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1080p Displays: Price Gouging?

Blue_Tech
07-12-2005, 04:17 AM
I put this here because its a little more broad than one specific technology or application.

I reckon I'm venting a bit on the high prices of technology, but why in the world is a 1080p microdisplay so much more damn exspensive than one that only does 1080i???

My reasoning tells me its more of a processing issue than anything. It makes sense to me that interlaced display actually requires more physical work than progressive.

Maybe a faster processor along with a bit more memory (twice the amount to be exact) and a faster system bus to pipe the larger images to the display, but were not talking a graphics workstation here. Most STB's and video game consoles are doing all the hard work. I dont even see why the DLP or LCD panels would even need to be re-engineered, they are just spitting out what they are fed. Now, CRT's I sorta understand, since the electron gun needs more time to do its thing...

Ok, and I see the need for a much faster processor than I first envisioned since too much lag when queing up the frames would be horrible, especially for video games. But were still not talking about phenomenal processing muscle. Am I missing something? If they can do it fairly inexspensively for 720p, the game shouldnt change just because they are driving more pixels, especially when 1080i DLP chips have already been around for a while now.

I think I already know what you all will tell me... "They overprice because they can". Yada, yada, yada... I know, but I feel a little better now. Thoughts?

LordGamer
07-12-2005, 07:31 AM
People keep telling me that 1080p sets aren't much more expensive, but I thought they were. To me, 1080p just isn't worth the extra bucks when you factor how little content there will probably be. By the time 1080p content is the norm (if ever), there will probably be something much better.

Looking at the content, I would imagine there won't be many 1080p options within the next five years and again, by then there will probably be something better. Your only options would be PS3 games and HD movies. Now, unless Sony makes it mandatory that developers release games supporting 1080p (which I highly doubt they will), don't expect many 1080p games. As far as HD movies, I'm sure there will be some supporting 1080p, but most will probably be 720p.

Broadcasting you can forget about...1080p is way off.

Furthermore, from the 1080p content I have viewed (WMV HD), it wasn't that much better over other 720p.

borromini
07-12-2005, 09:11 AM
...Looking at the content, I would imagine there won't be many 1080p options within the next five years and again, by then there will probably be something better. Your only options would be PS3 games and HD movies. Uh...hi-def DVD movies is a potentially huge content pool. It's already clear that both hi-def DVD formats support 1080p and no reason to believe that the movie studios wouldn't take advantage of that. If by "something better" you mean a new, higher resolution format, this is less likely since it would be very expensive for fixed-pixel display manufacturers.

As far as HD movies, I'm sure there will be some supporting 1080p, but most will probably be 720p... There's no proof that this will be the case. There will be plenty of disc space and a constant increase in 1080p display production for movie studios to easily standardize on 1080p.

...Furthermore, from the 1080p content I have viewed (WMV HD), it wasn't that much better over other 720p. This is more subjective and dependent on the display type and size. I've seen 1080p content first-hand with both WMV HD and a Blu-ray demo and it was a significant improvement over 720p to me.

fryet
07-12-2005, 09:57 AM
In regards to the original post, I believe it is difficult to mass manufacture 1080p displays, mainly because they are new. As a result, stores don't have very many, and since there is high demand for 1080p, and limited supply, that results in high prices. As manufacturing capacity increases, and R&D costs have been recouped, I am sure that you will see the price of 1080p displays drop.

I also don't believe that you are being fair to the difficulty of making a 1080p display. Currently, the only 1080p displays that I have seen are LCD. Adding more pixels to a LCD display is not an easy thing to do. You have one bad pixel on the display (which is easy to do), and you have to throw away the entire display. The more pixels on the display, and the higher the chance that you have one or more bad pixels. You also have to design new chips to handle the additional pixels. As for processing power, I don't know, but I am guessing there is a reason why the first displays were only 720p or 1080i. Doubling the data processed from 1080i to 1080p would require much more powerful chips. In addition, these chips need to be able to quickly adjust the content to 1080p. Imagine taking a 480p picture, expanding it to 1080p, formatting it to look good on a 1080p, adjusting the color, contrast, sharpness, etc, and doing all of that in 1/60th of a second. That sounds like a graphics workstation to me!

