High Def Forum
Thank you for visiting. This is our website archive. Please visit our main website by clicking the logo above.

Is The BDA Behind The Rash Of Retail Pullbacks on HD DVD?

Lee Stewart
04-03-2008, 10:18 AM
Private Poll

Yes . . . I am 100% speculating this conspiracy:D

1. Has happened in a very short time period.

2. Most people buy their HDM at a B & M store

3. Like HDM? Now only alternative is to buy a BD player

4. Prices on BD SAL's have gone up recently

5. "Incentives" are nothing new to this industry

6. Nielsen numbers have gone from 28% to 18% once the "firesales" ended.

fryet
04-03-2008, 10:24 AM
Yes, HD DVD would not have lost the High Def format war if they did not have to compete against Blu-ray. Therefore the BDA is responsible for HD DVD's demise.

anythingwt
04-03-2008, 10:24 AM
While I know the BDA doesn't have everything to do with it, i'm sure they are doing what they can to help streamline the process. They want the least confusion in the market, and they want that ASAP. The sooner the consumer understands that there is now only one HD movie format, the faster BD can grow.

MikeRox
04-03-2008, 10:36 AM
You forgot the ol' "I don't care!" option :p but I'll vote for it anyway. :thumbsup:

I'm selfsih though, HD DVD officially finishes on monday here really coz I ain't interested in Paramounts 18 month old catalogue releases finally hitting.

Bravestime
04-03-2008, 10:42 AM
I believe Sony/BD receive more "credit" for these conspiracy theories than they deserve. It's real easy to point the finger at them, but the real question is can you prove it? If this and others can be proven, I will then become a believer, burn, Sony, burn! :rolleyes:

I do believe, as the previously posted, that sooner HD-DVD disappears from consumers sight the better BD will be in their growth.

Nikopol
04-03-2008, 10:56 AM
no, Sony and the BDA are not responsible for ALL the misery in the world. :lol:

Lee Stewart
04-03-2008, 11:03 AM
I believe Sony/BD receive more "credit" for these conspiracy theories than they deserve. It's real easy to point the finger at them, but the real question is can you prove it? If this and others can be proven, I will then become a believer, burn, Sony, burn! :rolleyes:

I do believe, as the previously posted, that sooner HD-DVD disappears from consumers sight the better BD will be in their growth.

I offered circumstantial evidence:D

GLOW
04-03-2008, 11:11 AM
What a ridiculous poll. This is almost as bad as the guy that said Sony had the yakuza force Toshiba to kill off HD DVD. :rolleyes:

And the fact that this is a private poll on a forum like ours is even more ridiculous. If "No" wins the poll I'll be shocked.

Lee Stewart
04-03-2008, 11:14 AM
What a ridiculous poll. This is almost as bad as the guy that said Sony had the yakuza force Toshiba to kill off HD DVD. :rolleyes:

And the fact that this is a private poll on a forum like ours is even more ridiculous. If "No" wins the poll I'll be shocked.

I have offered 6 "bullets" of circumstantial evidence.:D

ALL my polls are private.

kamspy
04-03-2008, 11:39 AM
This is like doing a poll in a confederate advocate forum and asking if the north winning is the root of all the country's problems.

Lee Stewart
04-03-2008, 12:00 PM
This is like doing a poll in a confederate advocate forum and asking if the north winning is the root of all the country's problems.

So when Betamax lost and Sony pulled the plug on the format. . . . All retailers sent exsiting stock back (prerecorded movies) in less than 2 months?

How about LD?

kamspy
04-03-2008, 12:12 PM
So when Betamax lost and Sony pulled the plug on the format. . . . All retailers sent exsiting stock back (prerecorded movies) in less than 2 months?

How about LD?

Dude Lee:

I'm 28. I don't remember much about Betamax other than it only had one window and the tape was smaller than VHS. The only memory I have of LD back when it was selling was my rich uncle showing it off at all the family gatherings and playing Apocalypse Now WAAAY too loud. He just kept playing the Helicopter scene over and over again.:what: :confused:

I guess my others uncles and dad thought it was cool. I just thought, wow, that's a big ass CD with a movie on it:eek:


So did they? BB and CC are electronics stores. They sell electronics. I think much of it is not wanting to cause confusion among uninformed customers, and they want more shelf space for BD because they are pushing it now.

Go to your local BB and act like your about to buy a TV. I did a few days ago and the salesman was itching to sell me on a BD player with it.

HD Goofnut
04-03-2008, 12:15 PM
I voted yes because it makes all probable sense that the BDA would want to do this. Is it possible they didn't do this? Of course, but I still think it is more probable than not.

Lee Stewart
04-03-2008, 12:19 PM
Dude Lee:

I'm 28. I don't remember much about Betamax other than it only had one window and the tape was smaller than VHS. The only memory I have of LD back when it was selling was my rich uncle showing it off at all the family gatherings and playing Apocalypse Now WAAAY too loud. He just kept playing the Helicopter scene over and over again.:what: :confused:

I guess my others uncles and dad thought it was cool. I just thought, wow, that's a big ass CD with a movie on it:eek:


So did they? BB and CC are electronics stores. They sell electronics. I think much of it is not wanting to cause confusion among uninformed customers, and they want more shelf space for BD because they are pushing it now.

Go to your local BB and act like your about to buy a TV. I did a few days ago and the salesman was itching to sell me on a BD player with it.

The answer to the questions I posed is . . . no. That didn't happen

anythingwt
04-03-2008, 01:00 PM
Go to your local BB and act like your about to buy a TV. I did a few days ago and the salesman was itching to sell me on a BD player with it.

I'm not sure why they would be pushing to sell a TV or a BD player with a TV. BB employees that have came through here have confirmed that they are not commissioned on sales.

kamspy
04-03-2008, 01:04 PM
I'm not sure why they would be pushing to sell a TV or a BD player with a TV. BB employees that have came through here have confirmed that they are not commissioned on sales.

They're not commissioned but they get incentives for certain selling certain things. I'd bet BD players are on the incentive list.

The incentives are usually gift cards, vacation hours, or a big markdown a big purchase.

Joe_news
04-03-2008, 01:04 PM
Aside from the HD-DVD fanbase here, when it was announced the formate died most people I've talked to dropped support then and there. Because if their player ever died, well then their movies are unplayable. With movies not selling @ B & M and everyone in the retail business wanting the confusion/waiting games to stop ASAP its of little wonder why its been pulled so fast.

bruceames
04-03-2008, 01:10 PM
I voted yes because I found it odd that a Best Buy spokeperson would say that they will stock HD DVD as long as new product comes out....and then a week later they decide to pull the plug suddenly and completely. The suddenness of it and the $50 gift card for every player are an obvious tie in, and even Best Buy isn't stupid enough to give away $10 million dollars.

Lee Stewart
04-03-2008, 01:16 PM
I voted yes because I found it odd that a Best Buy spokeperson would say that they will stock HD DVD as long as new product comes out....and then a week later they decide to pull the plug suddenly and completely. The suddenness of it and the $50 gift card for every player are an obvious tie in, and even Best Buy isn't stupid enough to give away $10 million dollars.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x66/LeeAStewart/bullseye.jpg

neal77
04-03-2008, 02:56 PM
I think the BDA along with the studios and retailers are trying to get rid of HD DVD as soon as they can and then they can all pretend that HD DVD never existed.

MikeRox
04-03-2008, 03:04 PM
I think the ones trying to pretend HD DVD never existed are Toshiba.

ssjLancer
04-03-2008, 03:08 PM
Retailers and the industry as a whole have always favoured BD over the low profit margins of HDDVD. And its in their best interest to stop the confusion as soon as possible(making it known without a doubt that theres only one HD format alive)

So I say no.

Lee Stewart
04-03-2008, 03:18 PM
Retailers and the industry as a whole have always favoured BD over the low profit margins of HDDVD. And its in their best interest to stop the confusion as soon as possible(making it known without a doubt that theres only one HD format alive)

So I say no.

You mean there is a higher profit selling a BD movie for $29.00 then there is for selling a HD DVD movie for $29.00?

