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Star Trek: The Next Generation Blu-ray

Kcgreatfox
05-07-2009, 01:03 PM
Anyone hoping they're going to release The Next Generation on Blu-ray??? I have a couple seasons on DVD, but I would definitely love to see a high definition release!

They released the original series on HD DVD and now on Blu-ray, so why not TNG? :confused:

While they're at it, it would also be nice to see DS9 and Voyager on Blu-ray, along with ALL the movies, not just the first 6 (especially First Contact!) :bowdown:

Has anyone heard any news about future releases? :what:

Stew4HD
05-07-2009, 01:21 PM
I want it too but heard we'll not see it.. something to do with special effects. I liked ST-NG a lot.

MikeRox
05-07-2009, 01:39 PM
I want it too but heard we'll not see it.. something to do with special effects. I liked ST-NG a lot.

Tbh, I don't think special effects will stop em in the long run. Chances are they'd do as some other studios have and just upscale the SD content and slap the upscale on a disc as high definition.

Stew4HD
05-07-2009, 01:41 PM
Tbh, I don't think special effects will stop em in the long run. Chances are they'd do as some other studios have and just upscale the SD content and slap the upscale on a disc as high definition.

If that is all they do, then I'd just as soon get the SD set and let my player upscale it.. unless they can offer something extra to make me want it on BD

HD Goofnut
05-07-2009, 02:24 PM
I would so buy all 7 seasons of TNG. It was definitely the best Star Trek series other than the original series.

Dare
05-07-2009, 04:48 PM
The film elements could be transferred to HD, but all of the special effects were created on SD video, sometimes at a different frame rate than the film elements. That means NTSC SD video is TNG's native format. I'm afraid the existing DVDs are the best you're ever going to get.

Bitch at the producers who had no concept of future-proofing.

rcoleman11
05-07-2009, 05:07 PM
Since the original Star Trek series is being released on Blu-ray, you can bet TNG will get a Blu-ray release as well.

rcoleman11
05-07-2009, 05:09 PM
The film elements could be transferred to HD, but all of the special effects were created on SD video, sometimes at a different frame rate than the film elements. That means NTSC SD video is TNG's native format. I'm afraid the existing DVDs are the best you're ever going to get.

Bitch at the producers who had no concept of future-proofing.

That didn't prevent the original Star Trek series from the 1960s from making it to Blu-ray. In fact, the special effects have been enhanced for the Blu-ray release.

Lee Stewart
05-07-2009, 06:05 PM
That didn't prevent the original Star Trek series from the 1960s from making it to Blu-ray. In fact, the special effects have been enhanced for the Blu-ray release.

ALL the footage from TOS is filmed on 35mm. Not the same. As Dare said - all the special effects were done on Beta-Cam - 480i

rcoleman11
05-07-2009, 06:31 PM
ALL the footage from TOS is filmed on 35mm. Not the same. As Dare said - all the special effects were done on Beta-Cam - 480i

The special effects in the original series were redone for the Blu-ray release. Watch any of the episodes and you will see that they are completely different. The same will happen for TNG. Doesn't matter how it was done originally. If TOS is successful on Blu-ray, TNG will make it to Blu-ray as well. You can take that to the bank.

Lee Stewart
05-07-2009, 09:08 PM
The special effects in the original series were redone for the Blu-ray release. Watch any of the episodes and you will see that they are completely different. The same will happen for TNG. Doesn't matter how it was done originally. If TOS is successful on Blu-ray, TNG will make it to Blu-ray as well. You can take that to the bank.

You are not reconigizing the issues at hand:

1. the amount of special effects in TOS were very limited. And again - all the SF's were recorded on 35mm film which has a higher resolution than HD.

2. the amount of SF's in TNG were very plentiful. They are working with a resolution of 480i. They literally would have to re do every episode from scratch. Only the live action is recorded on 35mm film.

What they did for TOS is scan the 35mm elements to create a digital intermediate. Once the high res images are now digital - then they start to change them. They are all in a res that is equal to or greater than HD.

You can't do that with 480i videotape.

Dare
05-08-2009, 02:43 AM
There's another issue. TNG was edited on video after 3:2 pulldown was applied, so there is no valid 24p cut. They would have to go all the way back to the original elements, assuming they still exist, and rebuild the episodes from scratch. All of the post-production would have to be done over again, not just the effects. Even the credits. That's an awful lot of money to spend. Transferring TOS to HD was way easier. All the editing was done on film, and each episode had a grand total of maybe twenty seconds of effects, with lots of recycling. All TV shows finished on film will be easier to transfer to HD than shows finished on video.

Nikopol
05-08-2009, 03:08 AM
As Mike said: As time goes on, we will simply see (SD) TV shows released as upconverts on Blu-ray. I already have both seasons of Life on Mars (UK original) like this, even says so on the box.

Imo huge franchises like TNG will have a life in the HD world at some point, especially for HD broadcast. I guess as HD catches on more and more, there will be an process to easily port productions like this at least to quasi-HD, though there will be compromises if only for financial reasons. It will be up to the consumer to take it or leave it. Where is SRT when you REALLY need it? :lol:

rcoleman11
05-08-2009, 03:09 AM
Well, I guess we'll see.

rcoleman11
05-08-2009, 03:37 AM
2. the amount of SF's in TNG were very plentiful. They are working with a resolution of 480i. They literally would have to re do every episode from scratch. Only the live action is recorded on 35mm film.


I'll have to go back and watch an episode of TNG. It's been a while since I've seen any episodes of that show, but I seem to recall that most of the scenes were live action, not special effects scenes.

Lee Stewart
05-08-2009, 05:22 AM
As Mike said: As time goes on, we will simply see (SD) TV shows released as upconverts on Blu-ray. I already have both seasons of Life on Mars (UK original) like this, even says so on the box.

Imo huge franchises like TNG will have a life in the HD world at some point, especially for HD broadcast. I guess as HD catches on more and more, there will be an process to easily port productions like this at least to quasi-HD, though there will be compromises if only for financial reasons. It will be up to the consumer to take it or leave it. Where is SRT when you REALLY need it? :lol:

ST TNG is broadcast on the SciFi HD channel . . .

4x3 pillarbox:(

Nikopol
05-08-2009, 05:32 AM
How would you say it looks regarding resolution/detail?

Lee Stewart
05-08-2009, 05:48 AM
How would you say it looks regarding resolution/detail?

Fine - like all NTSC shows that are shown on a HD channel in pillarbox

Nikopol
05-08-2009, 05:51 AM
Pillarbox here meaning black bars on the side and a vertical resolution of 1080i (or 720p), right?

Lee Stewart
05-08-2009, 06:00 AM
Pillarbox here meaning black bars on the side and a vertical resolution of 1080i (or 720p), right?

Correct - VR is 1080i as that is Sci-Fi's choosen HD resolution.

The only providers using 720P are:

ESPN
ABC
Fox

It doesn't look like native HD. Looks like NTSC UP'd to HD

Nikopol
05-08-2009, 06:04 AM
thanks, that's what i wanted to know. :)

Lee Stewart
05-08-2009, 06:18 AM
Another issue that will be problematic for getting TNG to HD is the aspect ratio.

The live action may have been filmed for 4x3 with a protect zone for 16x9, but the special effects would have been rendered for 4x3. That is the nature of rendered SF's. They use the AR that the content is presented in be it on TV or the theater. It is an issue of cost.

This issue has shown up in the past when they filmed in Super 35 but had the desired AR in the theater at 2.40. The SF's would be 2.40, so when they open the matte from 2.40 to say 1.78 - the SF's have to be cropped/zoomed to 1.78

Stew4HD
05-08-2009, 06:31 AM
Another issue that will be problematic for getting TNG to HD is the aspect ratio.

The live action may have been filmed for 4x3 with a protect zone for 16x9, but the special effects would have been rendered for 4x3. That is the nature of rendered SF's. They use the AR that the content is presented in be it on TV or the theater. It is an issue of cost.

This issue has shown up in the past when they filmed in Super 35 but had the desired AR in the theater at 2.40. The SF's would be 2.40, so when they open the matte from 2.40 to say 1.78 - the SF's have to be cropped/zoomed to 1.78

Thanks for the info Lee! It's sad that we will probably never see this series in full widescreen glory. It won't kill me to see it pillarboxed though.. will one day be sort of nostalgic :D

Lee Stewart
05-08-2009, 07:01 AM
It really is a shame especially as TNG was a cutting edge TV show. It ran from 87 to 94.

And during that time the Grand Alliance was formed and ratified (90) for the creation of HDTV.

So the producers of TNG knew that HDTV was coming - but they didn't produce the show for future use in HD.

Kosty
05-08-2009, 08:40 AM
I was told by the guys who did some of the TOS work that TNG is indeed a completely different situation as all the SFX were 4:3 and were digital on standard definition.

Best results are looking at TNG on a good upconverting DVD player as thats as good as the studio can do and there is no reason to spend the money for a Blu-ray remastering.

Long discussion on The Digital Bits came to the same conclusion.

But blaming the studio for not future proofing is a bit harsh. It was 20-23 years ago for the baseline imagery and the SFX was an expensive part of the show and its TV budget and time pressure for ongoing TV series production. All in all, I think they did pretty well for the time.

Lee Stewart
05-08-2009, 09:08 AM
I was told by the guys who did some of the TOS work that TNG is indeed a completely different situation as all the SFX were 4:3 and were digital on standard definition.

Best results are looking at TNG on a good upconverting DVD player as thats as good as the studio can do and there is no reason to spend the money for a Blu-ray remastering.

Long discussion on The Digital Bits came to the same conclusion.

But blaming the studio for not future proofing is a bit harsh. It was 20-23 years ago for the baseline imagery and the SFX was an expensive part of the show and its TV budget and time pressure for ongoing TV series production. All in all, I think they did pretty well for the time.

They knew HDTV was coming. They could have switched production after 1990 to be prepared for it. Many TV shows did this. TNG was a VERY popular show and won many awards during it run.

rcoleman11
05-08-2009, 12:04 PM
Another issue that will be problematic for getting TNG to HD is the aspect ratio.

The live action may have been filmed for 4x3 with a protect zone for 16x9, but the special effects would have been rendered for 4x3. That is the nature of rendered SF's. They use the AR that the content is presented in be it on TV or the theater. It is an issue of cost.

This issue has shown up in the past when they filmed in Super 35 but had the desired AR in the theater at 2.40. The SF's would be 2.40, so when they open the matte from 2.40 to say 1.78 - the SF's have to be cropped/zoomed to 1.78

The aspect ratio is an issue, but it isn't surmountable. I think most TNG fans would be happy to see the show make it to HD in a 4:3 ratio.

A lot of older movies were not shot in a wide aspect ratio, either. That's why the black bars appear on the sides when they are transferred to HD video to show on TV. Let's just be glad they don't crop them to make them 16:9.

And a lot TV shows were filmed in a wider aspect ratio than 4:3. I watched some episodes of "Wiseguy" when it was showing on HDNet and compared some frames from the 16:9 display to the 4:3 that was used on standard-def DVDs. The picture was cropped slightly at the top and bottom to fit the 16:9 display, but there was more of the video visible on the sides that couldn't be seen in the 4:3 DVDs.

Thanks for the info on SciFi showing TNG. I'll check an episode to see how much of it is special effects and how much is live action. I'm betting there's a lot more live action than you think there is.

Dare
05-08-2009, 02:02 PM
Another issue that will be problematic for getting TNG to HD is the aspect ratio.

The live action may have been filmed for 4x3 with a protect zone for 16x9, but the special effects would have been rendered for 4x3. That is the nature of rendered SF's. They use the AR that the content is presented in be it on TV or the theater. It is an issue of cost.

This issue has shown up in the past when they filmed in Super 35 but had the desired AR in the theater at 2.40. The SF's would be 2.40, so when they open the matte from 2.40 to say 1.78 - the SF's have to be cropped/zoomed to 1.78

The special effects still had to respect safe title and safe action, just like the live action footage did. So I don't think that's an issue.

There's an easy way to verify. Dust off the DVD and peek.

