High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource

Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource > High Definition DVDs & Movies > High Definition Media
Rules HDTV Forum Gallery LINK TO US! RSS - High Def Forum AddThis Feed Button AddThis Social Bookmark Button Groups

High Definition Media A place to discuss BD and UHD Content from physical and digital media RSS - High Definition Media

Like Tree252Likes

Optical (Blu-ray/DVD) and Digital (EST/UV) Sales Thread

Reply
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-12-2012, 10:59 AM   #1936
High Definition is the definition of life.
 
mikemorel's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 884
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
or less.

In general terms its pennies to add a extra DVD to a set as opposed to dollars. It only costs under $0.15 cents for a 3rd party replicator to add a second dual layer DVD9 to a 10,000 unit production run and it costs the studios less than that.
Of course, that is pure fabricated BS.

Per the DVD FAQ:

Quote:
Various essential licensing fees add up to over $14 per player about $0.20 per disc. Player royalties are paid by the player/drive/computer manufacturer or the manufacturer of a component such as a decoder chip. Disc royalties are paid by the replicator.
That number has dropped some since this was written; may now be about 12-15 cents per disc for royalties ALONE!

Quote:
Why do you have to use the phrase "lies" again and again as its rude and baiting as well?
Do you have any proof at all that DVD disc replication + royalties cost less than 15 cents from 3rd party replicators and even less for studios???
__________________
Warner Bros, on Ultraviolet - "We recognize that the product is not perfect today,” Mr. Tsujihara said. “We don’t have the luxury of waiting a year until we have everything perfect.”

Last edited by mikemorel; 03-12-2012 at 11:05 AM..
mikemorel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 12:25 PM   #1937
Home Theater Enthusiast
 
Kosty's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,063
Default

You are seriously using the 1997 era DVD faq?

Here's a hint: at that time in 1997 an entire title fit on a single disc and yes the fees have dropped as a lot of fees have expired or been reduced in the past few years.

But I guess its entirely possible the numbers I received in the past during the format war from Warner Paramount and Universal and the HD DVD PRG and from Cinram and other replicators did not include the license fees but I doubt that would have been the case. Its possible I guess but unlikely.

I know that its not $0.20 cents of royalties anymore for DVD9 replication or the quotes I received in the past would not have left replicators any room to make any profit at all. I know that the DVD6 fees for example are half what they were before.

Last edited by Kosty; 03-12-2012 at 12:43 PM..
Kosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 12:50 PM   #1938
Home Theater Enthusiast
 
Kosty's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,063
Default

Quote:
Do you have any proof at all that DVD disc replication + royalties cost less than 15 cents from 3rd party replicators and even less for studios???
Why don't you ask for a quote to add a second disc to a production run from a third party replicator and find out yourself?

Anything you get as an estimate the studios pay a fraction of for their million unit production runs from established contracted replication facilities.

In any case we know that the studios pay far less than the $0.50 cents a disc including fees the third party replicators have on their websites for dual layer DVD9 production and that's a fraction of the incremental retail price of $5.00 or more a BD+DVD combo has over a plain DVD. So the combo is obviously more profitable and higher margin no matter how you figure it.

Last edited by Kosty; 03-12-2012 at 12:55 PM..
Kosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 01:20 PM   #1939
High Definition is the definition of life.
 
mikemorel's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 884
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
You are seriously using the 1997 era DVD faq?

Here's a hint: at that time in 1997 an entire title fit on a single disc and yes the fees have dropped as a lot of fees have expired or been reduced in the past few years.

But I guess its entirely possible the numbers I received in the past during the format war from Warner Paramount and Universal and the HD DVD PRG and from Cinram and other replicators did not include the license fees but I doubt that would have been the case. Its possible I guess but unlikely.

I know that its not $0.20 cents of royalties anymore for DVD9 replication or the quotes I received in the past would not have left replicators any room to make any profit at all. I know that the DVD6 fees for example are half what they were before.
You serious?

Here is a hint:

Quote:
Patents and Royalties:
The "basic" manufacturing royalties paid to the companies that hold the patents associated with the replication process are included in our DVD price list. You can not legally manufacture a DVD without paying these royalties, so we include them in our pricing structure. The basic patent royalties are .138 for a DVD-5, and .144 for a DVD-9. To avoid the possibility of legal prosecution, fines, and seizure of your products you should insure that your DVD and CDs are manufactured by a full licensed replicator. All of Business Replication and Print manufacturing facilities are fully licensed.

Additional royalties may be required depending on the features used in the software of your disc. Examples of additional royalties include: MPEG LA (if MPEG compression is used), Dolby (if Dolby sound processing is used), Thompson Multimedia (if MP3 is used), Macrovision (if Macrovision encoding processing is used), DVD Copy Control Association (if CSS encryption) is used.

These royalties are subject to change as the licensing rules and agreements are modified.

This is not intended to be a complete list of all royalties due. Each project is different so the royalties will vary with the features used on the disc.

If you project does not use any features requiring royalty fees, then no additional royalty charges will apply.

All orders are subject to our Standard Terms and Conditions.
14 cents for royalties ALONE (not including replication), which doesn't include MPEG-2, Dolby, or Macrovision.

You say studios pay A LOT LESS than 15 cents per disc for royalties + replication, based on some unknown guy who may (or may not) have told a random internet guy named Kosty 5 years ago.

Who should I believe?
__________________
Warner Bros, on Ultraviolet - "We recognize that the product is not perfect today,” Mr. Tsujihara said. “We don’t have the luxury of waiting a year until we have everything perfect.”

Last edited by mikemorel; 03-12-2012 at 01:41 PM..
mikemorel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 01:21 PM   #1940
High Definition is the definition of life.
 
mikemorel's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 884
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
Why don't you ask for a quote to add a second disc to a production run from a third party replicator and find out yourself?
Why don't you ever provide any proof to back up your ridiculous fantasies?
__________________
Warner Bros, on Ultraviolet - "We recognize that the product is not perfect today,” Mr. Tsujihara said. “We don’t have the luxury of waiting a year until we have everything perfect.”
mikemorel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 01:44 PM   #1941
Home Theater Enthusiast
 
Kosty's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,063
Default

The fees have dropped for compliant replicators which studio production runs include. I'm also not sure the double dipping of MPEG fees or Dolby etc if a DVD version is included with a Blu-ray version as well. I know with HD DVD combos there was not a double fee for the dual format disc. There is the Philips pool also still in effect IIRC but its much less. Plus I'm not sure how the Sony royalties portion is handled by Sony DADC.

Here's for example the fee reductions for DVD6CLA.


Quote:


Royalty Rates under DVD6C Licensing Program


The current royalty rates applicable to new licensees who will enter into the DVD6C Patent License Agreement are as follows:

DVD-Video Disc

US$0.075 per disc;
US$0.065 per disc on or after January 1, 2002;
US$0.05 per disc on or after January 1, 2004;
US$0.04 per disc on or after the effective date of the DVD6C License Agreement;
US$0.0375 per disc for any semi-annual reporting period beginning on or after July 1, 2011, for those licensees with no overdue or incorrect royalty reports or overdue or underpaid royalties (including back royalties) and otherwise in compliance with the DVD6C License Agreement:
(i) as of the due date for payment of royalties for the immediately preceding semi-annual reporting period, or
(ii) to qualify for the reduced rate for the second half of 2011, as of, and only if the DVD6C License Agreement has been entered into on or before, January 31, 2012,
provided that a licensee who otherwise qualifies for the US$0.0375 per disc rate shall be subject to the US$0.04 per disc rate for any period for which an audit has revealed an underpayment of royalties of greater than 3%.
http://www.dvd6cla.com/royaltyrate.html

Last edited by Kosty; 03-12-2012 at 01:48 PM..
Kosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 01:51 PM   #1942
Home Theater Enthusiast
 
Kosty's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,063
Default

Again you miss the larger point. Even with an extra $0.15 cents in fees for royalties assuming its still the same rate, a BD+DVD+UV combo that is selling for $5 to $10 more than a plain DVD version is still much more higher margin a more profitable than a DVD version that it replaces. When a consumer upgrades from DVD to Blu-ray they are buying higher priced skus that make more profit for the studios and their retail partners.
Kosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 03:06 PM   #1943
High Definition is the definition of life.
 
mikemorel's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 884
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
The fees have dropped for compliant replicators which studio production runs include. ...

Here's for example the fee reductions for DVD6CLA.

http://www.dvd6cla.com/royaltyrate.html
I know that.

Royalties:

DVD6C
DVD3C (Sony, Philips, Pioneer, LG)
MPEGLA (MPEG-2)
Dolby (AC3)
DTS
Macrovision
Thompson (aka DVD1C)
etc.

They were meant to be added up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
Again you miss the larger point. Even with an extra $0.15 cents in fees for royalties....
You stated that you knew for a fact that studios were paying "pennies", aka - way less than 15 cents, for DVD replication. I asked for proof. You provided none.

You don't know. You have no idea whatsoever.

That IS the larger point.
__________________
Warner Bros, on Ultraviolet - "We recognize that the product is not perfect today,” Mr. Tsujihara said. “We don’t have the luxury of waiting a year until we have everything perfect.”
mikemorel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 05:47 PM   #1944
Home Theater Enthusiast
 
Kosty's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,063
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel View Post
I know that.

Royalties:

DVD6C
DVD3C (Sony, Philips, Pioneer, LG)
MPEGLA (MPEG-2)
Dolby (AC3)
DTS
Macrovision
Thompson (aka DVD1C)
etc.

They were meant to be added up.

You stated that you knew for a fact that studios were paying "pennies", aka - way less than 15 cents, for DVD replication. I asked for proof. You provided none.

You don't know. You have no idea whatsoever.

That IS the larger point.
A lot of those may not be applicable to an extra version in the set, for example the MPEG DTS or Dolby if its already being used on the Blu-ray version.

The phrase " pennies" as I said above in general terms would makes sense in relative sense as a phrase in comparison to the "dollars" more that a BD+DVD+UV combo sells for at typical retail pricing. I started off the conversation here by saying that order of magnitude "is $0.50 or less". The point being its a heck a lot less than the higher retail price point a BD+DVD combo commands so its a more profitable higher margin sku.

But where did I say it cost way less than 15 cents anyway? I think I only stated that it can possibly be only an extra 15 cents to add an extra DVD 9 for a commercial DVD run of 10,000 units not an initial DVD Disc for the initial production run? Perhaps that did not include some royalties which is a possibility.

But in any case the greater point was that we obviously know that it costs the studio far less than the $0.48 cents that Pacific Disc is quoting for 50,000 units including royalties (see the chart below) when the studios are doing 10 to 100 times the volumes for their BD+DVD combo runs producing millions of units, not thousands.

Plus UltraViolet Discs or Digital Copies would not have all those royalty fees in any case as well. If its dropping for that 3rd party replicator $0.02 cents for every 20,000 units at the 50,000 unit break it would be a lot less in volumes of millions of units in a studio title replication run. Common sense applies.

The central issue remains that a BD+DVD combo selling for $5-$10 over a DVD version is a heck of a lot higher margin even when including an extra DVD even if it costs the full price of 3rd party replication which we absolutely know the studios are not paying because of their existing replicator relationships and the volumes of discs that they use and buy for a mainstream studio release which is in the millions not just tens of thousands.


Last edited by Kosty; 03-12-2012 at 10:34 PM..
Kosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2012, 11:21 PM   #1945
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,730
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Yes, but not from $5 to $1. The transition has been gradual over many years.
Doubt it. Youre understating NF and Redboxs price advantage here. IIRC for a while studios didnt even care about delaying movie releases at brick and morter retailers.

Quote:
I've been talking about OD this whole time, so I don't see why to include VOD in the discussion. VOD is VOD, is growing so slowly that it can virtually be discarded as a reason why people are buy less on disc. Besides, those rentals are around $5 anyway and should pose no threat and furthermore are usually windowed after the OD release.
I was talking about rentals cannibalizing OD sales. I dont know why youd keep OD in a bubble and not include digital rentals. And that VOD number includes Netflix, but like I said I dont know how NPD counts it.

Quote:
No, you are who is blaming OD's downfall on the economy. I attribute some blame, but only around 10% or so. That is, 90% of OD's decline is due to reasons other than the economy.
My reasoning was simple. The noticable jump in redbox popularity timed around the same time as the economy falling. Thats the effect I feel the economy has had on sales.

Quote:
OK, so what do YOU think people are doing less of these days? Facebook and internet browsing time is way up from 6 years ago. People game more as well. Time spent on those activities have to come at the expense of something else.
I feel people are watching MORE movies due to piracy. And more tv shows due to PVR and netflix.

Last edited by DonnyDC; 03-12-2012 at 11:29 PM..
DonnyDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2012, 12:02 AM   #1946
Home Theater Enthusiast
 
Kosty's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,063
Default

I think the paradigm that OD as a whole is important is perfectly reasonable as packaged media sell through is the largest high margin revenue stream that the studios and retailers have had for the past decade or more since DVD hit its stride.

But its not the whole story and only looking at Blu-ray through that prism tends to downplay or even ignore that Blu-ray itself is moving in the opposite direction than DVD and is the most successful of all of the other modern successors to DVD in both magnitude and growth rate. Blu-ray's growth is far greater in growth rate and current magnitude for example than EST or UltraViolet growth.

Blu-ray also has easier retailer support as a physical product to brick and mortar retailers. Its really only when one assumes that Blu-ray must by itself cover all of DVDs attrition where it falls short.

If you look at Blu-ray by itself as a new product category its a new product that almost any consumer products manufacturer or retailer would love to have. Its high margin software that already doing billions of annual revenues and millions and millions of unit sales each week, its in every major mass market and specialty retailer chain across the country and world wide and its still growing.

Its only in direct comparison to DVD as a consumer product that it suffers but virtually every consumer product in the market would look pretty bad in a direct comparison with DVD as one of the most successful retail products of all time.

Looking at Blu-ray's growth without looking and taking into consideration the economic and technological factors and cheap rental alternatives in the market is pretty silly.

But combining DVD and Blu-ray together as one part of the puzzle makes perfect sense to one degree or another. But its not the complete story as DVD is a mature declining product past its peak while Blu-ray is a less mature growing product that has yet to reach its market peak and potential. Blu-ray's peak is still in the future and Blu-ray will be around for quite a while yet for us to enjoy.
Kosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2012, 02:49 AM   #1947
High Definition is the definition of life.
 
mikemorel's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 884
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
But where did I say it cost way less than 15 cents anyway?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
In general terms its pennies to add a extra DVD to a set as opposed to dollars. It only costs under $0.15 cents for a 3rd party replicator to add a second dual layer DVD9 to a 10,000 unit production run and it costs the studios less than that.
__________________
Warner Bros, on Ultraviolet - "We recognize that the product is not perfect today,” Mr. Tsujihara said. “We don’t have the luxury of waiting a year until we have everything perfect.”
mikemorel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2012, 09:33 AM   #1948
High Definition is the definition of life.
 
Malanthius's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 843
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel View Post




Been a fun watch. Don't know how someone can still be in denial that they said something. Someone needs to accept that they have been proven wrong.
Malanthius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2012, 09:59 AM   #1949
Home Theater Enthusiast
 
Kosty's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,063
Default

Talking about the growing importance of the international revenues for the studios.

Plus mentions of packaged media rentals growing in North America and how low EST levels are overall compared to theatrical and Blu-ray and DVD.



Quote:
Emerging Markets Driving Movie Consumption


13 Mar, 2012
By: Erik Gruenwedel

Rampant piracy and lower adoption continue to hinder home entertainment growth globally

Walt Disney Studios’ maligned sci-fi adventure movie John Carter may have generated just 12% ($30 million) of its $250 million mega-budget on opening weekend in the United States, but the film recorded an impressive 28% ($70 million) at foreign box offices – including the highest opening ever for a movie in Russia.

The tally represents a growing trend in Hollywood that revenue growth across all distribution channels, excluding home entertainment, is being driven by emerging markets instead of North America and Western Europe. Indeed, total movie consumption is projected to increase 2.6% this year to $64.2 billion from $62.6 billion in 2011, according to new data from IHS Screen Digest.

Movie spending in Central and Eastern Europe will rise at a compound annual growth rate of 8.9% from 2010 to 2015, while Asia-Pacific will expand by 6.5% and Latin America by 4.2%. By comparison, movie spending in North America and Western Europe will grow 0.2% and 1.1%, respectively, during the same period.

The theatrical sector — which accounted for $31 billion, or 50% of movie spending in 2011 — will generate $41 billion annually by 2015, equivalent to 59% of total spending. Almost $6 billion of that increase will have come from the developing regions of Asia-Pacific, Central and Eastern Europe and Latin America, with a further $4 billion generated in North America and Western Europe. Despite the declines in some other sectors, this growth will help swell transactional movie spending to almost $70 billion in 2015.

“The expansion in global movie spending is being driven almost entirely by consumers in the growing economies of Asia-Pacific, Latin America, and Central and Eastern Europe,” said Richard Cooper, senior analyst for video at IHS. “This is occurring despite the fact that the three regions combined accounted for only about one-third of total global movie spending in 2011. The remaining two-thirds of the spending was generated by consumers in the mature markets of North America and Western Europe—where growth has stalled.”

Meanwhile, home entertainment spending continues to decline globally as stagnant growth in North America and Western Europe is undermined by lower adoption and rampant piracy in developing markets. Sales of DVD and Blu-ray Disc movies accounted for less than 30% of all movie spending in these regions in 2011, down from almost 40% at the market’s peak in 2004, according to IHS.

Notably, movie rental consumption in North America increased in 2011 — the first rise in eight years – due largely to the popularity of low cost kiosk vendors Redbox and Blockbuster Express.

Electronic sellthrough and transactional video-on-demand rentals accounted for just 2% of 2011 movie consumption in North America, less so in Western Europe. Rampant piracy and limited content selections continue to hinder EST and transactional VOD in emerging markets, including Japan despite widespread adoption of Apple products and Xbox.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/ind...sumption-26663
Kosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2012, 11:20 AM   #1950
High Definition is the definition of life.
 

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,749
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post
Blu-ray itself (snip) and is the most successful of all of the other modern successors to DVD in both magnitude and growth rate.
That is not quite correct.

As far as models, Netflix generates more revenue than Blu-ray. Granted, it is an odd comparison as Netflix includes revenue from OD.

Although this year we will very likely see Netflix domestic streaming alone outpace Blu-ray sell through revenue, and possibly outpace all Blu-ray spending.


I know your goal is to spin Blu-ray in the best light possible (spin, spin, spin), but you cannot ignore other Home Video revenue streams that are outpacing Blu-ray in growth and revenue if you are going to make a statement like above. Or at least you cannot truthfully make such statements.
PSound is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Go Back   High Def Forum - Your High Definition Community & High Definition Resource > High Definition DVDs & Movies > High Definition Media
AddThis Social Bookmark Button
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:12 PM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright ©2004 - 2008, High Def Forum