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Sde

Steve A
02-25-2005, 08:43 PM
I finally saw the Screen Door Effect on every SONY LCD RP! I noticed it first watching a SD broadcast at Tweeters but then even during HD Broadcasts, when the camera moved, I saw the SDE and it was exactly as if a window screen was between my eyes and the image. Yuck!

Too bad, because the Sony Grand Wega LCD RPs are much brighter than the DLP RPs but I am now more inclined to go with a DLP RP.

crazyal
02-26-2005, 09:58 AM
I've noticed that if the Sonys (maybe other brands too) are not adjusted right they get sde. I have a friend who has the same set as mine (55xs955) and his set was real bad where as mine was fine. We adjusted his to match my settings and what a change. Like you he was not happy, now he would not give his set up to save his life.

Steve A
02-26-2005, 12:32 PM
Question: Why did the Best Buy GRAND WEGAs not show SDE while playing their HD channel. Yet, the other store (TWEETERS), watching live HD broadcasts absolutely did show SDE??

Also, SDE is not apparent during DVD playback. Is this correct?

amf1932
02-26-2005, 12:38 PM
I have NEVER seen the SDE on my Sony KDF-42WE655 or any artifacts that some people complain about. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place?? :confused:

Alan

Pakbackr
02-26-2005, 12:57 PM
It doesn't matter if it is HD or DVD, the SDE is always there on an LCD. It is a matter of how the technology defines that small space where color is projected. It has that very fine and faint set of lines around it, which are more visible the closer you are to the screen, the larger the screen size, and under certain light conditions. As someone said earlier, once you see it, you will always notice it.

Beastslayer1
02-26-2005, 01:20 PM
So what Pakbackr is saying...Once you notice the "screen door effect" you should bash your head into a wall until you cause enough amnesia to forget about what "screen door effect" looks like. That way you'll not notice it, untill you do notice again...then repeat with the head bashing. And so on, and so on, and so on... :)

*This website, it's guests, it's moderators, and anyone else who are or are not affiliated with this website are not responsible for any adverse effects that head bashing may occur. :)

amf1932
02-26-2005, 02:02 PM
which are more visible the closer you are to the screen
So, the reason I don't notice the SDE is because I view the programs at the proper distance from the screen. :rolleyes:

Alan

jojojojo57
02-26-2005, 04:55 PM
So what Pakbackr is saying...Once you notice the "screen door effect" you should bash your head into a wall until you cause enough amnesia to forget about what "screen door effect" looks like. That way you'll not notice it, untill you do notice again...then repeat with the head bashing. And so on, and so on, and so on... :)

*This website, it's guests, it's moderators, and anyone else who are or are not affiliated with this website are not responsible for any adverse effects that head bashing may occur. :)


WOW it really works !!! :D :D :D

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question672.htm

StevePLittle
05-05-2005, 03:45 PM
crazyal,

Have you considered publishing your settings here? I have the KDF-55xs955 and the sde does bother me. I've been trying to play with the settings but can't seem to get it to help.

HughScot
05-05-2005, 04:00 PM
---------------
Also, SDE is not apparent during DVD playback. Is this correct?


Actually, it is visible regardless of the source including DVD's. It really depends on the colors being shown as to the degree it will be a problem. Obviously a dark shot will not show the SDE like one in the daytime with bright colors which is where I see it the most. If you check out the causes of this problem it will help you understand why it is visible. For some reason I notice it more on Sony's more so than any other mfg. And I really like Sony products.

petej
05-05-2005, 04:36 PM
I prefer the screen door affect to the rainbow affect. I had to change from a DLP Toshiba to a Sony LCD. Wouldn't even think about looking back. But I might get talked into looking forward at lcos/dila JVC 2nd gen systems coming out now. The 70" version looks awesome.

dontknowjack
05-06-2005, 03:00 AM
Question. What is a screen door effect?

daleb
05-06-2005, 11:16 AM
If you get close to an LCD projection screen you can see the pattern of the lcd matrix. It looks like a screen door. You do have to focus on it to see it. At further distances it becomes all but invisible.
This is not to be confused with some screen texture on the surface which is there to reduce reflections from the outside.
Some claim the SDE to be bothersome, but typically not as often or as bothersome as those sensitive to DLP rainbows.
Many others, like myself, can enjoy either technology. Having a Sony is strictly a personal preference. The choice was not easy.

HughScot
05-06-2005, 11:24 AM
Question. What is a screen door effect?