Dare
05-08-2009, 02:38 PM
I was told by the guys who did some of the TOS work that TNG is indeed a completely different situation as all the SFX were 4:3 and were digital on standard definition.

Best results are looking at TNG on a good upconverting DVD player as thats as good as the studio can do and there is no reason to spend the money for a Blu-ray remastering.

Long discussion on The Digital Bits came to the same conclusion.

But blaming the studio for not future proofing is a bit harsh. It was 20-23 years ago for the baseline imagery and the SFX was an expensive part of the show and its TV budget and time pressure for ongoing TV series production. All in all, I think they did pretty well for the time.

Way back in olden times, shows were sometimes delivered to TV stations on film, especially for syndication. Those are the shows that can easily be transferred to HD. They were future-proofed, even if it might have been inadvertently.

There are some simple steps they could have taken to be better prepared for future formats without adding expense. They could have edited on film, or at least in 24p video format, and applied 3-2 pulldown as a final step before broadcast. As it is, the pulldown pattern changes every time there's a cut, which is an issue as old as television. The effects didn't have to be rendered at film resolution, but if they were always done in 24p instead of sometimes 30i superimposed on 3-2 pulldown footage, they would have been able to do something with it. At the very least, they could have stored the source files and elements that went into creating the effects in case the opportunity to rerender them later ever came up. (Babylon 5's ass was bitten by this)

There are other benefits to finishing in 24p, like cleaner PAL conversions. But considering the other sloppiness, they would have been better off speeding up their film cameras to 30fps and just doing the whole show in 30p. Unfortunately that never occurred to anybody.

I think they absolutely can be blamed for not thinking about future proofing. Lucille Ball insisted that I Love Lucy be shot on film, because she had future formats in mind. And she was right. Look at The Honeymooners, which is just about as old, but looks horrible because it only exists on kinescope. I Love Lucy could be released in HD. So if future proofing didn't occur to not just producers of TNG, but to all non-network TV producers of the day, then I think they deserve some blame.

Dare
05-08-2009, 02:58 PM
The aspect ratio is an issue, but it isn't surmountable. I think most TNG fans would be happy to see the show make it to HD in a 4:3 ratio.

A lot of older movies were not shot in a wide aspect ratio, either. That's why the black bars appear on the sides when they are transferred to HD video to show on TV. Let's just be glad they don't crop them to make them 16:9.

And a lot TV shows were filmed in a wider aspect ratio than 4:3. I watched some episodes of "Wiseguy" when it was showing on HDNet and compared some frames from the 16:9 display to the 4:3 that was used on standard-def DVDs. The picture was cropped slightly at the top and bottom to fit the 16:9 display, but there was more of the video visible on the sides that couldn't be seen in the 4:3 DVDs.


That's the benefit of safe areas. All older TV shows were shot with wide margins around the image to compensate for CRT overscan. DVDs are often zoomed in a little to crop off a bit of the area outside safe title, because modern CRTs don't overscan so severely and aren't an issue for DVDs (and besides, who has an SD CRT anymore? :D ), so that's what you're seeing. But if they zoom out the transfer so that every bit of the margin is visible, almost all of safe action is inside the 16x9 crop. In that case, you would lose a bit of the top and bottom padding and gain a little bit on the sides, compared to the 4x3 DVD transfer. Even when the show was first broadcast, most people with their old-fashioned overscanning CRTs would have seen less on their screens than what you see on your DVD.

If you look at modern TV shows, there's no such thing as safe title and safe action anymore. The visual composition goes right up to the razor's edge of the frame. When broadcasting them in SD, they usually present them letterboxed, to give them a safe area for older screens.

iDarren
05-08-2009, 03:28 PM
Surely the proper AR for ST:TNG would be 4x3.

Lee Stewart
05-08-2009, 03:30 PM
Surely the proper AR for ST:TNG would be 4x3.

Correct - though many had hoped that it would somehow be presented in 1.78 which from the discussion does not look good.

Lee Stewart
05-08-2009, 07:44 PM
Older TV Shows on Blu-ray

Q: What is the feasibility of old popular television shows, whose special effects shots were mastered in SD, possibly seeing a Blu-ray release? I'm a huge 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' fan and would love to see an eventual Blu-ray release, as the DVDs are quite grainy and unpleasant-looking on an HDTV. I realized the show's special effects were created in SD to save money, so I was wondering if there is any chance at all if we'd see some of these older television series receive a Blu-ray release?

A: The Blu-ray release of 'Firefly' is perhaps the textbook example of what you're asking. Just like 'Buffy', 'Firefly' was shot on film, but had all visual effects rendered in standard-def resolution due to budgetary issues. On the Blu-ray, all of the live action shots without VFX are presented in true 1080p high-def. However, as soon as a CGI element enters a scene, the entire shot containing it drops to upconverted SD quality. Throughout the show, the video jumps from HD to upconverted SD and back over and over again. It's certainly not ideal, but it is possible to release the show on Blu-ray.

With that said, other factors will come into play. Although the 'Firefly' VFX were only rendered in SD, the rest of the show was edited and post-produced in an HD environment. So, an HD resolution master existed for the final product. That isn't necessarily the case for some older shows. For example, 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' was also shot on film, but was post-produced on SD video. Its final master exists only in standard-def form. In order to prepare a new HD master for the series, the studio would have to dig up the original film elements and completely re-edit and post-produce every single episode from scratch. It's a time-consuming and expensive process. Reportedly, Paramount is currently investigating the feasibility of doing that for 'Star Trek: TNG', because they know that the show has an enormous fan base. I wouldn't expect that kind of commitment for many series.

Regarding 'Buffy' specifically, the first two seasons were shot on grainy 16mm film stock. The show had a budget increase and a switch to 35mm film in its third season. I'm not certain how post production was handled, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was done in SD. The spin-off series 'Angel' was actually broadcast in HD during its final season. (Just like 'Firefly', the video dropped to SD during VFX shots.) Unfortunately, I have a feeling that's probably the only season of the Buffyverse that exists in HD form.

Grrrrrr... Arrggghhh... indeed, right?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/HD_Advisor/HD_Advisor_the_13th/2781

Dare
05-10-2009, 12:46 PM
That's pretty much what I thought regarding TNG.

Stargate SG-1 is in the same boat. Most of it was finished on video, and some seasons were even shot on SD video. However, seasons 8, 9, and 10 were produced and finished in HD, so those seasons would benefit from a Blu-ray release.

All 5 seasons of Stargate Atlantis is in HD, and no doubt the upcoming Stargate Universe will be too.

HD Goofnut
05-10-2009, 02:16 PM
That's pretty much what I thought regarding TNG.

Stargate SG-1 is in the same boat. Most of it was finished on video, and some seasons were even shot on SD video. However, seasons 8, 9, and 10 were produced and finished in HD, so those seasons would benefit from a Blu-ray release.

All 5 seasons of Stargate Atlantis is in HD, and no doubt the upcoming Stargate Universe will be too.

In my opinion Stargate got really dumb after about season 5 of SG-1.

dangerdoc
05-10-2009, 03:54 PM
That's pretty much what I thought regarding TNG.

Stargate SG-1 is in the same boat. Most of it was finished on video, and some seasons were even shot on SD video. However, seasons 8, 9, and 10 were produced and finished in HD, so those seasons would benefit from a Blu-ray release.

All 5 seasons of Stargate Atlantis is in HD, and no doubt the upcoming Stargate Universe will be too.

The first seasons were shot on 16mm film, not video. As the show bacame more popular and the budget increased, they switched to 35mm film in season 3 IRCC. The series concluded in HD video.

I don't know what at what resolution the CGI special effects were created but the live action is all either film or HD video.

Dare
05-10-2009, 10:23 PM
The first seasons were shot on 16mm film, not video. As the show bacame more popular and the budget increased, they switched to 35mm film in season 3 IRCC. The series concluded in HD video.

I don't know what at what resolution the CGI special effects were created but the live action is all either film or HD video.

Actually some of it was shot on SD video. I don't remember specifically, but I think it was in season 5 or 6. The SD video was a cost-cutting move, but fortunately they didn't stick with it. Finally in season 8 they started shooting on HD video and finishing in HD. All of the effects before that were rendered in SD. During the decade it was on the air, they experimented with shooting on just about every standard format.

Kcgreatfox
05-11-2009, 05:14 AM
Older TV Shows on Blu-ray



http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/HD_Advisor/HD_Advisor_the_13th/2781

I wouldn't mind if they just unconverted the SD stuff... At least most of it would be in HD! :yippee:

dangerdoc
05-11-2009, 06:32 AM
Actually some of it was shot on SD video. I don't remember specifically, but I think it was in season 5 or 6. The SD video was a cost-cutting move, but fortunately they didn't stick with it. Finally in season 8 they started shooting on HD video and finishing in HD. All of the effects before that were rendered in SD. During the decade it was on the air, they experimented with shooting on just about every standard format.

I have all 10 seasons on DVD. I've at one time or the other listened to all the commentary. The early seasons in 16mm are obvious with very grainy transfers. Once they went to 35mm the DVD quality is very good. I have no reason not to believe you but the SD video quality must be very good because I don't recall any later episodes that jump out as being lower quality than the 35mm or HD video transfers.

I agree with the other poster, I hope they release the series on BD. Even if some of the episodes are upconverted, on whole, it would be better than DVD.

gallandro
05-12-2009, 05:19 PM
I highly doubt TNG will ever see the light of day on Blu-Ray. As was posted in the article Lee linked to, Paramount would need to find the original camera negatives of each episode (a daunting task to be sure), scan them in. The they would have to completely re-edit each episode from scratch, then incorporate new effect shots.

It would ultimately cost more money to do this than the original productions cost. It's a money losing game and Paramount is one of the few studios that is doing fairly well fiscally, mainly because of their good business decisions over the last couple of years.


Yancy

gallandro
05-12-2009, 05:21 PM
I wouldn't mind if they just unconverted the SD stuff... At least most of it would be in HD! :yippee:

It wouldn't be in HD... it's a 480i source. It wouldn't look much better than throwing the original DVD releases in an upscaling DVD player. The original film doesn't really exist in a state to be upscaled. Early seasons of the show were edited on video. The film was scanned in and merged with the effect elements. In fact a lot of Season 1 & 2 FX shots were composited on Video Toaster (no different than what your local news station does when they show your local weatherman standing in front of his map).


Yancy

dangerdoc
05-12-2009, 08:10 PM
It wouldn't be in HD... it's a 480i source. It wouldn't look much better than throwing the original DVD releases in an upscaling DVD player. The original film doesn't really exist in a state to be upscaled. Early seasons of the show were edited on video. The film was scanned in and merged with the effect elements. In fact a lot of Season 1 & 2 FX shots were composited on Video Toaster (no different than what your local news station does when they show your local weatherman standing in front of his map).


Yancy

Are you talking about SG1 or ST TNG?

ClashFan
05-12-2009, 08:23 PM
In my opinion Stargate got really dumb after about season 5 of SG-1.

I agree. Kind of like X-Files around season 5 or 6, too.

HD Goofnut
05-12-2009, 08:26 PM
I agree. Kind of like X-Files around season 5 or 6, too.

Oh yeah, X-Files was another show that should have stopped after season 4 or 5. I saw where the Grudge 3 was coming out soon and I thought the first Grude film was bad enough. Oh and don't forget the Saw franchise catastrophe; the first was decent and they just got worse.

gallandro
05-12-2009, 08:31 PM
are you talking about sg1 or st tng?

st tng

Kosty
05-13-2009, 10:40 AM
jumping the shark is a real possibility as time goes on on some of these series

Raul2106
05-13-2009, 02:39 PM
I think Paramount will just leave Next Generation on DVD because of the cost of having to redo all the post production/SFX work episode by episode. If we do see an HD release of Next Generation I think it will be upconverted SD with some HD bonus features. Not enough to entice those of us who already own all the seasons on DVD.

Kcgreatfox
05-13-2009, 06:51 PM
I think Paramount will just leave Next Generation on DVD because of the cost of having to redo all the post production/SFX work episode by episode. If we do see an HD release of Next Generation I think it will be upconverted SD with some HD bonus features. Not enough to entice those of us who already own all the seasons on DVD.

