High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
Rules HDTV Forum Gallery LINK TO US! RSS - High Def Forum AddThis Feed Button AddThis Social Bookmark Button Groups

High Definition Media A place to discuss BD and UHD Content from physical and digital media

ROLL CALL: HD DVD supporters that bought Blu

Reply
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-09-2008, 03:09 PM   #76  
Super Moderator
 
bruceames's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Novato, CA
Posts: 17,128
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRox View Post
Glad to hear that mate. Let the HD times continue

Think how special your HD DVD collection is going to be in a few years time, have you considered gunning after every US HD DVD release when the format is discontinued? I did that with Dreamcast games here in the UK, were some of the best times I've had Most people were paying 40 for the really substandard early PS2 content, not me, I was paying 99p a game
I don't know. If all HD DVD titles become collectors items, then it may be worth it. But I don't plan on buying movies I don't like for the sake of having it....only if it's a collector's item, then yeah.

I've got about 70% of US releases as it is. The marginal movies I bought on sale and many were only $8, so if I don't like it then no big loss.
bruceames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 04:35 PM   #77  
Former Super Moderator - RIP
 
PFC5's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 38,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmarkus View Post
PFC5,

Wow ! That's what came to me as I read your post. Actually more like, "this is a REAL guy who cuts through all the BS and shares with honesty and integrity". I for one have nothing but respect and good things to say about you my friend. I hope others take the time to read your post as well, it is looong, ha ha !

I too have made my choices from a CUSTOMER point of view, but been called a fan-boy. It seems inevitable here. I went out and purchased a XA2 HD-DVD player last year after reading about the profile issues, plus I needed another DVD player. I was tired of using my (then) xbox as a player. Although it (XA2) was rather expensive, and it may in the near future be a pricey upscaler, I'm glad I bought it based on what I've read here, no regret's at all. Who knows what'll happen really anyway ?

I guess I am fortunate to come through a trieing time in my life where now I have a great family life, and a lot more disposable income than I ever imagined. So I can easily go and get a BD player, when they get it right...or IF ! I already have a 360, otherwise I would just buy a PS3 like yourself, except I play the 360 alot myself, my son has his own, ha ha ! However, and more importantly, my kid respects and loves me. I can not imagine the same not being true for you. It is worth the fight...I know.

Having said all that. It is true you where here when I joined, and I had many question's. I was just considering buying a HDTV, (in early '07) and you where a big help. I appreciate all you've offered, and I don't feel as you have steered anyone wrong, certainly not me. The discussion's you have presented have always been informative and well balanced, never filled with fud, as is common place here (fud)...unfortunately. I look forward to reading your post, and often find myself looking for replies from certain individual's, you being one of them. When I had questions about upgrading my speaker system, again there was lot's of help. Guy's like YOU make this forum work. Technology is moving so fast, no one is going to pick the next best thing 100% of the time. Hell, as we're finding out, the BEST doesn't even always prevail !

Aside from all the home theatre talk and hi-def media chatter, I can relate as a father, so I feel for you on that level too. Nothing hit's home to a man (or likely woman for that matter) more than a grievance or misunderstanding with their own child. I too have an adopted son, since he was 4, so I'm his Dad, and he has always considered me his dad. He doesn't know the "donater" and doesn't need to. My wife and I have all his history as well as his family's (for medical reason's ) and that's all that is required. Any man can father a child, it takes a MAN to raise one.

Anyway, I'm kind of rambling here now, but I just wanted to let you know I appreciated such a well thought out and carefully presented post. Sometimes these post matter not just on a tech. level, but a human level too. No matter what format a person chooses, or what part of the world they're in, we always have that in common. Good Luck going forward, although I'm sure you don't need it. As I've said, you seem like one of the "good guys", and despite popular belief in our society is, good guys DON'T finish last !

Here's to a Happy New Year, to all of you.

Looking forward to new discussion's in the hi-tech world

peace

macmarkus
Thanks for the kind words. I have made many friends here and I am fortunate to count you as one also. I will be adopting my son even though he is almost 17 now. His natural father died in a motorcycle accident last year, and my son wanted me to adopt him for a few years, but his father, despite not supporting him either financially or emotionally, refused. I told my son that it would just be a piece of paper and it would be impossible to love him more anyway, so it would only change his last name.

He has been MY BOY since he was 1 1/2 years old, and nothing could change that. Some people, even my wife's family always seemed amazed how "I always treat him like he is my own son". I always told him that he IS my son, and regardless of whether he is "blood" or not that doesn't matter. Anyone can be a father or make a child. Being a DAD is where all the funny and work is. You do not need "blood" for that.

I am glad I was able to help you here with displays, sound systems, and even HD players. That was my primary mission on these forums, as I felt the places that I learned from, deserved me to give back as what was given to me. My PM box is constantly filled at the 500 mark because of all the PMs sent to me asking for advice about mostly displays, sound systems, and surprisingly less about the HD players. I am constantly deleting messages to clean it up but like to keep them as long as possible, so I can keep track of who had what problem, and how we tried to resolve it.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words my friend. The feeling is mutual.
PFC5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 04:43 PM   #78  
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5 View Post
Thanks for the kind words. I have made many friends here and I am fortunate to count you as one also. I will be adopting my son even though he is almost 17 now. His natural father died in a motorcycle accident last year, and my son wanted me to adopt him for a few years, but his father, despite not supporting him either financially or emotionally, refused. I told my son that it would just be a piece of paper and it would be impossible to love him more anyway, so it would only change his last name.

