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Old 05-30-2012, 09:59 PM   #3046  
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Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
Just found the list, bruceames had posted it here. I was leading guy for Tier 1.

I guess buying a PS3 in 1Q 2007 did not count for me being purple and dual format back then. LOL

Lee Stewart made Tier 0 and GizmoDVD made Tier 2.

I remember it being a badge of honor among all of us HD DVD fans back then.




http://www.highdefforum.com/archive/t-48500.html
Tier 2? WTF? I should have been at least 1. I was a force to be reckon with!!!
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:21 PM   #3047  
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD View Post
Tier 2? WTF? I should have been at least 1. I was a force to be reckon with!!!
I thought you belonged higher on the list of HD DVD all stars back in the day as well.
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:37 PM   #3048  
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I thought you belonged higher on the list of HD DVD all stars back in the day as well.
Maybe this was before my reign of terror?

Man, we all know he was a shill. I think you and I even discussed this in 2007 or 2008 when he was not granted the title of "Insider" and begin his little campaign of anti-AVS and how they were paid HD DVD shills etc.

That HTF thread is great. Amir even came back!

This is exactly why I like this forum. Even though we disagree, we can still (for the most part) discuss like adults. Not calling anyone red ants or surfs.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:47 AM   #3049  
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD View Post
Maybe this was before my reign of terror?

Man, we all know he was a shill. I think you and I even discussed this in 2007 or 2008 when he was not granted the title of "Insider" and begin his little campaign of anti-AVS and how they were paid HD DVD shills etc.

That HTF thread is great. Amir even came back!

This is exactly why I like this forum. Even though we disagree, we can still (for the most part) discuss like adults. Not calling anyone red ants or surfs.
Looking back at it in retrospect, Penton-Man personally caused much of the anger and the pettiness in the whole format war with his inciting "red ants" and whipping up the PS3 fanboy base against the evils of Microsoft and its evil empire.

Amazing that such a fraud could have done so much damage and cause so much bitterness. Think about it, during the format war BD.com was battle coordination central for much of the attacks here at, HDD and at AVS Forum and a lot of it was egged on by PM.

Freaking astounding.

I don't mind arguing with you or us having disagreements on this stuff, its all interesting as it unfolds and you and I have friends for a long time.

Heck of a thread going on there at hometheaterforum its like an old format warriors reunion.

Lots of interesting revelations in that thread and good news about LOA as well.
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:25 AM   #3050  
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD View Post
Maybe this was before my reign of terror?

Man, we all know he was a shill. I think you and I even discussed this in 2007 or 2008 when he was not granted the title of "Insider" and begin his little campaign of anti-AVS and how they were paid HD DVD shills etc.

That HTF thread is great. Amir even came back!

This is exactly why I like this forum. Even though we disagree, we can still (for the most part) discuss like adults. Not calling anyone red ants or surfs.
I was reading a few of his posts and it reminded me how much I enjoyed reading them back in the day. He is really a gifted writer and I hope some day he writes a book (or helps to) on the format war.

Copying a post here that I thought was very enlightening:

Quote:
Originally Posted by fanboyZ
AVS was and still is pro-HDDVD they refuse to de-activate it's forums and give it equal presence with Blu Ray, even though it died 4 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amirm
Not sure why this keeps getting said. AVS was never Pro HD DVD. I was told I could only post in one thread and one thread only during most of the format war. Folks could go and post anything they liked elsewhere and I could not respond to them. In exchange for that, the forum set up the insider thread with strict rules of courtesy. Other insiders joined soon and in that regard, I had no more privilege. They could post in other threads and I could not. The forum management, as illogical as it might have been from business point of view, repeatedly told me they did not care one bit about the traffic that the format war brought in and that it/I was borderline more trouble that it almost was worth. Other than the professional courtesy that was afforded to me/other insiders in that one special thread, I never felt for a moment that I was receiving any real or moral support from AVS.

