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DVD Movie used for HDTV Plasma Calibration

plahen
01-11-2008, 02:34 PM
Hello All,

In your opinion what would be the best movie to look at to help calibrate your HDTV. I just bought a plasma tv, and am waiting for the calibration DVD to get here. but I wanted to do somehting while I wait. What movie do you htink you would use to get the best picture.

I was thinking Hero with Jet Li b/c of all the colors the vivid colors is used in the movie.
I was also thinking about Transformers, Gladiator, 300 (for the reds and darks) and the beach scenes of Saving Private Ryan for the sound.

What would you use, or what have you scene recently that has pretty good imagery and use of color in it.

By the way, I just have a regular DVD player, so blueray or HD DVD is out of the question.

macmarkus
01-11-2008, 02:40 PM
Hey plahen, welcome to HDF,:hithere:

Girls Next Store Season 3 is very "colourful".:p No I'm kidding of course, ha ha.:lol:

I'd try "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" - 2005 version, it has amazing colour, as does "What Dreams May Come", although I'm not a big fan of the later film.:bowdown: :what: :2cents

Good Luck:D

peace:thumbsup:

macmarkus :)

plahen
01-11-2008, 02:44 PM
I might check out Choc Factory. II am waiting for my DVE HD disc to come, but wont be here for another week. I would also like to watch the movie after its all said and done.

Naythign else enjoyable. Maybe some action flix???

macmarkus
01-11-2008, 02:59 PM
I like "The Bourne Ultimatum", or any from that series personally.

Also think the Lethal Weapon series is cool, Star Wars, (obviously) LoTR series, Harry Potter, Tomb Raider 1 or 2, Hellboy, Underworld 1 or 2...jeez there's so many.:eek: I don't know, it's pretty much an individual thing really.:)

Peace:thumbsup:

macmarkus :)

Lee Stewart
01-11-2008, 03:08 PM
Van Helsing . . .

The first act of the movie is in black and white. If your HDTV can't do B & W properly - it can't do color either.

macmarkus
01-11-2008, 03:20 PM
Good point. Then perhaps "Sin City" or "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow" would be good choice's as well.:what:

Another awesome title is the old Fritz Lang "Metropolis". It is a silent film in B&W, cause it's 1927 ! It is enjoyable to watch none the less, it's funny to see what they thought was possible "in the future" back then.:lol:

peace:thumbsup:

macmarkus :)

Chris Gerhard
01-12-2008, 07:45 AM
Hello All,

In your opinion what would be the best movie to look at to help calibrate your HDTV. I just bought a plasma tv, and am waiting for the calibration DVD to get here. but I wanted to do somehting while I wait. What movie do you htink you would use to get the best picture.

I was thinking Hero with Jet Li b/c of all the colors the vivid colors is used in the movie.
I was also thinking about Transformers, Gladiator, 300 (for the reds and darks) and the beach scenes of Saving Private Ryan for the sound.

What would you use, or what have you scene recently that has pretty good imagery and use of color in it.

By the way, I just have a regular DVD player, so blueray or HD DVD is out of the question.

Use a THX optimizer on some DVD's or the HDNet test pattern, either of which would be better than any DVD. If you must use a DVD, don't, just wait for the calibration disc to arrive.

chris

SportsHDnut
01-15-2008, 07:33 AM
I whole heartedly agree with Chris above. If you're looking for any type of calibration, wait till the disk arrives. If you're just looking for what look goods to you, return the disk and play with the settings. I did that originally, thought I had it looking great, bought the Avia II disk, and WOW.... the things I was missing. My screen looks amazing now.

Scottnot
01-15-2008, 08:16 AM
Ditto to the two previous posts!

Movies may be great to demo a set but are really quite useless for calibration.

Play with the settings if you like, but wait until the disc arrives to calibrate.

Chiz
01-18-2008, 11:57 AM
Just make sure that if/when you use the disc to calibrate that you give yourself a few days to adjust to the new settings. They might look a little dull or washed out compared to the previous settings. After a few days though you will notice that the colors and tones look much more lifelike (if you calibrated correctly).

At first I didn't like my new settings, then I got used to it. Now I will switch back to the settings closer to torch mode and it actually just hurts my eyes looking at it.

Either way, enjoy it when you get it where you want!