He has been MY BOY since he was 1 1/2 years old, and nothing could change that. Some people, even my wife's family always seemed amazed how "I always treat him like he is my own son". I always told him that he IS my son, and regardless of whether he is "blood" or not that doesn't matter. Anyone can be a father or make a child. Being a DAD is where all the funny and work is. You do not need "blood" for that.

I am glad I was able to help you here with displays, sound systems, and even HD players. That was my primary mission on these forums, as I felt the places that I learned from, deserved me to give back as what was given to me. My PM box is constantly filled at the 500 mark because of all the PMs sent to me asking for advice about mostly displays, sound systems, and surprisingly less about the HD players. I am constantly deleting messages to clean it up but like to keep them as long as possible, so I can keep track of who had what problem, and how we tried to resolve it.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words my friend. The feeling is mutual.
It's great to see some posts about what is REALLY important in life. You should both be proud of the type of people you are (though I'm sure you don't think of it that way)
tomes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 04:51 PM   #79  
Former Super Moderator - RIP
 
PFC5's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 38,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
OK, I'm officially sick of the profile hating issues. Is that all you can say now?

Answer me this, when HD-DVD's are published in 1080p format only, what is a person who spent $250-300 on their wonderfully better HD-DVD supposed to do since it's only capable of 1080i? Or does that suddenly not matter at all? The HD-DVD fanboys are so quick to point out profile issues with BD, but never really mention that all the cheap HD-DVD players are 1080i and not true 1080p. In order to get 1080p, you have to pay $400 and up, just like BD. Toshiba is banking on consumer confusion to get people to buy lowerer level players that can't even display the full 1080p that everything is supposed to be going to. Now you have no problem with those people going out and re-buying their HD-DVD players so they can get 1080p?

I'm no advocate of either side, aside from just being fricking fed up with the battle and wishing SOMEONE would just win. I'm just getting sick of the "HD-DVD" camp on here bashing anyone vaguely interested in a serious thoughtful discussion without sledgehammer bias.

Please note in my sig that I own an HD-DVD and don't bother claiming I'm a fanboy of any kind.
Here is the think you are not understanding about these HD players from both formats. They ALL convert the 1080p on the disc to 1080i, but the BD players convert it back IN THE PLAY to 1080p for output. Unless it is sending it out as 1080p/24Fps, in which case it is not converted to 1080i in the player. Maybe some of the newer players now have chips in them to process the data from the disc as 1080p, but I have not heard of this change.

So it does not matter WHERE it does the deinterlacing really as long as it is done correctly. Didn't you ever wonder WHY the PQ looked the same despite all that has been said about the FULL1080P as a MARKETING campaign? The reason is that it is marketing, and that is all. That is why I advised people to get a A2/A3 if they had a good 1080p display, unless they wanted the higher end features the XA2 provided.

Both formats had their weaknesses, but the profile issues with BD were not getting enough exposure even by the media trying to advise people and so many people came here not even aware of it. THAT was my purpose to expose this weakness. There was public statement by the Denon Chief Technical Officer (a BD only CE) that said they had problems with the 1.0 BD players playing even just the movie with 1.1/2.0 encoded movies. This was not something fabricated by the HD DVD side, but it does turn out that they seem to have resolved this problem on the movie encoding side judging by the first titles coming on BD that seem to work with most players.

I always said that they SHOULD be able to resolve that issue and play the movie with a firmware update. The 1.0 players will NEVER be able to do those new features that are possible with 1.1/2.0 BD players but I am happy they resolved playing just the movie for the sake of the 1.0 BD player owners out there.

I like those features on HD DVD and I suspect that web interactivity will become a great feature once they get past the initial stage and figure out all the possibilities. The studios have said they think those interactive features would play a big part in getting people interested in upgrading to HD players & movies and I agree with them.
PFC5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 05:22 PM   #80  
More than meets the eyes!
 
mobiushky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: State of Insanity
Posts: 3,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5 View Post
Here is the think you are not understanding about these HD players from both formats. They ALL convert the 1080p on the disc to 1080i, but the BD players convert it back IN THE PLAY to 1080p for output. Unless it is sending it out as 1080p/24Fps, in which case it is not converted to 1080i in the player. Maybe some of the newer players now have chips in them to process the data from the disc as 1080p, but I have not heard of this change.

So it does not matter WHERE it does the deinterlacing really as long as it is done correctly. Didn't you ever wonder WHY the PQ looked the same despite all that has been said about the FULL1080P as a MARKETING campaign? The reason is that it is marketing, and that is all. That is why I advised people to get a A2/A3 if they had a good 1080p display, unless they wanted the higher end features the XA2 provided.

