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Has the BDA released standalone BD player sales numbers yet?

GLOW
07-31-2009, 09:41 AM
The last time I checked (awhile ago, I don't keep up with format news anymore) all sales numbers included the PS3.

Lee Stewart
07-31-2009, 10:02 AM
This is all that I have seen for BD SAL players sold in 2009:

U.S. Sales of Blu-ray Players Soar: NPD Group

U.S. consumers are warming to Blu-ray disc players in a big way, according to The NPD Group, a market research firm. First quarter 2009 sales of standalone Blu-ray players in the U.S. topped 400,000 units, a significant 72 percent increase over Q1 2008.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/164462/us_sales_of_bluray_players_soar_npd_group.html

Kosty
07-31-2009, 03:57 PM
No public NPD or other source data on Blu-ray hardware sales is out yet for the 2Q 2009. Except for some revenue numbers by category by NPD that had next generation DVD (Blu-ray) players having more sales than the home DVD category.

Lee Stewart
08-01-2009, 06:47 PM
The Q2 sales numbers for BD SAL's are in. They sold about approx. 480,000 units*:

http://www.hollywoodinhidef.com/blog_detail.php?id=291

*Statement based on sales of 2 million BD players for Q1 and Q2 which includes the PS3 which sold approx 1.2M. 400K sold in Q1 so the difference is 480K.

Kosty
08-01-2009, 08:15 PM
other stuff in context here

I finally found the full DEG press release regarding the first half of 2009 (posted below). It appears Video Business used DEG's numbers to produce their marketshare pie charts.

http://www.hollywoodinhidef.com/blog_detail.php?id=291


DEG RELEASES MID-YEAR HOME ENTERTAINMENT RESULTS
Home Entertainment Window Remains Stable
With Higher Margin Businesses Continuing To Show Growth

Blu-ray Disc Sales Up 91 Percent In The First Half 2009

LOS ANGELES (July 16, 2009) – DEG: The Digital Entertainment Group released mid-year U.S. sales figures for the home entertainment industry today. Consumer spending for the first half of 2009 in the home entertainment window for pre-recorded entertainment, which includes DVD, Blu-ray Disc and digital distribution, was $9.73 billion, off by 3.9 percent compared to the same period last year. Due to the favorable impact of the mix shift on margin, the home entertainment window's net operating profit contribution was down 2.2 percent.

Overall, the home entertainment window continues to show signs of stability. Consumer spending and net contribution showed a notable improvement in the second quarter 2009 versus the first quarter with total consumer spending on packaged media (sellthrough and rental) down less than 5.6 percent. Although consumer spending on sellthrough packaged media was down 13.5 percent in the first half of 2009, this was partially offset by the growth of Blu-ray (up 91 percent to $407 million) and digital distribution (up 21 percent to $968 million which includes $196 million for electronic sellthough). Furthermore, rental spending was up 8.3 percent for the first half of 2009, boosted by an increase in Blu-ray rental spending, which was up 62 percent.

“Despite an extraordinarily challenging marketplace, the home entertainment sector continues to be remarkably stable overall, particularly with the growth of higher margin businesses like Blu-ray and digital distribution,” said Ron Sanders, President, DEG and President, Warner Home Video. “While home entertainment is down compared to last year, the growth we saw in the second quarter is encouraging.”

Not surprisingly, consumer spending in the U.S. was down two percent relative to last year. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, overall retail sales were down 10 percent for May compared to the same period last year. With unemployment doubling since 2007 to 9.5 percent, consumer confidence is at its lowest point in 15 years. The Hollywood-based trade group also noted that the influx of tax rebate checks that were distributed in May of 2008 resulted in a temporary lift in consumer spending for the first half of 2008. These rebate checks were not distributed in 2009.

“The overwhelming satisfaction expressed by consumers with regard to Blu-ray shows great promise to the industry’s economic future and we are also optimistic regarding their appetite toward digital technologies,” said Bob Chapek, Chairman, DEG and President, Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment. “Both formats, converging together and resulting in one cohesive consumer experience, will present an opportunity for the industry to return to growth and eclipse our previous benchmarks.”

The DEG compiles quarterly sales data for various products within the home entertainment category, including Blu-ray, DVD and HDTV. The industry association compiles its data based on input from member companies, retailers and industry association tracking sources.

BLU-RAY MARKET GAINS MOMENTUM
According to figures compiled by the DEG with input from content providers and retailers, Blu-ray Disc sales were hugely popular at retail with sales up some 91 percent in the first half 2009. According to figures compiled by Swicker & Associates on behalf of the DEG, nearly 20 million Blu-ray discs shipped to retail in the second quarter of the year – a growth of 57 percent over the same period last year. There was 79 percent growth for the first half of the year compared to the same period last year.

During the first half of 2009, Blu-ray Disc hardware sales exceeded two million units, an increase of almost 25 percent over the same period last year. This brings the total installed base of Blu-ray devices in U.S. homes to nearly 11 million units. These include both PlayStation 3 consoles, along with a wide variety of set-top players that are available as either stand alone models or combined with home theater systems.

A number of Blu-ray products can also support digital media and nearly 75 percent are BD-Live compatible. Additionally, sales of Blu-ray compatible PCs are experiencing strong growth.

Additionally, according to figures compiled by the DEG based on data from CEA, retailers and manufacturers, more than 10 million HDTVs were sold to consumers in the first half of 2009. Household penetration of HDTVs in the U.S. is at approximately 44 million, up 13 percent from the end of year 2008, representing 38 percent of all U.S. households. Approximately 27 percent of all HDTV owners have more than one set.


DVD U.S. HOUSEHOLDS TOPS 92 MILLION
According to figures compiled by the DEG based on data from CEA, retailers and manufacturers, nearly five million DVD players sold to U.S. consumers in the second quarter of 2009.

Since launch in spring 1997, more than 260 million DVD players, including set-top and portable DVD players, Home-Theater-in-a-Box systems, TV/DVD and DVD/VCR combination players, have sold to consumers, bringing the number of DVD households to approximately 92 million (adjusting for households with more than one player). The DEG estimates that 65 percent of DVD homes have bought more than one player.


DVD HARDWARE SALES IN U.S. (in millions of units)

Q 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
1Q .030 .094 .358 1.350 2.220 3.565 4.858 6.855 7.741 7.852 8.350 5.30 5.80
2Q .079 .149 .611 1.435 2.404 3.750 5.506 6.057 6.006 6.676 6.396 4.98 4.90
3Q .077 .244 .880 1.550 2.537 4.740 6.470 6.593 6.250 6.831 6.139 5.20
4Q .119 .459 1.701 5.542 9.501 13.058 16.900 17.621 14.343 12.512 12.633 9.50
YEARLY TOTAL
.305 .946 3.550 9.877 16.662 25.113 33.734 37.126 34.340 33.871 33.518 24.9 10.7
TOTAL
(since
launch)
263.5

Includes set-top and portable DVD players, Home-Theater-in-a-Box systems, TV/DVD and DVD/VCR combination players
DEG: The Digital Entertainment Group


DEG: The Digital Entertainment Group is a Los Angeles-based, industry-funded nonprofit corporation that advocates and promotes the many consumer benefits associated with various home entertainment products, including both physical and digital media on a variety of platforms. The DEG helps provide information and perspective about the home entertainment industry. The DEG also offers a forum for member companies to engage in ongoing discussions concerning various opportunities related to promoting established categories, evaluating and discussing new entertainment platforms and investigating supply chain efficiencies. The DEG can be reached at 310-888-2201, via email at [email protected] or through its Web site at www.degonline.org.




It appears they are including the PS3 when they refer to "Blu-ray Disc hardware sales exceeded two million units". According to NPD data, PS3 unit sales were 1,119,900 during the first 6 months of the year.

PS3 unit sales
January 203,200
February 276,000
March 218,000
April 127,000
May 131,000
June 164,700
Total 1,119,900


We also know, via NPD, that blu-ray SAL player sales were 400,000 during Q1.

http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_090506.html


PORT WASHINGTON, N.Y., May 6, 2009 – According to the latest point-of-sale (POS) tracking data from The NPD Group, a leading market research company, Blu-ray Disc (BD) video technology is moving further into the mainstream. First quarter (Q1) sales of stand-alone Blu-ray players in the U.S. grew to more than 400,000 units, an increase of 72 percent over Q1 2008. Dollar sales increased 14 percent, to reach $107.2 million according to NPD’s retail tracking service.


It would then stand to reason that blu-ray SAL player sales were approximately 500,000 during Q2.

