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What HD format to send to my 1366x768 lcd?

grunt_99
12-13-2006, 02:32 AM
Hi, new member here. I recently picked up an lcd 32" toshiba that's at fixed 1366x768 screen resolution. Slightly higher than 720p, and smaller than 1080i. Nice TV by the way.

What "should" give a better picture, sending it a 720p source and letting it upconvert, or send it a 1080i source, and let it downconvert? Since it's in the middle no man's land, what one - it closer to 720 than 1080, so I may choose that one.

I want to hear from people who have tried this, not from peopel who only have theories - not to be an a$$, but I find the whole HD discussions really depends on things you yourself have tried, or seen on your own, or friends equipment. Some swear by 720p, some 1080i. I don't want theory, I want opinions from real-world use.

I am wondering mainly about an upconverting DVD player. My HD satellite doesn't matter too much what format I send, but I have it on 1080i for the record. Currently I have a non-upconverting progressive scan player connected, but I think I'll be moving that player elsewhere, and am considering an upconverting one.

Now I know some people hate upconverters, but not me. I also have a 51" sony rear projection CRT HDTV, with an LG (Faroudja) upconverting DVD player, and yes, the upconversion makes a huge difference on that TV. The sony is not set at a fixed resolution though, and I feed it 1080i - sorry 720p fans ;) as I find it marginally better.

The 51" home theatre setup is in my basement and rather than drag it upstairs, disconnect everything, I'd like to know what you guys have found works best with these 1366x768 sets, 1080i or 720p first? I'm leaning towards 1080i in the opinion Faroudja is better than the Toshiba's REGZA technology (although it seems good too).

So before I haul everythign apart to test this simple question, I figure someone must know. I also hear there are new players that can even upconvert to the custom 1366x768 size, but that's beyond the scope of this question.

daleb
12-13-2006, 09:53 AM
You make two big assumptions that for the most part are incorrect.

The first is that many people throw out theories. That is simply not the case. Most express opinions based on 'personal' experiences.

I have a 720p display, but the 1080i setting on my Dish receiver is superior. The 720p setting on my DVD UC player is generally better than 1080i. (my display also has 1366X768 LCD panels)

Even a scaler with 768 output will generally not be accepted by displays with the smaller pixel structure. They will still be limited to 480, 720 or 1080 inputs. So you would be hard pressed to see any difference in PQ with a display using 1280X720.

In summary, there are too many variables associated with component compatibility AND personal perception, to say what will work best in any one person's situation. And that's based on fact not theory.

stchman
12-13-2006, 12:21 PM
Hi, new member here. I recently picked up an lcd 32" toshiba that's at fixed 1366x768 screen resolution. Slightly higher than 720p, and smaller than 1080i. Nice TV by the way.

What "should" give a better picture, sending it a 720p source and letting it upconvert, or send it a 1080i source, and let it downconvert? Since it's in the middle no man's land, what one - it closer to 720 than 1080, so I may choose that one.

I want to hear from people who have tried this, not from peopel who only have theories - not to be an a$$, but I find the whole HD discussions really depends on things you yourself have tried, or seen on your own, or friends equipment. Some swear by 720p, some 1080i. I don't want theory, I want opinions from real-world use.

I am wondering mainly about an upconverting DVD player. My HD satellite doesn't matter too much what format I send, but I have it on 1080i for the record. Currently I have a non-upconverting progressive scan player connected, but I think I'll be moving that player elsewhere, and am considering an upconverting one.

Now I know some people hate upconverters, but not me. I also have a 51" sony rear projection CRT HDTV, with an LG (Faroudja) upconverting DVD player, and yes, the upconversion makes a huge difference on that TV. The sony is not set at a fixed resolution though, and I feed it 1080i - sorry 720p fans ;) as I find it marginally better.

The 51" home theatre setup is in my basement and rather than drag it upstairs, disconnect everything, I'd like to know what you guys have found works best with these 1366x768 sets, 1080i or 720p first? I'm leaning towards 1080i in the opinion Faroudja is better than the Toshiba's REGZA technology (although it seems good too).