Both formats had their weaknesses, but the profile issues with BD were not getting enough exposure even by the media trying to advise people and so many people came here not even aware of it. THAT was my purpose to expose this weakness. There was public statement by the Denon Chief Technical Officer (a BD only CE) that said they had problems with the 1.0 BD players playing even just the movie with 1.1/2.0 encoded movies. This was not something fabricated by the HD DVD side, but it does turn out that they seem to have resolved this problem on the movie encoding side judging by the first titles coming on BD that seem to work with most players.

I always said that they SHOULD be able to resolve that issue and play the movie with a firmware update. The 1.0 players will NEVER be able to do those new features that are possible with 1.1/2.0 BD players but I am happy they resolved playing just the movie for the sake of the 1.0 BD player owners out there.

I like those features on HD DVD and I suspect that web interactivity will become a great feature once they get past the initial stage and figure out all the possibilities. The studios have said they think those interactive features would play a big part in getting people interested in upgrading to HD players & movies and I agree with them.
I won't argue with you. My point is that the profile issue is way over simplified into a "you can't watch any new movies on your blu-ray and you HAVE to buy a new one." That's not really true is it?

AND, when someone tries to use the argument that a stripped down version of the player (ie, 1080i only) is a good feature for consumer choice, but the profiles are death for consumers, that isn't exactly true either.

AND, when people say that BD players can't be upgrade or (fixed) that isn't exactly true either.

AND, when people say that HD-DVD is perfect out of the box, that isn't exactly true either. (If so, then why is my brand spanking new A30 already on rev 1.3? And why does the firmware details list bug fixes as reasons for the update?)

I'm not advocating any format at this point. It simply doesn't make sense. But I refuse to read stuff about how HD-DVD is "SO MUCH" better than BD, when the reality is at this point it's only marginally better.

You even said in your post:

"I like those features on HD DVD and I suspect that web interactivity will become a great feature once they get past the initial stage and figure out all the possibilities. The studios have said they think those interactive features would play a big part in getting people interested in upgrading to HD players & movies and I agree with them."

By the time any thing of value comes to HDM by way of internet connectivity, I'd be willing to bet that BD has resolved that issue.

I'm not saying you are wrong. Just saying people are not being fair, really on either side. Cause fankly the WB announcement is probably not that big of a deal as BD supporters want everyone to think either.
mobiushky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 05:28 PM   #81  
SD HURTS MY EYES
 
Stew4HD's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tejas Baby
Posts: 9,989
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
I won't argue with you. My point is that the profile issue is way over simplified into a "you can't watch any new movies on your blu-ray and you HAVE to buy a new one." That's not really true is it?

AND, when someone tries to use the argument that a stripped down version of the player (ie, 1080i only) is a good feature for consumer choice, but the profiles are death for consumers, that isn't exactly true either.

AND, when people say that BD players can't be upgrade or (fixed) that isn't exactly true either.

AND, when people say that HD-DVD is perfect out of the box, that isn't exactly true either. (If so, then why is my brand spanking new A30 already on rev 1.3? And why does the firmware details list bug fixes as reasons for the update?)

I'm not advocating any format at this point. It simply doesn't make sense. But I refuse to read stuff about how HD-DVD is "SO MUCH" better than BD, when the reality is at this point it's only marginally better.

You even said in your post:

"I like those features on HD DVD and I suspect that web interactivity will become a great feature once they get past the initial stage and figure out all the possibilities. The studios have said they think those interactive features would play a big part in getting people interested in upgrading to HD players & movies and I agree with them."

By the time any thing of value comes to HDM by way of internet connectivity, I'd be willing to bet that BD has resolved that issue.

I'm not saying you are wrong. Just saying people are not being fair, really on either side. Cause fankly the WB announcement is probably not that big of a deal as BD supporters want everyone to think either.
Where have you heard that HD DVD is perfect out of the box???? Do you realize that HD DVD supporters have heard nothing but how superior BD is to HD DVD all this time?

It goes both ways but the vast majority of chest thumpers have come from the blu side, that is what I hae witnessed over the past year... now we hear how poor and helpless BD fans have had to put up with so much crap from HD DVD supporters... sorry, but no sympathy from me
Stew4HD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 07:13 PM   #82  
Former Super Moderator - RIP
 
PFC5's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 38,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
I won't argue with you. My point is that the profile issue is way over simplified into a "you can't watch any new movies on your blu-ray and you HAVE to buy a new one." That's not really true is it?

AND, when someone tries to use the argument that a stripped down version of the player (ie, 1080i only) is a good feature for consumer choice, but the profiles are death for consumers, that isn't exactly true either.

AND, when people say that BD players can't be upgrade or (fixed) that isn't exactly true either.

AND, when people say that HD-DVD is perfect out of the box, that isn't exactly true either. (If so, then why is my brand spanking new A30 already on rev 1.3? And why does the firmware details list bug fixes as reasons for the update?)

I'm not advocating any format at this point. It simply doesn't make sense. But I refuse to read stuff about how HD-DVD is "SO MUCH" better than BD, when the reality is at this point it's only marginally better.

