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Hdcp

gweid
12-09-2004, 01:11 PM
This is my first post on any type of forum. Here goes.
What is the deal with HDCP? My brother has a Sony WEGA 60in. DLP rear projection tv he got last December. He just bought a Direct TV Sat. receiver HD w/Tivo. I am now finding out he/we cannot use the HDMI>DVI connection. We have to use Analog Comp. for HD.
Anybody else coming across this situation? Any solutions?

borromini
12-09-2004, 04:21 PM
HDCP (high-bandwidth digital content protection) has no work-arounds. If the HD receiver has it, then the display must support it as well in order for you to use the digital connection. All of Sony's current line of products that have HDMI/DVI ports support HDCP. It's unfortunate, but you'll have to use component. :(

maximus
12-09-2004, 04:33 PM
Thank Hollywood, thank them by sending them an e-mail as to how they plan to address all these problems with HDCP.

hdtv4me2
12-10-2004, 08:59 AM
FYI, Sony doesn't make a DLP set. It must be LCD or a CRT RP.

Mainstreet
12-23-2004, 08:57 AM
I'm surprised your Wega 60" RPTV does not support HDCP.

I ran into an issue with my Sony 42" RPTV periodically displaying the DVI warning message about HDCP not being supported (when using the DVI port on the STB). However, my TV does support HDCP. It ends up there is an issue with a recent firmware upgrade which enabled the DVI port on my TWC STB.

Perhaps you have a similar issue.

rbinck
12-23-2004, 10:05 AM
Many cable boxes are reported to have a HDCP issue. Other issues are the need to turn on the TV before the cable box so that the cable box gets the HDCP acknowledgement from the TV. That seems like a pain to me having to remember to turn them both off and then back on in sequence.

borromini
12-23-2004, 10:21 AM
I'm surprised your Wega 60" RPTV does not support HDCP... The OP didn't say it was the TV. He just says it's not working when connecting the STB with the TV via DVI/HDMI. It's probably his STB that's causing the problem.

mfabien
12-24-2004, 06:51 AM
Thank Hollywood, thank them by sending them an e-mail as to how they plan to address all these problems with HDCP.Not sure what you are saying here...

Hollywood has little to do with cable boxes that have an enabled DVI output or a defective software update to activate the DVI.

If your comment is intended to discredit Hollywood for their position to eliminate piracy of movies, as practiced on the Internet in a big way, then your view could be deemed shortsighted.

A good technical DVI or HDMI connection (proper software) will not block out any broadcast and will not impede recording on DVR's. But it will impact HD reception of flagged programs on computers so as to prohibit transmission to others.

From a technical standpoint, HDTV's built to display a digital picture have better results with an uncompressed and digital signal such as offered by DVI and HDMI. Furthermore, we expect that one day these type of connections will be the only way to receive HD, if the STB used has such a output port. It may be important for users of HDTV's without DVI input to keep around an old STB which does not have DVI so that in the future, Component will still be allowed to display HD.

rbinck
12-24-2004, 09:00 AM
I think the issue is that Hollywood forced the industry to incorporate some sort of protection before they would allow movies in HDTV to prevent piracy. Not just on the internet, but the cloning of DVDs as well.


The real culprit lies here in this statement:
A good technical DVI or HDMI connection (proper software)
Here the industries involved has done a poor job in the standardation of the testing area. And because of that many times when equipment of different manufacturers are connected together, they are not compatible.

If Hollywood had insisted on a reliable standard that included the functioning of the HDCP equipment as well as the protection of the content, we would have had to wait for compatable equipment, but we would not have had these problems.

Is the culprit Hollywood? Or is it the equipment manufacturers? I vote the manufacturers. But what manufacturer wants to test their cable box with every TV on the market that supports DVI/HDMI? What TV manufacturer wants to test their TV with every source box? Not many.

It will improve over time. Someone will create a test standard and offer a box that manufacturers test to. Meanwhile, we early adopters just have to grin and bear it.

mfabien
12-24-2004, 09:53 AM
The advent of High Definition did not come from Hollywood or Government. See:http://mptv.org/dtv1.htm


Then the FCC was sold on the idea and ruled on the gradual changeover from analog to digital television with analog to end maybe in December 2006.

The MPAA (Movie Producers Association of America) quickly realized that turning movies into digital HD for television could be dangerous. But they became supportive of HDCP as a Content Protection protocol. See:
http://www.hpaonline.com/files/public/CBHuntFinal.pdf

As for manufacturer testing, it appears that HDMI adopters are better supported for testing, see:
http://hdmi.org/pdf/ComplianceTestingPoliciesProceduresv1.pdf

than is testing for DVI adopters. See:
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/cgi-bin/framed.pl?Document=/Measurement/Solutions/digital_video_interface/compliance.html&FrameSet=oscilloscopes

For that reason, second generation of DVR's, such as the SA8300HD equipped with HDMI output works well whereas very few SA8000HD have their DVI activated and in most cases there are troubles. SA plan to have these problems corrected in February.

Another facet to the picture is the Broadcast flag. See:
http://www.mpaa.org/Press/Broadcast_Flag_QA.htm
and the problem with the flag is the writing of software by all the broadcasters to enable a flag as intended (which is to impede mass distribution) and not exclude facilities (DVR's, Computer HDD for those equipped with DVI/HDCP) by private users. Broadcasters are reluctant to start because they are afraid of the results. They have until July 1, 2005.

rbinck
12-24-2004, 10:10 AM
Excellent summary and reference links. Thanks.

smather
01-27-2005, 12:39 AM
2 hours ago my projectorsetup in my media room stopped getting signal. I play with it and get the message "Your display does not support HDCP". It has been working for weeks and I just ran the DVI cable through the walls and in ceiling. I call Brighthouse and they informed me that the FCC has done this and not them. When the FCC detects a DIV signal without HDCP they flag it and this happens.