So before I haul everythign apart to test this simple question, I figure someone must know. I also hear there are new players that can even upconvert to the custom 1366x768 size, but that's beyond the scope of this question.

I have an upconversion DVD player and UC is all marketing hype. DVDs are NTSC 480i and therefore you won't get HD quality image.

I have taken my DVD player and hooked it up via component (480i) and not seen a difference between that at 720p or 1080i over HDMI.

The set will properly scale the picture for you.

UC DVD players are nice for the fact that they use HDMI and you can eliminate some cable clutter.

I cannot comment on UC on a CRT display as I don't own one. There might be some merit to UC for CRTs but not fixed pixel.

I have DISH also and cannot see a difference between 1080i and 720p as expected.

You have to feed your CRT HDTV 1080i as every CRT HDTV I have seen is 1080i.

What you can expect is that the LCD will be far sharper and brighter than your CRT.

grunt_99
12-13-2006, 03:54 PM
You make two big assumptions that for the most part are incorrect.

The first is that many people throw out theories. That is simply not the case. Most express opinions based on 'personal' experiences.

I have a 720p display, but the 1080i setting on my Dish receiver is superior. The 720p setting on my DVD UC player is generally better than 1080i. (my display also has 1366X768 LCD panels)

Even a scaler with 768 output will generally not be accepted by displays with the smaller pixel structure. They will still be limited to 480, 720 or 1080 inputs. So you would be hard pressed to see any difference in PQ with a display using 1280X720.

In summary, there are too many variables associated with component compatibility AND personal perception, to say what will work best in any one person's situation. And that's based on fact not theory.

Well I'm not interested in getting into a debate with you, but in fact you are making assumptions. You seem to think I' referring to people on this site throuing out theories instead of fact. I'm not. I wouldn't ask for opinions on here if I thought it was a bunch of idiots patrolling. I said at the top of my post that I'm new here - I've never even been on this site before. So there's no reason for you to take offense to my comments (there were MY experinces I was referring to, I don't see how you could judge them as assumptions, unless you're the amazing Kresin - are you? I always liked your show ;). I'm referring to other internet info & articles, I'll post some links if you'd like to see some examples, and conversations I've had with peopel, and salespeople even. Anyway, I just teasing you, but pls don't take my post the wrong way, sorry if I rubbed you guys the wrong way :(

Thank you for the info on your equipment, exactly what I am looking for. I am not getting a 768 scaler, but if I was, it would only be used on my 1366X768 panel. I wouldn't buy one for a 720p unit as there'd be no point.

grunt_99
12-13-2006, 04:14 PM
Ok, I'm not picking your post apart, I just find it easier to reply in chunks...and I'm not arguing, just stating my findings.

I have an upconversion DVD player and UC is all marketing hype. DVDs are NTSC 480i and therefore you won't get HD quality image.

I realize the DVD source limitations, and don't expect HD (I've owned this setup for close to 3 years now and am very familiar with it). Itgives a MUCH better pic that using 480p. That's what I'm mneasuring it against, not HD-DVD/blueray. The fact that it's in 1080i format doesn't make me think I have a HD movie. Perhaps in the context of a fixed resolution LCD UC is not worth using, but that's only part of the story, as you admit here:


I cannot comment on UC on a CRT display as I don't own one. There might be some merit to UC for CRTs but not fixed pixel.

I don't think it's fair to judge the technology based on only one aspect of it - it is very beneficial on my CRT hdtv.

My UC player is a good one, it UC's via componant or DVI, and uses the Faroidja technology - the best out there for UC. My opinion: don't judge UC technology as all the same, there are good ones (Faroidja), and poorly executed ones too). There's not one generic UC method. The LCD sets have the same type of technology as well, but my point is it may not be as good as the Faroidja one my UC has. The jury is still out, I'll have to conduct some field tests.


