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A few facts that you might not know

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Old 02-15-2007, 02:39 AM   #1  
How can anyone watch standard def?
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Default A few facts that you might not know

i just came across this forum recently when i was doing my research.

before you jump on a bandwagon and say HD DVD is better because it looks better or sounds better, or BD is better because the Image quality or sound Q is better. here are some facts that both SONY or Toshiba might have forgotten to mention to you when you go shop for a high def experience.

yes, i may be a tech geek or nerd whatever you call it. but it's better you know more now than finding out years down the road "doh!.. should've gone with the other one".

first of all, BOTH FORMAT UTILIZE THE BLUE LASER. you might have heard it differently from you local bestbuy sales agent. but the matter of fact is, they both are blue laser based.

now onto the sound.

"Both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc support DD+. The way DD+ is encoded in each format differs significantly. On HD DVD, DD+ is a mandatory audio-codec for both player-hardware and movie-software. This means that all HD DVD players are required to support DD+ decoding and output, and an HD DVD movie may use DD+ to deliver the primary (sole) soundtrack. The DD+ stream is stored as an independent, self-contained bitstream. HD DVD limits the peak bitrate to 3 Mbit/s.

HD DVD players must internally mix interactive audio with audio from the disc. Therefore, current players are downmixing the content into commonly supported audio formats. See the section on downmixing.

On Blu-ray Discs, DD+ is an optional audio-codec. On Blu-ray movies, if DD+ is present, it must be encoded as extensions to an existing legacy 640 kbit/s Dolby Digital bitstream (which must be present.) For 5.1 channel sound, the full DD+ stream consists of the DD stream plus a 1.024 Mbit/s 5.1 channel extension packet, for a total bitrate of 1.7 Mbit/s. In the future, Blu-ray may make use of up to four extension packets plus the Dolby Digital packet for a maximum of 4.7 Mbit/s.[3]"

source: wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_D...#Codec_changes

while both players support Dolby digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD. Dolby Digital Plus is a mandatory soundtrack in all HD DVD movies while it only appears as an optional soundtrack for BD. that means, all Blue Ray movies you buy won't have DD+, instead, you get the conventional Dolby Digital 5.1 (or known as AC3) at 640kb/s or the conventional DTS instead of the 3000kb/s sound quality in DD+. and for BD to add the optional DD+ into its sound stream, it has to combine it with the original Dolby Digital AC3 stream as a result, the maximum sound quality is only 1700kb/s. both formats however "CAN" support the even higher quality audio in Dolby TrueHD (up to 18Mb/s, or 18000kb/s) as an OPTIONAL choice.

here's a diagram that puts it in picture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Digital#Versions
scroll to the mid bottom page for the graph



------------------------------------------------------------------

now, onto the video.

both formats support MPEG4, AVC (H.264), VC-1 and MPEG2 video codec. while MPEG2 present good image quality, it's a fairly old technology (been used for the past some 15-20 years) H.264 is currently the highest quality High Definintion video compression available. VC-1 is right in the middle of H.264 and MPEG2/4 as far as quality goes.

"The first generation of Blu-ray Disc movies released used MPEG-2 (the standard currently used in DVDs, although encoded at a much higher video resolution and a much higher bit rate than those used on conventional DVDs), while initial HD DVDs releases used the VC-1 codec. Due to greater total disc capacity, the Blu-ray Disc may choose in the future to utilize a higher maximum video bit rate, as well as potentially higher average bit rates."

source: wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Overview
----------------------------------------------------------------------

now onto storage

there's no doubt that Blue Ray DVD currently has the highest capacity of storage, up to 50GB of dual layer single side disc. and on top of that, Blue ray disc has a faster rate of data transfer rate of up to 54 Mb/s (that's 54000kb/s) while HD DVD in contrary can only do 36.5 Mb/s (36500kb/s). that means when you're in a hurry to record a show, or store something, BD is going to do that job faster than the HD DVD can. however, recently published work have shown that Toshiba has now developed a triple layer HD DVD that holds up to 51GB of storage space. however, no official word has been confirmed on the integration of this new technology in the very near future. chances are we might have to wait a little.


source: PCworld
http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/003423.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------

if you already have purchased one format and now are having second thoughts, don't worry, this doesn't mean you have to get rid of your thousand dollar equipment. fortunate enough for all of us, today Warner Brother has just announced that it'll officially support the TotalHD. it means one side of the disc will have Blue Ray while the other will carry HD DVD. IMO this is a great bang for the bucks for us consumers, getting both formats on one disc.

