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Seeking Opinions

hidog1
05-28-2005, 10:48 AM
Im seriously considering adding a fairly large space (36X17) onto the house that will serve 50/50 as a Library on one end and a movie watching music listening space on the other. The spaces will be defined, but not divided with a wall. Adding the space is a financial no-brainer as it will easily add the cost of the addition to the value of the house and my house (like most people) is my largest asset. The system I have now (44 DLP RP Monitor, 5.1 surround) is in a room with a lot of natural light. It provides a great HD picture and is versatile for movies, music and broadcast television. I bought the 44 DLP because it was the largest screen I could find that fit into the family room entertainment system cabinet that I had built. I plan on leaving the DLP in place and moving the 5.1 system to the new room.

In this new space I was hoping to get more of a big screen experience. Originally, I was thinking of a space with good natural lighting but with the ability to sufficiently darken the room for HT via a Front Projection System. The more I think about this, the less I like the idea of sitting in a darkened room just to facilitate movie viewing. I cant imagine enjoying a live sporting event in a true (dark cave) Home Theatre environment. Ill get to the point. In looking at the big screen TVs the viewing distance requirements seem to negate much of the big screen effect. If you sit 8 from the 44 screen but 12 from the 61 screen is the effective viewing screen size that different? Sorry for the rambling long post but Im looking for feedback from people who have HT with FP and large RP televisions.

Thanks,

RSawdey
05-28-2005, 01:56 PM
As you're thinking, it's the percieved size - the percentage of the visual field - which gives that 'theater like' feeling... the way the 'optimum' viewing position is calculated is that point where you can see every little detail, but none of the 'structure' of the image like raster or screendoor... this gives the largest apparent image. Due to the way our vision works, as we move further back we lose the ability to see those details, they run together, effectively reducing the resolution. Since the number of pixels on the screen is the same for your 44" and 61", the pixels on the larger screen are bigger & can be seen from a greater distance. The optimal distance for 720p is about 1.5 times the diagonal of the TV... which is 5.5' for your 44", or about 8' for the 61". From 12' you could have a screen up to 96" and still not be too close - perhaps you could consider a closer seating arrangement, or a larger screen... Sony has a 70" LCD RPTV & Samsung will have a DLP out soon in the same size that's 1080p/60...

CatManDoo
05-28-2005, 02:53 PM
Im seriously considering adding a fairly large space (36X17) onto the house that will serve 50/50 as a Library on one end and a movie watching music listening space on the other. The spaces will be defined, but not divided with a wall. Adding the space is a financial no-brainer as it will easily add the cost of the addition to the value of the house and my house (like most people) is my largest asset. The system I have now (44 DLP RP Monitor, 5.1 surround) is in a room with a lot of natural light. It provides a great HD picture and is versatile for movies, music and broadcast television. I bought the 44 DLP because it was the largest screen I could find that fit into the family room entertainment system cabinet that I had built. I plan on leaving the DLP in place and moving the 5.1 system to the new room.

In this new space I was hoping to get more of a big screen experience. Originally, I was thinking of a space with good natural lighting but with the ability to sufficiently darken the room for HT via a Front Projection System. The more I think about this, the less I like the idea of sitting in a darkened room just to facilitate movie viewing. I cant imagine enjoying a live sporting event in a true (dark cave) Home Theatre environment. Ill get to the point. In looking at the big screen TVs the viewing distance requirements seem to negate much of the big screen effect. If you sit 8 from the 44 screen but 12 from the 61 screen is the effective viewing screen size that different? Sorry for the rambling long post but Im looking for feedback from people who have HT with FP and large RP televisions.

Thanks,
Yes,slightly long, but the details are important. One thing I didn't hear was budget? An addition that size will cost lots of Franklins, so would you want to skimp on the TV if that's half the purpose of this new addition? If not, then the 70" Sony Qualia 006 might not be out of the question. The MSRP used to be 13k :eek: , but it can be had for a couple grand less than that. Also, consider windows and window shade options that will allow lots of natural light but let you darken the room too if necessary. And consider when you'll be watching movies. If it's during the day, then you may need room darkening for maximum effect. But if it's at night, mother nature will take care of that for you. :)
Also, in the past I have argued against the need to sit REALLY close to your set. It's unrealistic to sit 4 or 6 feet from a set just to watch football. But I will agree with the people who say 1.5 times screen size is optimal viewing distance for HOME THEATER. If you're watching movies and want to feel like you're in the scene, then yes by all means go big. But I don't think it's a crime to sit 8-10 feet from a 34"-42" set when you have a dozen people over for NFL Sunday viewing. IMHO.

