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Crazy Bluray pricing!

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Old 07-16-2012, 12:54 PM   #106
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I don't think that the studios see any revenue from pawn shops, flea markets and second hand stores that sell dvds and bds. Sue them for billions in lost revenue, and don't forget the garage and yard sales.

I thought the torrents were from guys sitting in a theater with a cam shooting a crappy looking and sounding version of the movie.
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:41 PM   #107
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The studios do not set retail pricing at brick and mortar stores, retailers do. Some exceptions of course.

Throughout the years including well before Blu-ray the studios openly expressed concerns that $5 DVD dump bins at Walmart and deep loss leader sales and low catalog pricing would devalue content.

Its a conversation that's been going on well before Blu-ray came around.

For the most part though, the studios make their wholesale price and its the retailers that take the smaller margins from the lower pricing but they are in the best situation to judge what maximizes their profit equations in the longer term.

With Blu-ray pricing at retail, what you see is a broad mix of prices for blue colored cases at a typical retailer with only a small portion of Blu-ray titles being sold at the Blu-ray bargain area at discount pricing.

What's tended to happen now over time is that for whatever class or lifecycle of a release the Blu-ray version is trending to be about $5 over the DVD sku price.

But overall there has not been that much of a change in the past year, actually since 4Q 2010 in Blu-ray pricing even if the mix changes constantly from what's on sale from week to week.

But it hardly earth shattering to see that Walmart as the world's largest low price retailer would offer some Blu-ray titles as low as $8 to $15, Best Buy Target and Amazon have been doing it as well for years now. What you see though is in the same store Blu-ray titles priced far greater than that and even some near MSRP.

There is a legitimate strategy at retail to offer some prices at low sale priced bargain levels for some titles and hold higher prices for a lot of the other items in stock as well. Consumers tend to like pricing in the middle of selections and a mix of prices offers usually the better returns.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:55 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
The studios do not set retail pricing at brick and mortar stores, retailers do. Some exceptions of course.

Throughout the years including well before Blu-ray the studios openly expressed concerns that $5 DVD dump bins at Walmart and deep loss leader sales and low catalog pricing would devalue content.

Its a conversation that's been going on well before Blu-ray came around.

For the most part though, the studios make their wholesale price and its the retailers that take the smaller margins from the lower pricing but they are in the best situation to judge what maximizes their profit equations in the longer term.
I hope you are not making the assumption that the retailers are using a smaller markup factor for the bargain bin titles. The studios set the wholesale prices but they are not fixed over time and those wholesale prices are by and large reflected in the retail price. Don't make it sound as if the retailers are taking the hit for a price that hasn't been able to move fast enough at the (original) higher price. There is occasional "loss leader" pricing but it is not very common and is restricted to day and date and not bargain bin. By and large they likely follow a simple percentage markup across the board.

Quote:
With Blu-ray pricing at retail, what you see is a broad mix of prices for blue colored cases at a typical retailer with only a small portion of Blu-ray titles being sold at the Blu-ray at a discount pricing.

What's tended to happen now over time is that for whatever class or lifecycle of a release the Blu-ray version is trending to be about $5 over the DVD sku price.
So it's only $5 more now? You said it was "almost double" on several occasions.

Quote:
But overall there has not been that much of a change in the past year, actually since 4Q 2010 in Blu-ray pricing even if the mix changes constantly from what's on sale from week to week.
The change is mostly been on the catalog end, which won't be accurately reflected in the HMM unit figures because BD catalog sales are perhaps only about 30% of the total. Furthermore, the increase in 3D SKU sales has probably resulted in a slight increase in the average day and date price.

Quote:
But it hardly earth shattering to see that Walmart as the world's largest low price retailer would offer some Blu-ray titles as low as $8 to $15, Best Buy Target and Amazon have been doing it as well for years now.
So Best Buy and Target are a step ahead of Walmart in the bargain bin price game. That's news to me and I'm sure others here as well.

Quote:
What you see though is in the same store Blu-ray titles priced far greater than that and even some near MSRP. There is a legitimate strategy at retail to offer some prices at low sale priced bargain levels for some titles and hold higher prices for a lot of the other items in stock as well. Consumers tend to like pricing in the middle of selections and a mix of prices offers usually the better returns.
High priced catalog don't move well. They're mostly just for show and to wait their turn for a sale so they can finally move. So the average price paid is in no way reflected by taking the average of the titles represented there, but rather the total revenue sold divided by the number of copies sold.

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Old 07-16-2012, 03:20 PM   #109
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When I was younger (around 15-20 years ago), I could spend hours and hours searching the internet for all kinds of warez. This was before search engines like google, infoseek, altavista, etc ... were around. Back then I would just leave the modem connection on all night downloading stuff (on a 14.4 kbit/s modem).

As I got older, I found I had less and less patience for searching and downloading stuff for hours and hours on end. This is especially the case for less popular tv shows, movies, music, etc ... (ie. Searching for single episodes, songs, etc ... which don't show up at all). Easier to just to buy the dvd, cd, etc ... at a nearby WM, BB, amazon, etc ... or other discount outlets. I rather spend $15 on a tv season dvd set, than spending hours and hours searching and downloading every episode of the season.
Exactly. That's why I think the impact of video piracy is a little exaggerated. What was the video quality of those 20 million copies of Avatar pirated? Probably not very good at all and if it was, then it probably took forever to download. That WWI doc I downloaded was from a 7 disc dvd set so that's probably around 50GB total. But the file I downloaded was only around 10GB and it took my PC a full 24 day to do it. And all that for a crappy quality picture.

If people are spending tons of time and bandwidth for meh product, then those are the type of people (those that spend an hour to save a buck) that probably wouldn't have bought it anyway.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:28 PM   #110
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Bruce, I think there are generations of people being raised to download media (music, movies, TV, etc) for free off the internet and they don't think twice about it. I think the studios, at some point, will most likely be successful in passing federal and/or state laws that leverage technology to better stop this type of activity. I don't think quality is as big a concern for many of these people, but you can get HD rips out there.

That WWI doc looks really interesting. I am a war buff myself and would probably really dig this as I have not seen many good WWI documentaries.

My guess is that it depends on the footage and how much it would cost to bring this on BD. Probably not high on the list so getting the DVD seems safe, although this seems pricey.

I try not to buy DVD's anymore for myself, but we still buy some for the kids as many shows like Scooby Doo that they love are not on BD. I guess if it is something you really want, then buy it. I just checked Netflix and they have some WWI series (one even has the same name) but it does not appear to be this film so streaming in the US may not be an option.
Watched a couple episodes of youtube quality on my PC and it is really interesting. Almost on par with the WWII World at War series. Really want to see it on my big screen though, and stuff like this is actually OK for DVD, I don't think it'll look much better on Blu-ray. I'm just going to wait for a better price from a 3rd party seller who'll ship to the U.S. The prices on Amazon.com are ridiculous.

I'm a war buff also, mostly WW2 and the Civil War though. I want to learn more about WWI as it seems to be underrepresented as far as war docs go. After all, the good guys won that one too.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:34 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
I hope you are not making the assumption that the retailers are using a smaller markup factor for the bargain bin titles. The studios set the wholesale prices but they are not fixed over time and those wholesale prices are by and large reflected in the retail price. Don't make it sound as if the retailers are taking the hit for a price that hasn't been able to move fast enough at the (original) higher price. There is occasional "loss leader" pricing but it is not very common and is restricted to day and date and not bargain bin. By and large they likely follow a simple percentage markup across the board.
Some of the "bargain bin" or promotionally priced priced titles are packaged like that from distributors or occasionally the studios themselves for major sales like Black Friday.

Indeed over time titles are reduced in price at the wholesale level or are repackaged and sold at retail in bundles from resellers other than the studios themselves or their normal distributors.

Generally its the retailers that are indeed taking lower margins for the lower retail pricing but usually its still above their wholesale cost. But it certainly happens that retailers sell some stock for what they can get as they sell it to exhaustion.


Quote:
So it's only $5 more now? You said it was "almost double" on several occasions.
Sku to sku the Blu-ray versions trend to be about $5 more than the same title in a DVD version.

The average Blu-ray unit sold each week is about double the average price paid for a DVD unit according to the HMM unit sales data and other sources.

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The change is mostly been on the catalog end, which won't be accurately reflected in the HMM unit figures because BD catalog sales are perhaps only about 30% of the total.
Perhaps, but I still think its been pretty stable since 4Q 2010 for catalog as well. Its nothing new to see select Blu-ray catalog titles under $9.99 at major retailers. The effective price may be down a little based on things like Best Buy's DVD trade in program, but I doubt its that significant.