:confused:

ssjLancer
04-03-2008, 03:28 PM
You mean there is a higher profit selling a BD movie for $29.00 then there is for selling a HD DVD movie for $29.00?

:confused:You mean the HDDVD movies at $15.
And they sell players too.

Hitachi65SWX20B
04-03-2008, 03:28 PM
now that Lee has quoted ssjlancer, I seen what he wrote. You think Retailers are the businesses reaping high profit margins on BD? If so then you need to think again! The CEM's and the BDA are the businesses reaping the rewards. Why would any CEM want to give their high profit margins to BB and the like? BB Might get something better then SD DVD players on the mark up but Not much more if any!

anythingwt
04-03-2008, 04:10 PM
I think the ones trying to pretend HD DVD never existed are Toshiba.

Yeah but their wallets will be reminding them for a while I'm sure. Who knows how long it could take for toshiba to make up for their losses.

anythingwt
04-03-2008, 04:13 PM
You mean the HDDVD movies at $15.
And they sell players too.

HD DVDs never sold at $15 unless there was a BOGO sale or something of the like. If anything, BD had more $15 titles available, as they ran software sales much more often.

As for the players, it is much more expensive to produce a BD player, so the profit margins between HD DVD and BD are the same I'm sure.

ssjLancer
04-03-2008, 04:21 PM
HD DVDs never sold at $15 unless there was a BOGO sale or something of the like. If anything, BD had more $15 titles available, as they ran software sales much more often.

As for the players, it is much more expensive to produce a BD player, so the profit margins between HD DVD and BD are the same I'm sure.Im talking about now that the HDDVD titles are on clearance.

And some dealers at AVS confirmed(in 2007) that they were almost making nothing on HDDVD players. Plus there was much more selection with different brands for BD.

PFC5
04-03-2008, 04:31 PM
I voted yes because of the higher costs of scrapping these movies versus selling them at a discount (incentives to retailers) in that other thread.

The tax savings for the write offs for the studios are substantially less than selling them at half price and writing off the balance. Being a bean counter helps me conclude there is more to this than meets the eye of what we know.

It could be that the studios would rather eat the costs now to "clear the air/confusion", but why would that include Universal & Paramount that still have no announced BD titles coming?

For the record, i don't blame the BDA companies for doing this if they are doing this, but when you look at the costs of scrapping all the HD DVD inventory versus half price sales, it just doesn't make financial sense for the studios to do this.

ssjLancer
04-03-2008, 04:36 PM
I voted yes because of the higher costs of scrapping these movies versus selling them at a discount (incentives to retailers) in that other thread.

The tax savings for the write offs for the studios are substantially less than selling them at half price and writing off the balance. Being a bean counter helps me conclude there is more to this than meets the eye of what we know.

It could be that the studios would rather eat the costs now to "clear the air/confusion", but why would that include Universal & Paramount that still have no announced BD titles coming?

For the record, i don't blame the BDA companies for doing this if they are doing this, but when you look at the costs of scrapping all the HD DVD inventory versus half price sales, it just doesn't make financial sense for the studios to do this.Was this a decision by studios or retailers?
Of course studios would rather have them sold at a discount, but do retailers want to give them the shelf space?

Lee Stewart
04-03-2008, 04:39 PM
Was this a decision by studios or retailers?
Of course studios would rather have them sold at a discount, but do retailers want to give them the shelf space?

Only if they are selling.

PFC5
04-03-2008, 04:40 PM
Was this a decision by studios or retailers?
Of course studios would rather have them sold at a discount, but do retailers want to give them the shelf space?

Retailers would not screw over studios for all the obvious reasons. The main reason they would not want to burn the studios off the top of my head is:

It is well known that movies get people into the stores so they can buy something else "While they are there".

We may never know the true reason the HD DVDs are disappearing, but I never recalled such a thing EVER happening before. Do you? ;)

ssjLancer
04-03-2008, 04:43 PM
We may never know the true reason the HD DVDs are disappearing, but I never recalled such a thing EVER happening before. Do you? ;)I think its cause HDDVD died so fast. Even failed formats usually last a good 4-5 years.

PFC5
04-03-2008, 04:48 PM
I think its cause HDDVD died so fast. Even failed formats usually last a good 4-5 years.

Exactly!

That is WHY I think there is more to this than meets the eye. I guess it really doesn't matter in the long run though. If i buy a HD movie now I buy it on BD if possible going forward now that I have a second BD player for my bedroom.

anythingwt
04-03-2008, 04:58 PM
Exactly!

That is WHY I think there is more to this than meets the eye. I guess it really doesn't matter in the long run though. If i buy a HD movie now I buy it on BD if possible going forward now that I have a second BD player for my bedroom.

What other BD player did you end up getting? Last time I heard, you were stuck with just the PS3 in you boys room because it was a gift for him for gaming.

bruceames
04-03-2008, 05:11 PM
Retailers would not screw over studios for all the obvious reasons. The main reason they would not want to burn the studios off the top of my head is:

It is well known that movies get people into the stores so they can buy something else "While they are there".

We may never know the true reason the HD DVDs are disappearing, but I never recalled such a thing EVER happening before. Do you? ;)

Yeah, I think it doesn't matter anyway at this point. If the BDA financed it and orchestrated the whole thing, so what? It doesn't affect anything going forward since it's either be Blu or be screwed. :lol:

anythingwt
04-03-2008, 05:19 PM
I voted yes because of the higher costs of scrapping these movies versus selling them at a discount (incentives to retailers) in that other thread.

The tax savings for the write offs for the studios are substantially less than selling them at half price and writing off the balance. Being a bean counter helps me conclude there is more to this than meets the eye of what we know.

It could be that the studios would rather eat the costs now to "clear the air/confusion", but why would that include Universal & Paramount that still have no announced BD titles coming?

For the record, i don't blame the BDA companies for doing this if they are doing this, but when you look at the costs of scrapping all the HD DVD inventory versus half price sales, it just doesn't make financial sense for the studios to do this.

That's my same stance, I actually mentioned this yesterday. It doesn't make any sense for the studios to take back the movies, destroy them, and write it off. Might as well sell them for dirt cheap, still make at least a bit of money on them, then just write off the loss if any.

They may be getting incentives from the BDA to clear up market confusion like you said.

Stew4HD
04-03-2008, 05:24 PM
I voted yes because there are still new releases coming. Why would BB and CC pass up sales? As PFC said, there has to be more than meets the eye.

hatt
04-03-2008, 05:35 PM
Let me see, hold onto a discontinued product and hope for the best or send it back and be done with it, and display current products that may build sales. That is a hard choice.:rolleyes: I'll have to vote no.

Lee Stewart
04-03-2008, 05:36 PM
Yeah, I think it doesn't matter anyway at this point. If the BDA financed it and orchestrated the whole thing, so what? It doesn't affect anything going forward since it's either be Blu or be screwed. :lol:

It's not my fault!



There was no news to post!



I had to post something!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

PFC5
04-03-2008, 05:36 PM
What other BD player did you end up getting? Last time I heard, you were stuck with just the PS3 in you boys room because it was a gift for him for gaming.

Well after the HD DVD died, my wife was convinced to keep the PS3 in the main viewing room, and I also was able to buy a brand new Sharp HP20u BD player for my bedroom for only $150.00, due to very lucky circumstances.

Long story short. I arranged to buy the store demo Samsung BD-P1200 BD player for $100.00 at a fairly local Sears store and it was tagged and held for me by a salesman. I told him I would be there within 2 hours and he was holding it.

When I got there he had already left for the night, and I asked for a manager when the idiot that I spoke to didn't even want to look for where it was being held. When the manager came and said he will try to find where he left it. I said I would be over looking at the new 52" Samsung LED display while he looked. ;)

After about 10 minutes, he came and told me that the salesman sold it to someone else just before he left for the night. He said he understood I made a special trip to the store to buy this so he offered me a brand new Sharp BD player for $150.00.

It was really great what the manager did to make me a happy customer, and they will likely get a lot more money from me in the future because of it.