In regards to digital's reported $968 million in revenue, NPD provides some insight on how that dollar amount may break down between streaming/digital downloads and VOD. According to their data, VOD represents 75% ($726 million) of the total revenue while streaming and digital downloads represent 25% ($242 million). Of course those numbers include both SD and HD sales and rental revenue.

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=82236


PORT WASHINGTON, NEW YORK, May 12, 2009 – According to The NPD Group, a leader in market research for the entertainment industry, watching movies and other video content on DVD and Blu-ray Disc (BD) comprises the lion’s share of home-video acquisition and viewing, even as newer digital methods are beginning to gain a foothold in the consumer market. In fact DVD and BD sales and rentals represented 88 percent of consumer spending on home video content, based on a survey that asked about home video consumption over the previous three months.

Results from NPD’s March 2009 update to the “Entertainment Trends In America” consumer tracking study, which provides an in-depth look at shifts in entertainment consumption, revealed that the average U.S. home video consumer reported spending an average of $25 per month on all types of home video purchases and rentals. When it comes to spending on home video content: 63 percent was spent on DVD purchases; 7 percent on BD purchases; 18 percent on DVD/BD rentals from retail stores, subscriptions or kiosks; 9 percent on video on-demand (VOD); and 3 percent on digital downloads and online streaming.



Nice summary. I'm on the road, but I'll post the whole post over to the Nielsen and Blu-ray sales thread soon.

EDIT: completed

The_Omega_Man
08-04-2009, 11:31 PM
The Q2 sales numbers for BD SAL's are in. They sold about approx. 480,000 units*:

http://www.hollywoodinhidef.com/blog_detail.php?id=291

*Statement based on sales of 2 million BD players for Q1 and Q2 which includes the PS3 which sold approx 1.2M. 400K sold in Q1 so the difference is 480K.

Compare that to DVD player sales for Q2 and what does this then look like? :confused:

MikeRox
08-05-2009, 01:33 AM
A lot of DVD players are breaking? :D

The_Omega_Man
08-05-2009, 01:54 AM
A lot of DVD players are breaking? :D
Breaking....hmmm....Yea! That must be it! :p

MikeRox
08-05-2009, 05:07 AM
Well there's no other explanation given that there is already a DVD player for every resident in the US now isn't there? :p

Kosty
08-05-2009, 06:19 AM
Well there's no other explanation given that there is already a DVD player for every resident in the US now isn't there? :p

secondary rooms. people moving and upgrading equipment, buying new player with new displays etc...player in every room with very display etc..

Dare
08-05-2009, 07:31 AM
There are other milestones that have yet to be reached, such as, the point where the majority of Blu-ray owners perform their first firmware update. The number that perform their second update. And, of course, the number of owners that can't get an update. An even worse statistic would be the number of Blu-ray owners who never update their firmware. What would that be saying?

I wonder how many people would just buy a new player rather than update the firmware? That would be an expensive game.

MikeRox
08-05-2009, 10:30 AM
secondary rooms. people moving and upgrading equipment, buying new player with new displays etc...player in every room with very display etc..

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! You're killing my argument :thumbsup:. It was just a joke post ;)

Kosty
08-06-2009, 02:01 AM
There are other milestones that have yet to be reached, such as, the point where the majority of Blu-ray owners perform their first firmware update. The number that perform their second update. And, of course, the number of owners that can't get an update. An even worse statistic would be the number of Blu-ray owners who never update their firmware. What would that be saying?

I wonder how many people would just buy a new player rather than update the firmware? That would be an expensive game.

Well I just had a briefing yesterday by some brands that gave some statistics on firmware updates for Blu-ray players. For the major brands it was amazingly high for the BD-Live players based on server hits and was unexpectedly high for the non Internet connected ones based on customer survey information and file download data.

Chris Gerhard
08-06-2009, 05:55 AM
There are other milestones that have yet to be reached, such as, the point where the majority of Blu-ray owners perform their first firmware update. The number that perform their second update. And, of course, the number of owners that can't get an update. An even worse statistic would be the number of Blu-ray owners who never update their firmware. What would that be saying?

I wonder how many people would just buy a new player rather than update the firmware? That would be an expensive game.

I still don't see the firmware update as a big issue although it is an issue. It certainly isn't an issue for anyone I know that asks me, I will take care of it and explain it so it will be easily understood and handled. After hundreds of firmware updates for equipment including DVD players and STB's starting years ago, long before Blu-ray, I have never had a problem other than the fact a firmware update from Samsung often creates more problems than it fixes. I knew that after several firmware updates for my old Samsung SIR-T165 back in 2004 and should have realized that Samsung can't figure it out and it would be wise to avoid Samsung Blu-ray players.

PC owners have been required to update software for a long time so it isn't like this issue is something that consumers that are likely to own a Blu-ray player aren't already familar with.

Chris

PFC5
08-09-2009, 04:44 AM
I agree Chris if the update is done proactively like Sony & Panasonic do, and is for a room that has internet connections. Many people do not have internet connections and/or do not have such connections in bedrooms, etc., so it still is a problem for many people. Especially when the non-Ethernet method is different from mfg to mfg and model to model. I have a Sharp BD player (no Ethernet connection on the machine) that requires a USB stick for updates, and a Panasonic BD player that requires burning a CD-R to update since there is no Ethernet in my upstairs bedroom yet.

At some point, I will get a wireless setup in my bedroom but for now, it is a PITA and I have had computers since 1987 and once had a 2400 baud modem getting firmware updates for computer hardware from BBS systems before the web was around.

It just sucks when you throw in a BD movie rental with everyone sitting down to watch a new release and then find out it doesn't play because you need a firmware update and then have to go find it, and remember how to do it for a particular machine you have (especially when you have 3 different BD players). It easily delays the movie being played for at least 1/2 hour IF the firmware needed is already released. Then you have to worry if it will cause any new problems as been the case in the past as well (especially with Samsung).

In my house, by the time I get it all updated no one is interested and are doing something else. With 5-6 people scattering to do something else it is hard sometimes to get everyone back to watch it together, or it is then too late to start watching it. I do not follow firmware updates like i did in the early days of both formats and at this stage (IMO) I should not have to simply to watch a new BD movie. These studios really need to cut out these changes to BD-Java that seem to cause more issues than even the DRM updates lately.

Enought is enough IMO, and they need to freeze and settle on ONE version of Java for ALL encodes now.

vikingfan
08-09-2009, 08:06 AM
It just sucks when you throw in a BD movie rental with everyone sitting down to watch a new release and then find out it doesn't play because you need a firmware update and then have to go find it, and remember how to do it for a particular machine you have (especially when you have 3 different BD players). It easily delays the movie being played for at least 1/2 hour IF the firmware needed is already released. Then you have to worry if it will cause any new problems as been the case in the past as well (especially with Samsung).

In my house, by the time I get it all updated no one is interested and are doing something else. With 5-6 people scattering to do something else it is hard sometimes to get everyone back to watch it together, or it is then too late to start watching it. I do not follow firmware updates like i did in the early days of both formats and at this stage (IMO) I should not have to simply to watch a new BD movie. These studios really need to cut out these changes to BD-Java that seem to cause more issues than even the DRM updates lately.

Enought is enough IMO, and they need to freeze and settle on ONE version of Java for ALL encodes now.


Once again, just use the PS3, problems solved.

PFC5
08-09-2009, 05:15 PM
Once again, just use the PS3, problems solved.

Sorry that is NOT a solution for people who do not want to use a game console, and if that is the only solution, then BD is going to be in trouble in the long run, until they correct that.

BTW, I do own a PS3 and I had a movie that played in my other 2 BD players but would not play in the PS3. I forget the name now, but did post about it back then, so even the PS3 is NOT the cure all for the problem and they need to fix the SOURCE of the problem not the symptoms. ;)

HD Goofnut
08-09-2009, 06:37 PM
Sorry that is NOT a solution for people who do not want to use a game console, and if that is the only solution, then BD is going to be in trouble in the long run, until they correct that.

BTW, I do own a PS3 and I had a movie that played in my other 2 BD players but would not play in the PS3. I forget the name now, but did post about it back then, so even the PS3 is NOT the cure all for the problem and they need to fix the SOURCE of the problem not the symptoms. ;)

Wonder what movie it was because I have never had a movie have issues on my PS3. I see where the updates are up to version 2.80 as well.

vikingfan
08-09-2009, 09:51 PM
Sorry that is NOT a solution for people who do not want to use a game console, and if that is the only solution, then BD is going to be in trouble in the long run, until they correct that.