LoToMo
07-12-2005, 10:17 AM
Do we have any set that can accept 1080p yet? If we don't have it, why we neet 1080p display? I believe I will buy one 1080p display IF and ONLY IF it can ACCEPT 1080p signal (at all inputs: HDMI or/and DVI ports, Components, RGB...)!

LordGamer
07-12-2005, 10:22 AM
Uh...hi-def DVD movies is a potentially huge content pool. It's already clear that both hi-def DVD formats support 1080p and no reason to believe that the movie studios wouldn't take advantage of that. If by "something better" you mean a new, higher resolution format, this is less likely since it would be very expensive for fixed-pixel display manufacturers.

There's no proof that this will be the case. There will be plenty of disc space and a constant increase in 1080p display production for movie studios to easily standardize on 1080p.

It's just my opinion that most studios will go with 720p, but backed with good reason. Why would the studio bother with 1080p at all? There is only going to be a handful of people with HD sets capable of displaying the signal. And it's not like 1080p sets are going to be common within the next five years. To us, higher end tech is the way to go, but your average Joe or Jill is not going to bother with HD players and movies much, yet alone the equipment to do 1080p.

Now, I'm not saying there won't be 1080p movies, but I imagine the majority will be 720p. But I don't know...is it just as easy for the studios to do 1080p as 720p...anyone?

This is more subjective and dependent on the display type and size. I've seen 1080p content first-hand with both WMV HD and a Blu-ray demo and it was a significant improvement over 720p to me.

Well, to each their own, but again, I don't believe mainstream consumers are going to notice a big difference from 720p to 1080p.


But even still... basically the biggest option to get 1080p content is going to be HD movies. Factor that HD movies are not going to be mainstream for many years and the initial cost of the players will be high and there are limited sets that can do 1080p, and you see why I don't think it's worth the hype. Hell, there isn't even an HD disc standard yet.

retorq
07-12-2005, 11:59 AM
This thread is funny, I'm not even going to take time to read all the responces, I'm just going to laugh at those who want bleeding edge technology and then complain that it comands a premium price.

LordGamer
07-12-2005, 12:29 PM
This thread is funny, I'm not even going to take time to read all the responces, I'm just going to laugh at those who want bleeding edge technology and then complain that it comands a premium price.

Can't have cake and ice cream, huh? Party pooper. :crying:

FourK
07-12-2005, 02:45 PM
Where are you getting the huge price differential?
Do you expect 1080p to cost the same as 720p?

xplode
07-12-2005, 08:56 PM
Where are you getting the huge price differential?
Do you expect 1080p to cost the same as 720p?

in a perfect world maybe lol :yippee:

borromini
07-12-2005, 09:04 PM
Why would the studio bother with 1080p at all? There is only going to be a handful of people with HD sets capable of displaying the signal. And it's not like 1080p sets are going to be common within the next five years.The studios won't have an issue with 1080p hi-def DVDs because that standard is already part of the two hi-def DVD player formats. The other reason is that currently all the studios use 1080p when mastering 35mm film in HD. It makes no sense to then go ahead and downconvert to 720p hi-def DVDs when the film is already mastered in 1080p with the players supporting it!

The studios, just like Sony and Toshiba aren't basing their decision on how many 1080p sets exists today. When the first batch of progressive-scan DVD players were issued, there was only a couple of EDTVs on the market. It's historically clear that DVD manufacturers don't base their impending new standards on what type of TVs are currently prevalent. There's no evidence to assume that the studios would think any differently. The first crop of 1080p DLP RPTVs are coming out this summer/fall and LCD 1080p sets are now available. The number will continue to grow...there's no market force or inherent production limitations. I totally disagree and feel that 1080p TVs will have a presence in five years. This is based on past trends of how quickly 480p EDTVs were accompanied by 720p HDTVs. If five years go by and 1080p sets haven't grown in numbers similar to the way 720p has, then this would be a total departure from the current HDTV growth/adoption rate. There's nothing to indicate that this is going to happen.

Sorry LordGamer but your basing your predictions on everything that goes against how the HDTV market has so far evolved. There's a lot more evidence from past trends that indicate that 1080p will become the mainstream standard in five years.

As for quality compared to 720p, it's not whether the average joe/jill can tell the difference. It's based on what is on the showroom floor. Folks that argue today that people are buying EDTVs because they don't see the difference between 480p and 720p are also conceding that this isn't slowing down the HDTV market and acknowledge that it's only a matter of time before EDTVs become a thing of the past. This trend will continue through with 1080p adoption rates. Also, the bigger the screen, the more pronounced the difference is between 1080p and 720p.

rbinck
07-12-2005, 09:14 PM
Everybody seems (although not said) to be assuming 1080p/60fps. My guess would be the HD DVDs will be 1080p/30fps which is the same bandwidth as 1080i/30fps. Talking about 1080p without adding the frames is incomplete because you can't assume 60fps.

Blue_Tech
07-13-2005, 02:24 AM
Everybody seems (although not said) to be assuming 1080p/60fps. My guess would be the HD DVDs will be 1080p/30fps which is the same bandwidth as 1080i/30fps. Talking about 1080p without adding the frames is incomplete because you can't assume 60fps.

Yes, true.. I often forget the frame rate when discussing 1080 display formats. After all, everything I know on the subject has been learned directly and/or indirectly through this forum, and I've only been here about 2 months or so. That being said, with 1080p/30fps having the same bandwidth as 1080i/30fps, the processing effort should not increase that terribly much, maybe even drop a bit.

If I understand things correctly, Interlaced is throwing all the odd lines first, then the even lines on a subsequent pass... (maybe the other way around), but progressive is throwing all the lines at once. Depending on how you look at it, this looks like it might actually require less work to accomplish, only a larger system bus to pipe the larger amount of data to the screen.

LordGamer
07-13-2005, 07:09 AM
The studios won't have an issue with 1080p hi-def DVDs because that standard is already part of the two hi-def DVD player formats. The other reason is that currently all the studios use 1080p when mastering 35mm film in HD. It makes no sense to then go ahead and downconvert to 720p hi-def DVDs when the film is already mastered in 1080p with the players supporting it!

The studios, just like Sony and Toshiba aren't basing their decision on how many 1080p sets exists today. When the first batch of progressive-scan DVD players were issued, there was only a couple of EDTVs on the market. It's historically clear that DVD manufacturers don't base their impending new standards on what type of TVs are currently prevalent. There's no evidence to assume that the studios would think any differently. The first crop of 1080p DLP RPTVs are coming out this summer/fall and LCD 1080p sets are now available. The number will continue to grow...there's no market force or inherent production limitations. I totally disagree and feel that 1080p TVs will have a presence in five years. This is based on past trends of how quickly 480p EDTVs were accompanied by 720p HDTVs. If five years go by and 1080p sets haven't grown in numbers similar to the way 720p has, then this would be a total departure from the current HDTV growth/adoption rate. There's nothing to indicate that this is going to happen.

Sorry LordGamer but your basing your predictions on everything that goes against how the HDTV market has so far evolved. There's a lot more evidence from past trends that indicate that 1080p will become the mainstream standard in five years.

As for quality compared to 720p, it's not whether the average joe/jill can tell the difference. It's based on what is on the showroom floor. Folks that argue today that people are buying EDTVs because they don't see the difference between 480p and 720p are also conceding that this isn't slowing down the HDTV market and acknowledge that it's only a matter of time before EDTVs become a thing of the past. This trend will continue through with 1080p adoption rates. Also, the bigger the screen, the more pronounced the difference is between 1080p and 720p.

I have a unique ability most don't...the ability to admit when I have been defeated!

FLAWLESS VICTORY! :eek: :bowdown:

I think part of the reason why I was blowing off 1080p, because I don't want to look into buying one. I have been going back and forth for months trying to figure out what to buy and I finally decided on the upcoming 42" Sony ("e" series). Now, I might look into 1080p sets...thanks buddy. :rolleyes:

So do you (or anyone) know about current 1080p sets? Are there a few affordable ones now? $2,000 to $3,000 range. Also, what will be coming soon...thanks.

Everybody seems (although not said) to be assuming 1080p/60fps. My guess would be the HD DVDs will be 1080p/30fps which is the same bandwidth as 1080i/30fps. Talking about 1080p without adding the frames is incomplete because you can't assume 60fps.

Could you go into a bit more detail about this...why do you believe it will only be 30fps?

strawberry
07-13-2005, 08:53 AM
Could you go into a bit more detail about this...why do you believe it will only be 30fps?

I don't mean to speak for Rbinck- but the biggest reason why we can expect a frame rate lower than 60 for next-gen movies is because the source material is almost always shot at 24 fps- to encode the video files for the disc at 60 fps would be a waste of disc real estate- you'd be spending more than twice the space on the disc for redundant frames than you would actual ones. Even current film-based DVD's are generally encoded at 24i.

I actually would expect to see next-gen movies encoded at 24p frames, not 30. This is the most efficient way to store information on the disc, and 720p24 and 1080p24 were made official ATSC formats for this very reason, IMO.

LordGamer
07-13-2005, 09:34 AM
I don't mean to speak for Rbinck- but the biggest reason why we can expect a frame rate lower than 60 for next-gen movies is because the source material is almost always shot at 24 fps- to encode the video files for the disc at 60 fps would be a waste of disc real estate- you'd be spending more than twice the space on the disc for redundant frames than you would actual ones. Even current film-based DVD's are generally encoded at 24i.

I actually would expect to see next-gen movies encoded at 24p frames, not 30. This is the most efficient way to store information on the disc, and 720p24 and 1080p24 were made official ATSC formats for this very reason, IMO.

Thanks. Just checking to see if was a technical reason. Mainly, because I wanted to see if it would be possible to develop 60 fps games in 1080p.

So, what is your take on 1080p sets? Do you think I could pick up a 1080p set this year for under $3,000?

fryet
07-13-2005, 09:50 AM
I bought my EDTV a month ago. At the time, my store only had one TV capable of 1080p, and it was selling for $7000. I think you will have a hard time finding any HDTV for $2000-$3000. That is more the range for EDTVs (although some of the projection HDTVs may be in that range). I think at best you will find some 1080p sets for around $5000 by the end of the year.

I also wanted a 1080p set, but looking at the one in the store, I wasn't that impressed with the picture. Some of the 720p sets were looking better. I decided that the technology was too new, and that I would be better off waiting a couple of years for them to work out the bugs in the new 1080p technology. In the meantime, I bought an EDTV for $2000, and I figure that if I spend less than $5000 on a 1080p set in the next few years, I will end up spending less money on a better 1080p set than if I bought the only one that they had right now.

strawberry
07-13-2005, 10:00 AM
Thanks. Just checking to see if was a technical reason. Mainly, because I wanted to see if it would be possible to develop 60 fps games in 1080p.

So, what is your take on 1080p sets? Do you think I could pick up a 1080p set this year for under $3,000?

I've seen the Samsung HL-HR5668W, which is a 56" 1080p DLP set offered for pre-order prices as low as $3,300. That would make me confident that a set of similar quality in the 42" range should be very doable for under $3,000 before year's end.