hidog1
05-28-2005, 03:03 PM
As you're thinking, it's the percieved size - the percentage of the visual field - which gives that 'theater like' feeling... the way the 'optimum' viewing position is calculated is that point where you can see every little detail, but none of the 'structure' of the image like raster or screendoor... this gives the largest apparent image. Due to the way our vision works, as we move further back we lose the ability to see those details, they run together, effectively reducing the resolution. Since the number of pixels on the screen is the same for your 44" and 61", the pixels on the larger screen are bigger & can be seen from a greater distance. The optimal distance for 720p is about 1.5 times the diagonal of the TV... which is 5.5' for your 44", or about 8' for the 61". From 12' you could have a screen up to 96" and still not be too close - perhaps you could consider a closer seating arrangement, or a larger screen... Sony has a 70" LCD RPTV & Samsung will have a DLP out soon in the same size that's 1080p/60...

The good news is I have total control over the seating distance so thank you, those calculations will be helpful. I have seen the Sony (in store) and the largest Samsungs. I seem to be one of those people not susceptible to Rainbow Effect but I did notice the Screen Door Effect on the Sony and found it annoying. I also felt the DLP displays provide more natural colors, especially on faces. Based upon that, I'm leaning toward DLP and Samsung. I understand the Hitachi Director Series LCD displays are very good but I have not actually seen one.

Also, I have been told that unless I play computer games (and I do not) there will be little or no advantage to going beyond 720P for HD TV and movie viewing. Im taking that as good news as once 1080P is out 720P devices should be getting cheaper. Just trying to avoid the "bleeding edge" of this technology.

rbinck
05-28-2005, 06:21 PM
As CatMan noted you didn't talk about budget, but assuming you got about $20k or so, I'll throw this option out.

A couple of weeks ago I went through a training session for DWIN. Specifically their highest end system they call the DuoVision, dual display entertainment system. It consists of a very high end video processor, a plasma display monitor and a high end projector.

Their thinking is there are people who have a dual need situation where they need the brightness of a plasma by day and the size and movie like atmosphere of a front projection system when the room is darkened. The idea is to have a drop down screen that drops in front of the plasma. Alternately the system can be used to have a two room solution, such as a theater and a bedroom.

The plasma is outsourced (DWIN dosen't make it) with no video processing in it at all, so it is just a monitor.... no scaler, video noise, or anything else. Same with the projector which they do make.

All of the scaling, noise filtering, line doubling, de-interlacing, etc is done by the separate processor box. Here is a link for more information: http://www.dwin.com/products/dualdisplay.htm

Plasma displays: http://www.dwin.com/products/plasmapro.htm
Projectors: http://www.dwin.com/products/transvision4.htm
Just use the projector information not the processor.

hidog1
05-29-2005, 08:20 AM
As CatMan noted you didn't talk about budget, but assuming you got about $20k or so, I'll throw this option out.

A couple of weeks ago I went through a training session for DWIN. Specifically their highest end system they call the DuoVision, dual display entertainment system. It consists of a very high end video processor, a plasma display monitor and a high end projector.

Their thinking is there are people who have a dual need situation where they need the brightness of a plasma by day and the size and movie like atmosphere of a front projection system when the room is darkened. The idea is to have a drop down screen that drops in front of the plasma. Alternately the system can be used to have a two room solution, such as a theater and a bedroom.

The plasma is outsourced (DWIN dosen't make it) with no video processing in it at all, so it is just a monitor.... no scaler, video noise, or anything else. Same with the projector which they do make.

All of the scaling, noise filtering, line doubling, de-interlacing, etc is done by the separate processor box. Here is a link for more information: http://www.dwin.com/products/dualdisplay.htm

Plasma displays: http://www.dwin.com/products/plasmapro.htm
Projectors: http://www.dwin.com/products/transvision4.htm
Just use the projector information not the processor.