You have to feed your CRT HDTV 1080i as every CRT HDTV I have seen is 1080i.What you can expect is that the LCD will be far sharper and brighter than your CRT.[/ I know a lot of the recent ones do, but not the case for my Sony. I've had it for a couple of years now, it does 480p, 720p and 1080i. I've has the LCD for about a month. It does have a nice, bright pic, I love the brightness. The CRT is no slouch though, it's still my home theatre rig of choice over the LCD. I've seen some bad CRT ones though.

I concur, using my HD satellite on the LCD, I see no real difference between 1080i and 720p. But the dish has NO UC, it relies onlyon the TV's method. So I can't test faroidja UC vs toshiba's method using the satellite to see what one wins out.


One thing I find using the dish on it, is I prefer the componant pic over the HDMI pic. The color reproduction is nicer. HDMI has a (tiny) slightly better pic quality , but the color is not as rich. The difference in color reproduction was greater than the difference in pic quality. I tested this extensivly. And I've had to argue this with people that refuse to believe me becvause they read somewhere that HDMI "HAS" to be the best. I tried various cables too. In digging around I've seen others agree with my findings. But I'llreadily admit, it all depends on each piece of hardware. With my sat rcvr, and the toshiba lcd, that's the findings.

grunt_99
12-13-2006, 04:31 PM
You make two big assumptions that for the most part are incorrect.

The first is that many people throw out theories. That is simply not the case. Most express opinions based on 'personal' experiences.

I have a 720p display, but the 1080i setting on my Dish receiver is superior. The 720p setting on my DVD UC player is generally better than 1080i. (my display also has 1366X768 LCD panels)

Even a scaler with 768 output will generally not be accepted by displays with the smaller pixel structure. They will still be limited to 480, 720 or 1080 inputs. So you would be hard pressed to see any difference in PQ with a display using 1280X720.

In summary, there are too many variables associated with component compatibility AND personal perception, to say what will work best in any one person's situation. And that's based on fact not theory.


Oh, and I'm not sure where my second "wrong assumption" is? I only referenced a 768 upscaler in the conectext of a 1366x768 lcd, not a 720p or smaller resolution. I even said that was beyond the scope of the current conversation...??? :confused:

daleb
12-13-2006, 06:25 PM
Thank you for the info on your equipment, exactly what I am looking for. I am not getting a 768 scaler, but if I was, it would only be used on my 1366X768 panel. I wouldn't buy one for a 720p unit as there'd be no point.

There is no point in buying one for your 1366X768 panel either unless you know for a fact your display will accept a 768 input. Most do not.
That was my point which it appears you missed the first time around, or maybe I should have explained it more clearly.

You seemed to start off the topic in a defensive posture to start with.. so I guess I responded in the same tone.
I never said you were making assumptions with regards to your own findings. I said you were assuming we would respond to you with something not based on our own experiences and you wanted to make sure we did not waste your time. At least that's how it came across to me. A thousand pardons if I read it the wrong way!

Life is to short to waste on anything that is not helpful for everyone's benefit.
Welcome to the board, no hard feelings. Enjoy yourself, we are learning new things everyday!
Everyone's contribution is equally important. :)

grunt_99
12-13-2006, 10:36 PM
:) 's all good. I was just trying to avoid conversations I've had in the past where peopel would argue stuff, and then admit later they never actually tried what they were regurgitating from something they read somewhere. Again, I'm not implicatin this site or it's members in that, that's why I sought out a forum like this. For people who are into the topic.

There is no point in buying one for your 1366X768 panel either unless you know for a fact your display will accept a 768 input. Most do not.
That was my point which it appears you missed the first time around, or maybe I should have explained it more clearly.

You seemed to start off the topic in a defensive posture to start with.. so I guess I responded in the same tone.
I never said you were making assumptions with regards to your own findings. I said you were assuming we would respond to you with something not based on our own experiences and you wanted to make sure we did not waste your time. At least that's how it came across to me. A thousand pardons if I read it the wrong way!

Life is to short to waste on anything that is not helpful for everyone's benefit.
Welcome to the board, no hard feelings. Enjoy yourself, we are learning new things everyday!
Everyone's contribution is equally important. :)

PFC5
12-14-2006, 12:36 AM
Grunt:

I would beg to differ on your "opinion" about Faroudja being the best upconverter. The Faroudja chip does a great job with de-interlacing no doubt but it is not the best even in that regard. It is probably the best "Bang for the Buck" de-interlacer though.

Faroudja has had problems for over 2 years now with macroblocking and they keep thinking this is a "feature" instead of a defect. Many HDTVs display this anomaly and it can be quite horrible matching a source with the Faroudja chip and a Panasonic Plasma, and MANY MANY other displays also. Panny makes a great plasma, but other than an S97 or S77 Panasonic UC player I wouldn't use a Faroudja based player with them.

I think you will find a great group of guys here to discuss/debate HT with. Daleb & Stchman are to such people.

Welcome aboard! :hithere:

grunt_99
12-14-2006, 03:00 PM
Hey there, well my LG faroidja player doesn't have any macroblocking iussues, and as far as I know (just from hearing bits & pieces here & there), the ones that do are a result of the company (ie Panasonic (as an example brand only) poorly implementing the chipset's features, rather than a flaw with the faroidja design???

That said, I'm not argueuing it's the best. I do think it's the best I've seen myself up close & personal, and back 2+ years ago, when I bought it, the only ones better were beyond the reach ($$$) of all, but the Donald Trump's out there.

The general consensus I've seen was always Faroudja, follwed quite a bit behind by Silicon Image (it could have changed recently???).

And I wanted to really test the faroidja vs the Toshiba. My faroidja is over 2 years old, the LCD is brand spanking new. This is why I'm asking, if I believed faroida was the best, end of story, I would not even ask about this and would never have posted :) And yes, it was an "opinion". This must be the most sensitive forum I've ever posted on before LOL. :D

What chipset do you personally rate higher than the faroidja?

Here's a snippet from this upconverting article that rates some: http://www.connectedhomemag.com/Visual/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=50124

"...Faroudja is the maker of the best known and most revered chipset among videophiles. The venerable Genesis FLI2310 chip, found in many high-end, expensive players and a few affordable players such as the OPPO OPDV971H, has a battery of video-enhancement technologies. Faroudja pioneered 3-2 pulldown (or film mode) detection. Cross Color Suppression compensates for artifacts caused by composite video mastering and smoothes out the edges of saturated color fields. TrueLife Enhancement bumps up details in things like skin texture and hair. Directional Correlational De-interlacing (DCDi) tackles the jaggies with impressive results.

Silicon Image chipsets are often mentioned in the same breath as those of Faroudja, and either one has exceptional deinterlacing, scaling, and image-enhancement performance. Its SiI504 chip has a sublime, motion-adaptive deinterlacer in video mode and features a buffer that predicts upcoming breaks in cadence to avoid hits to the resolution that occur while switching from film to video mode. Unfortunately, the buffer sometimes contributes to audio synch troubles.

DVDO’s iScan and the Silicon Optix Realta with Hollywood Quality Video are two other leading video-processing chipsets. Most consumer electronics companies worth their salt offer receivers, upconverting DVD players, HDTVs, and projectors with top-quality video processors. Said companies include Denon, JVC, NEC, OPPO, Runco, Sony, Syntax Olevia, Toshiba, and Westinghouse Digital..."

Grunt:
I would beg to differ on your "opinion" about Faroudja being the best upconverter. The Faroudja chip does a great job with de-interlacing no doubt but it is not the best even in that regard. It is probably the best "Bang for the Buck" de-interlacer though.

Faroudja has had problems for over 2 years now with macroblocking and they keep thinking this is a "feature" instead of a defect. Many HDTVs display this anomaly and it can be quite horrible matching a source with the Faroudja chip and a Panasonic Plasma, and MANY MANY other displays also. Panny makes a great plasma, but other than an S97 or S77 Panasonic UC player I wouldn't use a Faroudja based player with them.

I think you will find a great group of guys here to discuss/debate HT with. Daleb & Stchman are to such people.

Welcome aboard! :hithere: