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interlaced, progressive, cinemotion they all look the same!!!

ResistOrServe
06-30-2006, 09:58 PM
They all look the same!

They are supposed to give 4 x density and i know it only sharpens the image an not make it hi-def, but do they all suppose to all look identical???

I have the new sony 34xbr970

by the way 1080i is very pretty on this tv for anyone considering this tv


thanks
kenny

Porcupine
07-01-2006, 03:41 PM
The Sony User Manual descriptions of these settings are misleading. They could even be called totally inaccurate.

Progressive and Interlaced (applies only to SD signals) should not look identical. Switch between them and try to learn to see the difference. With Progressive you can see slight scanlines, while with Interlaced you won't but the image may "shimmer" or "vibrate" slightly instead. Progressive displays SD signals as 540p, Interlaced displays them as 1080i.

The effects of Cinemotion will be even more subtle I think. The only thing Cinemotion does is apply 3:2 reverse pulldown to the source. It's only intended for viewing movies, not live-action sports/cartoons/etc. It may not work properly on all movies either. Chances are though you won't notice the difference whether it is on or off, or malfunctioning or not. When working properly the only thing Cinemotion does is improve the de-interlacing job the TV does of the input SD interlaced signal. The TV de-interlaces regardless of whether Cinemotion is on or off, but with Cinemotion it will de-interlace and look to weave frames together more aggressively (thus sometimes incorrectly weaving and malfunctioning/combing).

ResistOrServe
07-02-2006, 12:40 PM
thank you very much, I was watching dvds and they didnt seem to be any better. IN FACT, alot of dvds especially anime werent as clear and id rather watch them on a regular tv.

thanks again , kenny

BobY
07-02-2006, 09:49 PM
Most animation, including Anime, does not update frames at 24 Fps, so I'm not sure the reverse pull-down will work, as it won't recognize the 2:3 cadence of 24 Fps film converted to 60 fields-per-second DVD video.

You should see a difference between interlaced and progressive, but you must hook your DVD player to your TV with either Component Video cables or DVI/HDMI, not Composite Video or S-Video.

Your TV already upscales SD video to HD pixel density and does not support the 720p HD scan rate (converting it to either 480p, 540p or 1080i--I don't know for that model), so if you are using an upscaling DVD player, you won't see much difference between setting the player to 480p, 720p or 1080i.

Porcupine
07-03-2006, 03:53 PM
Most animation, including Anime, does not update frames at 24 Fps, so I'm not sure the reverse pull-down will work, as it won't recognize the 2:3 cadence of 24 Fps film converted to 60 fields-per-second DVD video.I watch pretty much all Anime so I'm sort of an expert on this I guess. You are right in what you said, it's weird. It's obvious that most animes are "made" at 24 fps but when they are stored on DVD for some reason they get stored as 60 fields-per-second DVD Video. When I try to apply reverse 3:2 pull-down on those animes it does work 90% of the time, but every so often the image will comb badly (the sign of a failed weave and malfunctioning reverse 3:2 pull-down). I wonder why that is. Even if 24 fps sources are stored as 60 fields-per-second, if it is done perfectly it should still be perfectly reverse 3:2 pull-downable.

Other animes, mostly those mastered to DVD (not originally made) by American big-name production studios (for regular movies too, not just animes), really are stored on DVD disc as 24 fps progressive, so reverse 3:2 pulldown works perfectly on those. Examples are like the Miyazaki movies and Pokemon movies, and early Pokemon DVDs of TV episodes. It seems to depend on the mastering company. I dunno why the "anime-exclusive" production companies that release most animes don't do it right...are they bad?

Some animes really are originally made at 30 frames per second (not fields) but they are rare. It's never really caught on for some reason.

BobY
07-03-2006, 10:38 PM
Although films are stored as 480i/24 (well, 480Psf/24) on conventional DVD to save disc space, they are translated on the fly to 60 fields-per-second (480i/30) via pull-down for compatibility with NTSC video. The player performs pull-down on film content, but not video content, based on flags in the data stream that tell the player to repeat fields. Displays don't have access to these flags (and very often the flags that differentiate film from video and which indentify progressive frames are incorrectly set when the films are mastered to DVD), so most external processors rely on detecting the frame repetition cadence to differentiate film from video and decide whether to perform reverse pull-down.

The question here is, although animation films are created at 24Fps, the actual images on the frames themselves are changed at a lower rate than that, so it may be the case that processors cannot reliably tell what's going on when comparing fields or frames in an effort to detect the cadence.

Porcupine
07-04-2006, 05:23 PM
No disagreement on the first paragraph. Although in the case of most animes released by anime-exclusive distribution companies the animes themselves are stored on DVD disc as 480i/60 fields per second. Those are the ones that don't get reverse pulldowned correctly by the TV set, for some reason. Animes that were released by more Americanized distribution companies (Miyazaki movies, Pokemon, etc) that tend to also release many American films, are usually stored as 480/24 on the disc. They do get translated by the DVD player to 60 fields per second to send over composite/S-Video but the TV generally reverse-pulldowns it back perfectly, even on animes. As long as they were originally stored on disc as 480/24.

The question here is, although animation films are created at 24Fps, the actual images on the frames themselves are changed at a lower rate than that, so it may be the case that processors cannot reliably tell what's going on when comparing fields or frames in an effort to detect the cadence.

Well it still works for some animes, and from what I've seen whether it works perfectly or not has nothing to do with how the anime was made, it's just how it was mastered on the DVD disc, as I said above. It's true that animation shows will animate irregularly depending on what they drew, but an anime that was originally made at 24 fps will animate irregularly but always in perfect synchronization with the 24 fps master frame rate. In other words, you won't ever get half an animation frame and half of another smushed together into one 1/24th second "frame". As long as that requirement is satisfied the anime should still count as a 24 fps show and reverse pulldown performed on the TV's end of things should still be smart enough to detect it correctly, which I think is the case.

Most animes screw up because the anime-exclusive distribution companies store the show as 480i/60 on disc and somehow in the process the perfect 3:2 sequence is screwed up on occasion on the disc itself, even though the shows were originally made at 24 fps (maybe once a minute or so). I don't know why this is or whose fault it is, though. But for these shows (most anime) it's definitely far better to leave reverse 3:2 pulldown off. With it on, you'll get true progressive scan (all fields weaved instead of bobbed) 90% of the time, but 10% of the time you'll get a combed frame that looks real bad. Not worth it in my opinion.

BobY
07-05-2006, 03:44 PM
If the films are converted from 24Fps during mastering and actually stored on the disc at 60 fields per second, that would mean they wouldn't be using the repeat field/frame flags and mosty likely the DVD player would assume it was actual 30Fps video content and not perform reverse pull-down. If the mastering process created combed frames by combining fields from two different frames (very common during pull-down), the player would not remove them.

If on top of that, the display was unable to reliably detect film cadence as a result of the of less than 24 different Fps of animation, that might cause the problem.

Another possibility, unless you're certain that the films are *stored* as 480i/30, is that the film frames are stored *as drawn* (which is less than 24 differnet Fps) and they use the repeat flags to make the player convert it to 60 fields-per-second. This would produce an unrecognizable cadence.

I think in most cases, if the flags can't be used and film cadence isn't reliably detected, the player and display default to video mode.

Porcupine
07-05-2006, 04:07 PM
> If the films are converted from 24Fps during mastering and actually stored on the disc at 60 fields per second...the DVD player would assume it was actual 30Fps video content and not perform reverse pull-down. If the mastering process created combed frames...the player would not remove them.

Yup that's right. The DVD player just outputs 60 fields/second video content from these discs. Still, the original show was made at 24 fps even though it was stored on disc at 60 fps, so you'd think the TV would still be able to detect that and reverse pulldown perfectly, but for some reason that turns out to not quite be the case usually.

Most animation studios master DVDs correctly enough these days that the DVD itself doesn't contain combed frames. Only when you turn on the TV's 3:2 reverse pulldown algorithm will the combing appear, and even then it will only appear on rare occasion.

> Another possibility...is that the film frames are stored *as drawn* (which is less than 24 differnet Fps) and they use the repeat flags

There is no possibility of this because in general, although the animation pictures tend to animate irregularly, the backgrounds are often cheesily scrolled at 24 fps (that's how you know the anime is mastered at 24 fps as opposed to 30 fps...you check the background scroll...for animes mastered at 30 fps it's apparent because the background scroll is smoother). Animes are either stored at 24 fps constant or 60i constant. Also I've tried ripping a few anime DVDs to hardrive and the ripping program tells you the storage format of the DVD.

BobY
07-05-2006, 09:32 PM
The display is relying completely on detecting the 3:2 frame cadence for reverse pull-down since it doesn't have access to the flags or any other useful info in the data stream. All it would take would be a few repeated frames of the 24Fps material to throw the detection off and have the display drop out of film mode intermittently. As I understand it, animation is full of redundant frames to pad it from what it was drawn at to 24Fps.

In the venerable telecine pull-down process of converting actual film to video, it's very common to have bad frames as a result of synthesizing new frames to pad 24Fps to 30Fps using the fields that are available at a given instant of time--often that's field 2 from the previous frame and field 1 of the current frame. If the two fields are from visually unrelated frames, weaving them together for a progressive image would be bad. I would expect that modern digital animation could avoid this.