You even said in your post:

"I like those features on HD DVD and I suspect that web interactivity will become a great feature once they get past the initial stage and figure out all the possibilities. The studios have said they think those interactive features would play a big part in getting people interested in upgrading to HD players & movies and I agree with them."

By the time any thing of value comes to HDM by way of internet connectivity, I'd be willing to bet that BD has resolved that issue.

I'm not saying you are wrong. Just saying people are not being fair, really on either side. Cause fankly the WB announcement is probably not that big of a deal as BD supporters want everyone to think either.
There is no point in arguing about that 1080i issue. The experts have already said it is a non issue just like I have said. What a 1080i player allows is a lower entry price for MASS ADOPTION to all the people who have good 1080p displays (like yours & mine) that deinterlace properly, but more important caters to the 99% of the current HDTV market that only has 720p/1080i (CRT only) displays, WITHOUT the extra costs. It really is that simple.

As far as firmware updates THIS is the Achilles heal of BOTH formats as with any new technology unfortunately. It could be the downfall for mass acceptance too, but remember that there will always be updates for BD players to update the DRM when the next/each DRM crack is hacked. How long will the BD player mfg support those new updates to player newer movies on BD?

I notice you have a great sound system like I do, so you might be upset when you have to upgrade your receiver if you want the HD audio like i have and love. The current trend is HD audio codecs for BD movies now and fewer and fewer LPCM soundtracks (down to only 42% now) on all BD movies. All but ONE new BD player announced do not have ANY HD audio decoders in the players. That means a new expensive receiver because the BD format doesn't mandate HD decoding in the players like HD DVD does. They did this so YOU will have to buy a new receiver to get them. I expect this trend to accelerate now without the competition as I feared.

As far as Profile 1.0 BD player, NONE will will be upgradeable to higher profiles. In fact some are not powerful enough to fully handle BD-Java as it IS quite CPU intensive.

All this info comes from BD insider sources so it is really not disputable. If you want to believe that things are better now, that is fine by me. I hope you enjoy replacing that excellent receiver you already had BECAUSE the BD CE companies are also the biggest receiver companies and they can now force you to replace a perfectly good working receiver if you want HD audio now.

Last edited by PFC5; 01-09-2008 at 07:17 PM..
PFC5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 07:25 PM   #83  
pjc
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
You remember that. Like other HD DVD supporters, I've done some soul searching, and it's just stupid and stubborn to not buy HD movies in full 1080p because your chosen format didn't win. To me, it's (by far) the lesser of 2 evils (buying BD rather than abstain from HD optical). I have a really bad feeling that we're gonna here the word 'Sony' a lot for the next several years, but it is what it is...
Hell yeah....I am thinking of getting it myself. There is an HD trailer on PSN, so I will check that out tonight.
pjc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2008, 07:51 PM   #84  
Smarter than the ave bear
 
crazyal's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
when someone tries to use the argument that a stripped down version of the player (ie, 1080i only) is a good feature for consumer choice, but the profiles are death for consumers, that isn't exactly true either.

I'm not advocating any format at this point. It simply doesn't make sense. But I refuse to read stuff about how HD-DVD is "SO MUCH" better than BD, when the reality is at this point it's only marginally better.
Ask yourself why Toshiba sold so many A2/A3 players. IMO it's because they can sell them at a sub $100 price. A simple bare bones player that gave a great picture.

I'm not sure who said HD DVD was better than Blu-Ray, both do the exact same thing, play movies with great PQ and AQ, pretty much the same when you get past all the fud. HD DVD just positioned itself to work with SD DVD, after all since it is the DVD forum backing it they surely weren't going to slit it's throat.

If 1080p means that much to you then Toshiba had a player for you as well. You might not want to hold your breath on seeing 1080p coming into your house from a sat/ cable provider any time soon. They are strapped for bandwidth. All the equipment in people's houses right now can only handle 1080i and is not going to be replaced any time soon.

Blu-Ray has a lot to offer. I wouldn't talk anyone out of buying one. I will tell them the flaws I see and my opinions about how soon to get it.

Maybe this will help. If HD DVD made cars they would of had a line up of a economy car, a nice middle class car, and a top end sports car. Every car had all the options, sterio, power window, A/C, etc.

Blu-Ray on the other hand doesn't have anything less than the middle class car. All the CEMs seam to be racing to build a better top end model. The first Blu-Rays didn't have very many options. The players starting to come out now have more options and by this time next year all the options HD DVD had from the beggining will finally be out. Sure your current Blu-Ray car without power windows, A/C, etc. will drive down the road but it will never have the options (other than the PS3).

Most people are much happier making the choice not to spend the money on a feature and living with that choice. They don't like buying something only to find out if they waited they would have gotten more. That feeling will keep people on the sidelines.
crazyal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2008, 10:53 AM   #85  
More than meets the eyes!
 
mobiushky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: State of Insanity
Posts: 3,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5 View Post
There is no point in arguing about that 1080i issue. The experts have already said it is a non issue just like I have said. What a 1080i player allows is a lower entry price for MASS ADOPTION to all the people who have good 1080p displays (like yours & mine) that deinterlace properly, but more important caters to the 99% of the current HDTV market that only has 720p/1080i (CRT only) displays, WITHOUT the extra costs. It really is that simple.