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Furthermore, the increase in 3D SKU sales has probably resulted in a slight increase in the average day and date price.
That may be true. Blu-ray 3D combos are gaining more and more marketshare and their continued success will add to the profits and the average price sold metric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty
But it hardly earth shattering to see that Walmart as the world's largest low price retailer would offer some Blu-ray titles as low as $8 to $15, Best Buy Target and Amazon have been doing it as well for years now.
Quote:
So Best Buy and Target are a step ahead of Walmart in the bargain bin price game. That's news to me and I'm sure others here as well.
You misunderstood what I said. I said "as well" for those retailers and did not mean to imply that they did it first. But Best Buy and Amazon had much larger marketshare than Walmart did in past years and I guess its possible one of them did do it first, but that's not what I meant. What I meant was its nothing unusual for all of those major retailers to offer bargain priced Blu-ray titles alongside higher priced units. The OP implied not only its something new but a bad sign for Blu-ray while I'll assert its been routinely happening for years now and its routine retail pricing.



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High priced catalog don't move well. They're mostly just for show and to wait their turn for a sale so they can finally move. So the average price paid is in no way reflected by taking the average of the titles represented there, but rather the total revenue sold divided by the number of copies sold.

MSRP priced catalog titles do sell some number of units to consumers that are less price sensitive and have a strong desire to possess that title right now.

Having higher priced units on the shelves next to units on sale is a routine, traditional, valued and effective retail strategy that does many things. It establishes the value of the category, it makes things on sale look like more of a bargain, it encourages consumers to buy the sale priced items " right now" as the bargain might be fleeting and it also harvests more revenues from those consumers that want the higher priced item "right now" and are willing to pay the non sale price.
.
Lots of reasons to have some titles on the shelves at bargain prices alongside titles that are more normally priced along with premium skus as well. Having a $5 to $10 step up between categories or between the base , plus and premium skus for the titles is probably close to an idea from a pricing theory perspective.

Quote:
So the average price paid is in no way reflected by taking the average of the titles represented there, but rather the total revenue sold divided by the number of copies sold.
We get that data point of average price per unit sold for DVD and Blu-ray each week from HMM going back to January 2010.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:37 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Exactly. That's why I think the impact of video piracy is a little exaggerated. What was the video quality of those 20 million copies of Avatar pirated? Probably not very good at all and if it was, then it probably took forever to download. That WWI doc I downloaded was from a 7 disc dvd set so that's probably around 50GB total. But the file I downloaded was only around 10GB and it took my PC a full 24 day to do it. And all that for a crappy quality picture.

If people are spending tons of time and bandwidth for meh product, then those are the type of people (those that spend an hour to save a buck) that probably wouldn't have bought it anyway.
I agree fully with you here.

The studio claims for losses for piracy over the years have always been exaggerated in many ways, starting with the assumption that every copy downloaded would have been bought instead at retail.
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:26 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by morriscroy View Post
As I got older, I found I had less and less patience for searching and downloading stuff for hours and hours on end. This is especially the case for less popular tv shows, movies, music, etc ... (ie. Searching for single episodes, songs, etc ... which don't show up at all). Easier to just to buy the dvd, cd, etc ... at a nearby WM, BB, amazon, etc ... or other discount outlets. I rather spend $15 on a tv season dvd set, than spending hours and hours searching and downloading every episode of the season.
TV shows are uploaded by the season(when the season ends) and you use a torrent client to pick off what episodes you want downloaded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames
What was the video quality of those 20 million copies of Avatar pirated? Probably not very good at all and if it was, then it probably took forever to download.
Should be better than Netflix HD quality and shouldnt take more than a few hours even on slower broadband connections.
Piracy is a real threat and the studios truly are powerless to do anything about it. It isnt about better pricing, it isnt about offering better features. They cant win. And this is why theyre taking this to congress.

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Old 07-16-2012, 09:29 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
I agree fully with you here.

The studio claims for losses for piracy over the years have always been exaggerated in many ways, starting with the assumption that every copy downloaded would have been bought instead at retail.
Exaggerated sure. But theres no reason to think the losses arent similar to the amount of losses the music industry has lost to piracy. Which Im guessing is alot.
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:31 PM   #115
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TV shows are uploaded by the season(when the season ends) and you use a torrent client to pick off what episodes you want downloaded.
Should be better than Netflix HD quality and shouldnt take more than a few hours even on slower broadband connections.
Piracy is a real threat and the studios truly are powerless to do anything about it. It isnt about better pricing, it isnt about offering better features. They cant win. And this is why theyre taking this to congress.
After protest, Congress puts off movie piracy bill

Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) Caving to a massive campaign by Internet services and their millions of users, Congress indefinitely postponed legislation Friday to stop online piracy of movies and music costing U.S. companies billions of dollars every year. Critics said the bills would result in censorship and stifle Internet innovation.
http://news.yahoo.com/protest-congre...202927971.html
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:48 PM   #116
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Watched a couple episodes of youtube quality on my PC and it is really interesting. Almost on par with the WWII World at War series. Really want to see it on my big screen though, and stuff like this is actually OK for DVD, I don't think it'll look much better on Blu-ray. I'm just going to wait for a better price from a 3rd party seller who'll ship to the U.S. The prices on Amazon.com are ridiculous.

I'm a war buff also, mostly WW2 and the Civil War though. I want to learn more about WWI as it seems to be underrepresented as far as war docs go. After all, the good guys won that one too.
WW2 is my thing too. I read every book I can find that looks decent (right now I am reading a book concerning WW2 by Anthony Beevor, and I highly recommend him. His books on Stalingrad and Berlin during WW2 are well done). Unbroken is anotther tremendous read. My father loves the Civil War and I enjoy that period in our history as well.

I feel exactly the same about WW1. I never appreciated it as much as I should and will try and check out this series. After watching The War Horse recently I wanted to start reading up on WW1.
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:15 AM   #117
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TV shows are uploaded by the season(when the season ends) and you use a torrent client to pick off what episodes you want downloaded.
I'll have to check out bittorrent sometime.

I haven't done any major downloading in over 5 years. The last time I was into that sort of stuff, was when p2p programs like Kazaa, Limewire, Bearshare, etc ... were popular.
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:10 AM   #118
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WW2 is my thing too. I read every book I can find that looks decent (right now I am reading a book concerning WW2 by Anthony Beevor, and I highly recommend him. His books on Stalingrad and Berlin during WW2 are well done). Unbroken is anotther tremendous read. My father loves the Civil War and I enjoy that period in our history as well.

I feel exactly the same about WW1. I never appreciated it as much as I should and will try and check out this series. After watching The War Horse recently I wanted to start reading up on WW1.
I'll have to check out some WWII books as you mentioned above. Mostly I've just watched docs like Ken Burns The War and World at War. I've seen that one 3 times, once on Blu-ray, which I prefer even though it's cropped because 95% of the time you're not missing anything anyway (since the battle footage wasn't filmed with 4:3 in mind).

I've read some Civil War books when I was younger, but now I'm more interested in WWII. I'm really anxious for the Ken Burns Civil doc to come out on Blu-ray, the photos on his docs look awesome on 1080p and I find myself freezing the picture to take a good look on the ones that have a lot of information on them.
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Old 07-17-2012, 12:26 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
The studios do not set retail pricing at brick and mortar stores, retailers do. Some exceptions of course.

Throughout the years including well before Blu-ray the studios openly expressed concerns that $5 DVD dump bins at Walmart and deep loss leader sales and low catalog pricing would devalue content.

Its a conversation that's been going on well before Blu-ray came around.

For the most part though, the studios make their wholesale price and its the retailers that take the smaller margins from the lower pricing but they are in the best situation to judge what maximizes their profit equations in the longer term.

With Blu-ray pricing at retail, what you see is a broad mix of prices for blue colored cases at a typical retailer with only a small portion of Blu-ray titles being sold at the Blu-ray bargain area at discount pricing.

What's tended to happen now over time is that for whatever class or lifecycle of a release the Blu-ray version is trending to be about $5 over the DVD sku price.

But overall there has not been that much of a change in the past year, actually since 4Q 2010 in Blu-ray pricing even if the mix changes constantly from what's on sale from week to week.

But it hardly earth shattering to see that Walmart as the world's largest low price retailer would offer some Blu-ray titles as low as $8 to $15, Best Buy Target and Amazon have been doing it as well for years now. What you see though is in the same store Blu-ray titles priced far greater than that and even some near MSRP.

There is a legitimate strategy at retail to offer some prices at low sale priced bargain levels for some titles and hold higher prices for a lot of the other items in stock as well. Consumers tend to like pricing in the middle of selections and a mix of prices offers usually the better returns.
As usual you are downplaying newer releases being sold for $7.88. You are ignoring the fact that the only reason Walmart is selling these titles is because of a weak market for catalog on Bluray. If the market were strong you might see loss leaders from time to time. But these are everyday prices. You continue to deny any problems with the the Bluray market and are in deep denial about it.
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:06 PM   #120
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As usual you are downplaying newer releases being sold for $7.88. You are ignoring the fact that the only reason Walmart is selling these titles is because of a weak market for catalog on Bluray. If the market were strong you might see loss leaders from time to time. But these are everyday prices. You continue to deny any problems with the the Bluray market and are in deep denial about it.
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The Other Guys, Reign of fire, Tropic Thunder, the Last Starfighter. There were a few other titles.
Those are not newer release titles.

I'm amazed you find $8 and $14 pricing for Blu-rat catalog titles exceptional, especially at Walmart. You should get out more and buy more Blu-ray titles to get a better sense of the market.
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