It's actually the space between the pixels. It's like viewing the tv with a screen door between the viewer and the television. To me it has always been viewable back to 15 feet. Natually if you move back far enough you will not see it. It depends on the set and the person viewing it. Affects some people more than others. Almost everyone can see it while the rainbow effect can only be seen by relatively few.

daleb
05-06-2005, 11:28 AM
It's actually the space between the pixels. It's like viewing the tv with a screen door between the viewer and the television. To me it has always been viewable back to 15 feet. Natually if you move back far enough you will not see it. It depends on the set and the person viewing it. Affects some people more than others. Almost everyone can see it while the rainbow effect can only be seen by relatively few.

Thanks for the hair-splitting. Yes, you are seeing where there are no pixels. :o

azsol
05-06-2005, 06:36 PM
Thanks for the hair-splitting. Yes, you are seeing where there are no pixels. :o

Me to I`ll take the SDE than the rainbow any day :o

iserum
05-06-2005, 06:56 PM
SDE is more prominent if you are less than 10 feet from TV, SONY 42 and 50 inch has less SDE at 10 feet as compared to 55 inch, you can minimize SDE by properly calibrating the TV i have set my tv to standard mode with sharpness very low, for good black levels use power reduce mode, this gives me very good quality picture, I have video calibration program built in my Harman Kardon DVD player i used it to calibrate the video setting.

my friend has the same tv as (55 grand wega ) i have but his seating position is around 15 feet away from tv and believe me SDE is not a factor at all.
like in CRT projceton tv or 32 inch tvs with out line doublers if you sit close to tv you can see the dark scan lines (watching distance to tv is key here)


if someone has less space i would recommend to go for 42 inch max. SONY black levels are very good in the WF series TV.

for folks who can't see SDE u are blessed enjoy your LCD proction TV.

petej
05-06-2005, 06:56 PM
To me it has always been viewable back to 15 feet. Natually if you move back far enough you will not see it. It depends on the set and the person viewing it. Affects some people more than others.

I guess I'm fortunate in that I don't notice the SDE or dead pixels beyond 8 feet and typical viewing in my home is between 10 to 12 feet. The rainbow affect on the other hand can bring tears to my eyes.

HughScot
05-06-2005, 07:31 PM
SDE is more prominent if you are less than 10 feet from TV, SONY 42 and 50 inch has less SDE at 10 feet as compared to 55 inch,--------------------------

Let's don't forget that viewing distance is critical for viewing HDTV. At 50" the maximum recommended THX viewing distance is 7.9 feet. When you start moving back 12 to 15 feet you defeat the purpose of HDTV. So when buying a particular format viewing distance is very important. If your viewing distance is (X) feet than you buy a size that will fit that distance. Or you more your viewing furniture.

Many people will say they have to be 15 feet back but only have room for a 42" set and to those people I say you will not be able to see the visual improvement of HD so wait until something changes.

daleb
05-06-2005, 11:18 PM
No one should be watching a display that bothers them at 'normal' viewing distances. It is just as foolish to even consider moving back further and losing the advantage you are gaining with a HD display if it bothers you.
Just another factor to consider when shopping for HDTV, use your eyes in the truest sense.
I know when we shopped for ours, we measured the distance where we felt most comfortably watching from. Something I would highly recommend as a good thing to do. The measurement will also tell you how well the display will fit in your own home environment.
And when you get it home, don't forgot tuning out the poor out of box adjustments most sets have, as well as controlling your ambient lighting based on the tolerance of your particular display.

petej
05-07-2005, 12:36 AM
At 50" the maximum recommended THX viewing distance is 7.9 feet. When you start moving back 12 to 15 feet you defeat the purpose of HDTV.


The formulas I've read state that the MINIMUM (not maximum) ideal viewing distance is roughly twice the diagonal width or 3 times the height. Therefore, 10 feet is just fine according to the formula and especially to my eyes, making the HD experience very enjoyable. At 10 feet I feel like I'm almost sitting right on top of the tv and the detail is stunning. Regardless of the type of tv, I woud not want to sit any closer.

In fact, the Toshiba DLP User Manual for the 44NHM84 states, and I quote, "Always sit approximately 10 - 25 feet away from the TV.... If you sit too closely to the TV for too long, you may suffer from eye fatigue."

daleb
05-07-2005, 09:21 AM
Manufacturers generally only state minimums. You select maximums based on your own comfort and room dimensions.
Sony recommends 6.6 feet minimum for a 50" display (LCD RP). On my particular set, I would have to really concentrate to see SDE at that distance. So maybe they know what works for most people.
But that's not a comfortable distance for me in all other aspects of TV viewing.
I know there are tables around recommending maximum distances for screen sizes based on the eye's ability to resolve a high definition image. They are 'interesting' and something to compare with your own comfort level based on all the conditions that exist in your viewing area, along with your display choice. Again, regardless of what tables or mfr.s recommend, folks will sit where they are most comfortable. You can make recommendations until you are blue in the face, nothing will change that.

petej
05-07-2005, 06:14 PM
OK. I did a test and moved my couch from 10 to 8 ft to view the Sony LCD. Stills looks awesome.

daleb
05-07-2005, 06:27 PM
OK. I did a test and moved my couch from 10 to 8 ft to view the Sony LCD. Stills looks awesome.

I would not have a problem with 8 or 9 ft. My wife has a tendency to move her head when there is action on the screen, rather than just move her eyes side to side. Not sure why that is, but at 10 feet she has no problem. And 10 feet is just fine all around. Again, it only emphasizes individual preferences, and sometimes compromises have to be made. Formulae are great as guidelines. But there is more than one theory on the optimal distance.

HughScot
05-07-2005, 06:54 PM
--------------------But there is more than one theory on the optimal distance.

The optimal distance is based on where a person should sit based on the angle between the sides of the screen and one's eyeballs. In a movie theater, with a huge screen, you have a large area in terms of rows as to the best place to sit. In your home theater with the relatively small screen that distance is quite small. Those of us who must compromise due to furniture placement don't get to sit in the best seat in the house. This only applies to HD.

RSawdey
05-08-2005, 12:25 AM
If you must sit farther back, it just means you need a larger screen...

daleb
05-08-2005, 10:04 AM
The optimal distance is based on where a person should sit based on the angle between the sides of the screen and one's eyeballs. In a movie theater, with a huge screen, you have a large area in terms of rows as to the best place to sit. In your home theater with the relatively small screen that distance is quite small. Those of us who must compromise due to furniture placement don't get to sit in the best seat in the house. This only applies to HD.

Basically, that's true, but what is the best seat in the house (other than center)?
The recommendations for viewing distance have more than one basis. Some are based on screen height, some based on the diagonal screen measurement.
But you can throw all that out the window, because given a large enough viewing room, people will sit closer or further from the screen based on personal comfort level, as they do in a movie theater, and not based on what a recommendation tells them. Of course that does not invalidate the value of calculated recommendations, only their usefulness for most folks. And of course, without constant HD material most of us will compromise, rather than constantly change our viewing distance based on the resolution of the image.
As HD becomes the norm, it is likely we will be creeping closer on average.

RSawdey
05-08-2005, 12:58 PM
The optimal seat is front & center, at the closest distance you can be & still NOT see any structure of raster or screendoor... this produces max detail & max image size. Realistically, you'll have to move back far enough to share or you'll get beat up a lot... :D

The viewpoint calcs I've seen for HD put optimal distance at 1.25 - 1.50 times the diagonal... SD is considerably further, due to the larger pixels...

HughScot
05-08-2005, 01:39 PM
Basically, that's true, but what is the best seat in the house (other than center)?
The recommendations for viewing distance have more than one basis. Some are based on screen height, some based on the diagonal screen measurement. -----------------

If one is a videophile, and if one is not why bother with HD, then one wants to sit in the best possible seat when viewing HDTV. The recommended viewing distance is not some whimsical figure that can fluctuate depending on how you measure it. Instead, THX has come up with a scientific way to measure the distance from the set to give the viewer the absolute best viewing experience. It is based on the diagonal size of the screen and the angle between the sides of the screen and the human eye. You can arrive at exactly the same number using the height or width of a 16x9 screen. That is just basic math.

Instead of just sitting where you are comfortable try sitting at the recommended distance for a couple of weeks and you will not go back more than a foot or two depending on the size of your screen. It may feel wrong at first but after awhile it will feel perfect. Then you can truly enjoy the HD experience.

It is the same with speakers.......audition a really fine pair of speakers in your home for a couple of weeks and you will not want to go back to your (fill in the blank) speakers.

But if you don't hear any difference with the fine pair of speakers and if you don't feel the visual experience with proper seating then you don't need a home theater and you can save a ton of money. Either way you win. :)

daleb
05-08-2005, 05:32 PM
If one is a videophile, and if one is not why bother with HD, then one wants to sit in the best possible seat when viewing HDTV. The recommended viewing distance is not some whimsical figure that can fluctuate depending on how you measure it. Instead, THX has come up with a scientific way to measure the distance from the set to give the viewer the absolute best viewing experience. It is based on the diagonal size of the screen and the angle between the sides of the screen and the human eye. You can arrive at exactly the same number using the height or width of a 16x9 screen. That is just basic math.

Instead of just sitting where you are comfortable try sitting at the recommended distance for a couple of weeks and you will not go back more than a foot or two depending on the size of your screen. It may feel wrong at first but after awhile it will feel perfect. Then you can truly enjoy the HD experience.

It is the same with speakers.......audition a really fine pair of speakers in your home for a couple of weeks and you will not want to go back to your (fill in the blank) speakers.

But if you don't hear any difference with the fine pair of speakers and if you don't feel the visual experience with proper seating then you don't need a home theater and you can save a ton of money. Either way you win. :)

Not all charts, including THX, agree totally with various manufacturer's recommendations, which may well be the most important recommendation of all for the display type being discussed.

In much the same way, recommendations for distances between speakers is based on ideal conditions. They can vary depending on other variables including room reflections, placement restrictions in a given room, or non-THX speakers, where the speaker manufacturer will give their own recommendation. Compromise or deviation are not dirty words. Sometimes it is simply a matter of what is practical or achievable in a given environment.

Because they are simple math formulae only means they are correct for the variables given. It does not mean all variables including differences between people as well as displays, are even considered.

There is still an abundance of non-HD programming available. So what may be ideal for HD viewing could well be too close for comfortably viewing SD material.
For that reason, many people compromise, rather than keep moving their seating position. Which is likely just about as tiring as having to repeat this again.

HughScot
05-08-2005, 07:19 PM
Not all charts, including THX, agree totally with various manufacturer's recommendations, which may well be the most important recommendation of all for the display type being discussed.

In much the same way, recommendations for distances between speakers is based on ideal conditions. They can vary depending on other variables including room reflections, placement restrictions in a given room, or non-THX speakers, where the speaker manufacturer will give their own recommendation. Compromise or deviation are not dirty words. Sometimes it is simply a matter of what is practical or achievable in a given environment.

Because they are simple math formulae only means they are correct for the variables given. It does not mean all variables including differences between people as well as displays, are even considered.

There is still an abundance of non-HD programming available. So what may be ideal for HD viewing could well be too close for comfortably viewing SD material.
For that reason, many people compromise, rather than keep moving their seating position. Which is likely just about as tiring as having to repeat this again.


Number one I have never seen a manufacturer recommend a viewing distance for an HDTV and if I did I would not believe it as these are the same people who ship televisions with the brightness and contrast set far too high so they will "look good" to someone who doesn't know what a video tv picture is suppose to look like.

With audio speakers you have the variables you mention above but that is not true with HD televisions. With HDTV you have the size of the screen and the distance to your eyeball. No variables to consider at all. The brightness of the room, the size of the room and the furniture in the room have no bearing on how far from the TV one should sit.

Due to mandatory furniture constraints and the wife factor the ideal sitting position may get changed. But that does not change the fact that a certain number of feet is the best distance for viewing an HDTV and unless you just don't care about picture quality one should attempt to sit at the proper distance. If you can't don't worry about it but everyone should at least know the best distance for viewing HDTV and work from that figure.

Lastly this is the "highdef forum" and the discussions are about high defintion televisons including the viewing of same. Therefore, where to sit to view SD has no bearing on the discussion. People can sit wherever they feel comfortable to view whatever they want, BUT if someone wants to know where to sit to view an HD picture there is a definite answer plus or minus a foot or so depending on the size of the screen. Larger screen equals more wiggle room.

When you try to say it all depends that is simply not the case. It is not often that we can answer a question with a farily definite answer and this is one of those cases. Now when you discuss best screen size or best type of display or best manufacturer then you have many variables including the depth of your pocketbook to consider. Let's keep it simple where we can. :D

daleb
05-08-2005, 07:54 PM
When you try to say it all depends that is simply not the case. It is not often that we can answer a question with a farily definite answer and this is one of those cases. Now when you discuss best screen size or best type of display or best manufacturer then you have many variables including the depth of your pocketbook to consider. Let's keep it simple where we can. :D

Hugh,
I never said there is NOT an ideal sitting location for watching HDTV. And it turns out the recommendation for minimum viewing distance, by the manufacturer of my display, is in accordance with that specification. Of course, that could be pure coincidence.
And yes, I too wish all manufacturers pre-calibrated displays to ISF standards. At least some standard like D65 so minimal adjustments would be needed in the home environment. Sorry I digress.

What I did say was the following:

"There is still an abundance of non-HD programming available. So what may be ideal for HD viewing could well be too close for comfortably viewing SD material.
For that reason, many people compromise, rather than keep moving their seating position. Which is likely just about as tiring as having to repeat this again. "

This in no way disputes the fact that there is a 'best distance' for viewing HDTV. Putting aside all the reasons I gave why people don't adhere to the 'best distance'.

I think in a round about way, and discarding tangential discussion about speakers and personal preferences, we have established agreement. :)