As far as firmware updates THIS is the Achilles heal of BOTH formats as with any new technology unfortunately. It could be the downfall for mass acceptance too, but remember that there will always be updates for BD players to update the DRM when the next/each DRM crack is hacked. How long will the BD player mfg support those new updates to player newer movies on BD?

I notice you have a great sound system like I do, so you might be upset when you have to upgrade your receiver if you want the HD audio like i have and love. The current trend is HD audio codecs for BD movies now and fewer and fewer LPCM soundtracks (down to only 42% now) on all BD movies. All but ONE new BD player announced do not have ANY HD audio decoders in the players. That means a new expensive receiver because the BD format doesn't mandate HD decoding in the players like HD DVD does. They did this so YOU will have to buy a new receiver to get them. I expect this trend to accelerate now without the competition as I feared.

As far as Profile 1.0 BD player, NONE will will be upgradeable to higher profiles. In fact some are not powerful enough to fully handle BD-Java as it IS quite CPU intensive.

All this info comes from BD insider sources so it is really not disputable. If you want to believe that things are better now, that is fine by me. I hope you enjoy replacing that excellent receiver you already had BECAUSE the BD CE companies are also the biggest receiver companies and they can now force you to replace a perfectly good working receiver if you want HD audio now.
Yeah, I agree with your point on the receiver side, but then, I've been consistantly upgrading my receiver every couple years anyway, so I expect I'd do it anyway in a year. Realistically you have to in order to take advantage of any of the newer technology available anyway. That's the way it goes. For instance, HDMI 1.3b. My receiver doesn't support it. (Heck my receiver doesn't even do a really good job of supporting HDMI period.) My Pioneer doesn't support it. So when it becomes the standard, what am I gonna do? I have two choices, upgrade to take advantage of it, or stick with what I got and deal with not being able to take advantage of any new features. Don't worry, I know 1.3 is not the best example since it actually further strengthens your point. The point is, technology as a whole changes so rapidly that as soon as you buy anything, it's already being replaced by something else.

For the record, I never said or implied that profile 1 players could be updated to 1.1 or 2.0 (expcept the PS3, which is already essentially 2.0 just not activated yet.)

I will give HD-DVD props for at least including a lot of features that are really future thinking. They did a good job there. But if you think they are not going to need to update and upgrade their players in the near future for something else coming down the line, you are mistaken. Then you are faced with the same decision, upgrade to keep up, or stay where you are. What happens if optical video outputs hit the market place? Think about it. Now that video is going to digital, what's to stop somebody from developing a link similar to toslink that is fully optical and delivers audio and video over a fiber? How many current players/tvs/receivers etc are capable? None. So you have to upgrade. The cycle is never ending. There is always something just on the edge of the horizon that will make what I have obsolete.

That is why, to me, the profile thing with Blu-Ray is not that big of a deal. Early adopters are always the ones that get screwed! That's a fact. And it isn't just Sony that does it. Every electronics manufacturer does it, you know the dirty little secret is that they are in business to make money. Not to make you happy. And that's ok, making money is fine.

I think I just went a little overboard in being fed up with some much vitriol and hate for anyone vaguely supporting BD or vaguely dissing HD-DVD. (Not counting the BD fanboys and jerks, they deserve it.)

I am essentially format nuetral. I see the benefits and downfalls of both formats. (Remember, I bought an HD-DVD player first.) Should I be slammed with hate just because I can see some real benefits to BD that I can't see in HD-DVD? Or vice-versa? I don't care who wins, I just want it over so the entire industry can focus on content. I am happy that Warner chose, not because I back BD, but because I think maybe we can see a light at the end of the tunnel. I just wish Paramount and Universal would be more clear in their decisions and before the return period ends on my HD-DVD. I'll keep it as long as I know there will be movies, but with Warner's switch, I am Extremely tempted to return it anyway.

For the record, the vast majority of the movies I buy will be Disney and Warner. But I will probably buy Dreamworks too and some Paramount. (I bought the HD-DVD player and one movie: Transformers. That is the reason I bought the player.) But I have a real tough time justifying the expense of the player if I am only going to watch one movie on it. And if, as Michael Bay seems to think (lol), Transformers even hints that it could be out on Blu-Ray? I'm going blu period. And I really don't care what any HD-DVD nuts on this forum say, present company excepted of course.
mobiushky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2008, 04:38 PM   #86  
Former Super Moderator - RIP
 
PFC5's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 38,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
Yeah, I agree with your point on the receiver side, but then, I've been consistantly upgrading my receiver every couple years anyway, so I expect I'd do it anyway in a year. Realistically you have to in order to take advantage of any of the newer technology available anyway. That's the way it goes. For instance, HDMI 1.3b. My receiver doesn't support it. (Heck my receiver doesn't even do a really good job of supporting HDMI period.) My Pioneer doesn't support it. So when it becomes the standard, what am I gonna do? I have two choices, upgrade to take advantage of it, or stick with what I got and deal with not being able to take advantage of any new features. Don't worry, I know 1.3 is not the best example since it actually further strengthens your point. The point is, technology as a whole changes so rapidly that as soon as you buy anything, it's already being replaced by something else.