You never know. With the success of the new movie, demand for Star Trek stuff might justify working on a Blu-ray release...

I actually only own two seasons of TNG, and want to hold off on getting any more for a while to see if any news about a Blu-ray release surfaces.

But if they do release it on Blu-ray, they'll obviously start with season one, which kinda sucks. I personally think seasons one and two are only OK. It gets REALLY good starting with season 3 (so I'd have to wait a while before any of the seasons I want are released) :mad:

HD Goofnut
05-13-2009, 07:02 PM
You never know. With the success of the new movie, demand for Star Trek stuff might justify working on a Blu-ray release...

I actually only own two seasons of TNG, and want to hold off on getting any more for a while to see if any news about a Blu-ray release surfaces.

But if they do release it on Blu-ray, they'll obviously start with season one, which kinda sucks. I personally think seasons one and two are only OK. It gets REALLY good starting with season 3 (so I'd have to wait a while before any of the seasons I want are released) :mad:

I agree. Once Tasha Yar gets killed and Worf takes her place it starts to get a little better. It gets even better when Geordi moves from helm to engineering.

Kcgreatfox
05-14-2009, 03:14 PM
I agree. Once Tasha Yar gets killed and Worf takes her place it starts to get a little better. It gets even better when Geordi moves from helm to engineering.

EXACTLY!!! Things just aren't the same without Geordi in engineering and Worf as the tactical officer and chief of security

HD Goofnut
05-14-2009, 04:39 PM
EXACTLY!!! Things just aren't the same without Geordi in engineering and Worf as the tactical officer and chief of security

I agree. I also felt that when Jonathan Frakes started sporting a beard in the middle of season 2 that his role was finally starting to broaden.

Dare
05-16-2009, 12:51 AM
You never know. With the success of the new movie, demand for Star Trek stuff might justify working on a Blu-ray release...

I actually only own two seasons of TNG, and want to hold off on getting any more for a while to see if any news about a Blu-ray release surfaces.

But if they do release it on Blu-ray, they'll obviously start with season one, which kinda sucks. I personally think seasons one and two are only OK. It gets REALLY good starting with season 3 (so I'd have to wait a while before any of the seasons I want are released) :mad:

This would be one Blu-ray release that won't be sneaking up on anybody. Remaking the show in HD would be a full-blown production, and would most likely be aired on TV one episode per week, as was done with the original series. This would be a seriously huge deal, and would take years to complete. It would be a much larger and more expensive effort than the original was.

I'd say go ahead and get the DVDs if you like the show. It's gonna be a long wait before you see it in HD, if ever.

Kosty
05-16-2009, 11:30 AM
TNG also had pretty good DVD transfers and modern SFX unlike the TOS versions that were out there. With a good upconverter you do not miss as much and its not as big a jump up in quality as the high definition TOS box sets are.

Dare
05-16-2009, 12:36 PM
Weeeeellllll..... TNG's effects look pretty dated now. With the exception of a few occasional sneezes, I think Stargate Atlantis and Battlestar Galactica comfortably surpassed it. Maybe if they did remake TNG, they could spruce it up a little while they're at it. :D

HD Goofnut
05-16-2009, 02:07 PM
Weeeeellllll..... TNG's effects look pretty dated now. With the exception of a few occasional sneezes, I think Stargate Atlantis and Battlestar Galactica comfortably surpassed it. Maybe if they did remake TNG, they could spruce it up a little while they're at it. :D

Yeah, and Brent Spiner could still play Dr. Sunn since he is too old to play Data anymore.

kamspy
05-16-2009, 03:26 PM
TNG invented the iPhone.

True story.

Dare
05-17-2009, 04:19 AM
Yeah, and Brent Spiner could still play Dr. Sunn since he is too old to play Data anymore.

No need for that, they still have the original camera footage (I hope). Although if Brent wanted to go back and reshoot the Soong parts without the old-man makeup, I'm sure they would let him. :D

rcoleman11
05-17-2009, 01:19 PM
2. the amount of SF's in TNG were very plentiful. They are working with a resolution of 480i. They literally would have to re do every episode from scratch. Only the live action is recorded on 35mm film.


I recorded an episode of TNG and extracted all of the special effects scenes into a single clip. The length: approximately one minute out of the entire episode ("The Bonding"), not including the credits. The rest was live action. Those special effects scenes will be re-created just as they were for TOS.

Lee Stewart
05-17-2009, 01:41 PM
I recorded an episode of TNG and extracted all of the special effects scenes into a single clip. The length: approximately one minute out of the entire episode ("The Bonding"), not including the credits. The rest was live action. Those special effects scenes will be re-created just as they were for TOS.

That's one episode. Now do it for the 7 seasons - ALL 178 episodes.;)

rcoleman11
05-17-2009, 02:14 PM
That's one episode. Now do it for the 7 seasons - ALL 178 episodes.;)

Yeah, right, spend all my time on this just to prove a point. :) I picked an episode at random - it was the first one on the schedule. If anyone has evidence that this isn't representative of the entire series, they can feel free to present it. What I saw in that episode jibes with what I remember of the series - most of the footage was live action, with an occasional special effects scene. My money is on this show getting a Blu-ray release.

Lee Stewart
05-17-2009, 02:34 PM
Some interesting trivia abot ST TNG:

http://stng.36el.com/st-tng/trivia/did-you-know.html

kamspy
05-17-2009, 02:41 PM
You know what I would be happy with?

Cramming every single episode in 480p onto a couple BD50s. Wouldn't it be great to have all that content on just a few discs?

I wish more TV series were actually done like this, but that would make too much sense, and the studios wouldn't be able to charge and arm and a leg because it's not a 13 disc uber set. :/

Kcgreatfox
05-17-2009, 05:17 PM
You know what I would be happy with?

Cramming every single episode in 480p onto a couple BD50s. Wouldn't it be great to have all that content on just a few discs?

I wish more TV series were actually done like this, but that would make too much sense, and the studios wouldn't be able to charge and arm and a leg because it's not a 13 disc uber set. :/

That would also be cool! I believe they could fit nearly an entire season on a single disc...

dangerdoc
05-17-2009, 05:18 PM
You know what I would be happy with?

Cramming every single episode in 480p onto a couple BD50s. Wouldn't it be great to have all that content on just a few discs?

I wish more TV series were actually done like this, but that would make too much sense, and the studios wouldn't be able to charge and arm and a leg because it's not a 13 disc uber set. :/

A little like putting Divx episodes on a DVD DL. Nobody would be interested in having and entire season on one disc. That's just crazy talk.

Kcgreatfox
05-17-2009, 05:20 PM
Some interesting trivia abot ST TNG:

http://stng.36el.com/st-tng/trivia/did-you-know.html

very interesting!

Dare
05-17-2009, 08:00 PM
I recorded an episode of TNG and extracted all of the special effects scenes into a single clip. The length: approximately one minute out of the entire episode ("The Bonding"), not including the credits. The rest was live action. Those special effects scenes will be re-created just as they were for TOS.

I'm surprised there was that much. I expected half that. But more important than the number of seconds the effects lasted for is how many effects shots there were. There could be one 60-second shot of one matte painting, or there could be 120 15-frame shots. Which do you suppose would take more effort to recreate? So how many effects shots were in this random episode?

60 seconds is a huge amount of screen time for special effects. That's the equivalent of two effects-laden commercials. Do you know how much they spend on those things? Then they would have to spend that money 178 times. (Many of which certainly have more effects than The Bonding, which if I remember correctly is a talking heads episode that was a bit light on effects.)

But you're also forgetting the editing. The only thing that exists on film are separate individual shots that have never been edited together. Those shots have to be re-assembled into the complete episodes.

When we say post-production has to be redone, that means ALL of the post production, from scratch. That means every single thing they have to do after the raw negative dries. Post involves so much more than just the effects.

We already know recreating TNG in HD will be a greater effort than TOS was. The question is, did Paramount benefit from the TOS HD, or are they still trying to make their money back? That more than anything will determine whether there will be a TNG HD.

rcoleman11
05-17-2009, 08:14 PM
I'm surprised there was that much. I expected half that. But more important than the number of seconds the effects lasted for is how many effects shots there were. There could be one 60-second shot of one matte painting, or there could be 120 15-frame shots. Which do you suppose would take more effort to recreate? So how many effects shots were in this random episode?

60 seconds is a huge amount of screen time for special effects. That's the equivalent of two effects-laden commercials. Do you know how much they spend on those things? Then they would have to spend that money 178 times. (Many of which certainly have more effects than The Bonding, which if I remember correctly is a talking heads episode that was a bit light on effects.)

But you're also forgetting the editing. The only thing that exists on film are separate individual shots that have never been edited together. Those shots have to be re-assembled into the complete episode.

When we say post-production has to be redone, that means ALL of the post production, from scratch. That means every single thing they have to do after the raw negative dries. Post involves so much more than just the effects.

We already know recreating TNG in HD will be a greater effort than TOS was. The question is, did Paramount benefit from the TOS HD, or are they still trying to make their money back? That more than anything will determine whether there will be a TNG HD.

There were about 6 or seven special effects scenes. Most of those are scenes of the Enterprise flying through space, which would be used across multiple episodes.

A minute of special effects footage out of a 42-minute episode isn't huge no matter how you slice it. Do the same test with an episode of TOS and you'll find it's about the same. The reason stated previously in this thread that nearly every scene would have to be re-shot is simply not true. Most of the scenes are live action and were shot on film, it's as simple as that.

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince, but there just isn't any substance to the claim that it would be a greater undertaking to release these episodes in HD. If the original film is available, which is likely, it can be done. It's just a matter of whether Paramount believes it will generate sufficient revenue to justify a separate release. Since this is a Star Trek series, the answer to that is pretty clear.

Lee Stewart
05-17-2009, 08:24 PM
There were about 6 or seven special effects scenes. Most of those are scenes of the Enterprise flying through space, which would be used across multiple episodes.

A minute of special effects footage out of a 42-minute episode isn't huge no matter how you slice it. Do the same test with an episode of TOS and you'll find it's about the same. The reason stated previously in this thread that nearly every scene would have to be re-shot is simply not true. Most of the scenes are live action and were shot on film, it's as simple as that.

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince, but there just isn't any substance to the claim that it would be a greater undertaking to release these episodes in HD. If the original film is available, which is likely, it can be done. It's just a matter of whether Paramount believes it will generate sufficient revenue to justify a separate release. Since this is a Star Trek series, the answer to that is pretty clear.

Only according to you.;)

And speaking of the filmed parts - what is the aspect ratio? It's 4x3. Look at the framing of the shots, then envision chopping off the top or bottom (or both of the frame) to get a 16x9 frame (an HD AR). Or are you advocating a 4x3 pillarboxed image like TOS?

iDarren
05-17-2009, 08:25 PM
You know what I would be happy with?

Cramming every single episode in 480p onto a couple BD50s. Wouldn't it be great to have all that content on just a few discs?

I wish more TV series were actually done like this, but that would make too much sense, and the studios wouldn't be able to charge and arm and a leg because it's not a 13 disc uber set. :/

This is something I've talked about since the release of BD and HD DVD. It would be GREAT!

HD Goofnut
05-17-2009, 08:55 PM
This is something I've talked about since the release of BD and HD DVD. It would be GREAT!

That was my beef with Band of Brothers on BD. Couldn't they have put more than 2 episodes on 1 disc?

rcoleman11
05-17-2009, 10:19 PM
Only according to you.;)

And speaking of the filmed parts - what is the aspect ratio? It's 4x3. Look at the framing of the shots, then envision chopping off the top or bottom (or both of the frame) to get a 16x9 frame (an HD AR). Or are you advocating a 4x3 pillarboxed image like TOS?

According to the facts, not just me. You're the one who made the preposterous claim that nearly scene of TNG would have to be reshot, not me. It's always a good idea to check the facts. And yes, a 4:3 aspect ratio would be fine, just as it is with TOS. There are lots of older movies that weren't shot in a wide aspect ratio. Nobody expects to see them in widescreen format when then are transferred to HD video.