BTW, I do own a PS3 and I had a movie that played in my other 2 BD players but would not play in the PS3. I forget the name now, but did post about it back then, so even the PS3 is NOT the cure all for the problem and they need to fix the SOURCE of the problem not the symptoms. ;)

You own a PS3, its the most dependable when it comes to FW issues (I've NEVER had ANYTHING not play) use it. I wasn't making a generalized statement, just saying YOU shouldn't take a chance that the other players you own might not play the disc since you don't keep up on the FW updates.

If you can remember the disc that caused the issue on the PS3 I'd like to know, cause I'm a little skeptical.

Dare
08-09-2009, 11:18 PM
I still don't see the firmware update as a big issue although it is an issue. It certainly isn't an issue for anyone I know that asks me, I will take care of it and explain it so it will be easily understood and handled. After hundreds of firmware updates for equipment including DVD players and STB's starting years ago, long before Blu-ray, I have never had a problem other than the fact a firmware update from Samsung often creates more problems than it fixes. I knew that after several firmware updates for my old Samsung SIR-T165 back in 2004 and should have realized that Samsung can't figure it out and it would be wise to avoid Samsung Blu-ray players.

PC owners have been required to update software for a long time so it isn't like this issue is something that consumers that are likely to own a Blu-ray player aren't already familar with.

Chris

As long as everyone who may potentially own a Blu-ray player knows somebody like you or me to do the updates for them, I guess everything's just fine, right? (I don't know about you, but I don't want to be the guy that makes the rounds and updates my parents' and non-techincal friends' players.)

But we're talking about mass adoption, or total replacement of all DVD players with Blu-ray players, which isn't going to happen with this issue. And even if it does, I could imagine that when the players stop playing the newest releases, that'll be the end of new Blu-ray disc purchases for a lot of people. Don't assume most people in the world are like you and me, who are way into these fiddly machines. If most people encounter any resistance with simply coming home and playing a movie, they'll just turn on cable. Most people think I'm insane for using a computer to watch movies.

HD Goofnut
08-09-2009, 11:34 PM
As long as everyone who may potentially own a Blu-ray player knows somebody like you or me to do the updates for them, I guess everything's just fine, right? (I don't know about you, but I don't want to be the guy that makes the rounds and updates my parents' and non-techincal friends' players.)

But we're talking about mass adoption, or total replacement of all DVD players with Blu-ray players, which isn't going to happen with this issue. And even if it does, I could imagine that when the players stop playing the newest releases, that'll be the end of new Blu-ray disc purchases for a lot of people. Don't assume most people in the world are like you and me, who are way into these fiddly machines. If most people encounter any resistance with simply coming home and playing a movie, they'll just turn on cable. Most people think I'm insane for using a computer to watch movies.

Maybe Sony should have given every American household a free PS3 since updating it is a piece of cake.:lol:

MikeRox
08-10-2009, 01:54 AM
But we're talking about mass adoption, or total replacement of all DVD players with Blu-ray players, which isn't going to happen with this issue. And even if it does, I could imagine that when the players stop playing the newest releases, that'll be the end of new Blu-ray disc purchases for a lot of people. Don't assume most people in the world are like you and me, who are way into these fiddly machines. If most people encounter any resistance with simply coming home and playing a movie, they'll just turn on cable. Most people think I'm insane for using a computer to watch movies.

It didn't happen with DVD. Most people who picked up an early unbraded DVD player (the ones that were "only" 150) in the early days ended up having to buy new ones when titles like The Matrix started coming out as they were incapable of reading dual layer discs. :duh:

I'll never get over the dissapointed of paying 29.99 for The Matrix, getting it home and then having to wait until my parents shelled out another 100+ on another DVD player before being able to watch it. Luckily because my dad really wanted to see it, a new DVD player suddenly became an essential :lol: but that was all in the first 2 years of DVD in the UK.

I don't think to date, any Blu-ray player has been completely unable to play a disc due to hardware limitations has it?

Btw, it doesn't make the firmware situation any better, it's just I remember DVD having a much bigger issue with the dual layer thing, and the whole influx of "rental" films to retail stores as people used the pause between layers as an excuse to return films as faulty once they had seen them.

PFC5
08-10-2009, 05:26 PM
You own a PS3, its the most dependable when it comes to FW issues (I've NEVER had ANYTHING not play) use it. I wasn't making a generalized statement, just saying YOU shouldn't take a chance that the other players you own might not play the disc since you don't keep up on the FW updates.

If you can remember the disc that caused the issue on the PS3 I'd like to know, cause I'm a little skeptical.

I would generally agree that the PS3 seems to be the most dependable, but as I said, it is NOT the only solution and should NOT be at this point.

I do keep up on my firmware when I run into an issue, but I am no longer looking every week for a new update for each of my BD players like I did at first, and I shouldn't have to IMO. So is the BDA expecting everyone to watch for updates every week and also expecting this of average consumers? If so I do not think it will work long term IMO, as people want to just put in a movie and have it play.

Go ahead and be skeptical if you want. There were others who had an issue with the same title and some who did not. I found the title and where I posted it here:

http://www.highdefforum.com/blu-ray-players/89640-new-1-7-firmware-out-bd35.html

I never got it to play in the PS3. A few others on the web did have problems with this title and most didn't have any problems with their PS3, so believe what you want to believe, but ask yourself WHY i would lie about this since I have likely owned BD longer than you and have owned it since 11/2006. It was also 1 year after HD DVD died also. ;)

PFC5
08-10-2009, 05:32 PM
It didn't happen with DVD. Most people who picked up an early unbraded DVD player (the ones that were "only" 150) in the early days ended up having to buy new ones when titles like The Matrix started coming out as they were incapable of reading dual layer discs. :duh:

I'll never get over the dissapointed of paying 29.99 for The Matrix, getting it home and then having to wait until my parents shelled out another 100+ on another DVD player before being able to watch it. Luckily because my dad really wanted to see it, a new DVD player suddenly became an essential :lol: but that was all in the first 2 years of DVD in the UK.

I don't think to date, any Blu-ray player has been completely unable to play a disc due to hardware limitations has it?

Btw, it doesn't make the firmware situation any better, it's just I remember DVD having a much bigger issue with the dual layer thing, and the whole influx of "rental" films to retail stores as people used the pause between layers as an excuse to return films as faulty once they had seen them.

The dual layer issue with early players only lasted for the first 2 years in the USA (at least). My first player had the problem and i returned it for another when I first bought a SD DVD player. As a matter of fact, the replacement player was an RCA player and it STILL plays everything I throw in it. How far into BD are we now? So after 3 years+ we still have issues with new releases and NO ONE can say these issues will be going anytime soon or even ever. :eek:

THAT is the difference. ;)

Lee Stewart
08-10-2009, 07:04 PM
The dual layer issue with early players only lasted for the first 2 years in the USA (at least). My first player had the problem and i returned it for another when I first bought a SD DVD player. As a matter of fact, the replacement player was an RCA player and it STILL plays everything I throw in it. How far into BD are we now? So after 3 years+ we still have issues with new releases and NO ONE can say these issues will be going anytime soon or even ever. :eek:

THAT is the difference. ;)

:confused:

I bought a Toshiba DVD player on March 17, 1997 and the only issue I had with it was that it didn't play DTS tracks. But it played single and dual layers DVD's with no hiccups as it was supposed to:

[1.18] What's a dual-layer disc? Will it work in all players?

http://www.allformp3.com/dvd-faqs/118.htm

DonnyDC
08-10-2009, 07:35 PM
From the link above.
Some discs are designed with a "seamless layer change" that technically goes beyond what the DVD spec allows. This causes problems on a few older players.

Lee Stewart
08-10-2009, 07:54 PM
From the link above.

And?

technically goes beyond what the DVD spec allows.

Those titles that were pressed didn't conform to the DVD specs at the time.

HD Goofnut
08-10-2009, 07:59 PM
And?



Those titles that were pressed didn't conform to the DVD specs at the time.

What's point are you trying to make Lee?

Lee Stewart
08-10-2009, 08:13 PM
What's point are you trying to make Lee?

This issue of early DVD players that had trouble with those seamless dual layer DVDs. I don't believe anyone can use that as an argument. And it is being used. As a defense for BD . . .

"See - even DVD players had teething problems."

HD Goofnut
08-10-2009, 08:15 PM
This issue of early DVD players that had trouble with those seamless dual layer DVDs. I don't believe anyone can use that as an argument. And it is being used. As a defense for BD . . .

"See - even DVD players had teething problems."

But early DVD players DID have problems with dual-layered DVDs which came a couple years later. There were even notices on the back of the DVD box that said something like all of the features may not be accessible on your DVD player.

Lee Stewart
08-10-2009, 08:30 PM
But early DVD players DID have problems with dual-layered DVDs which came a couple years later. There were even notices on the back of the DVD box that said something like all of the features may not be accessible on your DVD player.

Right - because that seamless layer change was "technically" outside of the DVD specs (at the time). I believe it was included later.

CEM's got a "book" with the specs of DVD as laid down by the DVD Forum. They were supposed to build their players according to the specs. Some must have gone beyond the specs because the seamless layer change didn't affect all early DVD players. Only some.

And that disclaimer was more geared towards the Multiple Camera Angles feature which was almost never used (except in porn :lol:)

The issue with no DTS - well DTS was given the chance to get their system into the DVD specs. But they took too long so the DVD Forum released the specs without DTS then added them later.

DonnyDC
08-10-2009, 08:39 PM
And?

Those titles that were pressed didn't conform to the DVD specs at the time.
A DVD is a DVD. Where the blame goes doesnt matter the fact is some DVD players couldnt play some DVD movies.


And that disclaimer was more geared towards the Multiple Camera Angles feature which was almost never used (except in porn :lol:)I guess we can bring this up next time a certain someone brings up the BD live issue.

I couldnt use the multiple angles feature in Planet of Apes cause my Panasonic player from 2000 seemed to have incomplete specs...

Lee Stewart
08-10-2009, 08:47 PM
A DVD is a DVD. Where the blame goes doesnt matter the fact is some DVD players couldnt play some DVD movies.

You tell manufacturers to build to spec - then they release software outside of the spec. So a DVD is NOT a DVD. One was in spec and one was out of spec.

I guess we can bring this up next time a certain someone brings up the BD live issue.

Please explain. Have no clue what you are talking about.

I couldnt use the multiple angles feature in Planet of Apes cause my Panasonic player from 2000 seemed to have incomplete specs...

What was the model number?

DonnyDC
08-10-2009, 09:07 PM
You tell manufacturers to build to spec - then they release software outside of the spec.So a DVD is NOT a DVD. One was in spec and one was out of spec.But you just said it was included in the spec after. So are you saying 'a DVD is NOT a DVD.. but it becomes a DVD later on when they decided to include it in the specs after.'
Either way like I said where the blame goes doesnt matter. A consumer buys a legit copy of a movie, and it doesnt work on their legit DVD player. Thats the issue to compare it with.

Please explain. Have no clue what you are talking about.Next time someone complains about profiles cause they cant get access to BDLive, apparently it was the same with DVD since some players couldnt access some special features.

What was the model number?Dont know it stopped working long ago.

Dare
08-10-2009, 09:31 PM
...updating...

Bzzz... fail. :D

kamspy
08-10-2009, 09:37 PM
Bzzz... fail. :D

If there ever was an easy to update piece of hardware it's the PS3.

If it's hooked up to the internet it will prompt an update the next time you put in a game disc. Just one click.

There's no winRAR or ISO burning to scare off the elderly.

Dare
08-10-2009, 09:38 PM
It didn't happen with DVD. Most people who picked up an early unbraded DVD player (the ones that were "only" 150) in the early days ended up having to buy new ones when titles like The Matrix started coming out as they were incapable of reading dual layer discs. :duh:

I'll never get over the dissapointed of paying 29.99 for The Matrix, getting it home and then having to wait until my parents shelled out another 100+ on another DVD player before being able to watch it. Luckily because my dad really wanted to see it, a new DVD player suddenly became an essential :lol: but that was all in the first 2 years of DVD in the UK.

I don't think to date, any Blu-ray player has been completely unable to play a disc due to hardware limitations has it?

Btw, it doesn't make the firmware situation any better, it's just I remember DVD having a much bigger issue with the dual layer thing, and the whole influx of "rental" films to retail stores as people used the pause between layers as an excuse to return films as faulty once they had seen them.

You're right, it didn't happen with DVD. Nothing remotely like this situation with Blu-ray ever happened with DVD.

We're not talking about early adopters getting players that weren't ready for the final spec. We're talking about studios deliberately making new discs intentionally incompatible with all existing players without a firmware update. That's a whole other kettle of fish, and something DVD has never seen the likes of.

It isn't a hardware issue, it's a software issue, and one that doesn't have to exist if the studios weren't having their sabotage. It's almost like they want people to stick with DVD.

Dare
08-10-2009, 09:44 PM
If there ever was an easy to update piece of hardware it's the PS3.

If it's hooked up to the internet it will prompt an update the next time you put in a game disc. Just one click.

There's no winRAR or ISO burning to scare off the elderly.

You seem to be advocating game consoles for the elderly. I might not have read that right, there seems to be something crazy in my eye. ;)

kamspy
08-10-2009, 09:45 PM
The people working in the DRM divisions are just making new power points to convince the home video heads that it will raise the bottom line.

They have to do something to keep their jobs after all. Pie charts and graphs are usually a good remedy for that.

tvine2000
08-10-2009, 09:47 PM
As long as everyone who may potentially own a Blu-ray player knows somebody like you or me to do the updates for them, I guess everything's just fine, right? (I don't know about you, but I don't want to be the guy that makes the rounds and updates my parents' and non-techincal friends' players.)

But we're talking about mass adoption, or total replacement of all DVD players with Blu-ray players, which isn't going to happen with this issue. And even if it does, I could imagine that when the players stop playing the newest releases, that'll be the end of new Blu-ray disc purchases for a lot of people. Don't assume most people in the world are like you and me, who are way into these fiddly machines. If most people encounter any resistance with simply coming home and playing a movie, they'll just turn on cable. Most people think I'm insane for using a computer to watch movies.

i have too agree with dare.the issue is mass adoption.if thats truely what the studios and everybody else wants then firmwares need to go bye bye.or one standard. as i said before compared to blu-ray dvd is still easy.pop it in,it loads and away we go.blu-ray has to be that easy.what pisses me off is the studios know it.all there trying to do is protect there movies{rightly so}but at what cost to me &you and new bd owners.imho they could fix this problem right now.besides a good hacker will find away to bust any code[s] they come up with.

tvine2000
08-10-2009, 09:58 PM
If there ever was an easy to update piece of hardware it's the PS3.

If it's hooked up to the internet it will prompt an update the next time you put in a game disc. Just one click.

There's no winRAR or ISO burning to scare off the elderly.

then why don't they build a sal player based on the ps3.i still say get rid of fw unless its a player issue not a software issue.we all know the studios are behind this.

tvine2000
08-10-2009, 10:00 PM
The people working in the DRM divisions are just making new power points to convince the home video heads that it will raise the bottom line.

They have to do something to keep their jobs after all. Pie charts and graphs are usually a good remedy for that.

help me out here.whats stopping blu-ray from mass adoption?is it java or drm?there both a pain in the ass.

Lee Stewart
08-10-2009, 10:13 PM
But you just said it was included in the spec after. So are you saying 'a DVD is NOT a DVD.. but it becomes a DVD later on when they decided to include it in the specs after.'
Either way like I said where the blame goes doesnt matter. A consumer buys a legit copy of a movie, and it doesnt work on their legit DVD player. Thats the issue to compare it with.

But it really wasn't a "legit copy of a movie" because it didn't comply with the specifications set forth to manufacture it.

Next time someone complains about profiles cause they cant get access to BDLive, apparently it was the same with DVD since some players couldnt access some special features.

Different story with BD. Both PIP and BD Live were in the specs from day one. The fact that they couldn't build BD players that met the specs is the tipping point.;)

Dont know it stopped working long ago.

:lol:

Lee Stewart
08-10-2009, 10:19 PM
then why don't they build a sal player based on the ps3.i still say get rid of fw unless its a player issue not a software issue.we all know the studios are behind this.

:lol:

Maybe one will . . . Toshiba.

They provide the Cell BE for the PS3. It is the Cell BE that gives the PS3 the ability to continue to be upgraded. No so with SoC's. They are "hard wired" while the Cell BE is like a blank piece of paper.

It is rumored that when they introduced the Managed Copy enabled BD players (yep - another "profile") the PS3 will be able to be upgraded for this new feature. Not so all of the existing SAL players.

Kosty
08-10-2009, 11:43 PM
:lol:

Maybe one will . . . Toshiba.

They provide the Cell BE for the PS3. It is the Cell BE that gives the PS3 the ability to continue to be upgraded. No so with SoC's. They are "hard wired" while the Cell BE is like a blank piece of paper.

It is rumored that when they introduced the Managed Copy enabled BD players (yep - another "profile") the PS3 will be able to be upgraded for this new feature. Not so all of the existing SAL players.

That could be scary close to what eventually happens.

For exactly the reasons stated above.

Kosty
08-10-2009, 11:59 PM
From the latest Variety Video Business digital edition (http://www.redigitaleditions.com/olive/ODE/RVD/) (no web article, yet):

Web boosts Blu-ray player sales
BD Live, streaming attracting consumers
BY SUSANNE AULT

The deep economic recession has slowed consumer adoption of Blu-ray Disc players from expected levels so far this year, but momentum is picking up with the expansion of BD Live and Internet streaming features, according to retailers and consumer electronics manufacturers. Earlier this year, analysts estimated that manufacturers would ship 5.7 million to 5.8 million Blu-ray set-tops to U.S. retailers in 2009, more than double the 2.8 million shipped into stores in 2008. By late spring of this year, however, the increase rate over 2008 was running about 75% higher than the earlier period—not as robust as expectations, say sources.

However, recently added set-top features, such as Samsung players’ Netflix streaming capabilities, are providing helpful momentum to counteract the tough economic climate. Abt Electronics noted that the newest generation settops, from makers including Samsung and Sony, are selling 15% to 20% ahead of the brands’ earlier models.

“We are a little bit below where we thought we’d be at this point. I think there is no doubt that the recession is severe and affecting everyone,” said Reid Sullivan, senior VP of audio/visual and digital imaging marketing at Samsung Electronics America. “But I think we might be able to hit the [original ship-in goals] through the back half of the year.”

The latest BD Live Samsung models, spanning the BD-P1600, BD-P3600 and BD-P4600, offer streaming of Netflix and Pandora Web music and will include the Blockbuster On Demand service this fall.

“I think the BD Live feature moving into lower-priced models has helped pick up more sales,” Abt Electronics owner John Abt said. “Surprisingly, many customers are asking for Netflix streaming.”

Currently, about 30% of purchasers of Samsung’s latest models activate Netflix programming, according to the manufacturer.

“We have been pleasantly surprised with [consumer response] to Samsung’s networking capabilities, including its Netflix and Pandora programming,” said Sullivan. “We have a very high rate of consumer activation for these services.”

Through much of last year, Sony was the dominant set-top seller. Now, due in part to its Netflix enhancements, Samsung has moved into the No. 1 Bluray set-top brand position, with about 40% market share.

Samsung also worked to simplify access to Web services by launching the industry’s first players with built-in wireless, the BDP3600 and BD-P4600.

Sony’s Web-connected Bravia TV sets will offer Netflix streaming by this fall. But its own line of BD Live Blu-ray players doesn’t yet offer the same ability.

Nevertheless, Sony’s current line, including the entry-level BDP-S360 and built-in wireless model BDP-S560, is selling twice what comparable 2008 models did.

“We are real pleased with Bluray business, and all of this is happening in one of the country’s worst recession years,” said Chris Fawcett, VP of marketing for Sony’s electronics division.

Streaming of Amazon Video On Demand, just added to Panasonic’s latest generation of set-tops, could also boost the category through the end of the year.

Manufacturers say that branded high-def TV and Blu-ray player bundles will play a core part of their consumer electronics promotions going forward. Through Aug. 8, Crutchfield.com  was offering a free Samsung Blu-ray player with purchase of a Samsung TV priced at $1,499 and up.

The holidays should continue to heat up Blu-ray player sales, note retailers and manufacturers. Walmart is widely expected to sell $99 off-brand models at that time, which should help spread awareness to the entire category. That pricing pressure should also encourage stores and manufacturers to slash tags on the branded models, such as the latest set-tops from Sony, Samsung and Panasonic, to a reasonable $149 to $199 range.

“We’d be happy if Elvis’ ‘Blue Christmas’ tune comes true,” said Fawcett. “We think that Blu-ray will definitely be a hot item this holiday season and could be one of the most sought after products of the season.” VB

DonnyDC
08-11-2009, 12:02 AM
But it really wasn't a "legit copy of a movie" because it didn't comply with the specifications set forth to manufacture it.Again, why should the consumer care about the details? They bought the movie at walmart or what not. That to them is legit.
The firmware issues with BD are despicable. But I dont see how someone can defend dvd players not playing studio movies.
Are you telling me if the problems with BD were cause of rogue authoring practices(which would eventually make it in the spec later on) that it would be all of sudden ok?

Different story with BD. Both PIP and BD Live were in the specs from day one. The fact that they couldn't build BD players that met the specs is the tipping point.;)So the only difference is that the DVD forum was clueless about the future?

:lol:Yeah.. I guess broken dvd players are funny.
A DVD is not a DVD, but the same copy becomes one later when its okayed to be 'legit'
thats funny...

Lee Stewart
08-11-2009, 01:00 AM
Again, why should the consumer care about the details? They bought the movie at walmart or what not. That to them is legit.

But we were discussing the nuts and bolts of the situation. The consumer always gets the short end of the stick - you know this.

The firmware issues with BD are despicable.

Well - we definitely agree on this point. :lol:

But I dont see how someone can defend dvd players not playing studio movies.

It wasn't the fault of the DVD manufacturer(s). It was the fault of the studio(s).

Are you telling me if the problems with BD were cause of rogue authoring practices(which would eventually make it in the spec later on) that it would be all of sudden ok?

No - I am not telling you that. I don't know enough about each individual issue that came about with each title. Only a few come to mind like the FOX titles that didn't play on certain BD players because of the addition of BD+

So the only difference is that the DVD forum was clueless about the future?

No - the BD CEM's rushed their products to the market when they weren't ready - they didn't conform to all the specs written down by the BDA. You can't see this?:confused:

Yeah.. I guess broken dvd players are funny.

Nothing lasts forever. :lol:

A DVD is not a DVD, but the same copy becomes one later when its okayed to be 'legit'
thats funny...

Specs aren't cast in concrete and you know it. They are revised all the time. Today, 3D BD's are recorded in Anaglyph. "Tomorrow" they will be in true Stereoscopic 3D. And they are going to revise the specs to include that. Just like they revised the specs for the addition of Managed Copy.

Not going to get into the usual argument with you over splitting hairs about the definition of a single word. Remember - it was YOU that brought it up from my link.;)

MikeRox
08-11-2009, 01:38 AM
Next time someone complains about profiles cause they cant get access to BDLive, apparently it was the same with DVD since some players couldnt access some special features.

I'd say the blank screen because the players were completely unable to read the discs is a bit worse than "couldn't access some special features". Btw, I though 1999-2000 was when DVD was hitting mainstream? Single layer only players were still being sold at this point, my parents had owned their DVD player 8 months when The Matrix came out.

At least firmware updates solve the disc read issues now, not that they should happen. There is no need for them IMO.

PFC5
08-11-2009, 01:45 AM
That first SD DVD player i bought that couldn't play dual layer SD DVDs was a mfg defect. They had a website that said to send them the player and they would replace the defective chip that caused the problem. Yeah right! I returned it and bought a different player.

This was in late 1998 or early 1999, so we are talking less than 2 years into the format, and they stated it was a defective chip in them. So I have to assume that it was actually less than when I had the issue with that player I returned. The player I replaced it with still plays every SD DVD I put into it after 10 years without EVER needing a firmware update.

If someone is going to compare that issue with dual layer disks to the current state of affairs with BD players needing updates for both BD-Java because they do not freeze at the current version of Java and also the constant DRM updates I just don't know what to say. Can those people tell me WHEN we will not need firmware updates to play all new BD releases? I thought not. :D

It seems that BD-Java is more of an issue than the DRM updates as a guess based on that reply from Oppo in regards to the different Java versions being used by player mfg, each studio, and encoding houses. Sorry but that is just stupid for them to not freese the Java version used. I know we are stuck with dynamic DRM, but lets at least get drid of the Java incompatibilities so more people buy into BD as a format. Pleeeeeaaaasssseee! :D

vikingfan
08-11-2009, 09:31 AM
.Go ahead and be skeptical if you want. There were others who had an issue with the same title and some who did not. I found the title and where I posted it here:

http://www.highdefforum.com/blu-ray-players/89640-new-1-7-firmware-out-bd35.html;)

And I see the person that responded said it played fine on his PS3, It played fine on mine as well BTW, plus you added this:

"Strange and even stranger is that this disc will not play in my PS3 which normally plays everything and a Google search only shows two people having any issue with this."

It seems you got a bad disc that wouldn't play, not that the PS3 lacked the proper FW, which was your original complaint. Do you still have that disc? If it isn't playing on the PS3 now, 7 months after the initial problem, would you still think its a PS3 FW issue?

