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Anyone altering their driving habits due to outrageous gas prices?

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Old 05-24-2007, 05:06 PM   #151  
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The initial numbers are certainly not good, but extrapolate that over the life of the devices. Sure it costs more at the beginning, but technology advances. In a few years, we will get a hybrid or plug in, regardless of the cost and be happy, smug little tree huggers, and we will stop feeding big oil. But, that's just us.... Just think of the billions poured into this economy instead of the Middle east and the robber...er...oil companies pockets.
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Old 05-24-2007, 05:33 PM   #152  
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I was talking about net energy savings. As I had said in an earlier post, about 10 years ago there was a study that concluded that solar panels for electricity would never be able to replace the energy required to produce, transport and install them. This included the battery, inverter and electronic devices all inclusive. I would like each alternate energy source to supply these net energy gains. Because to me unless that goes positive it is not green, reguardless of the econimics.
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Old 05-24-2007, 07:04 PM   #153  
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I was talking about net energy savings. As I had said in an earlier post, about 10 years ago there was a study that concluded that solar panels for electricity would never be able to replace the energy required to produce, transport and install them. This included the battery, inverter and electronic devices all inclusive. I would like each alternate energy source to supply these net energy gains. Because to me unless that goes positive it is not green, reguardless of the econimics.
You said it loud and clear. Many of these advocates for green energy sources never mention of incidental and other costs associated with obtaining these green energy sources. I too would love to see net numbers to see what the costs are, and what the benefits to society are. Also whether any of this will take off is going to boil down to simplified laws of economics. Unless there is money to be made, firms arn't going to enter into these markets even if there is lots of research being done.
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Old 05-24-2007, 07:42 PM   #154  
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You said it loud and clear. Many of these advocates for green energy sources never mention of incidental and other costs associated with obtaining these green energy sources. I too would love to see net numbers to see what the costs are, and what the benefits to society are. Also whether any of this will take off is going to boil down to simplified laws of economics. Unless there is money to be made, firms arn't going to enter into these markets even if there is lots of research being done.
You're correct, especially when we talk about wind power and wave power generators but, the Hybrid Fuel Cell technology is here and being prepared for mass production by several companies (Honda, Ford..) and Electric cars are being developed by GM and new technology Nuclear Power plants are ready to be built for very little more cost then Coal powered power plants and much lower cost to generate electricity. And the cost in lives would drop because many more people die yearly from coal mining and oil drilling then we've ever had from nuclear power (actually no american has ever died).

Sure the intial cost to change over will be more than not doing anything but much less then the cost to repair the damage done to our economy and air if we continue to go on like we always have, using fossil fuels.

And the funds would stay here and not go to governments that really hate us and support different terrorist organizations with funds that we helped to provide through purchase of their oil.
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:48 PM   #155  
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You're correct, especially when we talk about wind power and wave power generators but, the Hybrid Fuel Cell technology is here and being prepared for mass production by several companies (Honda, Ford..) and Electric cars are being developed by GM and new technology Nuclear Power plants are ready to be built for very little more cost then Coal powered power plants and much lower cost to generate electricity. And the cost in lives would drop because many more people die yearly from coal mining and oil drilling then we've ever had from nuclear power (actually no american has ever died).

Sure the intial cost to change over will be more than not doing anything but much less then the cost to repair the damage done to our economy and air if we continue to go on like we always have, using fossil fuels.

And the funds would stay here and not go to governments that really hate us and support different terrorist organizations with funds that we helped to provide through purchase of their oil.

Your last line is exactly why i'm so interested in accelerating alternative fuel research. I always try to buy American no matter what, and I would love being able to support home grown or home obtained energy that benefits our economy. I wonder if our demand for foreign oil could be partially responsible for our continuiing decline in the value of the dollar. I havn't looked into exactly how foreign oil is purchased, so i'm not exactly sure which currency is used on the world market for crude oil purchases. I'll never give up driving a gas guzzling SUV for having fun and going on trips, but i'll eventually run into a time in the future when I might have to replace my Focus which is the daily driver. I have plenty of time since I won't have any money for spending on another vehicle anyway till my TBSS is paid off in about 4 years.
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Old 05-25-2007, 08:12 AM   #156  
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There is some logic in what you say. The gas guzzlers are less of a problem if they are used only 10 to 20% of the time, vs. a daily runner.
This should be the basis for determining fuel efficiencies.
Unfortunately, there is no way to control 'usage' as long as we remain a free country (for all practical purposes).
It goes back to individual responsibility, but the public is constantly reprimanded for being non-caring, and abusive to our environment by groups running around with banners and no idea about what is really going on.
And we need the GOVERNMENT to do something about THAT.
Yes, 'government, make me more responsible. Who better to do that for me!!

Last edited by daleb; 05-25-2007 at 08:14 AM..
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Old 05-25-2007, 08:58 AM   #157  
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rbink, Let's put it in to proper perspective- How much do you think solar and battery technology has advanced in 10 years? BTW, The price point for alternative fuels to be a viable alternative to petroleum is 3$ a gallon. Side note to the head in the sand people- Oil WILL run out. Oil will continue to cost more. Do you prefer to wait until it's out before developing new fuels? Come on, the world , hell, even China has recognized we have finite resources in the ground. You "experts" on wind power really kill me.
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Old 05-25-2007, 09:23 AM   #158  
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There is some logic in what you say. The gas guzzlers are less of a problem if they are used only 10 to 20% of the time, vs. a daily runner.
This should be the basis for determining fuel efficiencies.
Unfortunately, there is no way to control 'usage' as long as we remain a free country (for all practical purposes).
It goes back to individual responsibility, but the public is constantly reprimanded for being non-caring, and abusive to our environment by groups running around with banners and no idea about what is really going on.
And we need the GOVERNMENT to do something about THAT.
Yes, 'government, make me more responsible. Who better to do that for me!!

What really burns me are RV's. Maybe i'm being a snob, but they seriously piss me off. Not only are they often driven by mostly people old enough to have seen the first world war(ok, I might be exxagerating just a tad), but they cause massive congestion which is also partially attributed to their size and the drivers driving them. Talk about gas guzzlers, these suckers get 5-8mpg at best and produce massive smog forming emissions as vehicles in this weight class have very few restrictions. You have no idea how often I practically choke following one of these beasts up a long climb on a highway. It's their right to drive these things as they really help our local economy, but I really wish the people driving these things didn't often drive like they own the road. It totally pisses me off when I see some old fogie lumber onto the highway with one of these things at 20mph under the speed limit and immediately heads for the high speed lane where they will camp out till they reach their next exit 100 miles later.
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Old 05-25-2007, 09:26 AM   #159  
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rbink, Let's put it in to proper perspective- How much do you think solar and battery technology has advanced in 10 years? BTW, The price point for alternative fuels to be a viable alternative to petroleum is 3$ a gallon. Side note to the head in the sand people- Oil WILL run out. Oil will continue to cost more. Do you prefer to wait until it's out before developing new fuels? Come on, the world , hell, even China has recognized we have finite resources in the ground. You "experts" on wind power really kill me.
Something you never read in articles advocating wind power is the amount of death they cause to birds. There was an article talking about the wind farms in MA last year, and it estimated that this farm was probably killing at least 3000-5000 birds a year. I've read similar reports about windfarms in some of the plateau states in the middle of our country as well. I thought i'd just bring this up since it never gets talked about.
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Old 05-25-2007, 09:31 AM   #160  
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I just sold my Honda S2000 which got about 20-23 MPG
I really miss the car, and the fact that the guy who got it works with me. sucks (cuz i see it every day) The s2000 had to use 93... which got expensive.

but i am driving my Subaru which gets a little better MPG.
I pretty much dont drive around like i use to. before i use to just drive around for no real reason. but i dont do that any more. The subaru i can use 87 which is great

My track car doesnt come out much, i have a nissan 240sx with a Skyline RB (motor). That also uses 93 octane.

i tow it to the track, and every now and then ill drive it. (but very rarely)
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Old 05-25-2007, 09:32 AM   #161  
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J-H, sorry, I'm not responding directly to you. I can't see anything you write, you're on my ignore list. Did I mention to everyone that my cousin is in Walter Reed right now? Seems the Iraqi's wanted to shoot down his helicopter and shot both of his legs up in the process. I had a dog in the fight, now it's other peoples flesh and blood, but as long as it isn't yours, who cares, right? It's the American way. I say all you folks that want to continue this mindless pursuit of an oil lifestyle, the US Army has openings, .... daily.
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Old 05-25-2007, 09:33 AM   #162  
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Originally Posted by F91 View Post
rbink, Let's put it in to proper perspective- How much do you think solar and battery technology has advanced in 10 years? BTW, The price point for alternative fuels to be a viable alternative to petroleum is 3$ a gallon. Side note to the head in the sand people- Oil WILL run out. Oil will continue to cost more. Do you prefer to wait until it's out before developing new fuels? Come on, the world , hell, even China has recognized we have finite resources in the ground. You "experts" on wind power really kill me.
Not that much as both are technologies that have been around for over 20 years - really closer to 30. Battery has come further than solar due to new materials for the batteries themselves.

But after 30 years we are at what? . . . . 30% to 40% for solar? There are obvious hurdles that cannot be jumped over no matter what they do or else the % of yield would continue to increase either every year or every few years - which hasn't happened
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Old 05-25-2007, 09:40 AM   #163  
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Something you never read in articles advocating wind power is the amount of death they cause to birds. There was an article talking about the wind farms in MA last year, and it estimated that this farm was probably killing at least 3000-5000 birds a year. I've read similar reports about windfarms in some of the plateau states in the middle of our country as well. I thought i'd just bring this up since it never gets talked about.
Wow, I'd never thought about that, so that and combined that wind power has a negative economic impact (cost more to build, maintain then it saves in energy costs) makes it a tree hugger's fantasy that doesn't work so well.

As you can all see, I've made my avatar the new soon to be produced Honda FCX-V4 Hydrogen Fuel Cell car.

I also added my name to the reservation list for a new 2008 smart Passion coupe (to replace my 2003 smart Pulse coupe).

So now we will have a Civic Hybrid and smart fortwo, both getting over 45 mpg, that will tide us over until 2010/2011 when the first new Honda Hydrogen model is sold. HAPPY, HAPPY, JOY, JOY!
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Old 05-25-2007, 09:48 AM   #164  
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F91,

You are correct to point out that natural gas / oil will eventually run out, and the cost will become prohibitive before long before that happens. Even uranium will eventually run out, at which time we will be left with solar / wind / geothermal elecricity sources.

So there is no question that eventually we will have to rely on these energy sources or cut back dramatically on our energy use. Possibly both.

It is a question of timing and economics. Unless the government changes things with laws / rules, the market tends to drive this type thing in our society. As you pointed out, higher oil prices causes people to look for other energy sources, and we are starting to see the impact of that in the cars coming down the pipeline.

Timing is another issue. This same arguement (that eventually oil / natural gas will run out and we will have to rely on solar / wind) could have been made by intelligent, future looking people at almost any point in our history. I am ignoring the fact that oil wasn't even discovered or a factor till around 1900. The timing would not have been right for two cave men having this discussion, even if the arguement was still valid.

So is the timing right today? If you are talking about vehicle fuels, the answer IMO is an enthusiastic "YES". If you are talking about generating electricity the answer is not as clear. We are not as reliant on oil as we are for vehicle fuel. We probably have more time, especially if we begin building nuclear plants again.

We do need to continue improving solar / wind technologies, and I think we will see improvements in solar technologies in the near future. But I do think the "total cost" arguement raised by some here is valid.

Let me give you a true example. My mom loves bargains and brags about "saving" money. She will drive to 5-6 different stores to save $2 on an item. Never mind that it cost $3 in gas to do this, in her mind she saved $2. The same thought concept applies to cars & generating electricity. If you pay a $4,000 premium for your Prius over a similar standard car, you may never get back your premium in fuel savings over the life of the car.
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Old 05-25-2007, 11:48 AM   #165  
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Ok- "total cost"- Are we factoring in the billions of dollars it takes to fight a war? I bet it pencils out for solar and wind and geothermal and tidal and whatever else.

Last edited by F91; 05-25-2007 at 11:49 AM.. Reason: spelling
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