Lee Stewart
01-19-2008, 09:54 AM
PS:

You can't use a DVD to set the color values on an HDTV. You must use an HD source to do this because th color gamuts are not the same between NTSC and HDTV.

Scottnot
01-19-2008, 10:22 AM
PS:

You can't use a DVD to set the color values on an HDTV. You must use an HD source to do this because th color gamuts are not the same between NTSC and HDTV.
mmmm . . . gotta disagree . . . that's what decoders are for.

If it were true, then it would suggest that "you can't play standard DVDs on your new HDTV" for the same reason.
The basic test that this does not pass is the common sense test.

And: http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/campaign/dtvguide/module_3_4.jsp
And: http://www.plasmadisplaycoalition.org/results/color.php

rbinck
01-19-2008, 01:18 PM
mmmm . . . gotta disagree . . . that's what decoders are for.

If it were true, then it would suggest that "you can't play standard DVDs on your new HDTV" for the same reason.
The basic test that this does not pass is the common sense test.

And: http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/campaign/dtvguide/module_3_4.jsp
And: http://www.plasmadisplaycoalition.org/results/color.php
Not sure what you disagree about here. Your reference had to do with the gamut for display types as opposed to the delivery system of HDTV vs SDTV. It is generally held that the ATSC system has a wider gamut than the NTSC system in practice. If it is enough more to effect calibration could be argued.

More important than the gamut though is that many HDTVs these days have individual settings for each input, so using a DVD may not allow for all inputs to be calibrated. On thse HDTVs it would be required to move the DVD from input to input to calibrate each input individually. Then there is the matter of the internal ATSC tuner which requires a signal generator that will output a RF ATSC signal to calibrate that input, like the Sencore VP400 series.

Scottnot
01-19-2008, 02:26 PM
Not sure what you disagree about here.
With the statement that "You can't use a DVD to set the color values on an HDTV."
Obviously, the implications of that statement are that anyone and everyone who has ever purchase the DVE or Avia disc and used them to calibrate their sets have been doing something that can't be done . . . or they have been duped.
I disagree with the statement.

Your reference had to do with the gamut for display types as opposed to the delivery system of HDTV vs SDTV. It is generally held that the ATSC system has a wider gamut than the NTSC system in practice. If it is enough more to effect calibration could be argued.
Agreed.
If it is enough to effect calibration, then the folks at DVE and Avia have really been ripping the consumer and we ought to explore it more.

More important than the gamut though is that many HDTVs these days have individual settings for each input, so using a DVD may not allow for all inputs to be calibrated. On thse HDTVs it would be required to move the DVD from input to input to calibrate each input individually.
Yes, I agree completely, and have consistently advised and reminded others of this fact.
Indeed, I have always calibrated all ports that were to be used; in my personal case on one particular set; composite, S-video, Component-1, Component-2 and HDMI by, as you say, moving the DVD from input to input to calibrate each individually.

Then there is the matter of the internal ATSC tuner which requires a signal generator that will output a RF ATSC signal to calibrate that input, like the Sencore VP400 series.
Excellent point and I certainly agree.

It could also be pointed out that the same condition exists with respect to a STB, only worse, since it is generally not possible to feed a signal generator into a STB, but only to calibrate the TV port that will be used and hope that the STB is doing a decent job between the cable input and Component or HDMI output.

These factors along with variations in content itself do seem to take some of the "elegant precision" away from calibration that some would hope to achieve.

macmarkus
01-19-2008, 02:40 PM
With the statement that "You can't use a DVD to set the color values on an HDTV."
Obviously, the implications of that statement are that anyone and everyone who has ever purchase the DVE or Avia disc and used them to calibrate their sets have been doing something that can't be done . . . or they have been duped.
I disagree with the statement.


Agreed.
If it is enough to effect calibration, then the folks at DVE and Avia have really been ripping the consumer and we ought to explore it more.


Yes, I agree completely, and have consistently advised and reminded others of this fact.
Indeed, I have always calibrated all ports that were to be used; in my personal case on one particular set; composite, S-video, Component-1, Component-2 and HDMI by, as you say, moving the DVD from input to input to calibrate each individually.


Excellent point and I certainly agree.

It could also be pointed out that the same condition exists with respect to a STB, only worse, since it is generally not possible to feed a signal generator into a STB, but only to calibrate the TV port that will be used and hope that the STB is doing a decent job between the cable input and Component or HDMI output.