Dare
05-18-2009, 11:29 AM
A minute of special effects footage out of a 42-minute episode isn't huge no matter how you slice it. Do the same test with an episode of TOS and you'll find it's about the same. The reason stated previously in this thread that nearly every scene would have to be re-shot is simply not true. Most of the scenes are live action and were shot on film, it's as simple as that.

I'm not sure who you're trying to convince, but there just isn't any substance to the claim that it would be a greater undertaking to release these episodes in HD. If the original film is available, which is likely, it can be done. It's just a matter of whether Paramount believes it will generate sufficient revenue to justify a separate release. Since this is a Star Trek series, the answer to that is pretty clear.

Nobody ever said every scene would have to be reshot. I have said repeatedly that they do have all of the camera footage on film. They have it. Reshooting the live action doesn't exist as a problem.

But the existing shots that they do already have will still have to be edited into the complete episodes. That assembly was never done on film.

You seem determined to not acknowledge the effort and expense that recreating the show in HD would be. No, they don't have to reshoot scenes, but that doesn't mean the redone post-production cycle will be free. If you're just going to cross your arms and stamp your feet about it, I don't know what to tell you. You sound like I'm trying to talk you out of converting TNG to HD yourself. lol... I'm simply trying to explain to you why you shouldn't hold your breath for a Blu-ray. You'll turn bluer than the ray. :D

Dare
05-18-2009, 11:34 AM
Only according to you.;)

And speaking of the filmed parts - what is the aspect ratio? It's 4x3. Look at the framing of the shots, then envision chopping off the top or bottom (or both of the frame) to get a 16x9 frame (an HD AR). Or are you advocating a 4x3 pillarboxed image like TOS?

Safe action/safe title.

Did you know some effects shots were filmed in anamorphic 2.35, with the deliberate intention of panning across the frame?

Lee Stewart
05-18-2009, 12:47 PM
Safe action/safe title.

Did you know some effects shots were filmed in anamorphic 2.35, with the deliberate intention of panning across the frame?

No I didn't know that.

kamspy
05-18-2009, 02:10 PM
ITT: We find out Dare has a massive crush on Counselor Troi.

Dare
05-18-2009, 02:33 PM
ITT: We find out Dare has a massive crush on Counselor Troi.

I do. lol

Here's a collection of special effects shots from the episode "Borgasms". ;-)

Warning: it's 4.5 minutes long. I omitted titles and recyclable shots like Enterprise flybys to get it down to that length. I also didn't include shots with funny color timing effects, even though the original film wouldn't look that way and the effect would have to be replicated.

Everything in this excerpt has at least one element that doesn't exist on the original film. Although the source film elements should still exist, these finished shots as you see them here do not exist in any format higher than SD video, and would have to be recreated.

As a side note, since all of the special effects in TOS were finished on film, they had the option of leaving minor effects, such as transporters, phasers, and force fields unchanged, and only concentrate on the major effects. With TNG, they do not have that option. Every effect has to be recreated, even the little ones.

As another side note, we are making a huge assumption that the original film elements do indeed still exist. There's always the possibility that at least some film was destroyed or lost. That possibility is increased by the fact that TNG was never released to broadcasters on film, so no TV stations or collectors would have any of it on film.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff21/dares_user_name/th_TNGExcerpt.jpg (http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff21/dares_user_name/?action=view&current=TNGExcerpt.flv)

rcoleman11
05-18-2009, 02:52 PM
Nobody ever said every scene would have to be reshot. I have said repeatedly that they do have all of the camera footage on film. They have it. Reshooting the live action doesn't exist as a problem.

But the existing shots that they do already have will still have to be edited into the complete episodes. That assembly was never done on film.

You seem determined to not acknowledge the effort and expense that recreating the show in HD would be. No, they don't have to reshoot scenes, but that doesn't mean the redone post-production cycle will be free. If you're just going to cross your arms and stamp your feet about it, I don't know what to tell you. You sound like I'm trying to talk you out of converting TNG to HD yourself. lol... I'm simply trying to explain to you why you shouldn't hold your breath for a Blu-ray. You'll turn bluer than the ray. :D

Oh really? Nobody ever said that? What do call this comment?

2. the amount of SF's in TNG were very plentiful. They are working with a resolution of 480i. They literally would have to re do every episode from scratch. Only the live action is recorded on 35mm film.

What exactly do you think "they would literally have to re do every episode from scratch" means?

As to the comment about crossing arms and stamping feet, I'd have to say that's a fair description of your behavior - stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the facts even when they are staring you in the face.

The facts are clear - if the original film is still available, the obstacles to creating a Blu-ray set for TNG are not any greater than they were for the original series. If Paramount believes there is money in a Blu-ray release, it will happen, whether you like it or not.

Dare
05-18-2009, 06:06 PM
What exactly do you think "they would literally have to re do every episode from scratch" means?


I can't speak for Lee, but I didn't interpret "redo" as "reshoot". But if redoing from scratch means going back to the virgin clips and starting reconstruction from there, I think his statement is accurate. It goes beyond simply remastering or restoring. It's actually a comprehensive re-production.

As to the comment about crossing arms and stamping feet, I'd have to say that's a fair description of your behavior - stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the facts even when they are staring you in the face.

The facts are clear - if the original film is still available, the obstacles to creating a Blu-ray set for TNG are not any greater than they were for the original series. If Paramount believes there is money in a Blu-ray release, it will happen, whether you like it or not.

Are you kidding? I would love it. TNG in HD? That would kick ass. Unfortunately, it isn't very realistic. Reality is that TOS was a cake walk. The fact staring both of us in the face is that the obstacles *ARE* greater than they were for the original series, as I and others have explained ad nauseum. You don't seem to be disagreeing with any of the points I and others have made explaining why. You're just saying 'nuts' and insisting that it'll be done, all arguments to the contrary be damned. Now which one of us is stamping his feet?

rcoleman11
05-18-2009, 07:27 PM
I can't speak for Lee, but I didn't interpret "redo" as "reshoot". But if redoing from scratch means going back to the virgin clips and starting reconstruction from there, I think his statement is accurate. It goes beyond simply remastering or restoring. It's actually a comprehensive re-production.


When somebody says "they would literally have to re do every episode from scratch", I take that to mean, well... that they would have to redo every episode from scratch. It's clear that is not the case.


Are you kidding? I would love it. TNG in HD? That would kick ass. Unfortunately, it isn't very realistic. Reality is that TOS was a cake walk. The fact staring both of us in the face is that the obstacles *ARE* greater than they were for the original series, as I and others have explained ad nauseum. You don't seem to be disagreeing with any of the points I and others have made explaining why. You're just saying 'nuts' and insisting that it'll be done, all arguments to the contrary be damned. Now which one of us is stamping his feet?

Far from stamping my feet, I've done nothing but point to facts. You're the one who is resorting to insults and personal attacks.

Lee Stewart
05-18-2009, 08:01 PM
Is this the same Paramount that refused to restore The Godfather negative which was one step away from total uselessness? If it wasn't for Steven Speilberg coming up with the $1 million to finance the restoration - the negative would have been lost forever.

rcoleman11:

I am convinced that you do not understand the entire post production chain and the work and effort that is undertaken during this process. If you did, you would not be so sure of ST TNG being released on BD.

rcoleman11
05-18-2009, 08:45 PM
Is this the same Paramount that refused to restore The Godfather negative which was one step away from total uselessness? If it wasn't for Steven Speilberg coming up with the $1 million to finance the restoration - the negative would have been lost forever.

To my knowledge, there is only one Paramount Pictures.


rcoleman11:

I am convinced that you do not understand the entire post production chain and the work and effort that is undertaken during this process. If you did, you would not be so sure of ST TNG being released on BD.

There is nothing to prevent it from happening; it's a matter of whether Paramount believes a Blu-ray release will make money, not whether it can be done. In any event, your statement that "they would literally have to re do every episode from scratch" is simply not true.

Lee Stewart
05-18-2009, 09:02 PM
To my knowledge, there is only one Paramount Pictures.

Yep - I hope that example showed some of Paramounts thinking when it comes to spending ALOT of money to get one of their products ready for HD. ;)

There is nothing to prevent it from happening; it's a matter of whether Paramount believes a Blu-ray release will make money, not whether it can be done. In any event, your statement that "they would literally have to re do every episode from scratch" is simply not true.

Yes it is true. We ALL agree that (if) the live action is available on 35mm AND IN GOOD SHAPE (there are TONS of horror stories about the storage of 35mm film and the poor actions by studios to preserve it - there are TONS of movies that are lost forever because the negatives no longer exist.) all the SFX shots have to be done all over again in a higher definition than 480i (the resolution of Beta-Cam)

And we are talking about 178 episodes each 45 minutes long (with 2 being 2 hours long). THAT is ALOT of 35mm film.

Each segement of 35mm film has to be inspected, cleaned of dirt than transfered to a DI just so all the editing of the newly created SFX can be done at a level of HD resolution.

And an OBTW - ST TNG is currently playing on the SciFi channel (SD and HD). Paramount gets mucho bucks for this.

rcoleman11
05-18-2009, 10:37 PM
Yep - I hope that example showed some of Paramounts thinking when it comes to spending ALOT of money to get one of their products ready for HD. ;)

I'm just glad "The Godfather" got restored and released on Blu-ray. I bought that box set a few months ago. I hadn't heard about Spielberg putting up money for restoration, but it isn't surprising. Sumner Redstone is known as a penny-pincher, which is one of the reasons Paramount had to buy Dreamworks. From what I've heard, their own product pipeline was depleted in part because Redstone wouldn't green-light projects.

Lee Stewart
05-18-2009, 11:10 PM
We know that Toshiba paid for all the work done for TOS season one, so that was 33% of the total cost (probably more because some of the new SFX will carry over to the other two seasons - like the Enterprise fly by shots).

I saw posted that with the release of the ST films box set - only #2 (Wraith of Kahn) was a brand new transfer and they used the old HD transfers created when the DVD's first came out.

Can anyone verify this info as being accurate.

HD Goofnut
05-18-2009, 11:28 PM
We know that Toshiba paid for all the work done for TOS season one, so that was 33% of the total cost (probably more because some of the new SFX will carry over to the other two seasons - like the Enterprise fly by shots).

I saw posted that with the release of the ST films box set - only #2 (Wraith of Kahn) was a brand new transfer and they used the old HD transfers created when the DVD's first came out.

Can anyone verify this info as being accurate.

Yes, this is accurate as announced by Paramount and it is why I will hold off buying the Star Trek films. They should have done all 6 like Wrath of Kahn, but they ran out of time with the new Star Trek film hitting theaters a week and a half ago.

Lee Stewart
05-19-2009, 12:30 AM
Yes, this is accurate as announced by Paramount and it is why I will hold off buying the Star Trek films. They should have done all 6 like Wrath of Kahn, but they ran out of time with the new Star Trek film hitting theaters a week and a half ago.

So the old HD transfer done years ago were "good enough."

:lol:

If that was their "excuse" the new ST film was in production years ago and the ST films themselves are many years old.

Sounds like $ was the reason. ;)

HD Goofnut
05-19-2009, 07:19 AM
So the old HD transfer done years ago were "good enough."

:lol:

If that was their "excuse" the new ST film was in production years ago and the ST films themselves are many years old.

Sounds like $ was the reason. ;)

Exactly. Instead of starting on the restoration process a year or so ago like they should have Paramount waited until the last minute on Kahn and then had no time left over to do the rest before the new Star Trek was released.

Dare
05-20-2009, 11:30 AM
But that's the same Paramount that's going to drop many millions of dollars on a new TNG HD redux, the equivalent of about 70 movies worth of footage, that all needs 100% of the post production recreated. All of the cheapness you're describing is a little out of character for them, isn't it? :D :D

HD Goofnut
05-20-2009, 03:26 PM
But that's the same Paramount that's going to drop many millions of dollars on a new TNG HD redux, the equivalent of about 70 movies worth of footage, that all needs 100% of the post production recreated. All of the cheapness you're describing is a little out of character for them, isn't it? :D :D

That's why I think the Star Trek films will be re-released on BD in the future.