source: EngadgetHD
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/09...f-hybrid-disc/


-----------------------------------------------------------------

of course, you don't have to listen to any of the stuff i just wrote, but i do encourage you to at least read up on the source articles before you give out a judgement.

i think in this modern technological advanced era, it is better for us consumer to know more than regret later.
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Old 02-15-2007, 07:21 AM   #2  
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Great post and I'm with you up until this point...
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854
...if you already have purchased one format and now are having second thoughts, don't worry, this doesn't mean you have to get rid of your thousand dollar equipment. fortunate enough for all of us, today Warner Brother has just announced that it'll officially support the TotalHD. it means one side of the disc will have Blue Ray while the other will carry HD DVD. IMO this is a great bang for the bucks for us consumers, getting both formats on one disc.

source: EngadgetHD
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/09...f-hybrid-disc/...
I don't find the move by Warner to be fortunate at all, especially if TotalHD discs are the only type produced for all of their titles. I haven't seen any numbers so, my fear is only based on speculation at this point but, I would venture to guess that TotalHD discs will retail at a higher price than either HD DVD's or BD's. Probably more along the lines of the SD/HD DVD Combo's. For consumers who have made a format choice and are happy with that choice, I see this as dis-adventageous.

Heck, I don't even want to pay more for SD/HD Combo's, let alone HD/BD Combos... I may be in the minority on this but, the combo discs will drive me toward renting more and buying less. Another guess is that this is not the consumer behavior that studios have in mind as they're releasing their "Combo" discs.

IMHO, Combo's smell of desperate marketing strategies... unclear, unfocused and ambiguous messages... That or brilliant marketing strategies designed to bilk consumers... I can't really decide which condition applies.

Just my $.02

Last edited by Allin4greeN; 02-15-2007 at 07:27 AM..
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Old 02-15-2007, 10:28 AM   #3  
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Howzz:

Nice first post and welcome to HFF.

TotalHD discs are not a bad idea if they cost NO MORE than either combos or individual separate HD format discs. The problem is almost everyone thinks they will cost something like $5.00 more than even combo discs. Having the largest content studio doing this with all their movies will drive the rental business and kill the buying business IMO.
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Old 02-15-2007, 10:44 AM   #4  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854
i just came across this forum recently when i was doing my research.

before you jump on a bandwagon and say HD DVD is better because it looks better or sounds better, or BD is better because the Image quality or sound Q is better. here are some facts that both SONY or Toshiba might have forgotten to mention to you when you go shop for a high def experience.

yes, i may be a tech geek or nerd whatever you call it. but it's better you know more now than finding out years down the road "doh!.. should've gone with the other one".

first of all, BOTH FORMAT UTILIZE THE BLUE LASER. you might have heard it differently from you local bestbuy sales agent. but the matter of fact is, they both are blue laser based.

now onto the sound.

"Both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc support DD+. The way DD+ is encoded in each format differs significantly. On HD DVD, DD+ is a mandatory audio-codec for both player-hardware and movie-software. This means that all HD DVD players are required to support DD+ decoding and output, and an HD DVD movie may use DD+ to deliver the primary (sole) soundtrack. The DD+ stream is stored as an independent, self-contained bitstream. HD DVD limits the peak bitrate to 3 Mbit/s.

HD DVD players must internally mix interactive audio with audio from the disc. Therefore, current players are downmixing the content into commonly supported audio formats. See the section on downmixing.

On Blu-ray Discs, DD+ is an optional audio-codec. On Blu-ray movies, if DD+ is present, it must be encoded as extensions to an existing legacy 640 kbit/s Dolby Digital bitstream (which must be present.) For 5.1 channel sound, the full DD+ stream consists of the DD stream plus a 1.024 Mbit/s 5.1 channel extension packet, for a total bitrate of 1.7 Mbit/s. In the future, Blu-ray may make use of up to four extension packets plus the Dolby Digital packet for a maximum of 4.7 Mbit/s.[3]"

source: wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_D...#Codec_changes

while both players support Dolby digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD. Dolby Digital Plus is a mandatory soundtrack in all HD DVD movies while it only appears as an optional soundtrack for BD. that means, all Blue Ray movies you buy won't have DD+, instead, you get the conventional Dolby Digital 5.1 (or known as AC3) at 640kb/s or the conventional DTS instead of the 3000kb/s sound quality in DD+. and for BD to add the optional DD+ into its sound stream, it has to combine it with the original Dolby Digital AC3 stream as a result, the maximum sound quality is only 1700kb/s. both formats however "CAN" support the even higher quality audio in Dolby TrueHD (up to 18Mb/s, or 18000kb/s) as an OPTIONAL choice.

here's a diagram that puts it in picture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Digital#Versions
scroll to the mid bottom page for the graph



------------------------------------------------------------------

now, onto the video.

both formats support MPEG4, AVC (H.264), VC-1 and MPEG2 video codec. while MPEG2 present good image quality, it's a fairly old technology (been used for the past some 15-20 years) H.264 is currently the highest quality High Definintion video compression available. VC-1 is right in the middle of H.264 and MPEG2/4 as far as quality goes.

"The first generation of Blu-ray Disc movies released used MPEG-2 (the standard currently used in DVDs, although encoded at a much higher video resolution and a much higher bit rate than those used on conventional DVDs), while initial HD DVDs releases used the VC-1 codec. Due to greater total disc capacity, the Blu-ray Disc may choose in the future to utilize a higher maximum video bit rate, as well as potentially higher average bit rates."

source: wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Overview
----------------------------------------------------------------------

now onto storage

there's no doubt that Blue Ray DVD currently has the highest capacity of storage, up to 50GB of dual layer single side disc. and on top of that, Blue ray disc has a faster rate of data transfer rate of up to 54 Mb/s (that's 54000kb/s) while HD DVD in contrary can only do 36.5 Mb/s (36500kb/s). that means when you're in a hurry to record a show, or store something, BD is going to do that job faster than the HD DVD can. however, recently published work have shown that Toshiba has now developed a triple layer HD DVD that holds up to 51GB of storage space. however, no official word has been confirmed on the integration of this new technology in the very near future. chances are we might have to wait a little.


source: PCworld
http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/003423.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------

if you already have purchased one format and now are having second thoughts, don't worry, this doesn't mean you have to get rid of your thousand dollar equipment. fortunate enough for all of us, today Warner Brother has just announced that it'll officially support the TotalHD. it means one side of the disc will have Blue Ray while the other will carry HD DVD. IMO this is a great bang for the bucks for us consumers, getting both formats on one disc.

source: EngadgetHD
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/09...f-hybrid-disc/


-----------------------------------------------------------------

of course, you don't have to listen to any of the stuff i just wrote, but i do encourage you to at least read up on the source articles before you give out a judgement.

i think in this modern technological advanced era, it is better for us consumer to know more than regret later.

First of all, welcome to the forum. Second, you might have wanted to do a little research here before your post. This is a tech forum, your not talking to you average BB customer. The things you posted have been discussed at length on this forum time and time again.

Also I think some of your conclusions are a little off base. I think a fairly large number of people would disagree with you that AVC is better than VC1. It's possible that the specs give it an edge, but you certainly can't make the argument that the quality is better.

Also, we may have to wait a little while for the TL45, but no one is going to be doing a lot of recording for a while either with the price of discs being what they are.

The storage point is moot, let me ask you a question. When people actually start burning BD discs will there be sufficient scratch protection, will the recordable media have the durabis coating? How will that effect not only disc prices but the burning process itself. If a scratch resistant coating can be used , wont that keep the price of blank media higher. To many unanswered questions IMO.

I am in agreement with Allin4greeN, I also don't like the TotalHD discs, it prolongs the format war and I just don't see these discs costing the same as a standard HD DVD disc. I don't want dual sided discs for one reason: cost. My movie library is somewhere around 400 titles. I do not want or need another copy of the SD DVD release of titles I already have. Especially at a higher cost.

Once again welcome to the forum.

Last edited by cousin eddie; 02-15-2007 at 10:56 AM..
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:45 AM   #5  
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Welcome to the forum. I don't mind when people make posts like this. They serve as a reminder.

Last edited by El Despairado; 02-15-2007 at 11:53 AM..
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Old 02-15-2007, 06:08 PM   #6  
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Yes, I found the post to be a good summary. I also missed the news that combo HD-DVD/BR disks were going to be released, so that was informative for me as well.
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Old 02-17-2007, 02:23 AM   #7  
How can anyone watch standard def?
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i am glad some people find it useful. and i apologize if this has been discussed before.

as for the H264 and VC1 debate, i apologize if i sounded too subjective.
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Old 02-17-2007, 02:55 AM   #8  
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Welcome...its always nice to have a new member that doesnt have the following in "keyword/phrases" in the their first post

"Way Better!,BD pwns! Inferior Tech.." so on and so forth.
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