First Jacksons nipple now this... total bupkiss :mad:

BTW, if anyone else gets screwed like this there is one work around and that is to buy a DVI to component adapter. They are easy to find an not very expensive. Since this will give you 720P it is not a big hit in resolution

gooner23
01-27-2005, 01:26 AM
I have been struggling with a similar issue, on a Samsung DVD Player HD945 connected to a dvi port on a Hitachi projector and also an IBM Dvi 19" flat panel. Neither were producing a picture because the Samsung is HDCP and they are not. However I found on the net a hack for the Samsung to make it multi regional. To my astonishment this hack (as promised by the poster) also got rid of the HDCP on the HDMI output. Fantastic. Both projector and flat panel are now working on Dvi with this player. I felt totally euphoric for a couple of hours I have to admit!!!

HDCowboy
01-27-2005, 06:46 AM
I feel our purpose should be to try to help people coming here for information.... while learning ourselves. :)



Some STB's are equipped with an HDMI output and must be connected to a DVI TV input. In some of these cases the cabling can be a problem but it is usually resolved with an alternate cable.

Your point about cabling is correct. But, of the type of connection usually the reverse is true... that is that more often the STB is equipped with DVI out while the TV has HDMI in... Either an adapter cable or adapter plug to cross connect HDMI/DVI would fix this.


Some DVD players come with a DVI connection, for example the Samsung HD841. However the DVI output is a DV-I with 29 pins which is a digital to analog fitting and the unit comes with a DVI-I cable which is not HDCP compliant (DVI-D digital to digital has 24 pins).

close... a more concise explanation (with photos) can be found here...
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/dvi/index.htm

Important note; both DVI and HDMI are digital connection applications. HDMI also carries within the same cable the "audio" portion of the signal. DVI requires seperate audio connectors.



Some HDTV owners using an HDCP compliant device (DVI or HDMI) are not using the appropriate procedure to connect the TV to the STB which is to Power On first the TV then the STB, and, to Power Off first the STB then the TV. I was able to have my STB/DVR remote coded to do this (both the TV and the STB) in a one step click of the Power button for both On and Off.

The issue you are describing is not the "connection" but the "operation" of these HDCP compliant devices... the purpose of the sequence is so that a proper "handshake" protocol occurs between the devices.
The TV will output to the STB (in some cases a message - maybe 'du1' - will appear on the STB display) and then powering up the STB will complete the protocol...

Hence the importance of the sequence of the operation. Turn the STB on too quickly (ie before it has received from the TV) and Voila... NO "handshake". Turn the STB on before the TV...NO "handshake"... - NO "handshake"... NO image.

Turning off the devices in the reverse sequence is equally important for maintaining this protocol.


Others have opted to forget about using DVI or HDMI and reverted to a Component connection. That will work now and most of the time in the future. However, in a few months when the Broadcast flag is operational, they will find that a certain important movie or program is downrez to 480i via Component.

There are no guarantees about the future (death the exception.... as one can even evade taxes.... ;) )

This is why people who are about to make a purchase of these newer HDTVs and STBs need to be aware of the "copy protection" and need to be aware of the pitfalls.

I would be extremely angry at "WHOEVER" thought up this little thing called "HDCP" if my new set could only display down-resolution 480i OR p because the STB was an HDCP compliant device and the TV set wasn't. Just when I thought I bought an HDTV or HD ready set... :eek:


Now you can maintain your attitude and get your readers mad about the whole world as if they are enemies of HDTV. Or you can start learning more about the subject of HDCP.

I believe the moderator is aware of the subject. (MHO)(my humble opinion)

and I was already mad... no one holds enough sway to "get" me mad I "get" mad all by myself...


If you elect to get people mad because you find the HDCP thing unreasonable and against their interest, you should fight this the political way (democracy, remember?). You either enter political life and run for office or you pressure your local Representative or Senator to get the FCC to ban HDCP.

Certainly you would agree that pressuring the vested intrest groups, like the entities that WANT HDCP, (ie Hollywood, Motion Picture production companies) would be far more effective than writing to a local Representative or Senator, who doesn't even know what HDCP is. Wouldn't you?

God bless us all..... we're gonna need it.

HDCowboy
01-27-2005, 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus
I guess I'm a lousy short-sighted Moderator, but I'm also a human being and I don't like having my buttons pushed repeatedly by a maximus troll...

...


Not acceptable.


Now mfabien... if you are mad... try not to "get" everyone else mad at the moderator..... maybe try being a moderator.... :D

Or write to your local Representative or Senator.... :confused:

smather
01-27-2005, 12:18 PM
I spent 60 or 70 hours installing projection system, heck I even made theatre style curtains for my screen and I get this HDCP bulls#it. I mean really mad! Hostile to the point of wringing the guys neck who suggested it in the first place. I can relate to moderators expressive stance.

What is the big freakin deal anyway. We can record TV shows already they just don't want us doing it at HI Def. That really stinks. I just want to watch my new expensive system, not record. I've got thier handshake right here [said while grabbing crotch]

Is HDCP a law or a standard? The FCC has gottent way to big for thier britches. Pixalate a cartoons butt; the problems with a republican government

HDCowboy
01-29-2005, 03:35 AM
I've got thier handshake right here [said while grabbing crotch] :eek:

Pixalate a cartoons butt; the problems with a republican government

ROTFLMFAO :D :D :D :D :D