Kcgreatfox
05-20-2009, 04:59 PM
That's why I think the Star Trek films will be re-released on BD in the future.

Even if they don't release the series, it would definitely be nice to see the movies on Blu-ray!

The battle scene against the Borg in the beginning of First Contact would look INCREDIBLE in HD :banana:

HD Goofnut
05-20-2009, 05:04 PM
Even if they don't release the series, it would definitely be nice to see the movies on Blu-ray!

The battle scene against the Borg in the beginning of First Contact would look INCREDIBLE in HD :banana:

In regards to a release on BD: Resistance is futile!

geigertube
05-21-2009, 01:53 PM
Hi,

I ran across this thread while looking for ST:TNG on Blu-Ray.

Has anyone seen that a place holder for a Blu-Ray release of ST:TNG is up on Amazon?

(I'd provide a link but the forum won't let me. A search for "star trek generation blu ray" will reveal it, however.)

Opinions?

Lee Stewart
05-21-2009, 02:56 PM
Hi,

I ran across this thread while looking for ST:TNG on Blu-Ray.

Has anyone seen that a place holder for a Blu-Ray release of ST:TNG is up on Amazon?

(I'd provide a link but the forum won't let me. A search for "star trek generation blu ray" will reveal it, however.)

Opinions?

Thiose place holders really don't mean anything. Many times they will be used to gauge interest.

I believe you will find the Indiana Jones movies (1,2 & 3) along with Star Wars movies.

Kcgreatfox
05-21-2009, 04:53 PM
Hi,

I ran across this thread while looking for ST:TNG on Blu-Ray.

Has anyone seen that a place holder for a Blu-Ray release of ST:TNG is up on Amazon?

(I'd provide a link but the forum won't let me. A search for "star trek generation blu ray" will reveal it, however.)

Opinions?

Yeah, the placeholder doesn't mean anything as far as I know... it just indicates that a Blu-ray release is a possibility.

I've signed up to be alerted by Amazon if seasons of TNG or First Contact become available on Blu-ray.

hcyfjxgd
05-25-2009, 05:36 PM
The film elements could be transferred to HD, but all of the special effects were created on SD video, sometimes at a different frame rate than the film elements. That means NTSC SD video is TNG's native format. I'm afraid the existing DVDs are the best you're ever going to get.

Bitch at the producers who had no concept of future-proofing.

The effects were composited on video, meaning the various filmed elements were layered together. However the actual elements themselves were shot on 35mm motion picture film just like the rest of the show.

Even effects like the transporter where shot on film

Even though the series was edited on video tape care was often taken at that time to reference KeyKode (the film equivalent of timecode) either by retaining this information in the extra timecode bits on the video tape or by transfer logs which match the videotape EDL to the film negatives' KeyKode. This makes finding the shots and re-cutting them quite easy.

Dare
05-26-2009, 03:18 AM
You assume those film elements still exist.

Kosty
05-26-2009, 01:42 PM
You assume those film elements still exist.

I believe I was told that the film elements for TNG did exist as there was some sense that they were valuable in some way, but I was also told that TOS was far easier to upgrade to HD because of TNG's standard def video compositing. There also are more episodes and more SFX shots in TNG than TOS so there is more of a commitment cost to do it right. The other factor is that its not so much a step up as is the new TOS redo as the TNG effects and episodes look OK in upconverted DVD and the effects are already there. So the though is how much better will it look and how much will it cost. If the end result is it looks only less soft, then that may not be as marketable.

Dare
05-26-2009, 09:29 PM
I think if TNG was redone in HD, the difference would be dramatic. I don't know if you saw the SD/HD comparisons I posted here about a year ago, but that's the kind of difference I would expect.

The current DVDs do not look great. Some look okay, but some do not. Keep in mind that the transfers were done between 1987 and 1993 (when laserdisc was all the rage ;)), and we all know what movies transferred during that time frame look like. Occasionally you'll even see dot crawl and rainbows, which indicates that those parts were mastered from a composite signal. If the DVDs are representative of the quality that's available from the final video masters, then that doesn't bode well. The only way to improve them would be to go down the full-blown re-post route, and that means HD.

Kosty
05-26-2009, 09:35 PM
I think if TNG was redone in HD, the difference would be dramatic. I don't know if you saw the SD/HD comparisons I posted here about a year ago, but that's the kind of difference I would expect.

The current DVDs do not look great. Some look okay, but some do not. Keep in mind that the transfers were done between 1987 and 1993 (when laserdisc was all the rage ;)), and we all know what movies transferred during that time frame look like. Occasionally you'll even see dot crawl and rainbows, which indicates that those parts were mastered from a composite signal. If the DVDs are representative of the quality that's available from the final video masters, then that doesn't bode well. The only way to improve them would be to go down the full-blown re-post route, and that means HD.


Maybe, its been years since I saw the DVD set and I'm not sure I have seen any TNG in HD, I've seen TOS and Enterprise and some movies in high def though.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see all TNG done right in Blu-ray.

Kcgreatfox
06-17-2009, 04:40 PM
I just got the original series on blu-ray, which includes both the original version, and remastered scenes with good special effects. If they can remake scenes with good graphics for the original series, why can't they do it with TNG?

Also, the majority of the special effects scenes they would have to redo would be reusable in virtually every episode. They reuse the same shot of the enterprise over and over again, greatly reducing the number of enhanced scenes that would have to be produced.

HD Goofnut
06-17-2009, 05:29 PM
I just got the original series on blu-ray, which includes both the original version, and remastered scenes with good special effects. If they can remake scenes with good graphics for the original series, why can't they do it with TNG?

Also, the majority of the special effects scenes they would have to redo would be reusable in virtually every episode. They reuse the same shot of the enterprise over and over again, greatly reducing the number of enhanced scenes that would have to be produced.

It would make sense. If they do release TNG on BD I hope they preserve the 1:33:1 AR instead of stretch and crop for a 1:78:1 ratio.

Kcgreatfox
06-17-2009, 08:48 PM
It would make sense. If they do release TNG on BD I hope they preserve the 1:33:1 AR instead of stretch and crop for a 1:78:1 ratio.

I'm almost certain that they would preserve the original aspect ratio. That's what they did with the orignal series BD release.

Kcgreatfox
06-20-2009, 02:35 PM
I've heard a rumor that Star Trek: Generations - Nemesis will be released on Blu-ray in October along with the new movie. Anyone seen any official articles about this??? It would be pretty spectacular if it were true!

Lee Stewart
06-20-2009, 03:54 PM
I've heard a rumor that Star Trek: Generations - Nemesis will be released on Blu-ray in October along with the new movie. Anyone seen any official articles about this??? It would be pretty spectacular if it were true!

From Bill Hunt:

We just wanted to post a quick update today on yet-to-be-announced catalog Blu-ray titles for the rest of 2009 - those that are likely for this year, and those which our sources have been able to confirm have been bumped into 2010. Here's the breakdown of titles that are still tentatively set for release this year (watch for official announcements in the next month or two):

Braveheart, Gladiator: Extended, Forrest Gump, South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut, It's a Wonderful Life, TNG Star Trek films, Star Trek: TOS - Season 2 (Paramount), Galaxy Quest (DreamWorks), Monty Python and the Holy Grail, The Quick and the Dead, Easy Rider, Sex, Lies and Videotape, Punch Drunk Love (Sony - titles in Yellow newly added), Gone with the Wind, North by Northwest, Heat (Warner Bros.), The Lord of the Rings Trilogy: Theatical Editions, Magnolia, Boogie Nights, Green Mile (New Line)

The following titles have been moved into 2010 (or later, or were already tentatively set for 2010)...

To Live and Die in L.A. (MGM - Feb), Alien Quadrilogy, more Rogers & Hammerstein musicals (Fox - 2010), The Indiana Jones Trilogy, Chinatown, Flashdance (Paramount - TBA 2010), Ben-Hur, King Kong, Goonies (Warner Bros. - TBD - note that Goonies sees its 25th anniversary in 2010), Toy Story 1 & 2, Finding Nemo, Monsters Inc., Fantasia, Fantasia 2000, Destino, Beauty and the Beast (Disney - TBA 2010), Back to the Future Trilogy (Universal - strongly rumored, as 2010 marks the original film's 25th anniversary)

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/rumormill.html

HD Goofnut
06-20-2009, 04:37 PM
Lee's posted the announcement that all of the TNG films are being released. So we'll get Generations, First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis.

Lee Stewart
01-22-2010, 06:55 PM
Now that all the movies are out on Blu-Ray, it would seem that TPTB should have some spare time to start working on a blu-ray release of TNG series. Resistance is futile.

LOL - some time? They would have to dedicate the same amount of time that they spent actually making the series.

Dare
01-23-2010, 11:36 AM
Now that all the movies are out on Blu-Ray, it would seem that TPTB should have some spare time to start working on a blu-ray release of TNG series. Resistance is futile.

All of the original post-production was done in SD video, so every special effect would have to be recreated from scratch, and all the filmed elements would have to be re-edited shot by shot. Basically all of the post-production would have to be redone, starting from the raw camera footage, which is a much larger job than TOS was. Don't hold your breath on this one, because it would be crazy expensive.

But if you read the previous pages in this thread, we already beat this subject to death. :D

1080PsF
01-23-2010, 08:13 PM
All of the original post-production was done in SD video, so every special effect would have to be recreated from scratch, and all the filmed elements would have to be re-edited shot by shot. Basically all of the post-production would have to be redone, starting from the raw camera footage, which is a much larger job than TOS was. Don't hold your breath on this one, because it would be crazy expensive.

But if you read the previous pages in this thread, we already beat this subject to death. :DI wouldn't bet on them NOT re-doing the show. I know you beat this to death a year ago but there is money for the studio to make so I could see them re-doing it. How do you think all of these shows get to HD? They re-transfer them.

Lee Stewart
01-23-2010, 08:34 PM
I wouldn't bet on them NOT re-doing the show. I know you beat this to death a year ago but there is money for the studio to make so I could see them re-doing it. How do you think all of these shows get to HD? They re-transfer them.

ROI = Return On Investment. Money earned has to exceed money spent and the money needed to make STTNG into HD will be substantial - the most ever spent by a wide margin.

1080PsF
01-23-2010, 08:41 PM
ROI = Return On Investment. Money earned has to exceed money spent and the money needed to make STTNG into HD will be substantial - the most ever spent by a wide margin.How can you say that? Do you know how much it would cost?

Lee Stewart
01-23-2010, 08:47 PM
How can you say that? Do you know how much it would cost?

Millions and millions just due to all the special effects having to be redone. Only the live action was captured on film. And there are how many episodes?

EDIT:

And how are they going to deal with the AR? Leave it as it was originally at 1.33?

1080PsF
01-23-2010, 08:59 PM
Millions and millions just due to all the special effects having to be redone. Only the live action was captured on film. And there are how many episodes?

EDIT:

And how are they going to deal with the AR? Leave it as it was originally at 1.33?So are you saying each episode would cost millions to re-do? I think that would be more than they spent on making each episode. I'm just saying I would bet somewhere down the road they will re-do this show. The studios love to make money.

Lee Stewart
01-23-2010, 09:13 PM
So are you saying each episode would cost millions to re-do? I think that would be more than they spent on making each episode. I'm just saying I would bet somewhere down the road they will re-do this show. The studios love to make money.

No - I am saying millions and millions to do the entire 178 episodes.

The studios like to make easy money. ;)

OBTW - this is the same Paramount that refused to pony up for the restoration of The Godfather.

1080PsF
01-23-2010, 09:27 PM
Well I hope they re-master this show and every other show that was shot in film. It would be good for the industry.

kamspy
01-31-2010, 12:20 PM
I think they could do a test run on the first couple seasons.

TNG on Blu-Ray?

I think we'd see some ROI. I don't even think they'd have to go back and make the CGI stuff look stunning or anything. And all the space stuff can be done quick and dirty since they can just CGI the whole scene.


Lee, can you summarize the type of scene that you think would require substantial and costly rework?

Lee Stewart
01-31-2010, 01:06 PM
I think they could do a test run on the first couple seasons.

TNG on Blu-Ray?