LordGamer
07-13-2005, 10:05 AM
I've seen the Samsung HL-HR5668W, which is a 56" 1080p DLP set offered for pre-order prices as low as $3,300. That would make me confident that a set of similar quality in the 42" range should be very doable for under $3,000 before year's end.

Thanks again. I have decided.. I'm going to stick with the upcoming 42" from Sony...I can't wait any longer and if I get the 1080p bug later on, then I will sell my current setup and pick one up.

Also, I'm under the impression you need a larger screen to appreciate the 1080p resolution, i.e. 42" might actually be too small. All of the 1080p related sets I have read about were all being released in 50" or higher.

iserum
07-13-2005, 11:07 AM
intresting article on 1080 P programming

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/reality.htm

LordGamer
07-13-2005, 12:20 PM
intresting article on 1080 P programming

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/reality.htm

Very interesting. Good find.

fryet
07-14-2005, 11:48 AM
Interesting article, however I take exception with one thing that the author wrote. The author said that there would not be a 1080p set because there is no 1080p content for it. First off, it is my understanding that computers can generate 1080p content today, if you wanted to hook up your computer to your new TV screen. Second, you run into the chicken and the egg syndrome. Why make content if no TV can play it. It is certainly possible that the TVs will be made first, and the 1080p content will come later.

Having said all of that, if even half of what the article said was true, it does look like 1080p has a ways to go before all parts of the TV are truly capable of handling 1080p. I do know that we have heard a lot of talk recently about how the HDMI chips can't handle a 1080p/60 source, which is currently being fixed.

retorq
07-14-2005, 01:24 PM
I like it!! :D

Still think you’ve just gotta have that new 1080p RPTV? Wait until you see what standard definition analog TV and digital cable look like on it…

iserum
07-14-2005, 01:31 PM
if i have to pick one at same price i will pick 1080P but will not pay extra for it, it would take at least 5 -7 years to go to 1080p if if it will happen, broadcasting station are already asking FCC to increase the dtv switching to 2009......

RSawdey
07-14-2005, 04:21 PM
Although Putnum is usually pretty good, he's misunderstanding a few things here...

First, one can't discuss 1080p displays & signals without including the FRAMERATE (which may NOT be the same as refresh rate). The ATSC set of 18 standard formats already includes two 1080p modes, at 24 & 30 frames per second. The new displays are 1080p/60 (60 frames per second) so they can upconvert 1080i/30 by deinterlacing, double refresh 1080p/30, and scale 720p/60 preserving the progressive nature & 60 fps. First gen HDMI port chips couldn't handle 1080p/60, but they've been updated... RGB & Component work. The only current source of 1080p/60 signals is a PC (and 1 upconverting DVD). Since films are only shot at 24 fps, most BluRay & HD-DVD content will be 1080p/24... but at a bitrate of nearly double that of broadcast.

Also because of overlooking framerate, Putnum doesn't understand crossconversion via 540p... each FIELD of a 1080i/30 frame is 1920 x 540... this field is captured sequentially, then the other field is captured 1/60 of a second later & interleaved. Since we need to output 60 FRAMES per second for 720p/60, each FIELD of the 1080i/30 input is converted to a FRAME of 1280 x 720. This is done by scaling up the 540 lines to 720 (no dataloss with upscaling - the data is just spread out) and scaling down the 1920 (or 1440) to 1280 pixels (downscaling discards data). The horizontal resolution has been reduced by 1/3... but the temporal resolution has been doubled.

PFC5
07-14-2005, 05:22 PM
Although Putnum is usually pretty good, he's misunderstanding a few things here...

First, one can't discuss 1080p displays & signals without including the FRAMERATE (which may NOT be the same as refresh rate). The ATSC set of 18 standard formats already includes two 1080p modes, at 24 & 30 frames per second. The new displays are 1080p/60 (60 frames per second) so they can upconvert 1080i/30 by deinterlacing, double refresh 1080p/30, and scale 720p/60 preserving the progressive nature & 60 fps. First gen HDMI port chips couldn't handle 1080p/60, but they've been updated... RGB & Component work. The only current source of 1080p/60 signals is a PC (and 1 upconverting DVD). Since films are only shot at 24 fps, most BluRay & HD-DVD content will be 1080p/24... but at a bitrate of nearly double that of broadcast.

Also because of overlooking framerate, Putnum doesn't understand crossconversion via 540p... each FIELD of a 1080i/30 frame is 1920 x 540... this field is captured sequentially, then the other field is captured 1/60 of a second later & interleaved. Since we need to output 60 FRAMES per second for 720p/60, each FIELD of the 1080i/30 input is converted to a FRAME of 1280 x 720. This is done by scaling up the 540 lines to 720 (no dataloss with upscaling - the data is just spread out) and scaling down the 1920 (or 1440) to 1280 pixels (downscaling discards data). The horizontal resolution has been reduced by 1/3... but the temporal resolution has been doubled.

You have a wealth of info, thank you!

My question is about those first gen HDMI chips. How will we know if our TVs have the first gen or the second gen in them? It will be horrible if everyone has to get their TVs upgraded, and even worse if we cannot get them upgraded. When did they start using these 2nd gen HDMI chips?

LordGamer
07-15-2005, 06:55 AM
You have a wealth of info, thank you!

My question is about those first gen HDMI chips. How will we know if our TVs have the first gen or the second gen in them? It will be horrible if everyone has to get their TVs upgraded, and even worse if we cannot get them upgraded. When did they start using these 2nd gen HDMI chips?

Ahh, very true. Talk about being f-ed. I am going to assume all the newer sets (including my upcoming Sony "e" series 42") have the new chips.

xplode
07-15-2005, 10:41 AM
Ahh, very true. Talk about being f-ed. I am going to assume all the newer sets (including my upcoming Sony "e" series 42") have the new chips.

sadly i wouldnt think thats a "safe" assumtion... i would make sure before you shell out the $$$ for the tv... get the detailed specs on the set.. id hate to see a post about how your tv doesnt support it and your mad because of it.. (i wouldnt blame you).. just research it to be on the safe side.

LordGamer
07-15-2005, 11:56 AM
sadly i wouldnt think thats a "safe" assumtion... i would make sure before you shell out the $$$ for the tv... get the detailed specs on the set.. id hate to see a post about how your tv doesnt support it and your mad because of it.. (i wouldnt blame you).. just research it to be on the safe side.

Thanks for the advice...I checked, but then I realized it doesn't matter. My 42" doesn't support 1080p anyways.

PFC5
07-16-2005, 01:20 AM
Thanks for the advice...I checked, but then I realized it doesn't matter. My 42" doesn't support 1080p anyways.

That might be true, but why do I think it could cause compatibility problems when they come out with these gen2 HDMI chipsets. Either everything will move the compatibility to the gen2, or the gen2 won't work with a gen1 source or vice versa.

Why can't they get this stuff right BEFORE they release it?

Of couse THEN we would complain about why it takes so lonk for them to release the new "feature". :D

RSawdey
07-16-2005, 08:53 AM
There is no compatibility issue here, just as there is none with a mix of 1080i & 720p sets we now have. Sources will just add another output format option... we'll select between 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p.

PFC5
07-16-2005, 12:39 PM
There is no compatibility issue here, just as there is none with a mix of 1080i & 720p sets we now have. Sources will just add another output format option... we'll select between 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p.

I am talking about the handshake issues that ALREADY exist between equipment using HDMI/DVI. Now they will have the Gen2 HDMI that you spoke of which if history is repeated will only create MORE compatibility issues between gen1 & gen2.

When did they come out with this spec? Has it been released in any products yet?

Thanks for any info you have on this.