I did enjoy a benefit that I created myself: I held myself up to a high standard regarding professional conduct. While others would get impolite and personal, I would not. If you ever run a forum, you learn to recognize who the troublemakers are and who takes the high road. To wit, I listened to forum management to a fault. If they told me to jump off a cliff to calm things down, I did so. Why? It is their forum. We are guests in their party. If they like me to shut up, I do that. Others would repeatedly would push the limits so they would get in trouble. This even included one of the insiders who wished me to get fired, and constantly called my employer names. Some went as far as sending me death threats. I reported the person to management and he got three day ban. Yup, he came back with the same crazed posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanboyZ
HDDVD and it's supporters/ advocates were either people working for or receiving money from Microsoft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
We never gave anyone a dime to buy their support. All budget and approval came from me and my team and I telling you there was no such thing. I don't know why it is hard to imagine people genuinely loving the format. smile.gif Or the people involved smile.gifsmile.gif. But those are the cold facts. And I say this, no longer working at Microsoft, typing this in Google Chrome and not IE, and having Android phone and iPad. biggrin.gif The only people active in the forums were me, Kevin and Stacey Spears and a bit of Ben Wagoner. All from my team. All could get fired on an instant if they did something unprofessional and they got caught or worse yet, especially in my case as a Corporate VP, it showed up as the headline in NY Times! Indeed, reporters read AVS forum and would contact me frequently.

It is not an accident that years later we are sitting there and there is no scandal about us smile.gif. As Penton found out, these things have a way of surfacing.

Make no mistake. As an executive once told me, "[Format making] is dirty business." You ever wonder why we have three video codecs? Did you know that every player incurs $2 in royalty for MPEG-2? Whereas the royalties for VC-1 and AVC are only 30 cents. Did you know MPEG-2 royalties have no caps so if you shipped 50 million players you owe $100M royalties whereas the VC-1/AVC cap at single digit millions? Do you know who made these other technologies so much cheaper? You are reading the posts from the guy's group smile.gif.

I hear you. You think there is maybe a reason for different video codecs. How about two lossless audio codecs? How does that seem necessary? You think that came about because of consumer need? Or Equipment maker need?

Why did VC-1 get into BD? Why did HP and Dell join BDA? How did the studios make the decision they did?

Let me tell you, what you know, is 1% of the story. smile.gif If this were made into a movie, it would have to be a series to cover it all biggrin.gif.

We competed hard. We did. It was just two companies against a lot powerful companies. But I can tell that we did that with our head up high. We loved the technology. This wasn't just business. It was our hobbies turned into that. kevin and I would travel around the county to spend time with you all. We would work hard to get pre-release movies to show the folks who came as a reward. You want to accuse us of bribing people. That is how we did smile.gif.
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Originally Posted by fanboyz
There's no shame in that one must preform their job and well, but they failed in the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
I don't think we failed at what we wanted to do: advance the state of the art in delivery of video to consumers and enthusiasts. We made Blu-ray adopt advanced codecs. We made MPEG/ITU revise MPEG-4 AVC to make it performant for HD video (it actually lost to MPEG-2 prior to that!). We made the cost of the codecs much lower. We moved BD from proprietary file system to UFS. We moved Blu-ray from proprietary copy protection to open standard of AACS. We tried, but sadly failed at the end, to get the right for every consumer to get a digital copy of their BD/HD DVD movie (the belated and stillborn "managed copy").

Ultimately the format wasn't ours to win or lose. It was Toshiba's. Unlike DVD, they decided to go it alone without a strong partner (with DVD, Warner was with them all the way and then some). We gave it a strong push and hold our head up high. Hope that is OK smile.gif.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanboyZ
We won, they lost. They deserve the shame and stigma that they have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
I have never felt shame. On AVS to this day, my signature says "Semi-retired HD DVD/Digital Media Insider." Until this post, no one had told me it was a shameful thing to be associated with.
Quote:
Thats part of the deal as an advocate you are essentially being compensated for the POTENTIAL destruction of your good name. Paramount, Universal, Toshiba, and to a lesser extant Onkyo- all have had their names either minimally corroded (Onkyo, Paramount) of obliterated into a laughing stock monumental failure (Universal, Toshiba).
I don't think anything like that has happened. General public didn't know or care about the format war. Many still don't care about HD formats. My wife exclusively buys DVDs. The Internet crowd is all about streaming content. I wrote an article about state of the industry for Widescreen Review Magazine that touches on all of this: http://www.madronadigital.com/Librar...tribution.html. There is a reason I had no trouble working with BDA studios post my departure from Microsoft smiley_wink.gifsmile.gif. Read the article and you see why. While folks were fighting over which format was right, Netflix and Redbox transformed the home video business. While we were chasing more bits, they were chasing how to provide more convenience. The latter always wins with general public. Ask any studio executive who won, and they would tell you Netflix and Redbox!
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanboyz
AVS needs to wake up and realize that HDDVD dead,
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Or we need to wake up and realize the world doesn't care about what we think here smile.gif. Again read the above article to see why.

Boy, you got me started on this thing smile.gif.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich
While I know a lot of what went on, I still would like all the top players to come together for a book someday as I'm sure what I know is just a small part of what happened smile.gif .
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Maybe we write it and keep it confidential and when we are on our last breath, we give the green light to publish it smile.gif. As much as the format war has its secrets, what is going on today is just as interesting if not more smiley_wink.gifsmile.gif. Future of home video is really in flux. It is the most uncertain it has ever been.
I agree that the future of home video today is very interesting, but probably for me the format war was a tad more interesting.
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:50 AM   #3051  
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Reading further into this fascinating thread, I found this interesting post (from Adam Gregorich, an owner of HTF)

Quote:
I don't want to say anything specific as its not my place to get into details, but I do know the WB deal came down to the wire for both sides. The fact that people (and other studios) were saying that WB was going to go Blu months and weeks earlier was just hype at the time. There were intense negotiations and lots of $$ on the table from both sides (I have no problem with this....its business). A few days prior to the announcement the HD DVD side thought they had won, but something fell through at the last minute. At approx 11:00PM PT the night before the announcement WB made the call to go BD exclusive. Someday I hope someone interviews the key players from all sides and studios and writes a book on it.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:26 PM   #3052  
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Reading further into this fascinating thread, I found this interesting post (from Adam Gregorich, an owner of HTF)
Jodi Sally from Toshiba and Kevin Collins were both flying in the air IIRC when the announcement was made.

I understood at the time that the timing of the announcement from Warner was made to actually keep them out of touch as the spokespeople for HD DVD as the news broke.

It was done for maximum effect to make HD DVD look bad and no time to react so they even had to cancel their dog and pony show pre CES major news conference.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:36 PM   #3053  
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Reading further into this fascinating thread, I found this interesting post (from Adam Gregorich, an owner of HTF)
That was true. Both Warner and Fox had contracts sent to them according to Toshiba and Microsoft folks that were agreements to go HD DVD exclusive. Warner had them for weeks before and were stalling on signing them off while they considered things.

One option at the pre CES 2008 press conference was going to be that announcement of Warner going HD DVD only.

The HD DVD press relations people from Weber Shandwick the HD DVD global PR firm even showed me a draft press release at CES they had been working on. *sigh*

Kevin Collins was just convinced that Sony paid Warner more money and took the better offer.

His comment to me eye to eye in Las Vegas was "we were this close" while holding his thumb and index finger a half inch apart.

Last edited by Kosty; 05-31-2012 at 03:24 PM..
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:32 PM   #3054  
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That was a heck of a trade show and the reaction of the HD DVD people was classy but somber.

I remember the last email I got before the show I got from Kevin Collins was so simple you could read into it the depression about the news. He was informing me not to show up at the now cancelled press event that I was invited to before CES 2008.

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Old 05-31-2012, 04:01 PM   #3055  
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Jodi Sally from Toshiba and Kevin Collins were both flying in the air IIRC when the announcement was made.

I understood at the time that the timing of the announcement from Warner was made to actually keep them out of touch as the spokespeople for HD DVD as the news broke.

It was done for maximum effect to make HD DVD look bad and no time to react so they even had to cancel their dog and pony show pre CES major news conference.
Quote:
At approx 11:00PM PT the night before the announcement WB made the call to go BD exclusive.
If Adam's account is correct that Warner finally decided to go Blu-ray exclusive the night before the announcement, I seriously doubt anybody was scheming the timing of it, on such short notice, to make Toshiba look bad. Why would Warner want to do that anyway?
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:04 PM   #3056  
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That was true. Both Warner and Fox had contracts sent to them according to Toshiba and Microsoft folks that were agreements to go HD DVD exclusive. Warner had them for weeks before and were stalling on signing them off while they considered things.

One option at the pre CES 2008 press conference was going to be that announcement of Warner going HD DVD only.

The HD DVD press relations people from Weber Shandwick the HD DVD global PR firm even showed me a draft press release at CES they had been working on. *sigh*

Kevin Collins was just convinced that Sony paid Warner more money and took the better offer.

His comment to me eye to eye in Las Vegas was "we were this close" while holding his thumb and index finger a half inch apart.
That's pretty much what I had understood what happened as well. Would love to know exactly what happened. Hopefully someone gets around to writing that book.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:08 PM   #3057  
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That was a heck of a trade show and the reaction of the HD DVD people was classy but somber.

I remember the last email I got before the show I got from Kevin Collins was so simple you could read into it the depression about the news. He was informing me not to show up at the now cancelled press event that I was invited to before CES 2008.

I remember the news just as if someone old enough would remember where they were when they heard that Kennedy was shot. It was shocking and unexpected to me. Probably the hardcore Blu-ray fans felt the same way when Paramount announced it was going HD DVD exclusive. Plenty of drama during the last 6 months of the format war, that's for sure.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:23 PM   #3058  
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Sad to see Amir being chased away by a few of the hardcore zealots that just won't let it go. I'm surprised though that he responded as much as he did as it must have been a balancing act defending himself while not coming off as rehashing the format war, which the mods there made clear they wanted left out of the thread. Amazing that even now a simple discussion on something that took place 4 or 5 years ago inspires the same feelings among a few as if they occurred yesterday.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:28 PM   #3059  
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If Adam's account is correct that Warner finally decided to go Blu-ray exclusive the night before the announcement, I seriously doubt anybody was scheming the timing of it, on such short notice, to make Toshiba look bad. Why would Warner want to do that anyway?
They wanted to hurt HD DVD as much as possible PR wise and to disrupt any chance as much as possible for the HD DVD folks to prepare a response in time for their press events.

Sure it could have been a coincidence but it was devastatingly effective in limiting how much damage control the HD DVD folks could manage. They real had no choice but to cancel the press event at short notice and look defensive and flailing.

I think that Warner probably reached the decision a few days earlier and coordinated the timing of the announcement to have maximum PR impact on HD DVD. That's what most of the HD DVD folks I saw at CES 2008 thought, including Jodi and Kevin.

Quote:
I don't want to say anything specific as its not my place to get into details, but I do know the WB deal came down to the wire for both sides. The fact that people (and other studios) were saying that WB was going to go Blu months and weeks earlier was just hype at the time. There were intense negotiations and lots of $$ on the table from both sides (I have no problem with this....its business). A few days prior to the announcement the HD DVD side thought they had won, but something fell through at the last minute. At approx 11:00PM PT the night before the announcement WB made the call to go BD exclusive. Someday I hope someone interviews the key players from all sides and studios and writes a book on it.
That was still a day or two before the HD DVD PR event and they held off announcing it until late in the next day.

I'll see Kevin and Jodi at CEDIA in Indy in September face to face I hope. Maybe even in NYC at the end of the month. Maybe they will share his recollections some more.

Last edited by Kosty; 05-31-2012 at 04:37 PM..
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:30 PM   #3060  
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Sad to see Amir being chased away by a few of the hardcore zealots that just won't let it go. I'm surprised though that he responded as much as he did as it must have been a balancing act defending himself while not coming off as rehashing the format war, which the mods there made clear they wanted left out of the thread. Amazing that even now a simple discussion on something that took place 4 or 5 years ago inspires the same feelings among a few as if they occurred yesterday.
He will probably stick around along with others like me and he has already been encouraged to do so privately and publicly by Adam and others. RAH has already requested to move past the format war talk.

I agree its amazing that some cannot let it go.
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