I think we'd see some ROI. I don't even think they'd have to go back and make the CGI stuff look stunning or anything. And all the space stuff can be done quick and dirty since they can just CGI the whole scene.


Lee, can you summarize the type of scene that you think would require substantial and costly rework?

Ah - every scene? :lol:

Maybe with the exception of when they are standing in the "elevator."

Any scene that has any special effects would have to be redone.

There are 178 episodes. Just spending $100,000 per episode = almost $18 million and 100K is peanuts when it comes to labor costs.

Then you have the framing issue. The show was 1.33. I just don't believe that 1.33 HD AR is going to be a big hit with collectors.

HD Goofnut
01-31-2010, 02:27 PM
Then you have the framing issue. The show was 1.33. I just don't believe that 1.33 HD AR is going to be a big hit with collectors.

Why not? Isn't the original series in 1.33:1?

Lee Stewart
01-31-2010, 03:11 PM
Why not? Isn't the original series in 1.33:1?

Sure - from the 1960's.

So how many copies did Paramount sell on HD DVD and BD combined?

HD Goofnut
01-31-2010, 04:21 PM
Sure - from the 1960's.

So how many copies did Paramount sell on HD DVD and BD combined?

No idea. You'll have to email Paramount for that data.

Lee Stewart
01-31-2010, 04:26 PM
No idea. You'll have to email Paramount for that data.

Like they would tell you. :lol:

Kosty
01-31-2010, 09:30 PM
Back in the day when they did the TOS HD DVD set I asked about this and Paramount people said the standard definition SFX authoring made it almost the worst possible scenario for a true HD restoration.

If it would happen its basically going to be a HD upconversion that would be transferred to a Blu-ray Disc and you really can do that for yourself.

Only thing a Blu-ray version would add would be bring together some nice menus and access to the special features, but you probably would not get anymore than the DVD versions.

ST TNG was just in that transition period between standard definition , high definition, film video and high definition video 4:3 16:9 HDTV video mastering SFX technology computer video editing technology SFX heavy production etc that make it a just a problem. TOS was a lot easier as it was on film.

1080PsF
02-01-2010, 02:13 AM
Ah - every scene? :lol:

Maybe with the exception of when they are standing in the "elevator."

Any scene that has any special effects would have to be redone.

There are 178 episodes. Just spending $100,000 per episode = almost $18 million and 100K is peanuts when it comes to labor costs.

Then you have the framing issue. The show was 1.33. I just don't believe that 1.33 HD AR is going to be a big hit with collectors.$100,000 isn't peanuts. If the hourly cost was lets just say $500 that would be 200 hours that could be spent on every episode. I have to ask you Lee where are you getting your data for how much something costs. I do a lot of this work and I don't even know how much it is.

Lee Stewart
02-01-2010, 03:49 AM
$100,000 isn't peanuts. If the hourly cost was lets just say $500 that would be 200 hours that could be spent on every episode. I have to ask you Lee where are you getting your data for how much something costs. I do a lot of this work and I don't even know how much it is.

Who did the original SFX for the show? Industrial Light & Magic.

1080PsF
02-01-2010, 05:32 AM
Who did the original SFX for the show? Industrial Light & Magic.Per IMDB nine companies had something to do with the Special Effects including ILM.

Kosty
02-01-2010, 10:32 AM
I also do not think the SFX were consistently done from season to season which makes it even more of a mess.

Lee Stewart
02-01-2010, 04:29 PM
Per IMDB nine companies had something to do with the Special Effects including ILM.

It's more than just the cost to redo the special effects.

They have to deal with the 35mm footage for each episode. Has to be cleaned up/restored.

Once they have they new SFX footage, they have to reedit the episodes.

Then they have to make the master transfer tapes.

That all costs money.

mschupp
02-03-2010, 10:46 AM
$100,000 isn't peanuts. If the hourly cost was lets just say $500 that would be 200 hours that could be spent on every episode. I have to ask you Lee where are you getting your data for how much something costs. I do a lot of this work and I don't even know how much it is.

In order to evaluate whether $100,000 per episode is reasonable we would need to know the per-episode development cost for everything past the film stage. If I understand correctly, all of the editting and special effects have to be re-done in HD (in addition to restoring and scanning the original film).

According to this site (http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/articles/startrekmyths2.htm) the budget for each episode of the original series was $185,000 (that's a cool million in today's dollars). So I think $100,000 per episode in today's dollars to redo TNG's effects and editting is probably quite low.

Does anyone have any figures on the cost to re-do the original series for HD DVD?

Lee Stewart
02-03-2010, 11:26 AM
In order to evaluate whether $100,000 per episode is reasonable we would need to know the per-episode development cost for everything past the film stage. If I understand correctly, all of the editting and special effects have to be re-done in HD (in addition to restoring and scanning the original film).

According to this site (http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/articles/startrekmyths2.htm) the budget for each episode of the original series was $185,000 (that's a cool million in today's dollars). So I think $100,000 per episode in today's dollars to redo TNG's effects and editting is probably quite low.

Does anyone have any figures on the cost to re-do the original series for HD DVD?

Reportedly, Toshiba paid for the first season to be redone. And TOS will not be a good yard stick due to the difference in the amount of SFX between the two series.

Kosty
02-03-2010, 11:35 AM
Does anyone have any figures on the cost to re-do the original series for HD DVD? It was nowhere near that amount. But TOS was actually easy compared to TNG.

1080PsF
02-04-2010, 11:48 AM
In order to evaluate whether $100,000 per episode is reasonable we would need to know the per-episode development cost for everything past the film stage. If I understand correctly, all of the editting and special effects have to be re-done in HD (in addition to restoring and scanning the original film).

According to this site (http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/articles/startrekmyths2.htm) the budget for each episode of the original series was $185,000 (that's a cool million in today's dollars). So I think $100,000 per episode in today's dollars to redo TNG's effects and editting is probably quite low.

Does anyone have any figures on the cost to re-do the original series for HD DVD?It doesn't matter what the original budget was because today the effects can be done a lot cheaper than back then. Just think back then an editing system cost about $60,000 and the VTR's cost about $35,000 - 50,000 each and you would need 3 to 5 VTR's and an ADO was about $20,000 per channel and a switcher cost about $200,000 to 500,000. The total cost on an edit bay was about one million dollars so the cost to do anything in that bay was pretty costly. I remember back then our edit bays were running anywhere from $200 an hour to about $600 an hour. On top of all that it was harder back then to do the effects. Believe it or not a lot it wouldn't cost any more today per hour then it did back then if not cheaper. The studios have ground down how much they will pay because their are guys with systems like Final Cut Pro that will do it for dirt cheap. So I think a budget of $100,000 per episode would be high.

Super XP
02-06-2010, 06:02 AM
This is good news. They better be taking Star Trek TNG from its original film source and properly clean up the film, and do a superior Hi Def conversion.

I donít want something that will look like a 1080p DVD up-conversion unless of course they are not talking Blu-Ray and High Definition serious enough.

Dare
02-07-2010, 10:30 AM
It doesn't matter what the original budget was because today the effects can be done a lot cheaper than back then. Just think back then an editing system cost about $60,000 and the VTR's cost about $35,000 - 50,000 each and you would need 3 to 5 VTR's and an ADO was about $20,000 per channel and a switcher cost about $200,000 to 500,000. The total cost on an edit bay was about one million dollars so the cost to do anything in that bay was pretty costly. I remember back then our edit bays were running anywhere from $200 an hour to about $600 an hour. On top of all that it was harder back then to do the effects. Believe it or not a lot it wouldn't cost any more today per hour then it did back then if not cheaper. The studios have ground down how much they will pay because their are guys with systems like Final Cut Pro that will do it for dirt cheap. So I think a budget of $100,000 per episode would be high.

The equipment is always the least expensive factor in the equation, no matter how expensive it is. Most of the budget goes to (unionized Hollywood) salaries, and not just the salary of the one dude sitting at the workstation.

There's a lot more to be redone than just the effects, too. The disconnected live action camera elements are the only things they have that are in a state to be re-transferred. (Restoration guy's salary) The episodes weren't even assembled on film, so every episode will have to be re-edited. (Editor's salary) All the sound will have to be re-edited and remastered. (Sound engineer, sound editor, music editor) Then the CG, of course (3D modellers, lighting guy, rigging guy, animator(s), effects guy) And don't forget the director(s) and producers. Everybody gets paid. Basically, everything in the process that comes after developing the film will have to be done over again. I could see that adding up to a million bucks per episode pretty easily, or more if they aren't careful.

If TNG were made today, it would probably have an average budget of 3 to 4 million per episode (some more, some less), just like other shows of its kind filmed in Hollywood. For a TNG re-production, All you can subtract from that budget would be the actors, sets, and filming crew. (Although, let's face it, they would probably have to pay the actors again.) Maybe they could cut that 3-4m budget in half.

That's just the price of not thinking ahead and future-proofing the production.

1080PsF
02-07-2010, 09:07 PM
The equipment is always the least expensive factor in the equation, no matter how expensive it is. Most of the budget goes to (unionized Hollywood) salaries, and not just the salary of the one dude sitting at the workstation.

There's a lot more to be redone than just the effects, too. The disconnected live action camera elements are the only things they have that are in a state to be re-transferred. (Restoration guy's salary) The episodes weren't even assembled on film, so every episode will have to be re-edited. (Editor's salary) All the sound will have to be re-edited and remastered. (Sound engineer, sound editor, music editor) Then the CG, of course (3D modellers, lighting guy, rigging guy, animator(s), effects guy) And don't forget the director(s) and producers. Everybody gets paid. Basically, everything in the process that comes after developing the film will have to be done over again. I could see that adding up to a million bucks per episode pretty easily, or more if they aren't careful.

If TNG were made today, it would probably have an average budget of 3 to 4 million per episode (some more, some less), just like other shows of its kind filmed in Hollywood. For a TNG re-production, All you can subtract from that budget would be the actors, sets, and filming crew. (Although, let's face it, they would probably have to pay the actors again.) Maybe they could cut that 3-4m budget in half.

That's just the price of not thinking ahead and future-proofing the production.Wow, that's not even close to how it works. Paramount would send it to a or a few post-production house(s) (there are many in the L.A. area) and they might hire a post production supervisor to handle the project. They will strike a deal with the post house for either a per hour or per episode or even a total package deal. Most of the post houses are non-union but that doesn't even matter because the wages would be paid by the post house not the studio. So as I said before $100,000 per episode I think would be high.

So how would they have future proofed this show? TNG went from 1987-1994 so even if they had gone HD it still wouldn't be the HD of now. In 1994 HD was only 1035 not 1080. Do you think the shows of now days are really caring about what might happen in the future? Do you think they are 3D proofing or 4k proofing shows?

HD Goofnut
02-07-2010, 09:26 PM
Wow, that's not even close to how it works. Paramount would send it to a or a few post-production house(s) (there are many in the L.A. area) and they might hire a post production supervisor to handle the project. They will strike a deal with the post house for either a per hour or per episode or even a total package deal. Most of the post houses are non-union but that doesn't even matter because the wages would be paid by the post house not the studio. So as I said before $100,000 per episode I think would be high.

So how would they have future proofed this show? TNG went from 1987-1994 so even if they had gone HD it still wouldn't be the HD of now. In 1994 HD was only 1035 not 1080. Do you think the shows of now days are really caring about what might happen in the future? Do you think they are 3D proofing or 4k proofing shows?

There are still plenty of shows being done in 480. Look at Oprah and Dr. Phil for example. They are some of the most popular daytime shows and are still being broadcast in SD.

1080PsF
02-07-2010, 09:42 PM
There are still plenty of shows being done in 480. Look at Oprah and Dr. Phil for example. They are some of the most popular daytime shows and are still being broadcast in SD.Didn't Dr. Phil go HD this season? I had friend interview for that show and he said that they were going HD and no one working on that show ran HD so he thought he was a shoe in.

HD Goofnut
02-07-2010, 09:55 PM
Didn't Dr. Phil go HD this season? I had friend interview for that show and he said that they were going HD and no one working on that show ran HD so he thought he was a shoe in.

It's still pillar boxed when my wife watches it so I dunno.

Dare
02-13-2010, 06:26 PM
Wow, that's not even close to how it works. (...bla bla...) So as I said before $100,000 per episode I think would be high.

You're totally ignoring all the other work that would be necessary besides the editing.


So how would they have future proofed this show? (...bla bla...)

Finish to film. Like Lucy did. (Trivia, her production company made TOS)

1080PsF
02-14-2010, 04:46 AM
You're totally ignoring all the other work that would be necessary besides the editing.How are you saying that? When it would be sent to the post house they would do all the work. Well the video would be done at one post house and the audio would be done at another. So on the video side it wouldn't be just the editing it would be all of the work.Finish to film. Like Lucy did. (Trivia, her production company made TOS)To finish on film would have cost so much more and taken so much longer. They wanted to finish the show on time to make air and for it to cost as little as possible.

Kcgreatfox
02-14-2010, 05:54 PM
This is good news. They better be taking Star Trek TNG from its original film source and properly clean up the film, and do a superior Hi Def conversion.

I donít want something that will look like a 1080p DVD up-conversion unless of course they are not talking Blu-Ray and High Definition serious enough.

Yeah, I'm hoping they still have the original film still available.

I imagine they would keep all their original film, but who knows? :what:

As for re-doing the special effects in HD, I don't think it would be too difficult. There are many angles/scenes of the Enterprise that they reuse in virtually every episode.

For example, the Enterprise is seen moving away from the camera in the same way a huge number of episodes, so that clip would not need to be re-done for each episode. Just once. I'm not an expert so I could be over-simplifying this, but it makes sense to me.

Tritium
02-15-2010, 07:03 AM
ROI = Return On Investment. Money earned has to exceed money spent and the money needed to make STTNG into HD will be substantial - the most ever spent by a wide margin.

Wait wait wait...

The only way that could be true is if they spent OVER half a BILLION on the restoration. The most ever spent in Hollywood was on avatar, in the 300-500 million USD range. Even if they spent 2 million on each episode (which would be massively excessive), that would be LESS than the most ever spent..and by a wide margin. With about 180 hour long episodes (1 hour = 43 minutes), it would cost about 18 million. That is less than it would cost to make a new movie. Star Trek TNG movies made more on DVD than they did in theaters, So the market for disk sales of trek is big. (Go figure, young to middle age male geeks seam to have disposable income). They will definitely make their money back redoing TNG. They need to sell 17143 full series to make their money back with each season costing 150, which is a low guess of what they will start out at. hell the DVDs were close to that without a remaster cost. Not to mention what they can make on syndication of the remaster.

Besides, 100,000 per hour of content is pretty accurate for the work that needs to be done, considering that there are alot of composite elements that were used in the original. They would reuse an old shot of the enterprise and composite in another ship. They did this to save money, and there is no reason they couldn't or wouldn't do that again. Also if they were to to digital reconstructions of all the fx shots, it would be easier: they have the composite notes and the pre-res already done... you can buy them on DVD. And in the digital age, you don't have to reconstruct a phaser shot each time, you can save a preset and reuse it for free 179 times. You don't have to build models.

I wish I could remember the link, someone will look it up now that it has been mentioned, but before the auction to sell off all the assets, the models and such were scanned with a 3d scanner. They have the digital assets (though there may be a work flow created to ensure quality... but that will be worked out by the time they are done with encounter at farpoint.)

Also keep in mind, that TOS was not scanned from the final print made for distribution, but the prints out of the cameras. They remade it with film that never had the effects in it in the first place. That's how they were able to redo phaser shots with such clarity. There is no reason to believe that the same prints were not kept on tng, ds9, voy, and the first 3 seasons of ent (season 4 was shot on sony hd cameras IIRC). There is no reason to believe that the original digital assets don't still exist for tng, and could be used whole or in some part in a new high-res rendering. They kept a wig worn 45 years ago by obscure actresses in what was thought of at the time as a childish western in the stars, after all.

Back to the issue of budget, there are episodes that I would be appalled if they spent more than 10,000 for restoration ("the perfect mate" comes to mind. There was ~10 seconds of effects, and they were cheap and easy effects even back then. "The Bonding" is another. Simple fades that can be done with any NLE). I believe 100,000 would be a decent average over 180 hours.

And for the record, HD was designed to work with a large number of AR's. I don't get this obsession with 1.78. It was chosen because it has minimal letterboxing or pillerboxing to show all common aspect ratios at the time, which by the way, are the same common aspect ratios used now. If the shot was framed for 1:1, that's how I want to see it.

frandavis
04-16-2010, 05:47 AM
Star trek The Next Generation is awesome sci-fi series. I have not yet watched all episodes. i have still on it's season 2. Actually i m following star trek series from passing three month ans still on it's season 2. but according to it's story line, i trutely can say, no any other Sci-fi series can ever comes like to Star trek. it's one of the best tv shows

Ti-triodes
04-20-2010, 05:34 PM
Star trek The Next Generation is awesome sci-fi series. I have not yet watched all episodes. i have still on it's season 2. Actually i m following star trek series from passing three month ans still on it's season 2. but according to it's story line, i trutely can say, no any other Sci-fi series can ever comes like to Star trek. it's one of the best tv shows


Check out ST "Deep Space Nine" if you want to see the best ST series ever made.

McKennDog
09-24-2010, 12:50 PM
After reading through... I know the technical difficulty involved, as well as the exorbitant cost to redo all the post production work to make TNG Blu-Ray ready.... However.. I read this, and thought I might share it... Not to get hopes up... but to show that TNG may some day be available on Blu-Ray... but it may take years...

"August 9, 2010

Next Gen on Blu-ray?

All three seasons of the originalStar Trek are now available in HD, but what about TNG? In a response to a question about TNG on Blu-ray, CBS Consumer Products VP John Van Citters told the crowd in Las Vegas that releasing Star Trek: The Next Generation on Blu-ray was much more "problematic" than the original Star Trek, due to how the TNG original effects shots were composited, and how that makes the transfer to HD "incredibly difficult without making them look awful." However, he also said that there is "a lot of conversations going on" within CBS on how to convert TNG to HD, and Van Citters expressed optimism noting "It is being worked on and I expect it will happen, it is just a technical challenge."

Following his talk, I confirmed with Van Citters that even though he is optimistic that the challenges will be met, as of now there is no specific plan or budget for the project within CBS. So this is still something that is a long-term project."

I wish I could post the URL.. the problem is that I haven't posted here yet... so it won't let me.. but if you google what I put in quotes.. you will find it right away..

Live Long ~ And Prosper !!!

Lee Stewart
09-24-2010, 04:51 PM
Here is the link:

http://trekmovie.com/2010/08/09/vegascon10-cbs-products-panel-tng-on-blu-ray-being-discussed-new-enterprise-pizza-slicer-kelvin-salt-pepper-shaker-more/

Super XP
09-25-2010, 07:56 AM
Was the Star Trek: The Next Generation filmed in SD? Because the regular DVD's really sucks in picture quality IMO. I hope they release this on Blu-Ray, that would be wild.:)

PFC5
09-25-2010, 09:06 AM
I think they shot it on video instead of film as one of the major problems with bringing it to BD. Film can't be done in SD, and is above HD resolutions. They have to reduce the resolution of film even for BD, never mind SD DVD.

1080PsF
09-25-2010, 09:18 AM
I think they shot it on video instead of film as one of the major problems with bringing it to BD. Film can't be done in SD, and is above HD resolutions. They have to reduce the resolution of film even for BD, never mind SD DVD.It was shot in 35mm film per IMDb.

PFC5
09-25-2010, 09:31 AM
I stand corrected then. Thanks for posting the correct info. :hithere:

SO did the original elements get destroyed or something? Sounds like they should be able to do a BD then, unless they did all the special effects in video and can't do it in HD unless they redo much of it like they did with ST TOS.

1080PsF
09-25-2010, 10:32 AM
I stand corrected then. Thanks for posting the correct info. :hithere:

SO did the original elements get destroyed or something? Sounds like they should be able to do a BD then, unless they did all the special effects in video and can't do it in HD unless they redo much of it like they did with ST TOS.I believe that the film was transferred to videotape then edited in video. The effects were also done in video. To re-master these all the effects will need to re-made in HD.

PFC5
09-25-2010, 01:49 PM
I believe that the film was transferred to videotape then edited in video. The effects were also done in video. To re-master these all the effects will need to re-made in HD.

That is what I figured. Thanks!

So it would take the same amount of work or more than ST TOS then right?

Lee Stewart
09-25-2010, 02:54 PM
AFAIK, the live action scenes were shot in 35mm but all the special effects were done on tape - in SD.

Then it was all converted to SD-tape in post production

1080PsF
09-25-2010, 03:19 PM
That is what I figured. Thanks!

So it would take the same amount of work or more than ST TOS then right?It will take way more work. But if the studio and a post house can agree on the correct budget it might be done.

Super XP
09-26-2010, 08:17 AM
Why on earth would they do the special effects on video tape and the rest on Film? The technology back then couldn't be that bad:eek:

dangerdoc
09-26-2010, 09:15 AM
Why on earth would they do the special effects on video tape and the rest on Film? The technology back then couldn't be that bad:eek:

The special effects were computer generated back when the intel 386 was state of the art. I don't think they could have kept up with production creating CGI at film resolution.

1080PsF
09-26-2010, 09:22 AM
Why on earth would they do the special effects on video tape and the rest on Film? The technology back then couldn't be that bad:eek:It was done because of cost. To do the effects in film would have cost a lot more and a lot more time.

Superman
09-29-2010, 09:07 AM
The special effects were computer generated back when the intel 386 was state of the art. I don't think they could have kept up with production creating CGI at film resolution.
AFAIK, the live action scenes were shot in 35mm but all the special effects were done on tape - in SD.

Then it was all converted to SD-tape in post production

I was under the impression in addition to the live-action footage, nearly all the effects were shot on film (with a little CGI here and there), but composited on SD video in post-production.

Either way, you're still talking about a whole lot of reworking to get a native HD picture.

Lee Stewart
09-29-2010, 09:33 AM
I was under the impression in addition to the live-action footage, nearly all the effects were shot on film (with a little CGI here and there), but composited on SD video in post-production.

Either way, you're still talking about a whole lot of reworking to get a native HD picture.

TNG was shot on 35mm film, including most of the major visual effects elements (ex. ships), but unlike the original series, most other effects and compositing were done at SD resolution on D1 video.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation

Super XP
09-30-2010, 07:13 PM
So the Special FX was done on SD, is that why Star Trek TNG did not look good on my High Def TV regardless whether I up-scaled to 1080p, 720p & even 480i/p.
Paramount has a lot of work ahead of themselves. The sooner they can get this series onto Blu-Ray the sooner I can buy them providing they are the right price.

Super XP
10-01-2010, 12:03 PM
Is it safe to say the Star Trek: TNG movie special effects were not SD video right because I have the BD versions and they look amazing.

PFC5
10-01-2010, 12:15 PM
The movie was transferred for film to show in theaters so it was likely not done the same as for the TV series.

Superman
10-01-2010, 12:34 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation

OK, so we were both right. :D

PFC5
10-01-2010, 03:13 PM
Good to see you posting again Superman. I keep saying that when you pop back around every few months. Why not stick around more often or are you just looking for a new "welcome back" post each time. :lol: :p

Superman
10-01-2010, 04:53 PM
Yeah, and now that you've posted it, I'll see you all next Easter.

:D

PFC5
10-01-2010, 05:43 PM
:roflmao:

Super XP
10-02-2010, 04:02 PM
Yeah, and now that you've posted it, I'll see you all next Easter.

:D
Till then, have a good one:D

Navatar
01-28-2011, 09:34 AM
Even if Paramount just released the SD episodes on Blu-Ray without any upconversion, it would mean each season could be contained on one or two BD discs. I think that's pretty cool and worth the cost.

HD Goofnut
01-28-2011, 10:37 AM
Even if Paramount just released the SD episodes on Blu-Ray without any upconversion, it would mean each season could be contained on one or two BD discs. I think that's pretty cool and worth the cost.