These factors along with variations in content itself do seem to take some of the "elegant precision" away from calibration that some would hope to achieve.


The DVE Disc I have for my HDTV IS a HD DVD. It is available for both SDTV (DVE 2003) and HDTV (DVE 2007) AFAIK.:what: Just different disc's is all.:D One has to be careful not to purchase the wrong one for their display.:banghead: :eek: :(

...of course the HD DVE won't do you any good if you don't have a HD DVD player to go with the HDTV, ha ha !:lol:


peace:thumbsup:

macmarkus :)

Scottnot
01-19-2008, 03:16 PM
The DVE Disc I have for my HDTV IS a HD DVD. It is available for both SDTV (DVE 2003) and HDTV (DVE 2007) AFAIK.:what: Just different disc's is all.:D One has to be careful not to purchase the wrong one for their display.:banghead: :eek: :(
Right; I think we are all in agreement that there are SD DVDs and HD DVDs which can be used for calibration.

I guess what we need now is for some highly industrious individual to calibrate the same port on the same TV using a SD DVD in a standard DVD player and with a SD DVD in an upscaling DVD player and finally with a HD DVD in a HD DVD player and report if there are any differences in the calibration results.

rbinck
01-19-2008, 06:34 PM
As has been discussed before, most people can not tell the difference, or have no particular preference, between a set whose white balance is 5500k up through about 7500k. Given that I would doubt that there would be any objectionable difference. There may be a physological difference with bias toward the high def DVD player. You would really need a colorimeter to really know. And I can tell you from experence DVD players vary greatly. They do have THX certified players that are pretty close to each other.

Lee Stewart
01-20-2008, 06:36 AM
DVD is based on NTSC standards.

HD DVD/BD are based on ATSC/HDTV standards.

The color standard for SD/DVD is Ref. 601. The color standard for HD is Ref 709.

To properly calibrate a display, you want to input the proper source to the display - SD to an NTSC TV and HD to an HDTV. That way when you are setting the color values for RGB - they will be accurate to the Ref. #.

Scottnot
01-20-2008, 02:26 PM
DVD is based on NTSC standards.

HD DVD/BD are based on ATSC/HDTV standards.

The color standard for SD/DVD is Ref. 601. The color standard for HD is Ref 709.

To properly calibrate a display, you want to input the proper source to the display - SD to an NTSC TV and HD to an HDTV. That way when you are setting the color values for RGB - they will be accurate to the Ref. #.
Correct, but it (as always) does get confusinger and confusinger.
(Note: I believe you meant to write "Rec. 601" and "Rec. 709" to denote "ITU-R Recommendation 601" and "ITU-R Recommendation 709".)

Most equipment "should" be aware of these differences and contain software to make the corrections.
Example #1: A SD upscaling DVD player "should" output using SD 601 when set to 480i/p; but at HD 709 when set to 720p/1080i.
Example #2: A HD TV "should" apply SD 601 when decoding an input signal of 480i/p, but apply SD 709 when decoding an input signal of 720p/1080i/p.

An excellent and thorough discussion of this can be found here:
"http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4969789#post4969789"
(note, copy the above link, then insert inbetween the original www. and the / to make the link work.)
in section 3 "Upconverting players and possible colorspace issues"

It should be noted that these differences are slight indeed, and more likely differences that actually show up in real life will be the result of improper implimentation of the Rec. 709 luma coefficients in the matrix equations necessary to make the required conversions.

An interesting representation of the actual differences when an image is encoded using one format and decoded using the other can be found here. (scroll to the bottom)
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Support/chromaticity.html

Anyway, it seems to me that where this leaves us is that "nothing is perfect", but the tools available do bring us close. Certainly most television consumers don't want to spend the next six months or six years studying color science or wringing out the last ounce of performance from their HDTVs when the content, equipment, software and hardware will prevent any possibility of perfection.
Progress, yes; perfection, not likely.

Scottnot
01-20-2008, 03:02 PM
If the above cited link cannot be found, here is another link to the same article.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/audio-video-sources/202183-advanced-guide-common-source-options.html

Allin4greeN
01-20-2008, 03:11 PM
This is a great discussion. I recently changed my set-up to include an HTPC for HD DVD and BD playback (over VGA). I was previously viewing HD DVD's through my 360 add-on over VGA, and had calibrated using the DVE HD DVD. Unfortunately, because of the player SW on my PC, I wasn't able to use the HD DVD side of my DVE disc in the new set-up. The SD side worked, however, so that's what I used.

I was disappointed by this outcome because I knew about the colorspace differences but, I also recalled having read several previous discussions that placed an emphasis on getting B/W levels dialed in accurately. And, to the best of my knowledge, there is even less or no difference between HD and SD in this regard?

I'm satisfied with the SD DVE results and would be lying if I reported that I notice a difference between my HD vs. SD calibration results. Then again, I didn't do any A/B comparisons. BTW, both set-ups use(d) [email protected] output to my HDTV.

I think that there are test patterns available somewhere in cyberspace that I could use for calibrating my PC to the 709 standard but, I haven't been that motivated to seek them out just yet.

Lee Stewart
01-20-2008, 07:11 PM
The differences, as I know them - between 601 and 709 has to do with the accuracy of the color as rendered by the display. This, as I understand it, is the benefit of 709 versus 601. Red's look red - the kind of red you see on film where with SD - red can look like red tinted with orange.

Scottnot
01-20-2008, 07:46 PM
The differences, as I know them - between 601 and 709 has to do with the accuracy of the color as rendered by the display. This, as I understand it, is the benefit of 709 versus 601. Red's look red - the kind of red you see on film where with SD - red can look like red tinted with orange.
That's pretty much correct except there is no reason why SD 601 reds should not look "red" other than poor implimentation and/or encoding.

The bigger issue, is that the translation from CEI color space is nonliear and how it is implimented can be quite messy at best.
While HD 709 uses coordinates that are theoretically "more accurate" than SD 601, the can of worms is still full of worms.

tipstir
01-20-2008, 09:17 PM
This is a great discussion. I recently changed my set-up to include an HTPC for HD DVD and BD playback (over VGA). I was previously viewing HD DVD's through my 360 add-on over VGA, and had calibrated using the DVE HD DVD. Unfortunately, because of the player SW on my PC, I wasn't able to use the HD DVD side of my DVE disc in the new set-up. The SD side worked, however, so that's what I used.

I was disappointed by this outcome because I knew about the colorspace differences but, I also recalled having read several previous discussions that placed an emphasis on getting B/W levels dialed in accurately. And, to the best of my knowledge, there is even less or no difference between HD and SD in this regard?

I'm satisfied with the SD DVE results and would be lying if I reported that I notice a difference between my HD vs. SD calibration results. Then again, I didn't do any A/B comparisons. BTW, both set-ups use(d) [email protected] output to my HDTV.

I think that there are test patterns available somewhere in cyberspace that I could use for calibrating my PC to the 709 standard but, I haven't been that motivated to seek them out just yet.

You can use AVIA DVD Calibration on your PC, but you really don't need too. To some most of what you get now out of the vendor factory default setting is just fine. I find myself to be more looking for color that doesn't bleed and brightness darker. Calibrations has help with a lot of my LCD HDTV some were really bad setting from the Factory like ALCO Electronics was the worst..

Calibration could be off if you have your DVD player default setting for brightness changed. Some DVD Players from China under the name plate Mintek gives you the option of changing the chroma.

On the PC LCD panel I just adjust the Grama to from range -55 to -75 from 0 default. With using the AVIA DVD.

Scottnot
01-21-2008, 06:27 AM
If he only had a brain . . . .

Allin4greeN
01-21-2008, 10:56 AM
If the above cited link cannot be found, here is another link to the same article.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/audio-video-sources/202183-advanced-guide-common-source-options.htmlThat was a great read, wish I had looked at it before posting. I think I'll be doing some experimentation this week...If he only had a brain . . . . I'm guessing that one wasn't directed at me.

Scottnot
01-21-2008, 11:18 AM
That was a great read, wish I had looked at it before posting. I think I'll be doing some experimentation this week...
If you want to have some real fun, go to this site http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Support/chromaticity.html and open it in two separate explorer windows. Resize the windows side-by-side so you can A/B the various pictures. It's funny, I can slightly perceive a change at the instant the pictures are switched, but in side-by-side viewing, I have a very difficult time seeing the differences.
Seems like "pretty close" is "good enough" for most of us mortals.

I'm guessing that one wasn't directed at me. (If he only had a brain . . . . )
Ha, ha, certainly not - it was for our resident "Audio/Video Network Guru".

Allin4greeN
01-21-2008, 03:05 PM
Irony and the A/V stars appear to have aligned for me today... I thought I might try out the HD DVD side of DVE again, and low and behold, I got it working. This seems pretty typical of PowerDVD (SW player I'm using). I've had similar experiences with this player on other BD's and HD DVD's. It's almost like the player needs to get to know the HDM better, shake hands, exchange pleasantries, before it will play through the menus on some titles... strange, I know. But I digress.

I'm not using video card settings for making any calibration adjustments so, after a factory reset of my HDTV (I like to start with a clean palette) I delved into the calibration test patterns. I did the usual dialing-in on Brightness and Contrast and selected User Color Temp for individual RGB adjustments. I have a 6500k option but, my set pushes green a bit, and I like to tinker anyway. BTW, I'm guessing my PC must be outputting Studio levels (0-255), because there's no clipping on BTB signals.

I then used The Bourne Supremacy HD DVD as a reference because I like the opening flashback sequence and scene for checking my B/W settings. I always seem to end up bumping Contrast a couple of notches too eek out the most from shadow details. Anyway, I made my final adjustments using the reference and then went back to DVE and started browsing through the "System Evaluation" patterns. That's when I came across this one...

http://www.highdefforum.com/gallery/data/511/image_mini.jpg

...It's just like the pattern I use with filters for adjusting Tint/Hue, or RGB values, but this one indicated that the top row color bar is 601 and the bottom row is 709. After displaying this pattern for about a minute, it then cycled through a split screen comparison of the restaurant scene (for those familiar with DVE), 601 on the left and 709 on the right of the split screen. Finally, it cycled to SMPTE color bars, with a 601 version alligned directly on top of a 709 version. A great A/B test!

From viewing the patterns and split screen scene, I noticed a very subtle difference that was most pronounced on the SMPTE bars. I can now understand what Lee was saying when he commented on the difference in red between 601 and 709. To my eye, the 601 appeared to have a slightly "lighter" appearance. Definitely very subtle, however, and probably not something that I would notice if I were switching back and forth between two different preset calibration profiles on the same source/same viewing material.

Just thought I'd share my experience. I always enjoy playing, and this one was fun!

Chiz
01-24-2008, 06:30 PM
Yes, I agree completely, and have consistently advised and reminded others of this fact.
Indeed, I have always calibrated all ports that were to be used; in my personal case on one particular set; composite, S-video, Component-1, Component-2 and HDMI by, as you say, moving the DVD from input to input to calibrate each individually.


Is this the correct way to calibrate your inputs? I only use my HDMI inputs at the moment (A3, hd cable box, xbox 360) and have calibrated the input my A3 is going to using the DVE-HD. But if I want to calibrate the other two inputs, should I plug my A3 into each of these inputs? Should I run the SD side of the DVE disc through my xbox? I've been told that the best way to calibrate my cable tv is through test patterns the cable company will have broadcasting on a certain channel but Cox Cable doesn't offer that. Should I just plug the A3 into the HDMI input I use for cable tv and calibrate that way?

Scottnot
01-24-2008, 07:20 PM
Is this the correct way to calibrate your inputs? I only use my HDMI inputs at the moment (A3, hd cable box, xbox 360) and have calibrated the input my A3 is going to using the DVE-HD. But if I want to calibrate the other two inputs, should I plug my A3 into each of these inputs? Should I run the SD side of the DVE disc through my xbox? I've been told that the best way to calibrate my cable tv is through test patterns the cable company will have broadcasting on a certain channel but Cox Cable doesn't offer that. Should I just plug the A3 into the HDMI input I use for cable tv and calibrate that way?
Theoretically, the best way to do it is the way (I think) you are saying. Calibrate as close to the final system as possible, so . . . .

If you're going to use the A3 on HDMI-1, then calibrate HDMI-1 using the A3 and HD side of DVE.

If you're going to use the xbox on HDMI-2, then calibrate HDMI-2 using the xbox and the SD side of DVE.

For the STB (cable box), probably the best option is to use the A3 with the HD side of DVE to calibrate the HDMI port that the STB will be connected to.

Chiz
01-24-2008, 09:13 PM
Theoretically, the best way to do it is the way (I think) you are saying. Calibrate as close to the final system as possible, so . . . .

Many thanks, good sir.

Scottnot
01-25-2008, 08:39 AM
de nada . . .