For the record, I never said or implied that profile 1 players could be updated to 1.1 or 2.0 (expcept the PS3, which is already essentially 2.0 just not activated yet.)

I will give HD-DVD props for at least including a lot of features that are really future thinking. They did a good job there. But if you think they are not going to need to update and upgrade their players in the near future for something else coming down the line, you are mistaken. Then you are faced with the same decision, upgrade to keep up, or stay where you are. What happens if optical video outputs hit the market place? Think about it. Now that video is going to digital, what's to stop somebody from developing a link similar to toslink that is fully optical and delivers audio and video over a fiber? How many current players/tvs/receivers etc are capable? None. So you have to upgrade. The cycle is never ending. There is always something just on the edge of the horizon that will make what I have obsolete.

That is why, to me, the profile thing with Blu-Ray is not that big of a deal. Early adopters are always the ones that get screwed! That's a fact. And it isn't just Sony that does it. Every electronics manufacturer does it, you know the dirty little secret is that they are in business to make money. Not to make you happy. And that's ok, making money is fine.

I think I just went a little overboard in being fed up with some much vitriol and hate for anyone vaguely supporting BD or vaguely dissing HD-DVD. (Not counting the BD fanboys and jerks, they deserve it.)

I am essentially format nuetral. I see the benefits and downfalls of both formats. (Remember, I bought an HD-DVD player first.) Should I be slammed with hate just because I can see some real benefits to BD that I can't see in HD-DVD? Or vice-versa? I don't care who wins, I just want it over so the entire industry can focus on content. I am happy that Warner chose, not because I back BD, but because I think maybe we can see a light at the end of the tunnel. I just wish Paramount and Universal would be more clear in their decisions and before the return period ends on my HD-DVD. I'll keep it as long as I know there will be movies, but with Warner's switch, I am Extremely tempted to return it anyway.

For the record, the vast majority of the movies I buy will be Disney and Warner. But I will probably buy Dreamworks too and some Paramount. (I bought the HD-DVD player and one movie: Transformers. That is the reason I bought the player.) But I have a real tough time justifying the expense of the player if I am only going to watch one movie on it. And if, as Michael Bay seems to think (lol), Transformers even hints that it could be out on Blu-Ray? I'm going blu period. And I really don't care what any HD-DVD nuts on this forum say, present company excepted of course.
I agree that early adopters must upgrade much more frequently but they do not necessarily get screwed. They do if they do not know they have to upgrade much more frequently though, so in that sense yes they do get screwed. They just pay a high cost to get it sooner than most people get it.

My point about the receivers are that with the trend seeming to move away from LPCM on soundtracks and NOT including the decoders in the BD players they will have most people either buying a much more expensive receiver OR living with standard DD/DTS sound on their new format. I was hopeful with the many of 2007 models of BD players that they were going to start including these HD audio decoders because with the HD audio licensing being free for mfg who already pay for the standard decoders in the unit it really doesn't cost much more to have it.

After seeing the new coming BD player models at CES, I think they are going back to the original game plan of leaving the HD audio decoders out of most semi-affordable BD players so that those same BD mfg can make sales on new expensive receivers. THAT, I believe is a big reason for those receiver mfg supporting BD from the start. I made a decision last year to get a HDMI receiver when I caught a bargain on my Denon so I could get HD audio with the PS3, AND to matrix the rear surround speaker that I stopped having use of with the analog inputs. I saw hope that BD players WERE starting to add the HD decoders in the players, but that has changed now.

Without HD audio sound there is little reason for me to change to BD at this point. I have always put more emphasis on SQ with movies over PQ. I always felt that it got me "into" the movie more than the PQ did. I suspect you are the same looking at your sound equipment in your signature too.

I felt the war STILL had a lot of good to offer consumers until we had mass market prices on BD players that are 2.0 with HD audio decoding built into them. At that point it would not "matter" which format "won". Unfortunately for consumers, that did not happen and I believe BD will be a niche format unless they get to that level of features AND price by the end of 2008. After that I think the half life of the BD format will be over and it will be too late for most people to bother. Again this is just what I believe and I could be wrong.

I will watch the next year to see if the BDA wants my business or not. If they do not, I am not going to give it to them. PERIOD!
PFC5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2008, 04:56 PM   #87  
More than meets the eyes!
 
mobiushky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: State of Insanity
Posts: 3,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5 View Post
I agree that early adopters must upgrade much more frequently but they do not necessarily get screwed. They do if they do not know they have to upgrade much more frequently though, so in that sense yes they do get screwed. They just pay a high cost to get it sooner than most people get it.

My point about the receivers are that with the trend seeming to move away from LPCM on soundtracks and NOT including the decoders in the BD players they will have most people either buying a much more expensive receiver OR living with standard DD/DTS sound on their new format. I was hopeful with the many of 2007 models of BD players that they were going to start including these HD audio decoders because with the HD audio licensing being free for mfg who already pay for the standard decoders in the unit it really doesn't cost much more to have it.