I wouldn't buy them then because I already own all 7 seasons on DVD as it is. IMHO that would be a waste of money.

mill2434
01-28-2011, 12:47 PM
That's awesome, I'm gonna go check that out right away. I also found this site to have some good stuff as well - www.hdvideocamerareview.com

dangerdoc
02-03-2011, 12:30 PM
Even if Paramount just released the SD episodes on Blu-Ray without any upconversion, it would mean each season could be contained on one or two BD discs. I think that's pretty cool and worth the cost.

I would expect about everybody that wanted STNG in SD has already bought it. That leaves a pretty small market.

Dare
02-06-2011, 09:11 AM
I'm saving up for Space: 1999 on Blu-ray. How awesome is that? :D

I catch episodes of STTNG on cable every once in a while, and it's amazing how godawful they look. They're exactly how I remember them, with the awful late '80s film transfer technology and video effects, but I also watched them on a 12" CRT back then so it was more forgivable. Do the DVDs look the same as what they're broadcasting? If so, that's pretty terrible.

Refitting the series to HD would be such a massive and expensive job, but it would be interesting if they did one episode just as an experiment, to see how bad it would be.

Of course, it'll never happen.

dangerdoc
02-06-2011, 03:15 PM
I'm saving up for Space: 1999 on Blu-ray. How awesome is that? :D

I catch episodes of STTNG on cable every once in a while, and it's amazing how godawful they look. They're exactly how I remember them, with the awful late '80s film transfer technology and video effects, but I also watched them on a 12" CRT back then so it was more forgivable. Do the DVDs look the same as what they're broadcasting? If so, that's pretty terrible.

Refitting the series to HD would be such a massive and expensive job, but it would be interesting if they did one episode just as an experiment, to see how bad it would be.

Of course, it'll never happen.



Which episode would you choose?

HD Goofnut
02-06-2011, 03:21 PM
I'm saving up for Space: 1999 on Blu-ray. How awesome is that? :D

I catch episodes of STTNG on cable every once in a while, and it's amazing how godawful they look. They're exactly how I remember them, with the awful late '80s film transfer technology and video effects, but I also watched them on a 12" CRT back then so it was more forgivable. Do the DVDs look the same as what they're broadcasting? If so, that's pretty terrible.

Refitting the series to HD would be such a massive and expensive job, but it would be interesting if they did one episode just as an experiment, to see how bad it would be.

Of course, it'll never happen.

The DVDs look slightly better with decent upconversion, but they still look like crap.

Dare
02-08-2011, 07:36 PM
Which episode would you choose?

That's a tough question. Out of its 7 year run, I could probably count all of the legitimately good episodes on one hand. ;)

Just to get a worst case scenario, it should probably be one that's heavy on effects. I liked Chain of Command pt. 1&2, because it demonstrated how whiny and lame the crew normally was, and what an awesome captain is supposed to look like. (I guess the producers didn't recognize self-parody when they saw it.) There's also Tapestry, where Q showed Picard what a zero he would have been if his young self was like his current self. (Another self-inflicted kick in the nuts.) But for effects, maybe The Best of Both Worlds pt. 1&2.

1080PsF
02-09-2011, 10:10 AM
The DVDs look slightly better with decent upconversion, but they still look like crap.upconversion? What do you mean by that? Do you mean to your HD monitor? Or what?

HD Goofnut
02-09-2011, 11:28 AM
upconversion? What do you mean by that? Do you mean to your HD monitor? Or what?

The upconversion of your respective BD or DVD player. I have watched the DVDs using my A20 and PS3 and they do a decent job of upconverting the 720 x 480 image, but it still looks like crap.

Lee Stewart
02-09-2011, 12:24 PM
The upconversion of your respective BD or DVD player. I have watched the DVDs using my A20 and PS3 and they do a decent job of upconverting the 720 x 480 image, but it still looks like crap.

Non-anamorphic DVDs do not upconvert well at all.

HD Goofnut
02-09-2011, 12:39 PM
Non-anamorphic DVDs do not upconvert well at all.

Yeah, you're right about that.

Lee Stewart
05-10-2011, 12:19 AM
Finally today, we've got a little something for you Trekkies. Consider it very Rumor Mill-worthy, as nothing has been officially announced (though that may change soon - more in a minute). But a lot of you have been asking us if Star Trek: The Next Generation - Remastered is ever going to happen. We've mentioned previously that tests on the feasibility of the project have been on-going at CBS for some time, and one of the key concerns has been cost. (Click here and scroll down a bit.) Well, today we've got an update for you...

As some of you may be aware, a few months ago Netflix signed a non-exclusive deal with CBS allowing them to digitally stream the entire Star Trek library to their customers, along with popular ancillary titles like MacGyver. Well, that arrangement definitely tripped our sensors. Not only is that financial incentive for TNG Remastered to move forward, but the fact that J.J. Abrams' big-screen Trek sequel is likely to start shooting in September (for theatrical release next year) provides a sufficient marketing/cross-promotional incentive too. So after several months of looking into this, our industry sources have finally begun hinting that TNG Remastered IS moving forward and that Netflix (and possibly Paramount's Epix cable channel, which has a strong relationship with the streaming service) may be the first place you'll finally see it - in HD - starting sometime in the fall. Meanwhile, SD TNG episodes will begin appearing on Netflix in July. Trek Movie posted this a month ago:

"Netflix confirmed they will be streaming every episode of every season for all five live-action Star Trek series: the original Star Trek, Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Star Trek: Voyager, and Star Trek: Enterprise. TOS, TNG, Voyager and Enterprise will all become available on July 1st. DS9 will launch on October 1st. TOS and Enterprise will be available in HD."

While Deep Space Nine and Voyager are unlikely to generate the kind of revenue to justify a Remastered redo effort (and Enterprise is already available in HD), we believe a high-definition film scan of The Next Generation is very likely in the cards for the entire series run, along with the requisite digitally-upgraded effects. Of course, in addition to syndication and streaming, the end result of all this might be a Next Generation: Remastered Blu-ray release down the line. So if all goes well, you could be spinning Picard and Data on disc in glorious HD by this time next year. In any case, we'll post additional updates on this as they come in. Our best guess: Watch for official news to break at Comic-Con in July.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

Super XP
05-10-2011, 09:33 AM
That is wonderful news... Finally Star Trek TNG may be coming to High Def. :)

dangerdoc
09-29-2011, 07:26 AM
ST TNG coming to blu-ray. All from film with SE being updated.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/show/CBS/Disc_Announcements/Paramount/Star_Trek_The_Next_Generation_Blu-ray_Bound_in_2012/7758

rcoleman11
09-29-2011, 08:43 PM
This debunks the earlier posts by Dare and Lee Stewart that The Next Generation would never make it to Blu-ray.

HD Goofnut
09-30-2011, 07:09 AM
This debunks the earlier posts by Dare and Lee Stewart that The Next Generation would never make it to Blu-ray.

Don't you know? What Lee says is always fact, at least in his eyes. He'll figure that out about the present home 3D model over the next couple years too.

Lee Stewart
09-30-2011, 12:42 PM
This debunks the earlier posts by Dare and Lee Stewart that The Next Generation would never make it to Blu-ray.

When they release all 178 episodes - then get back to me will you.

Lee Stewart
09-30-2011, 12:43 PM
Don't you know? What Lee says is always fact, at least in his eyes. He'll figure that out about the present home 3D model over the next couple years too.

LOL - and won't you be surprised when you are proven dead wrong.

HD Goofnut
09-30-2011, 02:56 PM
LOL - and won't you be surprised when you are proven dead wrong.

If glasses are here to stay with home 3D then the masses are dumber than I thought.

Super XP
09-30-2011, 04:47 PM
Don't you know? What Lee says is always fact, at least in his eyes. He'll figure that out about the present home 3D model over the next couple years too.
3D is already a dead duck IMO.
Anyway TNG on High Def, awesome, though I hope we can buy the complete series for one simple price and not all 7 seasons spanned accross a year or so, killing our wallet...

dangerdoc
09-30-2011, 07:16 PM
When they release all 178 episodes - then get back to me will you.

I'm thinking even without blu-ray, there may be adequate financial incentive to remaster the whole series in HD. It may revitalize the syndication market for the show.

Once in HD there should be a BD market, after all they released an even older STOS.

Lee Stewart
09-30-2011, 08:57 PM
If glasses are here to stay with home 3D then the masses are dumber than I thought.

To do it right, glassesless 3D (Autostereoscopic 3D) is proving to be not only very expensive, but also limited in both quality and flexibility. Once people understand this, instead of the preconcieved notions they have for what an Auto 3D display looks like (very few have ever seen one), you may find the glasses based 3DTV will be that much more popular.

When something costs more - a lot more - and delivers far less, how much is the small inconvience like wearing glasses worth to the consumer?

HD Goofnut
09-30-2011, 11:01 PM
To do it right, glassesless 3D (Autostereoscopic 3D) is proving to be not only very expensive, but also limited in both quality and flexibility. Once people understand this, instead of the preconcieved notions they have for what an Auto 3D display looks like (very few have ever seen one), you may find the glasses based 3DTV will be that much more popular.

When something costs more - a lot more - and delivers far less, how much is the small inconvience like wearing glasses worth to the consumer?

This is coming from the same guy that wants to count every 3D display sold as being used for 3D, but doesn't count the PS3 as a BD player. Yeah, you never have double standards.:rolleyes:

Super XP
10-01-2011, 07:54 AM
The only reason I would buy a 3D LED HDTV is the fact that the 2D is a lot better than regular HDTV's 2D. I assume they've put a lot of time and effort in constructing the 3D HDTV, which makes 2D even better....

Lee Stewart
10-01-2011, 03:11 PM
This is coming from the same guy that wants to count every 3D display sold as being used for 3D, but doesn't count the PS3 as a BD player. Yeah, you never have double standards.:rolleyes:

Nope - I do count the PS3 as a BD playback device.

But you are :offtopic which is your usual MO when you are wrong. :haha:

Lee Stewart
10-01-2011, 03:13 PM
The only reason I would buy a 3D LED HDTV is the fact that the 2D is a lot better than regular HDTV's 2D. I assume they've put a lot of time and effort in constructing the 3D HDTV, which makes 2D even better....

Only Panasonic does with their VT plasma series. The only difference between an HDTV and a 3DTV is about $20 in parts, specifically the emitter.

HD Goofnut
10-01-2011, 08:05 PM
Only Panasonic does with their VT plasma series. The only difference between an HDTV and a 3DTV is about $20 in parts, specifically the emitter.

Too bad the price difference in store is not $20. In fact it's not even close. I can get a 60" 240hz LED 2D brand name HDTV for less than $2000, but if it's the same exact HDTV with 3D it ends up costing $500 more.

Super XP
10-01-2011, 09:14 PM
Only Panasonic does with their VT plasma series. The only difference between an HDTV and a 3DTV is about $20 in parts, specifically the emitter.
Interesting, didn't know that.

Lee Stewart
10-01-2011, 09:55 PM
Too bad the price difference in store is not $20. In fact it's not even close. I can get a 60" 240hz LED 2D brand name HDTV for less than $2000, but if it's the same exact HDTV with 3D it ends up costing $500 more.

That is up to the CEM. It is was it is. We both know manfacturing cost has little to do with what is charged.

iDarren
10-02-2011, 07:01 AM
Ha ha good to see you kids are still up to your old antics :D

Lee Stewart
11-16-2011, 12:01 PM
Star Trek: The Next Generation Blu-ray

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Star-Trek-The-Next-Generation-Blu-ray/30189/

Lee Stewart
11-16-2011, 05:17 PM
Also this afternoon, for those of you who may be excited about CBS's forthcoming BD release of Star Trek: The Next Generation in HD, there's a new preview trailer that reveals a little more new HD footage, including a couple new and improved effects shots. Be sure to watch it in 720p resolution for the full effect. As many of you know, TV Shows on DVD has also posted word that a few shots in select episodes may not get the fill HD upgrade because - occasionally - the original film elements are proving difficult to find. But the hope is that as CBS continues combing the Paramount film vault for future seasons, at least some of that material will be located eventually, having simply been mislaid.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents