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Old 02-26-2017, 11:13 PM   #12646  
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Originally Posted by redlineit View Post
Lee,

I had no idea the 428 lightweight '135' cars started with a 390.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26...t-lightweight/

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LOL - well they had to start as something!

The first 50 which was the number needed to homologate them for NHRA were 390 Mustangs. Ford hadn't originally planned on a 428 CJ Mustang. But at the urging of Bob Tasca and Hot Rod Magazine the 428 CJ - new for 1968 and was the motor used to replace the 427 LeMans Race Engine which Ford retired at the end of the 1967 model year. All the rest of the 1968.5 428 CJ Mustangs were GTs. Ford also used the 428 CJ to replace the 1968 Shelby 428 Police Interceptor Engine in the GT500 - became the GT500KR.








At the end of the 1967 model year Ford had a very small share of the muscle car market. The reason for this was a huge gap between the 390 which was nothing more than a slightly warmed over large car/station wagon engine and the all out high performance 427 LeMans Race Engine which was a very expensive option and required lots of maintenance to run properly. 320 HP for a BB engine in a muscle car in 1967 was nothing. Not against the 440/375 HP of Chrysler or the L78 396 from Chevy. Even the 442, not a big seller, had 350 HP. That's what Bob Tasca saw going into the 1968 model year which BTW was the first year of the Emissions Standards. From Sept. 1967 to the very beginning of April 1968 Ford really didn't have a hot muscle car because the only engine available was the 390/320 HP engine. So in an effort to gain back muscle car sales Ford developed the 428 Cobra Jet which started out as the 428 P. I. with the goal of high low end torque and low cost manufacturing. Then to top it all off Ford tried to sneak one past NHRA and rated it at 335 HP because NHRA used to use the manufacturers HP rating to decide classes until it found the manufacturers were intentionally underrating their engines. The 428 CJ's real HP was closer to 400 then 335. Something else unique for the Ford 428. Up until that time it was the only FE engine to be externally balanced. All other FE engines: 352, 390, 406, 410*, 427 and 427 SOHC are internally balanced.

BTW . . . the Curb Weight for the 1968 428 CJ Mustang GT 2+2 with 4 speed is only 3340 lbs. . . 10 pounds lighter than a 1968 L78 Camaro SS 396 Coupe with a 4 speed.

*410 was the FE engine that Mercury used.
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Old 02-27-2017, 12:59 AM   #12647  
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Here are another 10 cars from the Mecum Jan. 2017 auction that had estimates attached to them (not many have them) before they went up on the auction block:




Estimate: $45,000 - $60,000 . . . Sale Price: $37,000

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26...urney-special/




Estimate: $75,000 - $90,000 . . . Sale Price: $77,500

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26...l-convertible/




Estimate: $185,000 - $200,000 . . . High Bid: $160,000

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26...e-convertible/




Estimate: $90,000 - $110,000 . . . Sale Price: $65,000


https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26...-302-fastback/




Estimate: $65,000 - $75,000 . . . Sale Price: $52,500

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26...uda-formula-s/




Estimate: $75,000 - $100,000 . . . Sale Price: $90,000

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26.../#&gid=1&pid=1


picture share

Estimate: $375,000 - $450,000 . . . Sale Price: $225,000

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26...et-impala-z11/




Estimate: $125,000 - $150,000 . . . Sale Price: $145,000

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26...tte-ls6-coupe/




Estimate: $60,000 - $75,000 . . . Sale Price: $65,000

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26...dodge-charger/




Estimate: $60,000 - $75,000 . . . Sales Price: $55,000

https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0117-26...bile-442-w-30/

I picked 10 cars in a row that had an Estimated Sales Price skipping only one, a 1957 Ford Ranchero. So what's the tally? 40% in the estimation range - much better then the first 10 but still IMO not great. I would have like to see a 60% rate. That to me would show that whoever is doing the estimating has his finger on the pulse of the market, knows his cars and most important . . . knows his buyers and what they will pay for a car. IMO - there is a big difference between a guesstimate and a professional estimate.
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Old 02-27-2017, 04:29 AM   #12648  
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Old 02-27-2017, 04:35 AM   #12649  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post
LOL - well they had to start as something!

The first 50 which was the number needed to homologate them for NHRA were 390 Mustangs. Ford hadn't originally planned on a 428 CJ Mustang. But at the urging of Bob Tasca and Hot Rod Magazine the 428 CJ - new for 1968 and was the motor used to replace the 427 LeMans Race Engine which Ford retired at the end of the 1967 model year. All the rest of the 1968.5 428 CJ Mustangs were GTs. Ford also used the 428 CJ to replace the 1968 Shelby 428 Police Interceptor Engine in the GT500 - became the GT500KR.








At the end of the 1967 model year Ford had a very small share of the muscle car market. The reason for this was a huge gap between the 390 which was nothing more than a slightly warmed over large car/station wagon engine and the all out high performance 427 LeMans Race Engine which was a very expensive option and required lots of maintenance to run properly. 320 HP for a BB engine in a muscle car in 1967 was nothing. Not against the 440/375 HP of Chrysler or the L78 396 from Chevy. Even the 442, not a big seller, had 350 HP. That's what Bob Tasca saw going into the 1968 model year which BTW was the first year of the Emissions Standards. From Sept. 1967 to the very beginning of April 1968 Ford really didn't have a hot muscle car because the only engine available was the 390/320 HP engine. So in an effort to gain back muscle car sales Ford developed the 428 Cobra Jet which started out as the 428 P. I. with the goal of high low end torque and low cost manufacturing. Then to top it all off Ford tried to sneak one past NHRA and rated it at 335 HP because NHRA used to use the manufacturers HP rating to decide classes until it found the manufacturers were intentionally underrating their engines. The 428 CJ's real HP was closer to 400 then 335. Something else unique for the Ford 428. Up until that time it was the only FE engine to be externally balanced. All other FE engines: 352, 390, 406, 410*, 427 and 427 SOHC are internally balanced.

BTW . . . the Curb Weight for the 1968 428 CJ Mustang GT 2+2 with 4 speed is only 3340 lbs. . . 10 pounds lighter than a 1968 L78 Camaro SS 396 Coupe with a 4 speed.

*410 was the FE engine that Mercury used.
Maybe I'm missing something, but my point was, why install the 390 if you knew they were just going to take it out for the 428?
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Old 02-27-2017, 04:36 AM   #12650  
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Old 02-27-2017, 04:43 AM   #12651  
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Maybe I'm missing something, but my point was, why install the 390 if you knew they were just going to take it out for the 428?
Those 50 Lightweight 428 CJ Mustang 2+2s were special builds. When a car goes down the assembly line it has to have an engine in it so they can install all the other stuff and make sure everything works.

What they probably did was send the cars to Dearborn Steel Tubing who built the 1964 Thunderbolts for Ford and had them pull the 390 out and install the 428 CJ which was sent over to DST as a fully assembled crate engine. Then DST sent back the 390s to Ford who probably did not stamp the VIN into the block because they knew they would reuse them in other production cars. DST also probably stamped the VIN onto the 428 CJs to make the car "kosher."

If you are going to ask "why didn't Ford just install the 428 CJs themselves?" The 428 CJ was a brand new engine and those 50 Mustangs were the first Fords to get it. The last thing Ford wanted to do was start a Pilot Program for the Mustang and the Torino in the middle of the production year. You do that at the beginning. So DST probably helped Ford when Ford made the 428 CJ available as an option on the Mustang and on the Torino.
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:08 AM   #12652  
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:21 AM   #12653  
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One of the 14 "Swiss Cheese" 1963 421 SD Catalinas that Pontiac built. The car sold Jan. 2017 for $430,000 with an estimated sales range of $500,000 - $650,000.

The car was first offered by Mecum in May 2010 with a high bid of $475,000. Then it was again offered by Mecum in Sept. 2012 with a high bid of $570,000. And again in Jan. 2014 with a high bid of $530,000. So you can see where the estimated sales price came from. Unfortunately the value of the car depreciated severely and the owner probably got fed up with paying all the listing fees and transportation charges and just let it go kicking himself for not taking the 2012 high bid.


You would think that a car this rare with such a racing history would be a great investment - like money in the bank. Well . . . it didn't turn out that way. Sometimes the seller gets greedy with the end result you can easily see
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:35 AM   #12654  
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Here is a car that is almost a guaranteed money loser for a builder: 1964 Thunderbolt Replica. Mecum has had over 6 of them for sale over the last 7 years and not one of them sold. High bids go from a low of $20,000 up to a high of $65,000 with most in the $35,000 to $40,000 range. Cost of the car to build with a real Ford Side Oiler 427 is probably in the $80,000 to $100,000 range.
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Old 02-27-2017, 06:16 AM   #12655  
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Do you remember this car?













It only has two real issues of which one can easily be fixed: No Redlines in 1970 - $2000 to fix that. The Red stripes are a different story. Would require a repaint of the hood and trunk then putting the correct White stripes on. Cost to do that would be approx $6,000 to $8,000. So say $10,000 to get it back to stock.

The car sold in May 2016 (Mecum) for $56,000 with an estimate . . . . get this . . . . $125,000 - $150,000!


So why did it sell for that price? Because it was the other 1970 LS5 Chevelle SS 454 Convertible with a 4 speed at the auction and sold after this one:

This one which also has a 4 speed and factory air sold for $72,000:








So . . . subtract the $10,000 for paint and tires = $62,000 then subtract for no A/C - $6,000 = $56,000

A dealer bought the car and had it sit for I believe 6 months then he finally sold it. For what I can't remember. He probably thought he was going to make a fortune: big estimate, car sells for a fraction of it. IMO if he made $10,000 I would be surprised.

BTW - that Black with Whites stripes car . . . says $175,000 invested in the restoration


https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0516-24...s-convertible/

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Old 02-27-2017, 06:39 AM   #12656  
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I see a number of 1969 Z/28s with the Cross-Ram Dual Quad setup on them. I pity the new owners. This setup was never intended to be run on the street by Chevrolet. Neither of the Holleys has a choke on it so the engine is very hard to start. The setup was designed for SCCA Trans Am where the engine would have 14:1 compression ratio and would spend most of it's time in the 7000 to 8500 RPM range. The car won't even run properly until it gets past 3000 RPM. You absolutely need at least the 4.10 rear with the 4.56 a better choice, neither of which are in many of the cars that have this setup.

"It seemed like a good idea at the time."

Sure - open the hood and it's a very impressive site and many will oogle and drool over it because they aren't aware of the drawbacks of such a setup.
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:12 AM   #12657  
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Someone got one hell of a deal on this 1969 ZL-1 replica Camaro which sold in Jan. 2016 for $44,000. In early 2008 GM Performance Parts released 427 Anniversary 427 Big Blocks as crate engines. All aluminum with 10:1 compression, oval port heads and a hydraulic roller cam - good for 500 HP. The engine sold for $20,000.

What a fun car this would be to drive. The weight of a SB chevy up front with 500 HP! Just have to make sure the rear (it's a 12 bolt) is a 4.10 to maximize the engine. And a no hassle TH400. Only additions I would make would be to add Power Steering, paint the master cylinder low gloss black and get the proper valve covers that came with the engine (see photo below). No spoilers, no stripes just a ZL2 hood. Already has the 15" wheels and tires. I even like the color . . . "Arrest Me Red" with a Red interior.



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Old 02-27-2017, 07:21 AM   #12658  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post
Those 50 Lightweight 428 CJ Mustang 2+2s were special builds. When a car goes down the assembly line it has to have an engine in it so they can install all the other stuff and make sure everything works.

What they probably did was send the cars to Dearborn Steel Tubing who built the 1964 Thunderbolts for Ford and had them pull the 390 out and install the 428 CJ which was sent over to DST as a fully assembled crate engine. Then DST sent back the 390s to Ford who probably did not stamp the VIN into the block because they knew they would reuse them in other production cars. DST also probably stamped the VIN onto the 428 CJs to make the car "kosher."

If you are going to ask "why didn't Ford just install the 428 CJs themselves?" The 428 CJ was a brand new engine and those 50 Mustangs were the first Fords to get it. The last thing Ford wanted to do was start a Pilot Program for the Mustang and the Torino in the middle of the production year. You do that at the beginning. So DST probably helped Ford when Ford made the 428 CJ available as an option on the Mustang and on the Torino.
Thanks Lee...your explanantion makes a lot of sense.
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:04 AM   #12659  
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Thanks Lee...your explanantion makes a lot of sense.
Here is some additional info on the cars:

Quote:
Two versions of the 428 CJ engines were installed in these cars; one with 11.6:1 compression and solid-lifter cam to run in Super Stock/F and the other with 11.0:1 compression with a milder hydraulic cam for C/Stock competition.
Just a note . . . All other 428 CJ and SCJ engines used 10.6:1 compression.
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Old 02-27-2017, 12:22 PM   #12660  
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Lee,

That Arrest Me red ZL-1 clone does look like a steal, if it was built right of course.


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