Sometimes I just get luck. :D

Deja Vu
04-03-2008, 05:37 PM
Give me a break! There's no doubt in my mind The BDA wants HD DVD out of the way ASAP! With the price structure they want The BDA has its work cut out for it. Here's hoping Toshiba can get its super resolution DVD player out soon so I can junk my three BD players.

Cheers,

Grant

Chris Gerhard
04-03-2008, 05:37 PM
Aside from the HD-DVD fanbase here, when it was announced the formate died most people I've talked to dropped support then and there. Because if their player ever died, well then their movies are unplayable. With movies not selling @ B & M and everyone in the retail business wanting the confusion/waiting games to stop ASAP its of little wonder why its been pulled so fast.

Get with the forum program here. We are sure the BDA paid millions per HD DVD to have them pulled from stores. I don't know where you could get the idea that a retailer would decide on its own to discontinue carrying a product that never sold well, is going to be discontinued completely soon, and is often returned as unplayable on the purchasers DVD player. I can't see that at all, they must be getting paid off to drop HD DVD, nothing else could make sense.;)

Chris

Chris Gerhard
04-03-2008, 05:40 PM
Give me a break! There's no doubt in my mind The BDA wants HD DVD out of the way ASAP! With the price structure they want The BDA has its work cut out for it. Here's hoping Toshiba can get its super resolution DVD player out soon so I can junk my three BD players.

Cheers,

Grant

Yes, I agree completely.;)

hatt
04-03-2008, 05:42 PM
Give me a break! There's no doubt in my mind The BDA wants HD DVD out of the way ASAP! With the price structure they want The BDA has its work cut out for it. Here's hoping Toshiba can get its super resolution DVD player out soon so I can junk my three BD players.

Cheers,

Grant

I will pay shipping if you want to send them to me.

Deja Vu
04-03-2008, 05:45 PM
Well after the HD DVD died, my wife was convinced to keep the PS3 in the main viewing room, and I also was able to buy a brand new Sharp HP20u BD player for my bedroom for only $150.00, due to very lucky circumstances.

Long story short. I arranged to buy the store demo Samsung BD-P1200 BD player for $100.00 at a fairly local Sears store and it was tagged and held for me by a salesman. I told him I would be there within 2 hours and he was holding it.

When I got there he had already left for the night, and I asked for a manager when the idiot that I spoke to didn't even want to look for where it was being held. When the manager came and said he will try to find where he left it. I said I would be over looking at the new 52" Samsung LED display while he looked. ;)

After about 10 minutes, he came and told me that the salesman sold it to someone else just before he left for the night. He said he understood I made a special trip to the store to buy this so he offered me a brand new Sharp BD player for $150.00.

It was really great what the manager did to make me a happy customer, and they will likely get a lot more money from me in the future because of it.

Sometimes I just get luck. :D

I bought that 52" Samsung LED LCD and its the best display I've ever seen. Now if they made a 70" or bigger I'd buy that to replace my G90 front projector. Every time I turn the Samsung on (if you don't have a source turned on you don't know if the T.V.'s on or not because the black level is that good) I am amazed at its incredible black level and resulting image. A "free" Samsung BD player came with mine.

Cheers,

Grant

PFC5
04-03-2008, 05:47 PM
Get with the forum program here. We are sure the BDA paid millions per HD DVD to have them pulled from stores. I don't know where you could get the idea that a retailer would decide on its own to discontinue carrying a product that never sold well, is going to be discontinued completely soon, and is often returned as unplayable on the purchasers DVD player. I can't see that at all, they must be getting paid off to drop HD DVD, nothing else could make sense.;)

Chris

What I highlighted in red is ALSO an issue with BD players/movies also, so I suspect that you will be calling or understanding that the BD movies will soon be disappearing soon also. :lol:

bruceames
04-03-2008, 05:49 PM
Get with the forum program here. We are sure the BDA paid millions per HD DVD to have them pulled from stores. I don't know where you could get the idea that a retailer would decide on its own to discontinue carrying a product that never sold well, is going to be discontinued completely soon, and is often returned as unplayable on the purchasers DVD player. I can't see that at all, they must be getting paid off to drop HD DVD, nothing else could make sense.;)

Chris

Without the sarcasm, this post makes perfect sense. Well said, IMO. ;)

Chris Gerhard
04-03-2008, 05:53 PM
Exactly!

That is WHY I think there is more to this than meets the eye. I guess it really doesn't matter in the long run though. If i buy a HD movie now I buy it on BD if possible going forward now that I have a second BD player for my bedroom.

Retailers like to make money by carrying products and carrying both of these products doesn't accomplish that. Only the group of HD DVD supporters here believe it is HD DVD that should have stayed on store shelves. When DVD knocked VHS out, there were over 100 million VHS VCR's in the US alone so Best Buy carried VHS a little while longer than it would have otherwise, but prerecorded VHS is gone and there are still many more functional VHS VCRs in the US than HD DVD players. There has never been a format like HD DVD that did so little in the market and received so much press, it is strange and some people here have the impression that it was much more than it was. Yes, it is being abandoned by rental stores and retail stores, but I believe a majority of people don't even know anybody that owns a player, this isn't a big deal to anybody but a handful of HD DVD fans.

There is no conspiracy, there wasn't when Blockbuster chose to only add Blu-ray to 1,500 company owned stores and there wasn't one when Disney decided to support Blu-ray and there wasn't when Netflix decided to drop HD DVD from its online rental business. These and all of the other dominoes that fell and ended the HD DVD run are business decisions, not suspicious acts as a result of BDA strong arm tactics or covert operations.

Chris

Chris Gerhard
04-03-2008, 06:08 PM
What I highlighted in red is ALSO an issue with BD players/movies also, so I suspect that you will be calling or understanding that the BD movies will soon be disappearing soon also. :lol:

I won't say it never happened with Blu-ray, but for an idea of the frequency of the issue, read about Planet Earth at Amazon.com, both HD DVD and Blu-ray. Pay attention to the many complaints about the format that has DVD in its name, then look at the format that doesn't have DVD in its name and see how frequently people purchased that item from Amazon on HD DVD and tried to play it in their DVD player and then check for the same with Blu-ray.

I have personally purchased two HD DVD's opened and never played from confused owners of DVD players, "The Adventures of Robin Hood" and "The Phantom of the Opera". I suspect my "Planet Earth" HD DVD, purchased used was the same but I picked it up at MovieXChange used without direct knowledge and the sales clerk didn't know either way but laughed and said he wouldn't be surprised. For $30, I didn't care really, but suspected nobody that could play it would sell it so cheap. Mistaken gift, confusion, I don't know, but I do know what I read at Amazon.com and it wasn't only a couple of cases.

Until Toshiba announced the end was near, I never purchased a new HD DVD, I didn't want to add to the total for score keeping purposes. Since I bought quite a few used HD DVD's without knowing the reason they were for sale, I wouldn't be surprised if more of my ownership came from owners that goofed.

Blu-ray has a distinct name and nowhere on the box will you see DVD, therefore common sense tells me it didn't happen often and I don't know of even one case where someone bought a Blu-ray disc to play on a DVD player.

Chris

bruceames
04-03-2008, 06:11 PM
Retailers like to make money by carrying products and carrying both of these products doesn't accomplish that. Only the group of HD DVD supporters here believe it is HD DVD that should have stayed on store shelves. When DVD knocked VHS out, there were over 100 million VHS VCR's in the US alone so Best Buy carried VHS a little while longer than it would have otherwise, but prerecorded VHS is gone and there are still many more functional VHS VCRs in the US than HD DVD players. There has never been a format like HD DVD that did so little in the market and received so much press, it is strange and some people here have the impression that it was much more than it was. Yes, it is being abandoned by rental stores and retail stores, but I believe a majority of people don't even know anybody that owns a player, this isn't a big deal to anybody but a handful of HD DVD fans.

There is no conspiracy, there wasn't when Blockbuster chose to only add Blu-ray to 1,500 company owned stores and there wasn't one when Disney decided to support Blu-ray and there wasn't when Netflix decided to drop HD DVD from its online rental business. These and all of the other dominoes that fell and ended the HD DVD run are business decisions, not suspicious acts as a result of BDA strong arm tactics or covert operations.

Chris

I think close to one million owners is a lot more than a 'handful'. To assume that all the retailers did this on their own with no incentive from the BDA is assuming a lot. What's wrong with the BDA paying to sweep HD DVD under the rug and out of harm's way? Are you worried about the negative image it might project to those 'handful' of HD DVD owners? Because otherwise, it matters not how and why HD DVD was suddenly pulled. It seems all the BD fans are vigourously defending Blu-ray against anything that may project negative on the format, which I find hilarious.

ssjLancer
04-03-2008, 06:34 PM
I think close to one million owners is a lot more than a 'handful'. To assume that all the retailers did this on their own with no incentive from the BDA is assuming a lot. What's wrong with the BDA paying to sweep HD DVD under the rug and out of harm's way? Are you worried about the negative image it might project to those 'handful' of HD DVD owners? Because otherwise, it matters not how and why HD DVD was suddenly pulled. It seems all the BD fans are vigourously defending Blu-ray against anything that may project negative on the format, which I find hilarious.Before HDM as a whole was considered insignificant, some funny guys here even said studios were losing money. Now all of a sudden a few HDDVD fans is such a noticeable market and a few more HDDVDs sold is so important?

Soon amazon will be the only place stocking HDDVDs, why? cause they dont have to worry about shelf space.

bruceames
04-03-2008, 06:38 PM
Before HDM as a whole was considered insignificant, some funny guys here even said studios were losing money. Now all of a sudden a few HDDVD fans is such a noticeable market?

Soon amazon will be the only place stocking HDDVDs, why? cause they dont have to worry about shelf space.

Yeah, it's a given that HD DVDs will very soon only be available online.

PFC5
04-03-2008, 07:31 PM
I won't say it never happened with Blu-ray, but for an idea of the frequency of the issue, read about Planet Earth at Amazon.com, both HD DVD and Blu-ray. Pay attention to the many complaints about the format that has DVD in its name, then look at the format that doesn't have DVD in its name and see how frequently people purchased that item from Amazon on HD DVD and tried to play it in their DVD player and then check for the same with Blu-ray.

I have personally purchased two HD DVD's opened and never played from confused owners of DVD players, "The Adventures of Robin Hood" and "The Phantom of the Opera". I suspect my "Planet Earth" HD DVD, purchased used was the same but I picked it up at MovieXChange used without direct knowledge and the sales clerk didn't know either way but laughed and said he wouldn't be surprised. For $30, I didn't care really, but suspected nobody that could play it would sell it so cheap. Mistaken gift, confusion, I don't know, but I do know what I read at Amazon.com and it wasn't only a couple of cases.

Until Toshiba announced the end was near, I never purchased a new HD DVD, I didn't want to add to the total for score keeping purposes. Since I bought quite a few used HD DVD's without knowing the reason they were for sale, I wouldn't be surprised if more of my ownership came from owners that goofed.

Blu-ray has a distinct name and nowhere on the box will you see DVD, therefore common sense tells me it didn't happen often and I don't know of even one case where someone bought a Blu-ray disc to play on a DVD player.

Chris

I thought you were talking about problem discs or players that had problems with some discs. :lol:

I didn't realize you were talking about people who bought the wrong discs because they were ignorant. :D

Super XP
04-04-2008, 12:46 AM
Simply put, the BDA had their foot in every single spot to undercut HD DVD. Non-Factual & False Advertisements along with manipulative practises have played a role in HD DVDís death. But I also blame Toshiba & especially MS for not pushing the format harder.

You donít scrap HD DVD due to the fact it was a much cheaper costing format, phenomenal PQ & AQ (equal or better than BD), ONLY Hi Def Format w/ finished specifications, moderate studio support along with gaining momentum in the last few months of its demise etc.:2cents

anythingwt
04-04-2008, 12:59 AM
Well after the HD DVD died, my wife was convinced to keep the PS3 in the main viewing room, and I also was able to buy a brand new Sharp HP20u BD player for my bedroom for only $150.00, due to very lucky circumstances.

Long story short. I arranged to buy the store demo Samsung BD-P1200 BD player for $100.00 at a fairly local Sears store and it was tagged and held for me by a salesman. I told him I would be there within 2 hours and he was holding it.

When I got there he had already left for the night, and I asked for a manager when the idiot that I spoke to didn't even want to look for where it was being held. When the manager came and said he will try to find where he left it. I said I would be over looking at the new 52" Samsung LED display while he looked. ;)

After about 10 minutes, he came and told me that the salesman sold it to someone else just before he left for the night. He said he understood I made a special trip to the store to buy this so he offered me a brand new Sharp BD player for $150.00.

It was really great what the manager did to make me a happy customer, and they will likely get a lot more money from me in the future because of it.

Sometimes I just get luck. :D

Geeeze, talk about some serious luck! If that were to happen to me, more than likely the manager would just tell me sorry, no chance. I need to go scouting for a deal like that. I really am interested in a 2nd BD player myself, and a PS3 has been at the top of my list, but if I could find a SAL for $100-$200, i'd be all over that.

anythingwt
04-04-2008, 01:02 AM
Simply put, the BDA had their foot in every single spot to undercut HD DVD. Non-Factual & False Advertisements along with manipulative practises have played a role in HD DVDís death. But I also blame Toshiba & especially MS for not pushing the format harder.


The only thing the BDA didn't have on their side was cheap players. The DID have the PS3 though, which IMO is the sole reason for BDs success.

Maybe HD DVD should have had some manipulative practices themselves. It obviously worked out in BDs favor in the end. After all, it was a war. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do to win.

Chris Gerhard
04-04-2008, 04:30 AM
I thought you were talking about problem discs or players that had problems with some discs. :lol:

I didn't realize you were talking about people who bought the wrong discs because they were ignorant. :D

We understand this stuff because we read about it. Consumers that thought HD DVD would play in their upscaling DVD player are pretty common and it isn't based on ignorance, it was confusing to them and was a direct result of DVD being part of the product name.

As far as I know, my Samsung BD-P1200 plays all Blu-ray discs at firmware version 2.3 and it has been the most notorious offender of all Blu-ray players so maybe the issue of Blu-ray players not playing Blu-ray discs is behind us. That issue has been a bigger problem for Blu-ray then HD DVD. My HD-A1 choked on some combo discs prior to Toshiba providing firmware updates but Toshiba responded quicker than Samsung did but both have fixed those issues now.

Chris

Nikopol
04-04-2008, 04:39 AM
Jeez, the poll is 24 yes, 23 no atm! How embarrasing...... :lol:

Chris Gerhard
04-04-2008, 04:45 AM
I think close to one million owners is a lot more than a 'handful'. To assume that all the retailers did this on their own with no incentive from the BDA is assuming a lot. What's wrong with the BDA paying to sweep HD DVD under the rug and out of harm's way? Are you worried about the negative image it might project to those 'handful' of HD DVD owners? Because otherwise, it matters not how and why HD DVD was suddenly pulled. It seems all the BD fans are vigourously defending Blu-ray against anything that may project negative on the format, which I find hilarious.

What I believe is hilarious is that HD DVD launched, found no market of any significance anywhere in the world and the HD DVD fans here believe that was because of some sort of underhanded tactics by the evil Blu empire. Let's you and I try something today. I have an entire neighborhood around me of households without an HD DVD player. I am going to guess you live in a similar neighborhood. Neighborhoods consisting of households without an HD DVD player are very common in the US and even more common around the world. We should ask one question.

I have noticed you don't own an HD DVD player. Did you not buy an HD DVD player because you didn't want to or because of what the BDA has done?

I will come back and post my findings. I don't know if the BDA had a budget equal to the United States government and the soul purpose was to undermind HD DVD that it could have accomplished all that the HD DVD fans here believe has been accomplished.

Chris

Chris Gerhard
04-04-2008, 04:50 AM
Jeez, the poll is 24 yes, 23 no atm! How embarrasing...... :lol:

Oh my gosh. I thought the no votes were winning, how funny.

Chris

Nikopol
04-04-2008, 04:53 AM
Oh my gosh. I thought the no votes were winning, how funny.

Chris

Yeah, i was wondering why you would have voted Yes :lol: :lol: :lol: (read your comment before you've edited it ;) )

MikeRox
04-04-2008, 04:57 AM
For the record, I voted No. After paying Warner Bros $50,000,000,000,000,000 to drop HD DVD, they couldn't afford to :D

Nikopol
04-04-2008, 05:21 AM
For the record, I voted No. After paying Warner Bros $50,000,000,000,000,000 to drop HD DVD, they couldn't afford to :D

Oh no! Sounds like Dr. Evil has taken over WB and held the BDA hostage! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Lee Stewart
04-04-2008, 05:54 AM
For the record, I voted No. After paying Warner Bros $50,000,000,000,000,000 to drop HD DVD, they couldn't afford to :D

So that's what 50 Bazillion dollars looks like:lol:

Chris Gerhard
04-04-2008, 06:00 AM
Yeah, i was wondering why you would have voted Yes :lol: :lol: :lol: (read your comment before you've edited it ;) )

Ya, I misread your post thinking the no votes were winning. My post was gloating about having the right answer, but I am in the minority here once again. I am sorry, this is just funny. People here actually believe retailers are being paid to quit carrying a product that will be gone in a couple of months anyway? I Kobe Bryant decides to pay me not to try out for the LA Lakers shooting guard position.

Chris

pearl-drum-man
04-04-2008, 06:09 AM
I don't know about the BDA being behind it, but I think the studios may not really want to fire sale the remaining HD DVD stock when they know that a lot of those movies can eventually be sold at full price on Blu-ray to the same people.

Edit- vote "NO"

Lee Stewart
04-04-2008, 06:18 AM
Ya, I misread your post thinking the no votes were winning. My post was gloating about having the right answer, but I am in the minority here once again. I am sorry, this is just funny. People here actually believe retailers are being paid to quit carrying a product that will be gone in a couple of months anyway? I Kobe Bryant decides to pay me not to try out for the LA Lakers shooting guard position.

Chris

"My post was gloating about having the right answer":rolleyes:

Nikopol
04-04-2008, 06:36 AM
Chris' original post was actually quite funny. It was something about his vote being a swing vote, one man can make a difference and now the poll should be locked by the mods to keep it that way. Something like that. :thumbsup:

Lee Stewart
04-04-2008, 06:40 AM
Chris' original post was actually quite funny. It was something about his vote being a swing vote, one man can make a difference and now the poll should be locked by the mods to keep it that way. Something like that. :thumbsup:

Instant Replay!

We went through this on the poll to change the name of this forum:(

Chris Gerhard
04-04-2008, 06:45 AM
Chris' original post was actually quite funny. It was something about his vote being a swing vote, one man can make a difference and now the poll should be locked by the mods to keep it that way. Something like that. :thumbsup:

Exactly, the intent was humor. If somebody thinks I meant gloating about having a vote that was in line with the majority here, that is very funny. The vote is tied now, so I might still have casted the deciding vote when it is all over.:)

Chris

PFC5
04-04-2008, 02:43 PM
If we are counting CHAD votes mine should be counted. :p

Lee Stewart
04-04-2008, 02:46 PM
Hey . . I voted first!

25/26

Mine was the deciding vote!

:lol:

Damn it! That was fast . . . now 26/26

OK - when it goes to 26/27 . . .

See Above!

:D

ssjLancer
04-04-2008, 02:54 PM
I don't know about the BDA being behind it, but I think the studios may not really want to fire sale the remaining HD DVD stock when they know that a lot of those movies can eventually be sold at full price on Blu-ray to the same people.

Edit- vote "NO"Another reasonable post.

So far every post defending 'yes' is "because the bda is evil" or "cause WB promised us!!!" (you got fooled again)

MikeRox
04-04-2008, 02:58 PM
I don't know about the BDA being behind it, but I think the studios may not really want to fire sale the remaining HD DVD stock when they know that a lot of those movies can eventually be sold at full price on Blu-ray to the same people.

Edit- vote "NO"

Excellent post, and something I hadn't really thought of though ultimately a plan that I think would fail for many, as there are a lot of films I'm sure many people inc myself would only pick up because of the sale price (much like nikopols comment on piracy and how those people using piracy wudn't actually buy the product regardless) whereas they'll remain on Blu-ray shelves at full price just like the HD DVD editions did.

Lee Stewart
04-04-2008, 03:01 PM
Excellent post, and something I hadn't really thought of though ultimately a plan that I think would fail for many, as there are a lot of films I'm sure many people inc myself would only pick up because of the sale price (much like nikopols comment on piracy and how those people using piracy wudn't actually buy the product regardless) whereas they'll remain on Blu-ray shelves at full price just like the HD DVD editions did.

Bullet #3 in the OP.

MikeRox
04-04-2008, 04:40 PM
Bullet 3 refers to them being forced to buy a Blu-ray player, tis slightly different though I see what u mean.

PFC5
04-04-2008, 06:30 PM
Another reasonable post.

So far every post defending 'yes' is "because the bda is evil" or "cause WB promised us!!!" (you got fooled again)

That is BS. Are you saying MY reason for voting YES was for these reasons? :rolleyes:

Lee Stewart
04-04-2008, 07:15 PM
That is BS. Are you saying MY reason for voting YES was for these reasons? :rolleyes:

Sorry PFC5 . . . you are included:

So far every post defending 'yes'

ssjLancer
04-04-2008, 07:19 PM
That is BS. Are you saying MY reason for voting YES was for these reasons? :rolleyes:Well your reasons were just plain wrong.

Keeping the discs and selling them at a discount would not be better for retailers, and for studios even then its still iffy going back to pearls point.

PFC5
04-04-2008, 09:59 PM
Well your reasons were just plain wrong.

Keeping the discs and selling them at a discount would not be better for retailers, and for studios even then its still iffy going back to pearls point.

I cannot remember what thread I posted it in, but I answered a question, as a bean counter by trade, and if you look at the math I did there, you would see from a financial standpoint it makes sense to sell them at half price rather than trash them.

Retailers would STILL make out if the studios dropped the price in half to the retailers. ;)

It would have been win/win all around had this been done, so NO, you didn't show ANYTHING that would make this make sense without incentives.

pearl-drum-man
04-05-2008, 04:49 AM
I cannot remember what thread I posted it in, but I answered a question, as a bean counter by trade, and if you look at the math I did there, you would see from a financial standpoint it makes sense to sell them at half price rather than trash them.

Retailers would STILL make out if the studios dropped the price in half to the retailers. ;)

It would have been win/win all around had this been done, so NO, you didn't show ANYTHING that would make this make sense without incentives.

I think there are a couple things to consider. First, what are the potential write-off options for the studios if they scrap the HD DVDs instead of sell them? Does anybody even know? I would think if they scrap them they will have some financial justification to back it up, even if none of us know what it is.

Second, retailers didn't want both formats on the shelf when they were both viable, now that there is a clear winner, I suspect they want it gone asap, as long as HD DVD sits on the shelf next to Blu-ray it fosters confusion for the average person interested in adopting HDM.

MikeRox
04-05-2008, 08:50 AM
I would think if they scrap them they will have some financial justification to back it up, even if none of us know what it is.

I believe in the US they can claim back alot of if not most of their production costs in tax write offs can't they?

I remember hearing that was the reason for the 100% complete Dreamcast release of Half Life being cancelled, it was finished so late in the systems life that Sierra figured they'd make more from just claiming back all the man hours and costs etc in tax write offs, than they would from actually shipping and selling the product.

Chris Gerhard
04-05-2008, 09:09 AM
The BDA is behind the recent rash of retail pullbacks on HD DVD? Visitors to this forum have to think this forum attracts the biggest bunch of nuts. First of all, how could the BDA force any retailer to do anything especially quit carrying a product? Why doesn't the almighty BDA just force retailers to quit carrying DVD? This BDA is one powerful organization according to a group of members here. If I hadn't seen a couple years of the lunacy stated at this forum, this would be really funny.

Chris

Lee Stewart
04-05-2008, 09:16 AM
The BDA is behind the recent rash of retail pullbacks on HD DVD? Visitors to this forum have to think this forum attracts the biggest bunch of nuts. First of all, how could the BDA force any retailer to do anything especially quit carrying a product? Why doesn't the almighty BDA just force retailers to quit carrying DVD? This BDA is one powerful organization according to a group of members here. If I hadn't seen a couple years of the lunacy stated at this forum, this would be really funny.

Chris

Chris:

You are starting too low on the chain. Go up the chain to the distributors, wholesalers and then the studios (first/last) link in the chain.

It is called incentives . . . and we have seen PLENTY of those in the HDM arena.

kamspy
04-05-2008, 11:34 AM
I think there are a couple things to consider. First, what are the potential write-off options for the studios if they scrap the HD DVDs instead of sell them? Does anybody even know? I would think if they scrap them they will have some financial justification to back it up, even if none of us know what it is.

Second, retailers didn't want both formats on the shelf when they were both viable, now that there is a clear winner, I suspect they want it gone asap, as long as HD DVD sits on the shelf next to Blu-ray it fosters confusion for the average person interested in adopting HDM.

That type of common sense/simplicity has no place in this madhouse.:p

Good post.

Lee Stewart
04-05-2008, 11:55 AM
That type of common sense/simplicity has no place in this madhouse.:p

Good post.

He didn't see the post that PFC5 made concerning this issue. He is a CPA.

:confused:

kamspy
04-05-2008, 12:03 PM
He didn't see the post that PFC5 made concerning this issue. He is a CPA.

:confused:

Yes. That's why I commend pdrummer for his simplicity. Tax talk makes me all:eyecrazy

PFC5
04-05-2008, 01:17 PM
I think there are a couple things to consider. First, what are the potential write-off options for the studios if they scrap the HD DVDs instead of sell them? Does anybody even know? I would think if they scrap them they will have some financial justification to back it up, even if none of us know what it is.

Second, retailers didn't want both formats on the shelf when they were both viable, now that there is a clear winner, I suspect they want it gone asap, as long as HD DVD sits on the shelf next to Blu-ray it fosters confusion for the average person interested in adopting HDM.

I DO know what those costs/savings are in general from selling at half price vs. trashing the discs for the tax write-off. Here is the math as to WHY, as a bean counter by trade, it doesn't make ANY sense to just spend the cost of collecting these discs back and trashing them without some external "incentives":

http://www.highdefforum.com/showpost.php?p=575775&postcount=40

The only tax savings from a tax write-off is the costs written-off multiplied by the tax rate the company pays. If the rate is 36% then it still cost them a net cost of 64% they actually lost. Many people seem to believe if they lost $1 million dollars they save a million on their taxes. That is totally FALSE.

Retailers getting the discs from the studios for half price still gives them their profit margins too, and draws people into their stores while the disc inventory lasts. It is true the retailers never wanted to formats, but they made out well with all the added publicity the war caused. They also got a lot more in demo rental space from the CE companies also. Believe me, the retailers like BD/CC profited pretty good from the format war.

Also remember that BB stated previously that they would STILL be selling the discs as long as people wanted them and were buying them. Funny how less than a month later they changed their tune about that. :rolleyes:

PFC5
04-05-2008, 01:20 PM
I believe in the US they can claim back alot of if not most of their production costs in tax write offs can't they?

I remember hearing that was the reason for the 100% complete Dreamcast release of Half Life being cancelled, it was finished so late in the systems life that Sierra figured they'd make more from just claiming back all the man hours and costs etc in tax write offs, than they would from actually shipping and selling the product.

NO. They only get a percentage based on their tax rate. If they have a 36% percent tax rate they only recover 36% of the costs in tax savings by writing it off. That means they are still out 64% of those costs to be taken out of profits. Sure the net cost is lower than no write-off, but less than selling for half price and writing off the difference.

PFC5
04-05-2008, 01:22 PM
Yes. That's why I commend pdrummer for his simplicity. Tax talk makes me all:eyecrazy

I can understand this, but I tried to explain it in simple terms. It also is not a reason to except a false "simple" reason when the reality is something else. ;)

PrinceLH
04-05-2008, 01:35 PM
This is like doing a poll in a confederate advocate forum and asking if the north winning is the root of all the country's problems.One vote for the Confederacy here!

hatt
04-05-2008, 01:41 PM
I can understand this, but I tried to explain it in simple terms. It also is not a reason to except a false "simple" reason when the reality is something else. ;)

I vote fairtax and do away with all the crazyness.:cool:

ssjLancer
04-05-2008, 02:08 PM
I DO know what those costs/savings are in general from selling at half price vs. trashing the discs for the tax write-off. Here is the math as to WHY, as a bean counter by trade, it doesn't make ANY sense to just spend the cost of collecting these discs back and trashing them without some external "incentives":

http://www.highdefforum.com/showpost.php?p=575775&postcount=40

The only tax savings from a tax write-off is the costs written-off multiplied by the tax rate the company pays. If the rate is 36% then it still cost them a net cost of 64% they actually lost. Many people seem to believe if they lost $1 million dollars they save a million on their taxes. That is totally FALSE.

Retailers getting the discs from the studios for half price still gives them their profit margins too, and draws people into their stores while the disc inventory lasts. It is true the retailers never wanted to formats, but they made out well with all the added publicity the war caused. They also got a lot more in demo rental space from the CE companies also. Believe me, the retailers like BD/CC profited pretty good from the format war.

Also remember that BB stated previously that they would STILL be selling the discs as long as people wanted them and were buying them. Funny how less than a month later they changed their tune about that. :rolleyes:Yeah but youre assuming these retailers would make more money selling HDDVDs at 50-60% off rather than just expanding their blu ray shelf space and selling BDs at nearly full price. Thats where you dont have evidence of.
HDDVD sales peaked around March 9th(35% share) after that is about the time retailers decided to pack up HDDVDs when Blu ray started gaining back a 85%+ share. Not only that but Retailers would not want 2 HD formats period, and neither do studios. Who knows, the money lost from 1, 2, or 3 months of keeping the format war alive is probably much more than the money lost on a few thousand HDDVDs or is at least negligible(its the retailers choice anyways).

PFC5
04-05-2008, 02:27 PM
Yeah but youre assuming these retailers would make more money selling HDDVDs at 50-60% off rather than just expanding their blu ray shelf space and selling BDs at nearly full price. Thats where you dont have evidence of.
HDDVD sales peaked around March 9th(35% share) after that is about the time retailers decided to pack up HDDVDs when Blu ray started gaining back a 85%+ share. Not only that but Retailers would not want 2 HD formats period, and neither do studios. Who knows, the money lost from 1, 2, or 3 months of keeping the format war alive is probably much more than the money lost on a few thousand HDDVDs or is at least negligible(its the retailers choice anyways).

And do you have evidence they were losing money on HD DVD sales?

None of us have "the numbers" from these stores and never will. I am just disputing that studios are saving more money by trashing these discs instead of selling them for less money and writing off the difference. Selling them to retailers for half price saves the retailers money also.

As a bean counter myself I KNOW they are losing more money trashing the discs rather than selling them at half price. Tax savings are only going to be about 1/3 of what those discs cost to begin with. ;)

I doubt anyone can deny that a lot of back room deals have been going on throughout this format war and with semi-hard examples to go by, it seems clear that there is more to these discs getting trashed than what is on the surface.

Tel me. WHY did BB do a 180 on their month ago statement about selling the HD DVDs as long as people want/buy them?

hatt
04-05-2008, 02:32 PM
Tel me. WHY did BB do a 180 on their month ago statement about selling the HD DVDs as long as people want/buy them?

Maybe they discovered no one wanted to buy them. That would be consistant with their stance.

Lee Stewart
04-05-2008, 02:35 PM
Maybe they discovered no one wanted to buy them. That would be consistant with their stance.


Well that can't be right. Because BB is the largest seller of HDM ... numero uno.

And the Nielsen's said that HD DVD owners were buying them. We saw that . . . so did you.

ssjLancer
04-05-2008, 02:40 PM
As a bean counter myself I KNOW they are losing more money trashing the discs rather than selling them at half price. Tax savings are only going to be about 1/3 of what those discs cost to begin with. ;)Youre only seeing everything from the studios perspective, what about the retailers?

Ok, theres about what.. 450 titles on HDDVD? lets say theres 2000 copies of each title 'in the wild.' It costs about 1.10 to replicate each disc, thats about 1 million dollars. Tax savings put it above 650k, with shipping and all that lets put it back to 1 million.
Around 1 million is lost disposing HDDVDs for all studios combined.
Is that enough for studios to go to retailers and say 'holy crap we cant lose this much money, you guys better sell that remaining stock we cant take all these losses.'

Tel me. WHY did BB do a 180 on their month ago statement about selling the HD DVDs as long as people want/buy them?Well it depends on how they see demand. I dont think they see 85:15 as demand for HDDVDs.

hatt
04-05-2008, 02:44 PM
Well that can't be right. Because BB is the largest seller of HDM ... numero uno.

And the Nielsen's said that HD DVD owners were buying them. We saw that . . . so did you.
Yeah, it did show they peaked and then started the inexorable decline. I suppose BB could have just waited until the absolute very end to start to use the shelf space for other products.:rolleyes: Once BB concluded the discs were not going to sell except at clearance prices they were bye bye IMO. No other way to do business.

hatt
04-05-2008, 02:46 PM
Well it depends on how they see demand. I dont think they see 85:15 as demand for HDDVDs.

It was tolerated as long as the war had everything in limbo. No war = why are we carrying this again?

PFC5
04-05-2008, 03:07 PM
Youre only seeing everything from the studios perspective, what about the retailers?

Ok, theres about what.. 450 titles on HDDVD? lets say theres 2000 copies of each title 'in the wild.' It costs about 1.10 to replicate each disc, thats about 1 million dollars. Tax savings put it above 650k, with shipping and all that lets put it back to 1 million.
Around 1 million is lost disposing HDDVDs for all studios combined.
Is that enough for studios to go to retailers and say 'holy crap we cant lose this much money, you guys better sell that remaining stock we cant take all these losses.'

Well it depends on how they see demand. I dont think they see 85:15 as demand for HDDVDs.

I DID address the retailers. If the studios sell them at half price, then the retailers get them at half price so they still make their margins. ;)

Now you are speculating about how many discs are out there unsold and how much they cost? :banghead:

Look. I would bet there are a lot more than $1 million dollars worth of inventory at the studio cost out there. 2000 copies of each title is all you think there are out there? I bet BB alone has some multiple times more than that guess just in their stores alone.

I also bet that those discs cost a lot more than just $1.10 each especially when you include the remastering/encoding costs, the shipping costs originally to the stores/wholesalers, then you can add the advertising costs that also will not be recovered on those trashed discs, to the disc mfg costs.

Also. Are you trying to imply that HD DVD discs only cost about $1.10 per disc while BD discs cost around $4.00 per disc? Why were you NOT arguing this back when the war was on then? Why were you saying the BD disc mfg costs was almost the same as for HD DVD discs? I would say that 3-4 times the cost to mfg the discs is HUGE on a mass market product wouldn't you?

Now if you are NOT saying BD discs mfg cost is $3-4.00 more then it throws ALL your speculation number way off especially when you add the additional costs you apparently left out of the cost. I remember reading somewhere that the actual TOTAL cost to make a BD movie disc comes out to around $9.00 per disc when EVERYTHING is factored in. So lets say that it is only $7.00 for HD DVD, that would STILL be about 7 times higher costs than you speculated. Then when you figure there are probably a multiple (on average) of about 5 times the 2,000 copies of each title out there everywhere in the USA/Canada, but maybe much more.

You would still be looking at 35 times the number you speculated as the total COST of the inventory. That would put the cost at possibly $35 million, but possibly even more. We just do not know what those numbers are, so why bother with speculating about them?

Did you even read my post where I gave some figures to show that the studios would lose a lot more by trashing the discs compared to selling them at half price?

kamspy
04-05-2008, 03:08 PM
Why hasn't Wal-Mart pulled them from the shelves? Amazon? We know these two are making the least amount of profit from them (because of their low prices), so you would think if the BDA were going after the shelf space, they'd take down these two as well.

Especially Amazon. The BDA knows that Amazon ships HDM by the truckload, why haven't they "bought them out"?

Seeing as they make less than BB does per disc, you'd think it would be an easier 'pay-off'.

Lee Stewart
04-05-2008, 03:23 PM
Why hasn't Wal-Mart pulled them from the shelves? Amazon? We know these two are making the least amount of profit from them (because of their low prices), so you would think if the BDA were going after the shelf space, they'd take down these two as well.

Especially Amazon. The BDA knows that Amazon ships HDM by the truckload, why haven't they "bought them out"?

Seeing as they make less than BB does per disc, you'd think it would be an easier 'pay-off'.

You can't compare the cost of Retail shelf space to Etailer warehouse space. Not even remotely close.

PFC5
04-05-2008, 03:24 PM
Why hasn't Wal-Mart pulled them from the shelves? Amazon? We know these two are making the least amount of profit from them (because of their low prices), so you would think if the BDA were going after the shelf space, they'd take down these two as well.

Especially Amazon. The BDA knows that Amazon ships HDM by the truckload, why haven't they "bought them out"?

Seeing as they make less than BB does per disc, you'd think it would be an easier 'pay-off'.

Maybe because Walmart hardly carries any titles and BB is the largest seller of HDM. Maybe they DID go to Walmart & Amazon but was told to F-off. Who knows?

We all know that BB was the forefront of HDM for both formats being the largest seller of HD/BD players and movies thus far, and this is where the clear plurality of HDM sales took place. Hit the biggest first and the others just might follow suit without much/any "incentive".

There that was easy. :D

ssjLancer
04-05-2008, 03:48 PM
I DID address the retailers. If the studios sell them at half price, then the retailers get them at half price so they still make their margins. ;)And at half price they are losing money since they can just return the discs and give the shelf space to more blu ray inventory(which makes more money).

Now you are speculating about how many discs are out there unsold and how much they cost? :banghead:

Look. I would bet there are a lot more than $1 million dollars worth of inventory at the studio cost out there. 2000 copies of each title is all you think there are out there? I bet BB alone has some multiple times more than that guess just in their stores alone.

I also bet that those discs cost a lot more than just $1.10 each especially when you include the remastering/encoding costs, the shipping costs originally to the stores/wholesalers, then you can add the advertising costs that also will not be recovered on those trashed discs, to the disc mfg costs. The remastering/encoding work isnt lost though, they can use most of that work for future HD releases. Except player prices.

Also. Are you trying to imply that HD DVD discs only cost about $1.10 per disc while BD discs cost around $4.00 per disc? Why were you NOT arguing this back when the war was on then? Why were you saying the BD disc mfg costs was almost the same as for HD DVD discs? I would say that 3-4 times the cost to mfg the discs is HUGE on a mass market product wouldn't you?BD mfg costs are the same for studios, that 4 dollars includes the 3 dollars that the BDA subsidizes. Which I dont think affects anything at the retail level.

Now if you are NOT saying BD discs mfg cost is $3-4.00 more then it throws ALL your speculation number way off especially when you add the additional costs you apparently left out of the cost. I remember reading somewhere that the actual TOTAL cost to make a BD movie disc comes out to around $9.00 per disc when EVERYTHING is factored in. So lets say that it is only $7.00 for HD DVD, that would STILL be about 7 times higher costs than you speculated. Then when you figure there are probably a multiple (on average) of about 5 times the 2,000 copies of each title out there everywhere in the USA/Canada, but maybe much more.2000 copies is more than what most HDDVDs sell.

You would still be looking at 35 times the number you speculated as the total COST of the inventory. That would put the cost at possibly $35 million, but possibly even more. We just do not know what those numbers are, so why bother with speculating about them?

Did you even read my post where I gave some figures to show that the studios would lose a lot more by trashing the discs compared to selling them at half price?I already said that it would be cheaper for if they could sell all their inventory at a discount. But it may not be better in the long term, and it certainly isnt better for retailers.

ssjLancer
04-05-2008, 03:49 PM
I DID address the retailers. If the studios sell them at half price, then the retailers get them at half price so they still make their margins. ;)And at half price they are losing money since they can just return the discs and give the shelf space to more blu ray inventory(which makes more money).

Now you are speculating about how many discs are out there unsold and how much they cost? :banghead:

Look. I would bet there are a lot more than $1 million dollars worth of inventory at the studio cost out there. 2000 copies of each title is all you think there are out there? I bet BB alone has some multiple times more than that guess just in their stores alone.

I also bet that those discs cost a lot more than just $1.10 each especially when you include the remastering/encoding costs, the shipping costs originally to the stores/wholesalers, then you can add the advertising costs that also will not be recovered on those trashed discs, to the disc mfg costs. The remastering/encoding work isnt lost though, they can use most of that work for future HD releases.

Also. Are you trying to imply that HD DVD discs only cost about $1.10 per disc while BD discs cost around $4.00 per disc? Why were you NOT arguing this back when the war was on then? Why were you saying the BD disc mfg costs was almost the same as for HD DVD discs? I would say that 3-4 times the cost to mfg the discs is HUGE on a mass market product wouldn't you?BD mfg costs are the same for studios, that 4 dollars includes the 3 dollars that the BDA subsidizes. Which I dont think affects anything at the retail level. Except player prices.

Now if you are NOT saying BD discs mfg cost is $3-4.00 more then it throws ALL your speculation number way off especially when you add the additional costs you apparently left out of the cost. I remember reading somewhere that the actual TOTAL cost to make a BD movie disc comes out to around $9.00 per disc when EVERYTHING is factored in. So lets say that it is only $7.00 for HD DVD, that would STILL be about 7 times higher costs than you speculated. Then when you figure there are probably a multiple (on average) of about 5 times the 2,000 copies of each title out there everywhere in the USA/Canada, but maybe much more.2000 copies is more than what most HDDVDs sell.

You would still be looking at 35 times the number you speculated as the total COST of the inventory. That would put the cost at possibly $35 million, but possibly even more. We just do not know what those numbers are, so why bother with speculating about them?

Did you even read my post where I gave some figures to show that the studios would lose a lot more by trashing the discs compared to selling them at half price?I already said that it would be cheaper for studios if they could sell all their inventory at a discount. But it may not be better in the long term, and it certainly isnt better for retailers to give them that chance.

PFC5
04-05-2008, 03:52 PM
And at half price they are losing money since they can just return the discs and give the shelf space to more blu ray inventory(which makes more money).

The remastering/encoding work isnt lost though, they can use most of that work for future HD releases.

BD mfg costs are the same for studios, that 4 dollars includes the 3 dollars that the BDA subsidizes. Which I dont think affects anything at the retail level. Except player prices.

2000 copies is more than what most HDDVDs sell.

The titles would sell faster, AND be gone soon anyway. ;)


I already said that it would be cheaper for studios if they could sell all their inventory at a discount. But it may not be better in the long term, and it certainly isnt better for retailers.

So if the studios cut the price to retailers in half and the retailers cut the customer price in half from what they previously charged how do they lose more money? :banghead:

The margins would remain EXACTLY the same in this scenario. ;)

ssjLancer
04-05-2008, 03:54 PM
So if the studios cut the price to retailers in half and the retailers cut the customer price in half from what they previously charged how do they lose more money? :banghead:

The margins would remain EXACTLY the same in this scenario. ;)Having another scenario in which they can make more money = losing money.

BB can make more money by ending the confusion, and giving shelf space to better selling BD titles. So yes they are losing money carrying HDDVDs.

PFC5
04-05-2008, 04:00 PM
Having another scenario in which they can make more money = losing money.

BB can make more money by ending the confusion, and giving shelf space to better selling BD titles. So yes they are losing money carrying HDDVDs.

If they sell the HD DVD at half price they will sell quickly and be gone anyway with more money in everyone's pockets. So I guess you think that selling a HD DVD at half the regular price would not sell at least twice as many discs in a given time period? :lol:

Now the BDA might not like this because then people might associate BD movies with being twice the cost of HD DVD movies and consumers might be upset by WHY BD won. I could see this being a problem of perception for BD if the HD DVD sales happened. It could be part of the reason the BDA might offer incentives to retailers. :eek:

ssjLancer
04-05-2008, 04:03 PM
If they sell the HD DVD at half price they will sell quickly and be gone anyway with more money in everyone's pockets. So I guess you think that selling a HD DVD at half the regular price would not sell at least twice as many discs in a given time period? :lol:Did you see the Nielsen scans?

Now the BDA might not like this because then people might associate BD movies with being twice the cost of HD DVD movies and consumers might be upset by WHY BD won. I could see this being a problem of perception for BD if the HD DVD sales happened. It could be part of the reason the BDA might offer incentives to retailers. :eek:Yeah I guess some people might think that.. or they heard the news that HDDVD is dead and the cheap price is just the clearance sale.. maybe..

MikeRox
04-05-2008, 04:59 PM
Did you see the Nielsen scans?


You assume it's 50/50 shelf space etc everywhere. I'd assume HD DVDs are just in "bins" in most places now, which means they aren't being given as much space meaning they wouldn't need to sell on the same level to justify their space, I doubt they'd want to put BDs in said clearance bins.

Lee Stewart
04-05-2008, 05:05 PM
You assume it's 50/50 shelf space etc everywhere. I'd assume HD DVDs are just in "bins" in most places now, which means they aren't being given as much space meaning they wouldn't need to sell on the same level to justify their space, I doubt they'd want to put BDs in said clearance bins.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh . . . . . Dumpster Diving!:D

Which unfortunately Wal-Mart is putting a stop to. They are getting rid of the $5.50 DVD clearance "Dumpsters." Happening as we speak.:(

pearl-drum-man
04-05-2008, 07:24 PM
I DO know what those costs/savings are in general from selling at half price vs. trashing the discs for the tax write-off. Here is the math as to WHY, as a bean counter by trade, it doesn't make ANY sense to just spend the cost of collecting these discs back and trashing them without some external "incentives":

http://www.highdefforum.com/showpost.php?p=575775&postcount=40

The only tax savings from a tax write-off is the costs written-off multiplied by the tax rate the company pays. If the rate is 36% then it still cost them a net cost of 64% they actually lost. Many people seem to believe if they lost $1 million dollars they save a million on their taxes. That is totally FALSE.

Retailers getting the discs from the studios for half price still gives them their profit margins too, and draws people into their stores while the disc inventory lasts. It is true the retailers never wanted to formats, but they made out well with all the added publicity the war caused. They also got a lot more in demo rental space from the CE companies also. Believe me, the retailers like BD/CC profited pretty good from the format war.

Also remember that BB stated previously that they would STILL be selling the discs as long as people wanted them and were buying them. Funny how less than a month later they changed their tune about that. :rolleyes:

I'll take you for your word regarding the tax issue due to your expertise in the field. The point I still haven't seen any resolution on is this: from the perspective of the studio, how is it better to sell HD DVD Title A at slashed/clearance pricing, when they may be able to sell that same disc to the same person down the road at regular Blu-ray pricing. I get the concept that retailers may have the same profit margin in a clearance scenario as the studio would slash the cost to retailers.

Bottom line, I still think if they're pulling the discs it is based on something more concrete (whether it's purely financial or just wanting to have the remants of the "war" be gone from the mainstream consumer's field of view) than some conspiracy theory. (IMO):)

PFC5
04-05-2008, 07:54 PM
I'll take you for your word regarding the tax issue due to your expertise in the field. The point I still haven't seen any resolution on is this: from the perspective of the studio, how is it better to sell HD DVD Title A at slashed/clearance pricing, when they may be able to sell that same disc to the same person down the road at regular Blu-ray pricing. I get the concept that retailers may have the same profit margin in a clearance scenario as the studio would slash the cost to retailers.

Bottom line, I still think if they're pulling the discs it is based on something more concrete (whether it's purely financial or just wanting to have the remants of the "war" be gone from the mainstream consumer's field of view) than some conspiracy theory. (IMO):)

Fair enough. Your explanation could be correct also. We just do not know and likely will never find out if there were incentives offered.