After seeing the new coming BD player models at CES, I think they are going back to the original game plan of leaving the HD audio decoders out of most semi-affordable BD players so that those same BD mfg can make sales on new expensive receivers. THAT, I believe is a big reason for those receiver mfg supporting BD from the start. I made a decision last year to get a HDMI receiver when I caught a bargain on my Denon so I could get HD audio with the PS3, AND to matrix the rear surround speaker that I stopped having use of with the analog inputs. I saw hope that BD players WERE starting to add the HD decoders in the players, but that has changed now.

Without HD audio sound there is little reason for me to change to BD at this point. I have always put more emphasis on SQ with movies over PQ. I always felt that it got me "into" the movie more than the PQ did. I suspect you are the same looking at your sound equipment in your signature too.

I felt the war STILL had a lot of good to offer consumers until we had mass market prices on BD players that are 2.0 with HD audio decoding built into them. At that point it would not "matter" which format "won". Unfortunately for consumers, that did not happen and I believe BD will be a niche format unless they get to that level of features AND price by the end of 2008. After that I think the half life of the BD format will be over and it will be too late for most people to bother. Again this is just what I believe and I could be wrong.

I will watch the next year to see if the BDA wants my business or not. If they do not, I am not going to give it to them. PERIOD!
But now we are back to the point of a lesser player being good for a budget minded consumer, are we not? If you feel that a lesser built HD-DVD player is good for the consumer market who doesn't have a 1080p/24Hz tv, then why is a lesser BD player without the decoding that wouldn't sound all that great on built in TV speakers anyway, a bad thing?

How many of the millions out there, say they do finally get that budget stripped down BD player, are going to have a sound system that can even come close to replicating the TrueHD tracks anyway? How many of them use the TV speakers and that's it? Don't take me wrong, I'm still not advocating BD to anyone yet. But if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander, no?

How many current DVD players come with Dolby digital decoders built in? Did that stop you from buying a dvd player? Being an audio/video-phile, you probably did the same thing I did and spent the money on a receiver that did the decoding for you. I see that happening with BD if they win. It's not new, it's kind of more of the same. And it really does give the consumer a choice.
mobiushky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2008, 07:24 PM   #88  
Former Super Moderator - RIP
 
PFC5's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 38,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
But now we are back to the point of a lesser player being good for a budget minded consumer, are we not? If you feel that a lesser built HD-DVD player is good for the consumer market who doesn't have a 1080p/24Hz tv, then why is a lesser BD player without the decoding that wouldn't sound all that great on built in TV speakers anyway, a bad thing?

How many of the millions out there, say they do finally get that budget stripped down BD player, are going to have a sound system that can even come close to replicating the TrueHD tracks anyway? How many of them use the TV speakers and that's it? Don't take me wrong, I'm still not advocating BD to anyone yet. But if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander, no?

How many current DVD players come with Dolby digital decoders built in? Did that stop you from buying a dvd player? Being an audio/video-phile, you probably did the same thing I did and spent the money on a receiver that did the decoding for you. I see that happening with BD if they win. It's not new, it's kind of more of the same. And it really does give the consumer a choice.
When I bought my first Yamaha receiver with DD 5.1, DTS decoding cost $300.00 for the otherwise same receiver. I decided to not spend the additional money for DTS back then because hardly any titles had it anyway. Once more titles ( but not as many as I wanted) came out with DTS, I bought a player with those decoders built-in. I own 4 of them now with the decoders buit in and have since replaced that receiver 3 more times (2 Yamahas & the current Denon HDMI receiver) in the main HT room.

I see what you are getting at, but I was thinking more along the lines of what I will do regarding HD audio leaving me on the sidelines with BD. The problem right now is that the only HD audio decoding receivers I know of that are out there right now and anywhere NEAR affordable, are the Onkyo receivers.

They made good STEREO receivers, but I do not like their HT receivers AT ALL. My friend has the 604 model and it has WAY too much reverb in it, and it is unnatural in the audio department for me. AFAIK, the 605 (with HD audio decoding) is basically the same as the 604 but with the added HDMI 1.3a & HD decoders. My Denon and Yamaha receivers blow the Onkyo away in SQ IMO.

Also, Onkyo receivers are a horrible match for Klipsch speakers, because the Onkyo receivers are bright sounding and so are the Klipsch. Klipsch are a good match with neutral (Denon/Yamaha) receivers or warm(er) receivers (Pioneer/HK).

No way I am getting rid of my Klipsch RP-5 speakers until/if they die or I win the lottery. I love them. My friend who bought the Onkyo 604 ended up getting rid of his Klipsch speakers for this reason and has replaced them with B&W speakers now and it is STILL inferior in SQ compared to my sound system. Even HE admits this.
PFC5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2008, 10:41 PM   #89  
More than meets the eyes!
 
mobiushky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: State of Insanity
Posts: 3,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5 View Post
When I bought my first Yamaha receiver with DD 5.1, DTS decoding cost $300.00 for the otherwise same receiver. I decided to not spend the additional money for DTS back then because hardly any titles had it anyway. Once more titles ( but not as many as I wanted) came out with DTS, I bought a player with those decoders built-in. I own 4 of them now with the decoders buit in and have since replaced that receiver 3 more times (2 Yamahas & the current Denon HDMI receiver) in the main HT room.

I see what you are getting at, but I was thinking more along the lines of what I will do regarding HD audio leaving me on the sidelines with BD. The problem right now is that the only HD audio decoding receivers I know of that are out there right now and anywhere NEAR affordable, are the Onkyo receivers.

They made good STEREO receivers, but I do not like their HT receivers AT ALL. My friend has the 604 model and it has WAY too much reverb in it, and it is unnatural in the audio department for me. AFAIK, the 605 (with HD audio decoding) is basically the same as the 604 but with the added HDMI 1.3a & HD decoders. My Denon and Yamaha receivers blow the Onkyo away in SQ IMO.

Also, Onkyo receivers are a horrible match for Klipsch speakers, because the Onkyo receivers are bright sounding and so are the Klipsch. Klipsch are a good match with neutral (Denon/Yamaha) receivers or warm(er) receivers (Pioneer/HK).

No way I am getting rid of my Klipsch RP-5 speakers until/if they die or I win the lottery. I love them. My friend who bought the Onkyo 604 ended up getting rid of his Klipsch speakers for this reason and has replaced them with B&W speakers now and it is STILL inferior in SQ compared to my sound system. Even HE admits this.
Klipsch. Ahhhh..... (sound of relaxation.) OK, back to life ...lol.

I'll probably go with something like the pioneer VSX-91TXH. It's not quite the cheapest, but it's right in line with what I want. Of course it's going to be about a year or so, so I'm sure something will be different.

But here's an interesting thing I just learned about my A30. Even though it says it can decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS, it can't. Well maybe it can, but there is no way for it to output the seperate channels to my receiver. According to several websites I am reading:
Dolby.com, AVtruths.com, avforums.com, hidefdigest.com etc, etc. The only way to truly get HD sound is to use the analog 5.1 outputs on the back of the HD-DVD player as the toslink only supports coded output, essentially bypassing the decoder.... Uh, my A30 doesn't have 5.1 outputs.... Only r/l analog. So what I am reading is that my HD audio is totally useless anyway unless I have a receiver with a decoder.

The only other way that I can get TrueHD audio is over HDMI, which ends up having to have the decoder in the receiver....

SOOOO, unless I get the absolute top of the line HD-DVD player, even though the decoder is "built-in" there is no way to get it out.

So, please don't take this the wrong way, but I think I just got screwed by Toshiba... AND, only the highest level of players actually can give you the HD audio unless you have the decoder in your receiver. That's exactly what BD is doing, only they aren't bothering to say the lower end ones can do the Dolby TrueHD. Am I wrong here? If that is the case, that's the last straw for me and the A30 is going back ASAP.
mobiushky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2008, 11:03 PM   #90  
Former Super Moderator - RIP
 
PFC5's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 38,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobiushky View Post
Klipsch. Ahhhh..... (sound of relaxation.) OK, back to life ...lol.

I'll probably go with something like the pioneer VSX-91TXH. It's not quite the cheapest, but it's right in line with what I want. Of course it's going to be about a year or so, so I'm sure something will be different.

But here's an interesting thing I just learned about my A30. Even though it says it can decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS, it can't. Well maybe it can, but there is no way for it to output the seperate channels to my receiver. According to several websites I am reading:
Dolby.com, AVtruths.com, avforums.com, hidefdigest.com etc, etc. The only way to truly get HD sound is to use the analog 5.1 outputs on the back of the HD-DVD player as the toslink only supports coded output, essentially bypassing the decoder.... Uh, my A30 doesn't have 5.1 outputs.... Only r/l analog. So what I am reading is that my HD audio is totally useless anyway unless I have a receiver with a decoder.

The only other way that I can get TrueHD audio is over HDMI, which ends up having to have the decoder in the receiver....

SOOOO, unless I get the absolute top of the line HD-DVD player, even though the decoder is "built-in" there is no way to get it out.

So, please don't take this the wrong way, but I think I just got screwed by Toshiba... AND, only the highest level of players actually can give you the HD audio unless you have the decoder in your receiver. That's exactly what BD is doing, only they aren't bothering to say the lower end ones can do the Dolby TrueHD. Am I wrong here? If that is the case, that's the last straw for me and the A30 is going back ASAP.
All you need is a HDMI version 1.1 receiver to get lossless audio with ANY HD DVD player. That is what I have and I AM getting DtHD over HDMI, and my receiver DEFINITELY does NOT have the HD audio decoders in it. The only other way is with analog which your player does not have.
PFC5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource >
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


to ROLL CALL: HD DVD supporters that bought Blu
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HD-DVD/Blu-ray Supporters Roll-Call fryet HD DVD Players and Discs 163 03-14-2007 08:30 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:14 PM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004 - 2018, MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands