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Trying to make an informed decision...

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Old 02-24-2008, 10:58 PM   #1  
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Default Trying to make an informed decision...

I know everything ultimately comes down to personal preference, but setting that aside for a minute, I was hoping to get some advice and opinions from all you folks that have a lot more experience in this than I do. I am currently helping my father pick out his first HDTV and I would like to give his old, conservative butt a well informed opinion. So here is my (his) situation:

Budget: $2500
Viewing Distances: Main seat, 13 ft.; Secondary viewing seat, 8-12ft.; Kitchen, 22ft.
Total Viewing Angle: 100 degrees

When I first started looking for tvs we had assumed a max viewing distance of 10ft and a budget of ~$2000. With those two things in mind I was looking in the 50" plasma range (We were originally ruling out LCDs because there will be no glare problem). I was nudging him toward 1080p, but as you can see one of the two tvs I settled on is 720p. The two tvs I had narrowed it down to were:

Panasonic TH-50PZ77U
$1850 from Amazon

Pioneer Kuro PDP-5080HD
~$2,000 from various online vendors (and possibly BB http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=66148)

Like I said, I chose those two tvs (besides the obvious, that they are both amazing sets) because of their size and general price range.
Today, I learned that the viewing distance is actually around 13'. Understanding that the farther from the tv he sits, he will want to go bigger, he raised his budget to ~$2500. Here are my questions:

1) According to the Crutchfield (http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/IS...placement.html) chart he should purchase a tv at least 56". I believe I have also read that tv size relative to viewing distance is not as important as people make it out to be. Since the distance is 13', would it be advisable to move up to the 55"+ range?

2) Assuming we go with either the Panny or Pio, are there any nuances of these two tvs that might not be learned from reviews (e.g., cnet)? I have a hard time imagining that there is very much wrong with either of these sets.

3) If we did move up in screen size, do LCDs come back into the mix of choices? If I'm correct, there are more available sizes of LCDs than of plasmas...?

4) My father plans on keeping the tv for at least 10 years. Is there any reason to assume that the Kuro 5080 could not handle future improvements in technology since it seems that 1080p is becoming the industry standard?

Thank you for any info, help or criticism.

Chris
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:21 AM   #2  
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may i suggest you factor in the operating costs too...

they are very power hungry...

plasma eats the most... high operating power cost per month.

LCD next... a bunch less than plasmas.

Rear projections... the cheapest to operate given a set screen size.

just a thought....
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:38 AM   #3  
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Originally Posted by scootski View Post
may i suggest you factor in the operating costs too...

they are very power hungry...

plasma eats the most... high operating power cost per month.

LCD next... a bunch less than plasmas.

Rear projections... the cheapest to operate given a set screen size.

just a thought....
Lets stop this arguement here and now Scottski... You attempted to make this point in another thread and it was shot down there as well....I suggest you do some research before misleading folks...here compared by an unbiased site is power consumption for a 50 inch plasma and a 52 inch LCD not much difference as you can see... so stop it with the Plasmas are power hogs...
Panasonic TH-50PX75U
50" plasma HDTV

Power Consumption
Power On (Manufacturer) 499 maximum watts
Standby (Manufacturer) 0.20 watts
Power On (Crutchfield-tested) 365.50 watts
Standby (Crutchfield-tested) 0.07 watts
Estimated Cost per Month (Crutchfield-tested) $6.67

Sony KDL-52XBR5
52" BRAVIA® XBR® 1080p LCD HDTV with 120Hz refresh rate

Power Consumption
Power On (Manufacturer) 320 in use watts
Standby (Manufacturer) 0.40 watts
Power On (Crutchfield-tested) 304.98 watts
Standby (Crutchfield-tested) 0.06 watts
Estimated Cost per Month (Crutchfield-tested) $5.57

Rear projection may seem inexpensive until you begin to figure in the cost of replacement bulbs and recalibration after moving the set...
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:18 AM   #4  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiz View Post
I know everything ultimately comes down to personal preference, but setting that aside for a minute, I was hoping to get some advice and opinions from all you folks that have a lot more experience in this than I do. I am currently helping my father pick out his first HDTV and I would like to give his old, conservative butt a well informed opinion. So here is my (his) situation:

Budget: $2500
Viewing Distances: Main seat, 13 ft.; Secondary viewing seat, 8-12ft.; Kitchen, 22ft.
Total Viewing Angle: 100 degrees

When I first started looking for tvs we had assumed a max viewing distance of 10ft and a budget of ~$2000. With those two things in mind I was looking in the 50" plasma range (We were originally ruling out LCDs because there will be no glare problem). I was nudging him toward 1080p, but as you can see one of the two tvs I settled on is 720p. The two tvs I had narrowed it down to were:

Panasonic TH-50PZ77U
$1850 from Amazon

Pioneer Kuro PDP-5080HD
~$2,000 from various online vendors (and possibly BB http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=66148)

Like I said, I chose those two tvs (besides the obvious, that they are both amazing sets) because of their size and general price range.
Today, I learned that the viewing distance is actually around 13'. Understanding that the farther from the tv he sits, he will want to go bigger, he raised his budget to ~$2500. Here are my questions:

1) According to the Crutchfield (http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/IS...placement.html) chart he should purchase a tv at least 56". I believe I have also read that tv size relative to viewing distance is not as important as people make it out to be. Since the distance is 13', would it be advisable to move up to the 55"+ range?

2) Assuming we go with either the Panny or Pio, are there any nuances of these two tvs that might not be learned from reviews (e.g., cnet)? I have a hard time imagining that there is very much wrong with either of these sets.

3) If we did move up in screen size, do LCDs come back into the mix of choices? If I'm correct, there are more available sizes of LCDs than of plasmas...?

4) My father plans on keeping the tv for at least 10 years. Is there any reason to assume that the Kuro 5080 could not handle future improvements in technology since it seems that 1080p is becoming the industry standard?

Thank you for any info, help or criticism.

Chris
Chris, viewing distance is very subjective. The question is, what do you want out of your tv? Are you looking for something that will totally engross you in the viewing experience and nearly fill your peripheral vision? Closer viewing, larger set. Or are you looking for something nice that you can watch tv on and the"experience" is less important? If so, get the largest you can afford and don't worry about viewing distance.

If you do go larger, nothing really changes as far as plasma vs lcd. Same issues apply, only it's a bigger screen.

As for the Pioneer, I can say this from personal experience. I have the last model 5070, and have no problems with "future" compatability. Here's why. The Pio is one of few sets even now that can truly reproduce the 1080p/24Hz signal from a Blu-ray or HD-DVD (if you have one). It will rescale to fit the 1366X768 screen, but it does a very good job. And at that distance, you will not notice it isn't a 1080p set. Second, the set does a good job of de-interlacing 1080i, so no issues there. Third, there isn't any 1080p/60Hz material available to watch. With the exception of the PS3 and only in some games. Broadcast TV (cable and Sat) are 1080i, and will not likely go to 1080p/60Hz because they are already having bandwidth issues and going from 1080i/60Hz to 1080p/60Hz doubles the bandwidth requirement. Will they ever go to 1080p/60Hz? Who knows, but I've read a lot of articles saying they won't simply because of the doubled bandwidth and that most good tv's de-interlace fine. 1080p is becoming standard for tv's but not for the content providers.

If you want the 1080p. go for it, but I honestly doubt you would even miss or notice it on the Pio. IMHO. Enjoy what ever you decide.
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Old 02-25-2008, 12:02 PM   #5  
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Yeah this scootski cat is borderline spamming every thread with the same three posts each time.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:03 PM   #6  
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Power consumption..... read it.
http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/S-.../TV-power.html



These ego dudes here at the forum wanna be important...
so take it for what it is worth here...

Crutchfield DID tons of testing.
Be informed.

i rest my case.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:18 PM   #7  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scootski View Post
Power consumption..... read it.
http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/S-.../TV-power.html



These ego dudes here at the forum wanna be important...
so take it for what it is worth here...

Crutchfield DID tons of testing.
Be informed.

i rest my case.
You rest a poor case.

#1) the link you provide does not compare similar sets. It is idiotic to expect a 50" plasma to be the same power consumption as a 42" lcd. Of course the 42" tv is going to draw less. Post something that compares a 50" plasma to a 50" lcd.

#2) the power consumption difference is not even that bad between a 50" plasma and a 42" lcd. Essentially they are saying it the article YOU posted, that a 50" plasma will cost exactly $19.08 per year more to operate than the 42" lcd. HOLY FREAKING CRAP, BREAK THE BANK AND GO POOR!!! You spend $2000 on a tv and $20 a year kills you? BULL.

The difference, for the real world is negligable.

What is more telling is that the LCD used 35% more power than the manufacturer listed while the plasma used 24% less power.

You are barking up the wrong tree with inaccurate claims that you cannot justify. Rest your case all you want. If so, you have lost your case.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:42 PM   #8  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scootski View Post
Power consumption.....

These ego dudes here at the forum wanna be important...
Maybe speak for youself there scootski . . .

i rest my case.
Does that mean that we've heard the last of you on this silly nonsense?

Actually, the link to Crutchfield was fine, and certainly confirms what pappy posted earlier . . . which is . . . there really ain't much difference.

Maybe the issue at hand is command of the English language where you seem to think that plasma sets "are very power hungry... (while LCD sets cost) ... a bunch less than plasmas. (to operate)"

Can we define "power hungry"?
Gosh, how much is "a bunch less"?

Really, is $1.10 per month (from pappy's post), or even $1.56 per month (the Crutchfield average for all 50/52" sets), or even $3.51 per month (the worst plasma vs the best LCD) really "a bunch"?

And it should be noted that the difference between the best plasma and the best LCD is a mere $0.47 per month . . . that's a pretty small bunch in my book.

Hell all of the above can be offset by swapping out a few lightbulbs.

I don't think the sky is gonna fall anytime soon.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:53 PM   #9  
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Does that mean that we've heard the last of you on this silly nonsense?

Actually, the link to Crutchfield was fine, and certainly confirms what pappy posted earlier . . . which is . . . there really ain't much difference.

Maybe the issue at hand is command of the English language where you seem to think that plasma sets "are very power hungry... (while LCD sets cost) ... a bunch less than plasmas. (to operate)"

Can we define "power hungry"?
Gosh, how much is "a bunch less"?

Really, is $1.10 per month (from pappy's post), or even $1.56 per month (the Crutchfield average for all 50/52" sets), or even $3.51 per month (the worst plasma vs the best LCD) really "a bunch"?

And it should be noted that the difference between the best plasma and the best LCD is a mere $0.47 per month . . . that's a pretty small bunch in my book.

Hell all of the above can be offset by swapping out a few lightbulbs.

I don't think the sky is gonna fall anytime soon.
I'm very suspect even of the crutchfield tests and numbers. Look at the ratings they claim for the Sony KDL-46XBR4 and the KDL-46XBR5.

The XBR4 they have listed at $2.91 per month to operate.

The XBR5 they have listed at $5.41 per month.

BULL. They are exactly the same set. How exactly does a glossy black bezel nearly double the power consumption? Something is very wonky about that entire chart.
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:11 PM   #10  
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I'm very suspect even of the crutchfield tests and numbers. Look at the ratings they claim for the Sony KDL-46XBR4 and the KDL-46XBR5.

The XBR4 they have listed at $2.91 per month to operate.

The XBR5 they have listed at $5.41 per month.

BULL. They are exactly the same set. How exactly does a glossy black bezel nearly double the power consumption? Something is very wonky about that entire chart.
What's even funnier is that Sony has power spec on the XBR4 of 280W, and on the XBR5 of 235W; so everything is upside down.

Good Lord man!! Who can we trust????
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:52 PM   #11  
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This makes alot of sense and shows that the plasmas power consumption is dynamic..... bright scenes consume more power, dark scenes much less...
I am not important....
I am not important....
I am not important....

March 21st, 2007 23:10 3Power consumption LCD vs Plasma:

The article is not correct about power consumption differences between plasma and LCD. The article is probably based on the manufacturers quoted numbers (which deserves a foot note) the consumption of an LCD display is constant and will not change in relation of the displayed image (the manuf.quoted numbers are in this case the min.,max and average consumption) A plasma screen will consume less power when the displayed image is dark and more when light, The quoted figure is the maximum power consumption. In daily usage the difference between lcd and plasma is very little.

Below the results of a test done in Germany:

Test done by AVt.o.p. messtechnic in Germany, they tested a panasonic 42px60 plasma, LG 42LC2R LCD, Philips 42PF7621D LCD, Sony 40s200 LCD and a Samsung LE40R71B LCD. They measured the total energy consumed watching movies from DVD

Result watching 6 days, 7 nights (German version) (This is a movie that is quiet bright)

1. LG 42″ LCD 200.10 Wh
2. Sony 40″ LCD 208.60 Wh
3. Philips 42″ LCD 218.90 Wh
4. Panasonic 42″ Plasma 230.40 Wh
5. Samsung 40″ LCD 239.20 Wh

Result watching X-Men (A rather dark movie)

1. Panasonic 42″ Plasma 200.80 Wh
2. LG 42″ LCD 205.70 Wh
3. Sony 40″ LCD 213.80 Wh
4. Philips 42″ LCD 224.60 Wh
5. Samsung 40″ LCD 246.70 Wh

The Sony and Samsung were 2″ smaller then the rest of the screens but they could not take advantage of this fact. (The Samsung actually preformed the worse in both movies)
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:54 PM   #12  
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From Cnet which shows LCD consistantly lower in power consumption (as we all agree they are) the results however do not take into account Plasmas true ability to reduce power consumption according to the scene being displayed.......as displays were measured on for only one hour on one "normal"TV show........
I personally would like to see test numbers LCDvsPlasma on say a movie like "Pans Labyrinth"...

The chart: HDTV power consumption compared
(Click on a column head to sort, and check out the chart key for explanations.)

Model HDTV type Screen size Watts: Standby Watts: Power on Per sq. in. Score (overall) Score (per size) Annual cost ↓
Envision A27W221 LCD 27 2.37 105.97 0.34 Good Poor $33.62
Samsung LN-R3228W LCD 32 1.9 116.81 0.27 Good Good $36.63
Sony KDL-32S2000 LCD 32 1.03 127.5 0.29 Good Average $39.34
Soyo DYLT032D LCD 32 1.44 129.53 0.30 Good Average $40.21
JVC LT-32X787 LCD 32 1.43 140.04 0.32 Good Poor $43.40
Sharp LC-32D43U LCD 32 1.07 144.11 0.33 Good Poor $44.41
Viewsonic N3235w LCD 32 0.98 146.85 0.34 Good Poor $45.19
Samsung HL-S5687W RPTV 56 0.81 149.85 0.11 Good Good $46.00
Samsung HL-T5687S RPTV 56 0.73 154.78 0.12 Good Good $47.45
Vizio L32 LCD 32 2.2 152.28 0.35 Good Poor $47.58
Samsung LN-S3251D LCD 32 1 155.6 0.36 Good Poor $47.86
Vizio L37HDTV LCD 37 1.62 156.28 0.27 Good Good $48.44
Sharp LC-37D40U LCD 37 1.19 177.25 0.30 Good Average $54.55
Dell W3706MC LCD 37 1.71 180.13 0.31 Good Average $55.74
Philips 37PF9631D LCD 37 1.11 183.32 0.31 Good Average $56.34
Sony KDS-60A2000 RPTV 60 0.31 190.45 0.12 Good Good $58.02
Samsung HL-S5679W RPTV 56 20.8 149.85 0.11 Good Good $58.14
Vizio P42HDTV Plasma 42 2.52 188.26 0.25 Good Good $58.70
JVC HD-56G887 RPTV 56 1.13 193.32 0.14 Good Good $59.39
JVC LT-40FN97 LCD 40 0.47 195 0.29 Good Average $59.50
Panasonic PT-61DLX76 RPTV 61 0.84 195.3 0.12 Good Good $59.82
Samsung LN-T4681F LCD 46 1.18 194.65 0.22 Good Good $59.83
Sony KDL-46S3000 LCD 46 0.51 202.58 0.22 Good Good $61.83
Vizio L42 HDTV LCD 42 1.17 202.67 0.27 Good Good $62.26
Samsung LN-S4051D LCD 40 1.13 203.05 0.30 Good Average $62.35
JVC HD-56FN97 RPTV 56 0.71 205.98 0.15 Good Good $62.98
Westinghouse LVM-47w1 LCD 47 1.11 207.74 0.22 Good Good $63.76
Vizio GV42L LCD 42 0.98 208.41 0.28 Average Average $63.89
Westinghouse LTV-32w3 LCD 32 33.76 146.06 0.33 Good Poor $64.86
Vizio GV42LF LCD 42 0.74 215.99 0.29 Average Average $66.04
Winbook 46D1 LCD 46 1.24 220.94 0.24 Average Good $67.85
Panasonic TH-42PHD8UK Plasma 42 1.5 234.33 0.31 Average Average $72.07
Philips 42PF9831D LCD 42 0.65 236.38 0.31 Average Average $72.18
Samsung LN-S4096D LCD 40 16.33 209.14 0.31 Average Average $73.43
Samsung LN-T4661F LCD 46 0.78 245.63 0.27 Average Good $75.07
Panasonic TH-42PX60U Plasma 42 1.15 245.04 0.33 Average Poor $75.11
LG 47LB5D LCD 47 0.9 245.85 0.26 Average Good $75.21
JVC LT-47X788 LCD 47 0.66 246.61 0.26 Average Good $75.29
Samsung LN-T4665F LCD 46 1.21 246.89 0.27 Average Average $75.71
Westinghouse LTV-40W1HDC LCD 40 4.3 243.76 0.36 Average Poor $76.64
Sony KDL-46XBR4 LCD 46 0.38 256.19 0.28 Average Average $78.03
Sharp LC-46D62U LCD 46 0.85 255.72 0.28 Average Average $78.17
Mitsubishi WD-65734 RPTV 65 12.23 240.26 0.13 Average Good $80.39
Panasonic PT-61LCZ70 RPTV 61 0.66 264.6 0.17 Average Good $80.75
HP MD6580n RPTV 65 2.75 268.29 0.15 Average Good $83.14
HP LC4776N LCD 47 0.93 273.65 0.29 Average Average $83.67
Westinghouse TX-47F430S LCD 47 0.72 278.86 0.30 Average Average $85.12
Sharp LC-52D64U LCD 52 0.32 280.22 0.24 Average Good $85.29
Samsung HP-S4253 Plasma 42 1.76 281.12 0.37 Poor Poor $86.44
AOC A42HD84 Plasma 42 1.3 282.47 0.37 Poor Poor $86.57
Samsung HP-R4252 Plasma 42 12.81 263.2 0.35 Average Poor $87.71
Samsung LN-T4671F LCD 46 1.38 296 0.33 Poor Poor $90.73
Sharp LC-37D90U LCD 37 40.04 218.74 0.37 Average Poor $90.75
JVC LT-47X898 LCD 47 0.76 300.78 0.32 Poor Poor $91.80
Sony KDL-52XBR2 LCD 52 0.89 307.03 0.27 Poor Good $93.78
Dell W4201C Plasma 42 1.52 306.93 0.41 Poor Poor $94.13
Philips 42PF9631D Plasma 42 1.01 311.3 0.41 Poor Poor $95.15
Panasonic TH-50PH9UK Plasma 50 0.8 312.84 0.29 Poor Average $95.49
Vizio VP50HDTV Plasma 50 1.33 317.23 0.30 Poor Average $97.14
LG 50PC5D Plasma 50 0.78 320.03 0.30 Poor Average $97.66
Mitsubishi WD-65831 RPTV 65 32.3 257.28 0.14 Average Good $97.75
Toshiba 52LX177 LCD 52 0.85 322.1 0.28 Poor Average $98.33
Samsung HP-T5064 Plasma 50 1.28 321.62 0.30 Poor Average $98.45
LG 50PC3D Plasma 50 0.9 337.84 0.32 Poor Poor $103.14
Mitsubishi LT-46144 LCD 46 15.76 309.58 0.34 Poor Poor $103.59
Vizio GV52LF LCD 52 0.63 344.52 0.30 Poor Average $105.01
Pioneer PDP 5060HD Plasma 50 25.12 301.84 0.28 Poor Average $106.92
Pioneer PRO-FHD1 Plasma 50 1.02 353.87 0.33 Poor Poor $108.08
Mitsubishi WD-62628 RPTV 62 50.88 259.73 0.16 Average Good $109.78
Pioneer PDP-5080HD Plasma 50 22.95 330.6 0.31 Poor Average $114.34
Panasonic TH-50PH10UK Plasma 50 0.94 379.32 0.36 Poor Poor $115.76
Maxent MX-50X3 Plasma 50 5.26 381.47 0.36 Poor Poor $119.04
Dell W5001C Plasma 50 1.5 393.5 0.37 Poor Poor $120.41
Hitachi 55HDT52 Plasma 55 1.55 410.48 0.32 Poor Poor $125.60
Samsung FP-T5084 Plasma 50 0.96 412.85 0.39 Poor Poor $125.96
Panasonic TH-42PX700U Plasma 42 0.58 464.07 0.62 Poor Poor $141.28
Panasonic TH-58PX600U Plasma 58 14.67 442.35 0.31 Poor Average $143.24
Vizio VM60PHDTV Plasma 60 2.3 523.13 0.34 Poor Poor $160.26
Panasonic TH-58PZ700U Plasma 58 0.3 609.53 0.42 Poor Poor $185.28
Sharp LC-65D90U LCD 65 76.11 583.82 0.32 Poor Poor $223.52


Chart Key
Model: The HDTV model name and manufacturer with link to review. Default sort is TV technology type arranged in ascending order of review date.

HDTV type: Flat-panel LCD, plasma, or rear-projection (RPTV). CRT models were excluded from this comparison because we haven't tested any recently.

Screen size: In inches diagonal. All TVs on this list are wide-screen 16:9 models.

Watts: Standby: Measured using the default, out of the box settings when the TV is in standby mode; e.g. with power turned off but the TV plugged in.

Watts: Power on: Measured using the default settings when the TV's picture is on.

Per square inch: The "Watts: Power on" result divided by the screen size of the TV in square inches.

Score (overall): A rating of Good, Average or Poor is assigned to each TV according to the "Watts: Power on" measurement. The top third of the TVs on this chart, currently models that consume below 207.787 watts, score "Good." The bottom third, currently models that consume above 280.346 watts, score "Poor." TVs that fall into the middle of the range score "Average." Note that the difference between any of these scores can be as little as a fraction of a watt.

Score (per size): A rating of Good, Average or Poor is assigned to each TV according to the "per square inch" measurement. The top third of the TVs on this chart, currently models that consume less than 0.2733 watt per square inch, score "Good." The bottom third, currently models that consume more than 0.3164 watt, score "Poor." TVs that fall into the middle of the range score "Average."

Annual cost: The amount of money the TV would cost to run over 365 days, assuming it's turned on for 8 hours a day and off for 16. We currently use the average price of energy in the U.S. during 2006, which is 10.4 cents per kilowatt hour according to the Energy Information Administration.

Notes: This chart contains 80 TVs tested by CNET for power consumption between roughly January 2006 and November 2007. For additional details on our testing methodology, check out How we test TV power consumption. Further power consumption data, namely wattage consumed in picture modes other than default, is available in the Juice Box at the bottom of every CNET HDTV review published since June 22, 2007.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6475_7-....html?tag=lnav
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:28 PM   #13  
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:58 PM   #14  
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LCD = Backlight on 100% of the time. Plasma = lights off for black.

Since this is something that is so dynamic in each scene of any viewing, and the fact that there is even a debate with such testing as listed above, it is without doubt that the difference is so negligible that this should not even weigh into your purchase. I researched for 4 weeks reading every post on every forum for hours every day before going with the panasonic plasma. I wanted to buy an LCD originally, because of all the burn in- electric costs, etc rumors that I had heard prior to researching my purchase...but I have watched movies, played 360 and ps3, about 50/50 within less than 200 hours and have no burn in, and my electric bill was a couple dollars more than last month.... But the PQ is 2nd to none.... (well, except maybe the pioneer elite's
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Old 02-26-2008, 12:17 PM   #15  
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I would wait for these Beauties to come out in March:
http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=66308
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to Trying to make an informed decision...
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