High Def Forum
Thank you for visiting. This is our website archive. Please visit our main website by clicking the logo above.

One more thing - question about 720p

hagmann
11-26-2007, 12:36 PM
My brother in law states that he "read" that no one is buying 720p anymore or won't in the near future since they won't get a picture in the future if broadcasts are in 1080i or p. I told him to look at what each tv supports and some may have to upconvert the signal - now mind you I bought two 720p sets the other day so hope he is wrong...any opinions?:eyecrazy

clearday
11-26-2007, 12:47 PM
They may stop making 720p tvs in the future but that will have no effect on the ones we already have. All these fixed pixel tvs upconvert or downconvert a 720p signal or a 1080i signal to their own native resolution. Many shows are now broadcast in 1080i and we get them fine.

Not a problem and don't worry about it. PS: Don't take too much advice from the brother-in-law in relation to HDTV. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing....and none is even worse.

Rick-F
11-26-2007, 12:48 PM
He is. (Wrong)

BamaPanda
11-26-2007, 01:46 PM
I think it could happen in name brand LCDs one day that 720P will all but disappear, as it is a lot easier to make 1080P LCD than 1080P PDP.
That said, it will be a LONG LONG time - IF EVER - before any broadcast (OTA, cable, sat) is done in 1080P - mainly because of bandwidth issues.
Even now there is compression problems from time to time getting HD through Direct. I shudder to think if they tried 1080P.
OTA is fine for 720P/1080i - but it will be a cold day in hell before we will see 1080P coming over the airways. There is only so much bandwidth, and much of what will be freed up in Feb. 09 is already spoken for in one way or another.

hagmann
11-26-2007, 02:12 PM
thanks for the info - very informative and entertaining.:yippee:

BobY
11-26-2007, 09:55 PM
AFAIK, there are already no 720p displays currently in active production.

720p is defined by the ATSC (and is broadcast at) 1280 x 720 pixels.

Tell me what displays currently being produced are 1280 x 720 pixels?

Not 1024 x 768, or 1024 x 1080 or 1280 x 1080--these are not 720p displays.

Not 1366 x 768--these are significantly higher resolution than a 720p display, although it's better to think of them as 1080p displays that have been "down-rezzed" to reduce cost.

As far as content--yes, 720p is losing market share. There are only a few 720p networks now (FOX, ABC, ESPN l/ll, National Geographic) and no new ones coming on line--virtually all announced new HD programming is 1080i and, Hi-Def discs are 1080p.

Through the use of digital scaling, a display of any resolution will always be able to display a 720p or 1080i/p signal, but scaling often softens the picture and adds digital artifacts.

The bottom line is, it won't be too long before all HD displays are 1080p and the overwhelming majority of HD content is encoded at 1920 x 1080.

Scottnot
11-26-2007, 10:33 PM
Hey BobY, all your points are very fine, even great . . . except.

AFAIK, 720p is defined by the ATSC (and is broadcast at) 1280 x 720 pixels.
Why drag ATSC into it, as the only criteria they place on the display is that it:
. . . has a resolution of approximately twice that of conventional television in both the horizontal (H) and vertical
(V) dimensions and a picture aspect ratio (H × V) of 16:9. ITU-R Recommendation 1125 further defines “HDTV quality” as the delivery of a television picture which is subjectively identical with the interlaced HDTV studio standard.
Hasn't that always been your position anyway regarding discussions about "true HD", "full HD", and the like; doesn't it apply here as well?
Wouldn't it have been easier to simply point out that they all display at 768p anyway? At least that would have kept the burr out of my saddle.

The bottom line is, it won't be too long before all HD displays are 1080p . . .
mmmm, eventually, yes, but "it won't be long" . . . . I don't know.
My guess; <32", 32", even 37"; perhaps 10 years; perhaps longer.

BamaPanda
11-27-2007, 08:00 AM
AFAIK, there are already no 720p displays currently in active production.

720p is defined by the ATSC (and is broadcast at) 1280 x 720 pixels.

Tell me what displays currently being produced are 1280 x 720 pixels?

Not 1024 x 768, or 1024 x 1080 or 1280 x 1080--these are not 720p displays.

Not 1366 x 768--these are significantly higher resolution than a 720p display, although it's better to think of them as 1080p displays that have been "down-rezzed" to reduce cost.

As far as content--yes, 720p is losing market share. There are only a few 720p networks now (FOX, ABC, ESPN l/ll, National Geographic) and no new ones coming on line--virtually all announced new HD programming is 1080i and, Hi-Def discs are 1080p.

Through the use of digital scaling, a display of any resolution will always be able to display a 720p or 1080i/p signal, but scaling often softens the picture and adds digital artifacts.

The bottom line is, it won't be too long before all HD displays are 1080p and the overwhelming majority of HD content is encoded at 1920 x 1080.

Had a response to all this, but in the end it made little sense. Will think it out better, and repost.

z28rod
11-27-2007, 08:13 AM
My brother in law states that he "read" that no one is buying 720p anymore or won't in the near future since they won't get a picture in the future if broadcasts are in 1080i or p.Another hdtv guru ..........

BobY
11-27-2007, 11:20 AM
Hey BobY, all your points are very fine, even great . . . except.


Why drag ATSC into it, as the only criteria they place on the display is that it:

Hasn't that always been your position anyway regarding discussions about "true HD", "full HD", and the like; doesn't it apply here as well?
Wouldn't it have been easier to simply point out that they all display at 768p anyway? At least that would have kept the burr out of my saddle.


mmmm, eventually, yes, but "it won't be long" . . . . I don't know.
My guess; <32", 32", even 37"; perhaps 10 years; perhaps longer.

The reason I brought the ATSC in, is they are the only organization who has the authority to define what HD means by virtue of the recognition of their authority by the government (via the FCC).

They have defined two resolutions they consider HD: 1280 x 720 and 1920 x 1080. That doesn't preclude them from defining other formats in the future, but officially HD is 1280 x 720 or above, regardless of what the CEA or individual manufacturers have to say about that, as the government does not recognize their authority to define what HD means.

720p is an encoding format--1280 x 720 pixels transmitted progessively--not a display resolution, so it really doesn't make sense to call a display a "720p" display (particularly a display that does not have 1280 x 720 pixels), unfortunately that is the current industry convention, much to the confusion of consumers.

Displays should be described by their native resolution, not by what input formats they accept--this has led to all sorts of consumer confusion and even lawsuits.

There is no officially accepted definition of a "768p" display (just as there is no officially accepted definition of "Full HD"). There is no encoding format with 768 lines and there are displays with 1024 x 768, 1280 x 768 and 1366 x 768 native resolution--which one of those is a "768p" display? All of them? I suspect many consumers would be very upset to learn the "768p" display they bought is only 1024 x 768 when their neighbor's "768p" display looks so much sharper because it is 1366 x 768.

LCD display manufacturing is like semiconductor manufacturing. Once the yields are good enough, they will stop producing anything less than 1080p displays, except at the very low end with small screens. It really won't cost them any more to produce a 1920 x 1080 LCD than it does to produce a 1024 x 768 LCD. Given good yields, the largest cost component of an LCD by far is the raw panel itself and that cost is related to size, not resolution.

I think by next year, but certainly not later than 2009, you will only see 1080p LCD's. All you have to do is compare the price/density curves of LCD's with the price/density curves of semiconductor DRAM to see where things are heading. Plasma is a bit different as it will always be cheaper to produce lower resolution Plasma displays due to the more complicated manufacturing process (LCD is a far simpler photolithography process, essentially the same as semiconductors).

Scottnot
11-27-2007, 01:58 PM
Well, I certainly can't agree with you 100%, but 99% ain't worth nit picking over.

I think by next year, but certainly not later than 2009, you will only see 1080p LCD's.
Let's see, my guess was 10 years; yours is 2 years.
Most likely we'll both be wrong - 4-6yrs?

paranormal5150
12-01-2007, 08:43 AM
1080i programming and bluray 1080i and video games that are 1080 still look damn good on my 720p tv. So I wouldn't worry about it. I mean yeah a 1080i tv is going to be clearer but for me I couldn't need it any more clear. I watch 1080i signal on my 720p tv everyday and its really clear and im more than satisfied. So, don't worry. And even if every program or dvd is in 1080i your 720p tv will still pick them up and it will still look great. So, your brother is wrong.