on the PS3. When was the last time you sold an asset that was an integral part of of YOU making money? WOuld you sell your car that you use to get to work unless you REALLY needed the cash?
Probably the same reason oerlikon sold their stuff to Singulus. They dont want to be in the optical business anymore, and maybe Sony doesnt want to be in the cell making business.
The PS3 could have never existed, for all we know Sony still would of sold off their cell factories.

Quote:
Where do you get this info from? Again, more console sales/market share allows them to get/keep game developers releasing games on it to survive and hasn't Sony already lost a lot of exclusives to the 360? I am not a gamer but this has been posted many times.
Ill look for the link if you reeeally want it. PS3's attach ratios are the same as 360's in its first year, and about 2 units higher than the Wii.

Quote:
It all comes down to the PS3 having losses much LARGER than the gaming division losses, but Sony is not releasing what the specific losses are for the PS3 alone. Why do you think that is?
Nintendo does the exact same thing. You think they might be hiding something?
http://www.nintendo.com/corp/annual_report.jsp

Profits/losses are clumped in as the 'electronic entertainment' division(nintendo also makes toys and playing cards) and the only specifics from the DS, GBA, GC, and Wii are unit and software sales(just like Sony's report)
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:50 PM   #145  
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Probably the same reason oerlikon sold their stuff to Singulus. They dont want to be in the optical business anymore, and maybe Sony doesnt want to be in the cell making business.
The PS3 could have never existed, for all we know Sony still would of sold off their cell factories.
Strawman argument.

http://www.edn.com/article/CA6533765.html

Quote:
While Toshiba executives tell Asian business newspapers the move will give it the opportunity to expand its CMOS manufacturing operations, it also gives Sony some breathing room to concentrate on shoring up its lagging marketing strategy for the PS3 - the part of the job that neither Toshiba nor anyone else right now besides Sony seems to want.
http://www.betanews.com/article/Sony...iba/1192720514

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Old 06-27-2008, 03:50 PM   #146  
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Well - that's your guess - but it may not be the truth.

The royalties will be on the players and the discs.

No royalties on DRM and Video Codec though.

What has heppened in the past is now changed as far as CBHD. This was agreed to in writing.
This: "Was it released what the royalties will be?" was not a guess. My guess followed my question. Since you clearly do not know the answer to my question, you are now in the guessing game also.

Until the checks start coming in, all bets are off.
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:57 PM   #147  
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This: "Was it released what the royalties will be?" was not a guess. My guess followed my question. Since you clearly do not know the answer to my question, you are now in the guessing game also.

Until the checks start coming in, all bets are off.
First off - the licensing agreements are covered under NDA's so that info will not be made public. I recently posted a thread on DVD license fee's - only a month or so old so you have something to look at.

As far as your "impending doom" statement that Chinese companies aren't going to pay the DVD Forum Licensing Corp? . . .

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Old 06-27-2008, 04:03 PM   #148  
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Simple, hardware loss alone does not indicate the success. [/quote]
It certainly can if all that the company manufactures is the proprietary console, (i.e. Commodore Amiga CD32 & the Panasonic 3DO System)!

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
As I mentioned before, the bulk of profit comes from software and accessories (royalties and licenses).

Generally, I agree with you, unless the above mentioned condition exists.

Now the gaming industry, like many other consumer dependant industries, does have market indicators and so call "Analysis," who come into play where the industry breaches the Billion dollar market potential. Those Analysis, use and sometime create various indices to determine the market trends, health and futures. Most of the more vocal Gaming market analysis, WHO DO TEND TO KNOW THE GAMING INDUSTRY, better than most of us here, seem to be saying the same general things.

Now you are obviously free to bury your head in the sand an go "LALALALALALA" when they write about this stuff, but some here are and want to listen to what is being said.

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
Furthermore, consoles have life even when their predecessor arrives. ).


Generally. This is largely dependant on the level of total market penetration, the support complex, the heart and mind entrenchment of the previous product, the breath of software that is available, the backward compatibility of the next generation of product and the evolution versus revolution aspects of the the newer product. human nature being the funny thing that it is, we tend to gravitate and make fashionable, that which is revolutionary (easier to market is my guess) over that, which is merely evolutionary. (Case in point the Wii's interactivity is revolutionary as compared to just better graphics and sound with faster CPUs)

IMO The PS3, in this case, is an evolutionary change to the PS2.


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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
Once "PS4" hit the shelves (and yes, there will be a PS4)...

Now if and I do mean IF, there ever comes a time, that Sony creates a PS4, it would need to be a Revolutionary product, for it to sweep the gaming market space.

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
"Hopeful and presumptuous," no. It's the history of gaming. If there is anyone here that believes there will not be a PS4, you really should move on.


Do you work with or for Sony in any capacity? If not, then you, just like the rest of us, will just have to wait and see what Sony does next. If so, then is it a 2011, 12 or 13 product market, target?


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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
I'm not trying to be insulting, but you (in general) obviously have very little knowledge of the gaming industry and the history of the business.

No, I've just been a console gamer since the first Atari consoles became available. Never got to play on a VES. So, I have absolutely No idea how this market has shaped up, what so ever, or ANY of the drivers that have led to the few product successes and many, many failures!

So, no offence intended either, but if you can truly enlighten me and others on just how the gaming industry actually measures it's successes versus any other consumer market dependant industry. I, for one, would greatly appreciate the NEW economics lesson! Then I could finally prove my college professors wrong about the overall financial market indices!

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
I do not know what anyone is basing the possibility of there not being a PS4 on, but even if the PS3 "failed," there have been several successors to "unsuccessful" hardware.

De Ja Vu! Please see my earlier comments on this.

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
And the notion that Sony is in some sort of deep financial trouble is laughable. People read a few articles and suddenly become corporate financial experts.
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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
Sony isn't going anywhere and even if the PS3 didn't make them another dollar, they would still have the resources to develop another platform.
Do you own any stocks, bonds or mutual funds? If so, do you read any of the market position materials that come along with these securities? Did you read any of the analysis reports on these securities before you bought them, so that you could make at least and informed buying decision?

For the sake of clarifying where I am going with this, I am going to ASSUME that you understand that analyst typically use market indicators (i.e. DOW & NASDAQ) and ANY useful tidbits of information to predict the future market flows. Sony's own Chairman has indicated in the press, that if Sony was not victorious on the format battle that Sony as a company, would be in a precarious financial position. "Lucky," for HIM/THEM & YOU, that things worked out they way that they did.

Now, Having the resources to make yet another game console and the smarts to realise that it would be a very bad business decision to do so, at this time OR the near future, are two very different things! Sony may have plenty monies earmarked for R&D however, they need to spend much of that on marketing the current products and building the foundation (infrastructure) for their future. Remember, Sony does make other products besides the PS, and all of those other products need care and feeding too.

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
The original Xbox division did not make a profit until this year. It took roughly six years before they saw a profit and that did not stop them from developing and releasing 360. The 360 was released, before MS had a "significant market" or "recouped their losses." The gaming business is not about making a profit on x product now. It's a much bigger and gradual process.


A) I never compared Sony and their product profitability against their competition. That is a pretty pointless argument, IMO, as their products and business models are not aligned enough, to make a useful apples to apples comparison.

B) The gaming market is about making a profit, PERIOD! Soon, later, doesn't really matter to us share holders as long as we continue to make money on our investments!

Sure I agree, that there have been VERY few CE products that have been profit meccas, overnight!

Yes, the gaming industry as a whole is looking at Billions in attainable revenues, each year!

No, this will not happen the next day a product is introduced. But I can all but guarantee that no gaming console was ever created, mass produced, mass marketed and mas distributed, without the intent of making a profit! Short term or long term.

Now, if your business profit model is based upon a low margin high volume product, then you are typically looking for long term profitability. Conversely, if you have a high margin product, you are looking at more immediate profitability. The market itself (sprinkle in a little good old fashioned greed) will generally drive this business decision.

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
...there will continue to be hardware and software sales for the PS3. This is when profits really kick in.


O great Seer! Prey tell, what are the next Super Ball Lottery Numbers?? If you can predict the outcome of one of the most fickle CE market segments there is, then surely, you can help me out here too! (and NO I didn't call you Shirley )


If people take off the romantic, Sony has given us gamers the greatest gift to man in the PS consoles notion, and put on your business hat, and what I and others are saying and showing, will make much more sense to anyone that reads it.

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
There will be a market for it. Unless a console fails miserably out of the gate, it still has life for years to come.


Granted, IF the oh-so fickle gamers out there, do not shift to the next greatest thing on the planet, and Sony can convince more Game makers to feed the good game hungry PS3 beast.

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
Sony was still producing the original PlayStation up until two years ago. That is over a decade from its original release.

"Isn't greed wonderful?" Yea sure! But be aware, it can kill you! This may not have been a great marketing decision on the part of Sony. It is never too good to have your legacy product and the intended succeeding product competing for the same market segment dollars! Most companies have learned this lesson, long ago!



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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
Yet, everyone is quick to point out "losses" and trouble they're having without any inside or detailed knowledge. As I mentioned earlier, people that aren't in the know, need to quit pretending they are.

Are you one of the privileged few, that is actually "In the know?"

If so please enlighten us poor soles as to the truth! If not then, I hope you stand by your words as you expect the rest to do! The point being, most of us here are merely spectators and consumers. Each of us has a perspective to share, on all of this. Right or wrong, good or bad, we just have to sort through the minutia to make our own decisions.

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
But my statements were in reference to the system's sales. Which as I stated, is outselling 360.


As you keep bringing up the competition, I notice that you do not bring up the market segment leader that much. Which of course a) doesn't have an ultra fast CPU, doesn't have killer graphics, doesn't have loss less sound capability, doesn't have an embedded BD drive and b) is a fundamentally a revolutionary product versus an evolutionary one, like it's competition the PS3 and Xbox!

Now this does not necessarily make one console better than the other, as that is purely subjective to the person playing the games, but if you want to just talk about sales numbers, why not talk about all of them?

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
Again, long term. If one doesn't know the process or understand it, please move along.

Now you are just being repetitive and potentially authoritative. Remember we are here to inform as well as learn.

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
"Fluke" doesn't help your cause. A fluke is defined by good luck. If you want to say Blu-ray is "lucky," fine. But it's far from a "fiasco." Fiasco is a failure, i.e. HD DVD.


Blu-Ray is only a product/technology. Sony is actually the "Lucky" one! Per an interpretation of the Sony Chairman's comments! (please note the "Lucky," reference above for further clarification)

BTW. Thanks for the interpretive definitions. And a "fiasco," typically applies to a situation or idea not to a material object or product/technology as HD DVD clearly is. (i.e. "The marketing of HD DVD was a fiasco," would be a more correct application of the term).


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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
Regardless, of how one tries to spin it, Blu-ray won the HD disc battle and is having success.

Good to know however, relevance to the general discussion <= 0

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
What level of success it will reach is unknown, but to call it a failure or to knock it at this stage, is what the kids would refer to as "hatin'."

Agreed, however please see my prior comment!

BTW. it is within the rights of the individuals and general rules of the forum to "Hate," on BD, HD DVD, or any other HD related technology if one so desires, so as long as it is not done in an offensive or otherwise objectionable manor! Just be prepared to back it up with some tangible facts! And a flame retardant suit wouldn't hurt either!

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
Bottomline... If someone is only looking at hardware loss and passing judgement, they have no idea how the industry works.

Ooooooookayyyyyyyy , there may be some truth to that, but you can not really lump every one here, into that category. I would say that this is more likely to be true for the generally curious and not the serious enthusiasts.

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Originally Posted by LordGamer View Post
Blu-ray, software, accessories, etc, will easily make up for the hardware loss and bring a nice profit over time.

Okay so now you have crossed into the pure Speculation Zone! Sony's Marketing division certainly has an opening for you! Good luck at that new position, and if it doesn't work out, I'm sure that there are PLENTY of Marketing slots open over at Toshiba, these days!
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Old 06-27-2008, 04:16 PM   #149  
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Probably the same reason oerlikon sold their stuff to Singulus. They dont want to be in the optical business anymore, and maybe Sony doesnt want to be in the cell making business.
The PS3 could have never existed, for all we know Sony still would of sold off their cell factories.

Ill look for the link if you reeeally want it. PS3's attach ratios are the same as 360's in its first year, and about 2 units higher than the Wii.

Nintendo does the exact same thing. You think they might be hiding something?
http://www.nintendo.com/corp/annual_report.jsp

Profits/losses are clumped in as the 'electronic entertainment' division(nintendo also makes toys and playing cards) and the only specifics from the DS, GBA, GC, and Wii are unit and software sales(just like Sony's report)
Nah. I don't actually need a link but i wouldn't count them as "above average" if they are the same as their competitors attach ratios in the same period myself.

I think everyone KNOWS that if Sony didn't NEED the cash they would not have sold one of the most important parts of making the PS3. Why are you denying this or eluding that it might not be the reason? Sony has to answer to shareholders and more importantly they have to answer to their creditors to not have their notes called in. I can bet that this was required by the creditors to meet the agreement of the notes pertaining to a certain amount of liquid cash and other stipulations.

I understand that they all do this. I am sure they ALL know how each product in the division is doing financially but shareholder/SEC requirements do not require that detailed of a breakdown. Rest assured the creditors want/need to know this though. I wasn't meaning to imply that Sony was bucking the MO of financial reporting but rather that they would be announcing more info with all the bad press about the PS3 losses IF there was better news to report by doing so.

We all know the wii has been sold at a profit all along and the 360 & PS3 have not. MS doesn't have a lot of other gaming products to hide the losses in like SOny does so that makes them somewhat unique in "hiding" the full extent of their losses on the PS3 alone.
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Old 06-27-2008, 04:17 PM   #150  
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Just curious. If there is a PS4, what revolutionary idea will it have? Usually more intense graphics goes hand in hand with higher resolutions. But since HDTV's are set at 1080p and unlikely to go higher resolution is capped. If it's to transistion to a non physical media, well there's plenty here who say they would never give up BD's for DLs so wouldn't the same hold true for games?

Not trying to take a side here, since it's come up about if a PS4 will happen I just thought I would see what people envision it would be. Now if they did go higher resolution and it pushed HDTV to also go higher wouldn't that be unreal. The gaming market making a major decision in the direction of the HDTV market, my guess is no though.
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to Sony claims PS3 losses = $3.3+ Billion
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