The concept is interesting but DWIN? Spending $20K on an small manufacturers product with OEM hardware doesn't sound very appealing. I think the 70" DLP or LCD route is the better one for me. I have issues with plasma burn in and projector room light conditions. If I push the budget that high I can have my pick in the DLP/LCD world and have a lot of $ left over for popcorn ;)

borromini
05-29-2005, 10:16 AM
...The more I think about this, the less I like the idea of sitting in a darkened room just to facilitate movie viewing. I cant imagine enjoying a live sporting event in a true (dark cave) Home Theatre environment...
Setting rbinck's good suggestion aside for a moment, I've had an FP for over a year and it's a common misconception that the room has to be a "dark cave" in order to enjoy the theater-like experience. You have options with available HT FPs in terms of lumen output that can work with controlled ambient light. Since the room is being built, you also have the ability to install effective lighting systems with dimmable controls and window shading devices to provide the ideal balance of controlled ambient light and a brightly projected image. I hosted a superbowl party this year, the room was well lit and the image was fantastic. If the addition was a financial no-brainer, then you also might consider using Sony's new black screen technology that allows significant direct ambient lighting introduced without sacrificing image. Is it nice to have a darkened environment for movies? Absolutely and no time better than at night, but watching other HDTV programs like sports or Discovery HD do not rely on a darkened room for enjoyment. It would be a shame to have a room that big built and not take advantage of what FPs have to offer. No knock against RPTVs or flat panels but how can you compete with 100" diagonal or greater for the price of around $2k to $4k for the FP in a room of this size with so much opportunity to customize the lighting? The theater experience is truly amazing when compared to the latest 70" RPTVs...not to mention that there's no viewing angle limitations. :)

hidog1
05-29-2005, 10:26 AM
Yes,slightly long, but the details are important. One thing I didn't hear was budget? An addition that size will cost lots of Franklins, so would you want to skimp on the TV if that's half the purpose of this new addition? If not, then the 70" Sony Qualia 006 might not be out of the question. The MSRP used to be 13k :eek: , but it can be had for a couple grand less than that. Also, consider windows and window shade options that will allow lots of natural light but let you darken the room too if necessary. And consider when you'll be watching movies. If it's during the day, then you may need room darkening for maximum effect. But if it's at night, mother nature will take care of that for you. :)
Also, in the past I have argued against the need to sit REALLY close to your set. It's unrealistic to sit 4 or 6 feet from a set just to watch football. But I will agree with the people who say 1.5 times screen size is optimal viewing distance for HOME THEATER. If you're watching movies and want to feel like you're in the scene, then yes by all means go big. But I don't think it's a crime to sit 8-10 feet from a 34"-42" set when you have a dozen people over for NFL Sunday viewing. IMHO.


Thanks for the input, missed it earlier. You are correct, the addition will be expensive. I will not "skimp" on the video in fact I'll probably go overboard (seems to be my MO). The projector just seems too limiting to me. Maybe If I was Bill Gates and lived in a 40,000 sq ft compound a dedicated home theatre would be nice. My reality is somewhat different and I can't get past the dark look, basement feel of a lot of the HT setups I see on this and other sites. At this moment it is gong to be BIG screen DLP or LCD.

hidog1
05-29-2005, 11:17 AM
Setting rbinck's good suggestion aside for a moment, I've had an FP for over a year and it's a common misconception that the room has to be a "dark cave" in order to enjoy the theater-like experience. You have options with available HT FPs in terms of lumen output that can work with controlled ambient light. Since the room is being built, you also have the ability to install effective lighting systems with dimmable controls and window shading devices to provide the ideal balance of controlled ambient light and a brightly projected image. I hosted a superbowl party this year, the room was well lit and the image was fantastic. If the addition was a financial no-brainer, then you also might consider using Sony's new black screen technology that allows significant direct ambient lighting introduced without sacrificing image. Is it nice to have a darkened environment for movies? Absolutely and no time better than at night, but watching other HDTV programs like sports or Discovery HD do not rely on a darkened room for enjoyment. It would be a shame to have a room that big built and not take advantage of what FPs have to offer. No knock against RPTVs or flat panels but how can you compete with 100" diagonal or greater for the price of around $2k to $4k for the FP in a room of this size with so much opportunity to customize the lighting? The theater experience is truly amazing when compared to the latest 70" RPTVs...not to mention that there's no viewing angle limitations. :)


Damn you for coming up with a well reasoned logical counter to my Dark Room theory. I had just decided to stick with DLP or LCD. But seriously, I may just be taking the easy way out of my dilemma. The research necessary to properly configure the room (light wise) plus the long run DVI/HDMI cables from my video sources (HD Cable box/DVD) to the Projector seem daunting to say the least. Im also not ready to turn the project over to a professional HT company. I kinda want to do it (at least from a project management stand point) and save some money in doing so (to help ease the guilt of spending so much on an unnecessary indulgence). Well off the couch, your comments are much appreciated. I need to think on this one a bit.

borromini
05-29-2005, 03:49 PM
With today's information available on the Internet, there's no reason for you to hire a professional installer. The lighting and digital cabling is no longer complex either. Like you said, you may just be taking the easy way out of this, but are you going to get the ideal experience that's possible in a room of that size? :)

hidog1
05-29-2005, 09:18 PM
With today's information available on the Internet, there's no reason for you to hire a professional installer. The lighting and digital cabling is no longer complex either. Like you said, you may just be taking the easy way out of this, but are you going to get the ideal experience that's possible in a room of that size? :)

Good point, when I split the space I will end up with a maximum of 16 wide X 18 deep I'm thinking of a U shaped sectional rather than theatre seating so a 60" or 70" screen size may be about right. I really need to lay it out and work the numbers. Thank you again for the feedback.

rbinck
05-30-2005, 03:40 PM
The concept is interesting but DWIN? Spending $20K on an small manufacturers product with OEM hardware doesn't sound very appealing. I think the 70" DLP or LCD route is the better one for me. I have issues with plasma burn in and projector room light conditions. If I push the budget that high I can have my pick in the DLP/LCD world and have a lot of $ left over for popcorn http://highdefforum.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


No where did I recommend DWIN, but rather used their system to show a consept. Actually before I got too carried away with the size of the company, I'd get some reading on the quality of the company. McIntosh comes to mind here and a lot of big companies OEM their equipment.

My point was there are people who are putting both a plasma and a projection system in the same room to accomodate specific lighting situations. Who am I to assume you wern't one of these people with plenty of budget?

hidog1
05-30-2005, 04:17 PM
No where did I recommend DWIN, but rather used their system to show a consept. Actually before I got too carried away with the size of the company, I'd get some reading on the quality of the company. McIntosh comes to mind here and a lot of big companies OEM their equipment.

My point was there are people who are putting both a plasma and a projection system in the same room to accomodate specific lighting situations. Who am I to assume you wern't one of these people with plenty of budget?

Frankly, the tone of your response was insulting. I appreciate the information you provided and I was commenting on the combining two specific technologies (Plasma and FP) that I have issues with did not work for me. Budget is an issue for most people and I have not identified a specific one for the video components for this project. My MO with this type of technology is to spend as little as possible to get what I want, as it will likely be obsolete in 3-5 years. On the other hand spending 10-13K on a display that knocks the socks off isnt out of the question, but $20K probably is. I am still looking for feedback from projection, and large DLP and LCD display users like the excellent feedback I received from Borromini.

rbinck
05-30-2005, 05:13 PM
Is there a particular phrase that set the tone for you? I didn't mean to be insulting.

hidog1
05-30-2005, 08:27 PM
Is there a particular phrase that set the tone for you? I didn't mean to be insulting.

You know lets just drop it. Thats the problem with e-mail. Really easy to misinterpret what someone is saying. I do appreciate what you and the other seasoned members of this forum are doing for people like me who are trying to get a handle on rather complicated technology. I have gained knowledge that will be very helpful in putting together a HT system and I will continue (assuming Im not excommunicated) to participate. Thanks again for your comments.

borromini
06-01-2005, 04:40 PM
...I have gained knowledge that will be very helpful in putting together a HT system and I will continue (assuming Im not excommunicated) to participate...
As with the Roman Catholic Church of ye olden days, excommunication can be overlooked with a generous contribution to forum moderators...or me :D

hidog1
06-01-2005, 05:21 PM
As with the Roman Catholic Church of ye olden days, excommunication can be overlooked with a generous contribution to forum moderators...or me :D

I may buy a HDF T shirt

ja2935
06-01-2005, 06:44 PM
Frankly, the tone of your response was insulting.

Frankly, the tone of yours was too....

hidog1
06-01-2005, 08:23 PM
Frankly, the tone of yours was too....

Actually, I wasn't seeking your opinion (see thread title).....but thanks for sharing

ja2935
06-01-2005, 09:18 PM
Actually, I wasn't seeking your opinion (see thread title).....but thanks for sharing
You're welcome - in an open forum like this you will get opinions whether you ask for them or not.....

hidog1
06-05-2005, 01:03 AM
You're welcome - in an open forum like this you will get opinions whether you ask for them or not.....

Well ja, you know what they say about opinions. Would ja like mine?