I never got it to play in the PS3. A few others on the web did have problems with this title and most didn't have any problems with their PS3, so believe what you want to believe, but ask yourself WHY i would lie about this since I have likely owned BD longer than you and have owned it since 11/2006. It was also 1 year after HD DVD died also. ;)

Again who cares if you owned BD before me, I've said before that I believe you're biased, HDDVD not being around anymore doesn't change that belief.

Stew4HD
08-11-2009, 09:44 AM
And I see the person that responded said it played fine on his PS3, It played fine on mine as well BTW, plus you added this:

"Strange and even stranger is that this disc will not play in my PS3 which normally plays everything and a Google search only shows two people having any issue with this."

It seems you got a bad disc that wouldn't play, not that the PS3 lacked the proper FW, which was your original complaint. Do you still have that disc? If it isn't playing on the PS3 now, 7 months after the initial problem, would you still think its a PS3 FW issue?



Again who cares if you owned BD before me, I've said before that I believe you're biased, HDDVD not being around anymore doesn't change that belief.

:haha: SOSDD

DonnyDC
08-11-2009, 11:53 AM
But we were discussing the nuts and bolts of the situation. The consumer always gets the short end of the stick - you know this.And it happened with DVD just as its happening with BD. That was my only point thx.

HD Goofnut
08-11-2009, 11:58 AM
And it happened with DVD just as its happening with BD. That was my only point thx.

Honestly I feel that early DVD players that were unable to play dual-layer discs were more of a growth hazard than the present FW issues with BD. FW issues can be solved with a simple update, but if you're hardware simply cannot do something you have to buy an entirely different product.

Lee Stewart
08-11-2009, 12:22 PM
And it happened with DVD just as its happening with BD. That was my only point thx.

Oh - So what you are saying is that they didn't learn anything from the DVD problems and just carried them over to BD. Got it!

HD Goofnut
08-11-2009, 12:25 PM
Oh - So what you are saying is that they didn't learn anything from the DVD problems and just carried them over to BD. Got it!

Where are you trying to go with this Lee? As you say: You're trying to compare apples and oranges. Hardward issues and firmware issues are two unrelated types of problems.

Lee Stewart
08-11-2009, 12:34 PM
Where are you trying to go with this Lee? As you say: You're trying to compare apples and oranges. Hardward issues and firmware issues are two unrelated types of problems.

They were NOT hardware issues - they were SOFTWARE issues. The problematic discs didn't follow the specs.

DonnyDC
08-11-2009, 01:49 PM
They were NOT hardware issues - they were SOFTWARE issues. The problematic discs didn't follow the specs.No they just followed its future specs.:eyecrazy

Lee Stewart
08-11-2009, 02:01 PM
No they just followed its future specs.:eyecrazy

:rolleyes:

Monday morning quarterbacking?

DonnyDC
08-11-2009, 02:20 PM
Yes indeedy.
They were hardware issues, obsolete dvd specs, unfortunately for DVD there werent easy firmware updates to fix the problem of not being able to play discs.

Stew4HD
08-11-2009, 02:40 PM
We could talk about BD profile 1.0... but let's not

vikingfan
08-11-2009, 02:47 PM
:haha: SOSDD

Why should I differ from the majority of posters here?

Stew4HD
08-11-2009, 02:57 PM
Why should I differ from the majority of posters here?

Eggs-actly.. so why so you? :eek:

PFC5
08-12-2009, 05:35 PM
And I see the person that responded said it played fine on his PS3, It played fine on mine as well BTW, plus you added this:

"Strange and even stranger is that this disc will not play in my PS3 which normally plays everything and a Google search only shows two people having any issue with this."

Well it did NOT play on my PS3. I had and even double checked and the firmware WAS up to date. So me saying my PS3 has played everything means nothing because even though I have not had an issue with BD playback in my PS3 since 11/2006 until then must mean I was trying to say bad things about BD then. :rolleyes:

It seems you got a bad disc that wouldn't play, not that the PS3 lacked the proper FW, which was your original complaint. Do you still have that disc? If it isn't playing on the PS3 now, 7 months after the initial problem, would you still think its a PS3 FW issue?

Wrong. I reported the disc was bad and held onto the original disc from Netflix until I saw the replacement shipped, so I would not get the same disc back so I could make sure it wasn't the same disc. Nice try though. :D

Again who cares if you owned BD before me, I've said before that I believe you're biased, HDDVD not being around anymore doesn't change that belief.

See I was backing BD with my MONEY and not just my mouth since the year of release. I said negative things about HD DVD/Toshiba also and still do just today as well.

You trash devices without even owning or trying them repeatedly even in defiance of what the majority who claim they like something just because it "may" compete or hurt BD even slightly and you think "I" am the biased one. :roflmao: :p:error

vikingfan
08-12-2009, 06:58 PM
Wrong. I reported the disc was bad and held onto the original disc from Netflix until I saw the replacement shipped, so I would not get the same disc back so I could make sure it wasn't the same disc. Nice try though. :D

I want to make sure i understand this, you sent the first disc back after you saw a replacement shipped, and the replacement disc didn't play as well?

See I was backing BD with my MONEY and not just my mouth since the year of release. I said negative things about HD DVD/Toshiba also and still do just today as well.

I bought my PS3 in Dec. of 06 when the BestBuy in Akron finally had them in stock again, and I say negative things about Toshiba/HD DVD all the time. I'd say were even.

You trash devices without even owning or trying them repeatedly even in defiance of what the majority who claim they like something just because it "may" compete or hurt BD even slightly and you think "I" am the biased one. :roflmao: :p:error

I read reviews and demo'd HDDVD players at BB and HHGregg and saw no reason to purchase it due to hardware issues, disc problems and overpriced combo discs. I didn't need the headache just to watch one studios movies. I never once thought it could hurt BD, the lack of studio support doomed it to failure from the start. I admit I'm biased, can you. ;)

PFC5
08-12-2009, 07:11 PM
I want to make sure i understand this, you sent the first disc back after you saw a replacement shipped, and the replacement disc didn't play as well?

Correct. The replacement disc did not work either. The only other disc that would not play in my PS3 was a disc that had a very small hairline crack on the outer edge so I do not count that disc.

I bought my PS3 in Dec. of 06 when the BestBuy in Akron finally had them in stock again, and I say negative things about Toshiba/HD DVD all the time. I'd say were even.

So you have owned one about the same amount of time, but i still beat you. :D;)

I read reviews and demo'd HDDVD players at BB and HHGregg and saw no reason to purchase it due to hardware issues, disc problems and overpriced combo discs. I didn't need the headache just to watch one studios movies. I never once thought it could hurt BD, the lack of studio support doomed it to failure from the start. I admit I'm biased, can you. ;)

Using the term "biased" in the negative connotations in which you use it I am not. Especially since I DID own both because I wanted ALL movies in HD.

I did like HD DVD over BD because it was cheaper, had all features out of the gate where as BD did not, had all the HD audio decoders (for the soundtracks on the discs) built in, and could help with the transition with the combo discs (if they didn't price them stupidly that is). I also liked more of the early titles being released on HD DVD over what was being released on BD as well. Even the early PQ was better on HD DVD compared to BD.

So you see, having both formats I could make an informed decision about which I believed to be better and you could only guess since you never owned it. Just like you didn't own the SRT DVD player Toshiba came out with that has/had the majority of users posting positvicve reviews on it. You didn't own that either, but have nothing but trash talk about items you never owned whereas I owned them and DID choose base on actual use.

That is WHY YOU are biased and I am not when i make my determination of which I prefer. ;)

vikingfan
08-12-2009, 07:16 PM
Correct. The replacement disc did not work either. The only other disc that would not play in my PS3 was a disc that had a very small hairline crack on the outer edge so I do not count that disc.

You should rent it again. What I was saying is that if it still doesn't work in your PS3 7 months later, there's no way its a FW problem.
And FW issues is what I was saying the PS3 doesn't have.

vikingfan
08-12-2009, 07:23 PM
So you see, having both formats I could make an informed decision about which I believed to be better and you could only guess since you never owned it. Just like you didn't own the SRT DVD player Toshiba came out with that has/had the majority of users posting positvicve reviews on it. You didn't own that either, but have nothing but trash talk about items you never owned whereas I owned them and DID choose base on actual use.

That is WHY YOU are biased and I am not when i make my determination of which I prefer. ;)

So anyone who has tried a product but not purchased it, cannot state what they didn't like about it that kept them from buying it, and why others should reconsider purchasing it themselves. :eyecrazy

The majority of positive customer reviews came from major fanboys, and this kinda contradicts your other post. ;)

PFC5
08-12-2009, 07:30 PM
You should rent it again. What I was saying is that if it still doesn't work in your PS3 7 months later, there's no way its a FW problem.
And FW issues is what I was saying the PS3 doesn't have.

I didn't like it enough to tie up a rental of it again. When I looked back in my Netflix history I found the title that I had the problem with and I tied up over 3 weeks on that title already.

Even IF it worked with the latest firmware, there IS still a problem with firmware on the BD format as a whole IMO, since the average person is not going to like having to get an update and delay movie night with the family when a disc doesn't play simply because they do not stop making changes with BD-Java and they do not stick to only one implementation of Java for all encodes. I now l believe that the BD-Java issue is likely a much bigger problem compared to the DRM updates issue that we are going to have to live with. But there is simply ZERO reason at this point to not tighten things up in the BD spec and only allow ONE iteration/version of Java going forward. this is MY point. ;)

vikingfan
08-12-2009, 07:34 PM
But there is simply ZERO reason at this point to not tighten things up in the BD spec and only allow ONE iteration/version of Java going forward. this is MY point. ;)

Its not so much the spec as it is having the player having the hardware to do it quickly and correctly, which the PS3 is tops at.

PFC5
08-12-2009, 07:48 PM
So anyone who has tried a product but not purchased it, cannot state what they didn't like about it that kept them from buying it, and why others should reconsider purchasing it themselves. :eyecrazy

The majority of positive customer reviews came from major fanboys, and this kinda contradicts your other post. ;)

SO when did you buy it and try it out before returning it?

You said you never bought it. For something like this SRT player you cannot just use it without adjusting picture settings on the HDTV as well as the player settings and just doing it for a few minutes in a store without knowing what the TV settings are (especially the sharpness setting) is not really trying it out to make a fair appraisal of it's worth to tell others to avoid it IMO.

No it does not contradict my other post. You truncated my response in your quote there to suit your point of view and that is a BIG NO NO in forum etiquette as you know. In regards to many of the pro reviewers not liking it much it has to be taken with a grain of salt since these guys were mostly comparing it to very expensive high end players that cost as much as thousands more and this is what they are use to watching. Many are using it on projection screen measured in feet on inches compared to most average people watching it on a 32-42 inch display. They also were working off the incorrect buzz back then that it was a BD killer as well.

Even Chris G. has stated the majority of the reviews he read were positive, and he owns one as well. I found this same thing back then, but I have nearly zero interest in adding another player to MY system and mostly watch BD now.

PFC5
08-12-2009, 08:01 PM
Its not so much the spec as it is having the player having the hardware to do it quickly and correctly, which the PS3 is tops at.

Sorry. I believe that is incorrect. Different studios are using different versions of Java and so are encoding houses, and then you have BD player mfg trying to modify with firmware to adapt to this as likely the largest problem with BD compatibility issues right now. The PS3 can likely avoids much of this because it is basically a super computer with a hard drive to store all iterations of Java to be loaded as needed unlike SAL BD players which use a SoC to execute the Java version read off the disc.

If you think everyone only buying the PS3 as the solution then I say you are just treating a symptom with band aids. Most people do not want to pay $400.00+ for a BD player first of all.

Second, most people do not want a game console without even having IR ability to send commands of their universal remote to limit the remotes needed, when the only solution is to investigate and spend more money on a IR hodge podge solution for something that only should have been included from the beginning and would have only cost about a buck to have included it.

Third, when you add in all the electrical costs of running a PS3 (being a super computer) and heat heat and fan noise issues there are MANY reasons the average person will not like the PS3 being the only solution.

You did want everyone to actually want a BD player didn't you? I am sure the BDA companies want everyone to want them to want one. SO they NEED to fix this BD java issue and IMO, they should have already fixed this.

Why do you keep trying to deny issues with BD even when many have such issues? this is what will remain to be wrong with BD if they listen to people like you instead of most people that do not want such issues for a simple movie player.

Stew4HD
08-12-2009, 08:10 PM
I did a consult on Sunday with a lady that had a PS3 and gave it to her son because the noise was unbearable to her. She picked upa Panny BD60 and is happy with it.

I agree with you PFC.. BD/studios needs to quit screwing around and get their Java set so all players can read it. It's pretty bad when the software causes a need for a FW update instead of a change in resolution and or audio format.

Lee Stewart
08-12-2009, 08:16 PM
I did a consult on Sunday with a lady that had a PS3 and gave it to her son because the noise was unbearable to her. She picked upa Panny BD60 and is happy with it.

I agree with you PFC.. BD/studios needs to quit screwing around and get their Java set so all players can read it. It's pretty bad when the software causes a need for a FW update instead of a change in resolution and or audio format.

Just checked my version of Java on my PC ( I always get the updates):

Java 6 Update 15 :eek:

vikingfan
08-12-2009, 09:01 PM
Sorry. I believe that is incorrect. Different studios are using different versions of Java and so are encoding houses, and then you have BD player mfg trying to modify with firmware to adapt to this as likely the largest problem with BD compatibility issues right now. The PS3 can likely avoids much of this because it is basically a super computer with a hard drive to store all iterations of Java to be loaded as needed unlike SAL BD players which use a SoC to execute the Java version read off the disc.

Like I said, better hardware, like the PS3, not that they buy a PS3.

If you think everyone only buying the PS3 as the solution then I say you are just treating a symptom with band aids. Most people do not want to pay $400.00+ for a BD player first of all .

See above

Second, most people do not want a game console without even having IR ability to send commands of their universal remote to limit the remotes needed, when the only solution is to investigate and spend more money on a IR hodge podge solution for something that only should have been included from the beginning and would have only cost about a buck to have included it.

J6P does not have or use the hi end uni remotes so it won't affect him, he wouldn't want to go to the trouble of programming everything. And again not saying everyone has to buy a PS3 they just need to make players that can handle java like the PS3.

Third, when you add in all the electrical costs of running a PS3 (being a super computer) and heat heat and fan noise issues there are MANY reasons the average person will not like the PS3 being the only solution.

Way to overblow these issues. I've got one. I know what they use and how they act.

Why do you keep trying to deny issues with BD even when many have such issues? this is what will remain to be wrong with BD if they listen to people like you instead of most people that do not want such issues for a simple movie player.

Yes, I will be the downfall of BD. Maybe Toshiba should have hired me a couple years ago.

vikingfan
08-12-2009, 09:03 PM
I did a consult on Sunday with a lady that had a PS3 and gave it to her son because the noise was unbearable to her.

She must have super hearing, or the thermostat set at 95.

Stew4HD
08-12-2009, 09:14 PM
She must have super hearing, or the thermostat set at 95.

Oh yeah, no possible way that the PS3 could be flawed in any way, right? That just cannot be :rolleyes:

It doesn't run hot (why do they make cooling fans for it?) or make more noise than a stand-alone.. I have no idea where I got that from ...other than the the unit sitting in my rack .. the one that runs hot and is louder than the Oppo and XA2. Only the 360 is louder than the PS3.

mytime
08-12-2009, 09:17 PM
Oh yeah, no possible way that the PS3 could be flawed in any way, right? That just cannot be :rolleyes:

It doesn't run hot (why do they make cooling fans for it?) or make more noise than a stand-alone.. I have no idea where I got that from ...other than the the unit sitting in my rack .. the one that runs hot and is louder than the Oppo and XA2. Only the 360 is louder than the PS3.

Stew is that a 40g or a 60g PS3? My 40g is quiet as a mouse. :what: Not saying in anyway that yours did not get loud, just wondering what model. TY.

Stew4HD
08-12-2009, 09:20 PM
Stew is that a 40g or a 60g PS3? My 40g is quiet as a mouse. :what: Not saying in anyway that yours did not get loud, just wondering what model. TY.

Hey buddy! How are ya?

Mine is the first run 60GB model. I don't know which model hers was. My bro has a 40GB model and it's quiter than mine... less capabilities too.. but that is another discussion.

vikingfan
08-12-2009, 09:20 PM
SO when did you buy it and try it out before returning it?

You said you never bought it. For something like this SRT player you cannot just use it without adjusting picture settings on the HDTV as well as the player settings and just doing it for a few minutes in a store without knowing what the TV settings are (especially the sharpness setting) is not really trying it out to make a fair appraisal of it's worth to tell others to avoid it IMO.




I'm sorry you think my style of shopping doesn't qualify me to give an opinion of a product. I found it to be inferior at the time, especially for the cost.

HD Goofnut
08-12-2009, 09:21 PM
Stew is that a 40g or a 60g PS3? My 40g is quiet as a mouse. :what: Not saying in anyway that yours did not get loud, just wondering what model. TY.

Same here. My laser reader is the loudest component on my 40 GB PS3 and I can rarely hear that over my fish tank air pump and filter.

mytime
08-12-2009, 09:24 PM
Hey buddy! How are ya?

Mine is the first run 60GB model. I don't know which model hers was. My bro has a 40GB model and it's quiter than mine... less capabilities too.. but that is another discussion.

I'm fine . I hope your business is keeping you busy. Thanks for the answer. Are the 60 gb known to get loud? I ask because a guy at work is looking to unload his.

vikingfan
08-12-2009, 09:25 PM
Oh yeah, no possible way that the PS3 could be flawed in any way, right? That just cannot be :rolleyes:

It doesn't run hot (why do they make cooling fans for it?) or make more noise than a stand-alone.. I have no idea where I got that from ...other than the the unit sitting in my rack .. the one that runs hot and is louder than the Oppo and XA2. Only the 360 is louder than the PS3.

As I see below you've got the 60GB, I've got the 80GB now and the highend fan has NEVER kicked on, and it only did it on the 60 when I was playing for a couple of HRS in the summer and didn't have the AC on in the house. So she could either have superhearing, no AC, or no AC and a 60GB launch unit.

PFC5
08-12-2009, 10:38 PM
As I see below you've got the 60GB, I've got the 80GB now and the highend fan has NEVER kicked on, and it only did it on the 60 when I was playing for a couple of HRS in the summer and didn't have the AC on in the house. So she could either have superhearing, no AC, or no AC and a 60GB launch unit.

So you have both the 60GB launch unit and a 80GB unit?

Mine is a 60GB launch unit and it didn't get loud during the first year as much as it is now. We vacuum out all the vents pretty religiously so I do not think it is because of dust buildup inside it on the heat sinks. Our PS3 is used every day for at least 2+ hours, so maybe yours is not as loud because possibly you use it less.

Mine does get loud and DOES heat the room. I need no heat turned on in the room even in the winter in the northeast if it is on for hours. Running the A/C because of the heat and fan noise from the PS3 is not the solution because then you just replaced two problems with one problem, while not having ANY problem is the preferred solution. ;)

Don't get me wrong, I still say the PS3 is a great machine but it is not the be all end all solution for the compatibility issues with BD. Simply freezing the version of BD java used and requiring all parties involved to use that same version is the best solution as then we only have to worry about DRM updates since BD (yes. HD DVD did too) has dynamic DRM unlike SD DVD which was static DRM.

Another point to consider is how long will these mfg be able to create and distribute firmware updates on all the models made over the years? The more often they have to do these updates, the more money it costs them, and the less profit they can make and that slows when they can lower player costs to get the next stage of new consumers interested.

How long do we expect them to provide updates to the older models that still work fine if they didn't need updates to play new releases? Who thinks it will be acceptable to have them stop the updates in 5 years? Who wants to junk a otherwise perfectly working unit and be required to buy a newer model? How many times will people do this before they get fed up? It is not just today that needs to be considered by how will things be effected down the road? The sooner they get rid of a major reason for doing so many updates that cost a lot of money, they longer these mfg can continue doing them, and the less PITA issues and possible issues there can be for consumers. It simply makes sense to me that they now freeze BD-Java and force all parties to use the same version.

vikingfan
08-12-2009, 10:54 PM
So you have both the 60GB launch unit and a 80GB unit? .

Not anymore, house got robbed and the 60GB was stolen.

Mine is a 60GB launch unit and it didn't get loud during the first year as much as it is now. We vacuum out all the vents pretty religiously so I do not think it is because of dust buildup inside it on the heat sinks. Our PS3 is used every day for at least 2+ hours, so maybe yours is not as loud because possibly you use it less

Mine does get loud and DOES heat the room. I need no heat turned on in the room even in the winter in the northeast if it is on for hours. Running the A/C because of the heat and fan noise from the PS3 is not the solution because then you just replaced two problems with one problem, while not having ANY problem is the preferred solution. ;) .

I'd have to say I used mine 2hrs or more the days I did use it. the only time the high end fan kicked on I had been playing COD4 for quite a few hrs with the windows open during the summer, so the temp in the house was in the high 70's. It actually suprised me, because it had never happened before and I thought it was dying!

But the stand for my 57" TV is very open and gets good airflow so that may be a reason as well. The 80GB does run cooler and quieter, as of now its been on for 2hrs and its cool to the touch.

It simply makes sense to me that they now freeze BD-Java and force all parties to use the same version.

I shortened this to respond to your main point. I believe that will happen in the very near future, but right now, they don't want to freeze the standard before they get the performance they want out of it. IMO of course.

PFC5
08-12-2009, 11:41 PM
Not anymore, house got robbed and the 60GB was stolen.

Sorry to hear that. Which do you like better? Is the 80GB one of the models that still does the software compatibility with PS2 games or the later model that has none?

I'd have to say I used mine 2hrs or more the days I did use it. the only time the high end fan kicked on I had been playing COD4 for quite a few hrs with the windows open during the summer, so the temp in the house was in the high 70's. It actually suprised me, because it had never happened before and I thought it was dying!

I wouldn't think anywhere in the 70s or even the low 80s should require the high speed to kick in myself. It does that easily on mine though and even just playing a movie causes it to give off more heat.

But the stand for my 57" TV is very open and gets good airflow so that may be a reason as well. The 80GB does run cooler and quieter, as of now its been on for 2hrs and its cool to the touch.

Mine is very wide open and I actually (you are going to love this Vikingfan :D) have mine sitting on top of the A2 that is not able to play HD DVD discs without shutting off on the floor next to my rack. :lol: What symbolism huh?

I shortened this to respond to your main point. I believe that will happen in the very near future, but right now, they don't want to freeze the standard before they get the performance they want out of it. IMO of course.

They already have BD-live out for how long now? I think that is more than enough time to work out the kinks and now the continuing changes ARE the kinks IMO. ;)

vikingfan
08-13-2009, 01:17 AM
Sorry to hear that. Which do you like better? Is the 80GB one of the models that still does the software compatibility with PS2 games or the later model that has none?

No backwards compatibility with PS2 games, but I traded everything in when I bought the PS3, so that wasn't an issue. It doesn't have the memory card slot, so pictures have to be added to the HDD thru USB or a cd/dvd. But the bigger HDD let me put all my music on it.


I wouldn't think anywhere in the 70s or even the low 80s should require the high speed to kick in myself. It does that easily on mine though and even just playing a movie causes it to give off more heat.

As of right now the PS3's been on for 4.5 hrs (just finished watching I Love You Man) and the 80GB is cool to the touch, the AVR is the hottest thing on ther shelf.

They already have BD-live out for how long now? I think that is more than enough time to work out the kinks and now the continuing changes ARE the kinks IMO

I don't think its the live aspect that's causing the issues. The Java code is used for the menus, games etc. That's a nice option the PS3 offers, disabling the BDLive auto activation. Don't know if SAL's do this. I think this is still a feeling out process for the studious as far as what to give, versus what is expected as far as the "bells and whistles" go with java created menus and content.

Nikopol
08-13-2009, 02:57 AM
I think i never heard my 80GB PS3. My projector and/or my pc are definitely louder than my PS3. Stopped using it pretty much though, as my current BD standalone has better PQ than my PS3 and i don't play a lot of games at all.

Stew4HD
08-13-2009, 06:49 AM
No backwards compatibility with PS2 games, but I traded everything in when I bought the PS3, so that wasn't an issue. It doesn't have the memory card slot, so pictures have to be added to the HDD thru USB or a cd/dvd. But the bigger HDD let me put all my music on it.




As of right now the PS3's been on for 4.5 hrs (just finished watching I Love You Man) and the 80GB is cool to the touch, the AVR is the hottest thing on ther shelf.



I don't think its the live aspect that's causing the issues. The Java code is used for the menus, games etc. That's a nice option the PS3 offers, disabling the BDLive auto activation. Don't know if SAL's do this. I think this is still a feeling out process for the studious as far as what to give, versus what is expected as far as the "bells and whistles" go with java created menus and content.

Sorry to hear about your robbery.. that sucks! The 60GB model, even with it's "flaws" is stil lthe best of the bunch as far as features.. which is sad, IMO. I have several PS2 games, especially God of War 1 & 2 that I still like to play and they play flawlessly on my 60GB. My brother tried the games on his 40GB model and.. nope.. won't play. I know Sony wants up to buy only PS3 games or buy a PS2 for PS2 games but ..damn, they made some great games back then! I only use my PS3 for gaming now (other than when the ONE BD title wouldn't play on my Oppo). It's a great machine!

As for the woman's PS3 and sound issue, I didn't delve into the what/why's of the matter because she had already swapped out the players.