High Def Forum
Thank you for visiting. This is our website archive. Please visit our main website by clicking the logo above.

Pioneer delays Blu-ray player launch until "autumn"

eHDMI
06-06-2006, 06:09 PM
TOKYO, June 6 (Reuters) - Japanese electronics maker Pioneer Corp. (6773.T: Quote, Profile, Research) said on Tuesday it would postpone the North Amercian launch of next-generation DVD players using Blu-ray technology to this autumn from its previous launch schedule of June, citing a delay in the development process.

Pioneer is a supporter of the Blu-ray format for next-generation optical disks. Blu-ray is up against a rival standard called HD DVD.

That's got to hurt....Blu-ray is a sinking ship

Original Article (http://today.reuters.com/stocks/QuoteCompanyNewsArticle.aspx?view=CN&storyID=2006-06-06T081357Z_01_TKV002488_RTRIDST_0_TECH-JAPAN-PIONEER-BLURAY.XML&rpc=66)

tvine2000
06-06-2006, 08:53 PM
it sure looks like a sinking ship,unless pioneer is the ny yankees of electronics, samsung will have to carry the torch. i do think this maybe wishful thinking because hd-dvd has always been the underdog and everbody roots for the underdog,besides toshibas hd-dvd player is performing better then we thought it would. sometimes delays are a goodthing,i woundnt count bluray out yet.the thing that gonna kill bluray is price,1000 bucks for really a basic player with less features than hd dvd is nuts and greedy on there part. the general public is very happy with sdvd. hd and bluray is a hard sell. and really sddvd is hd and bluray biggist mountain to over come. think about it,hd and bluray are asking you ,me anybody to go out and buy a hd tv,but the hdtv has to be 1080i or 1080p so how many people know that. 2. go out and buy a hd or bluray dvd player. theres not many people who can make that jump.these companys are gonna have to make it easyer to buy these products. if hd and bluray want to be sucessful they are gonna have to take a bite out of sddvd,,,, lower the price!!!!!

paulc
06-07-2006, 09:11 AM
I think 95% of the issues with high definition DVDs is the format war. I think both sides screwed themselves royally by not consolidating the two standards. I'm not touching either one until there is only one.

Folks who "can't wait" and start buying will mostly serve to keep the "war" going, delaying the inevitable. If nobody bought either, my guess is there would be a single standard in 6-12 months. People buying in the next 6-8 months will absolutely mean that some collection of folks will ultimately get screwed (maybe I have a bias as I went for quality and got Beta back in the day).

SLedford
06-07-2006, 10:37 AM
Paul,

My plans are to hold off until a good, reasonably priced universal player is available. You suggested that if no one bought either format the war would end in 6 - 12 months. That would depend upon how the studios viewed the lack of progress:

- if they viewed it as a lack of interest, then they would just kill both formats and stick with DVDs
- if they viewed the lack of sale as a result of the format war, it would still require Sony & Toshiba to sit down and work things out. I think that it is too late for a compromise at this point.

I share your anger and frustration with both Sony and Toshiba for not getting their collective acts together on the front end. Perhaps they will learn from this when the replacement for high def DVDs rolls down the pipeline 10 years or so from now. But probably not.

stride8
06-07-2006, 04:12 PM
People will get smart and buy the PS3 that will carry the blueray technology for between $500-$600 along all these other goodies:

Product Name: PlayStation 3

Logo: PLAYSTATION(R)3

CPU: Cell Processor

PowerPC-base Core @3.2GHz
1 VMX vector unit per core
512KB L2 cache
7 x SPE @3.2GHz
7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs
7 x 256KB SRAM for SPE
* 1 of 8 SPEs reserved for redundancy
Total floating point performance: 218 GFLOPS
GPU: RSX @550MHz

1.8 TFLOPS floating point performance
Full HD (up to 1080p) x 2 channels
Multi-way programmable parallel floating point shader pipelines
Sound:

Dolby 5.1ch, DTS, LPCM, etc. (Cell-based processing)
Memory:

256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz
256MB GDDR3 VRAM @700MHz
System Bandwidth:

Main RAM -- 25.6GB/s
VRAM -- 22.4GB/s
RSX -- 20GB/s (write) + 15GB/s (read)
SB -- 2.5GB/s (write) + 2.5GB/s (read)
System Floating Point Performance:

2 TFLOPS
Storage:

Detachable 2.5" HDD slot x 1
I/O

USB Front x 4, Rear x 2 (USB2.0)
Memory Stick standard/Duo, PRO x 1
SD standard/mini x 1
CompactFlash (Type I, II) x 1
Communication:

Ethernet (10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX, 1000BASE-T) x 3 (input x 1 + output x 2)
Wi-Fi IEEE 802.11 b/g
Bluetooth 2.0 (EDR)
Controller:

Bluetooth (up to 7)
USB 2.0 (wired)
Wi-Fi (PSP)
Network (over IP)

AV Output

Screen size: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
HDMI: HDMI out x 2
Analog: AV MULTI OUT x 1
Digital audio: DIGITAL OUT (OPTICAL) x 1
Disc Media:

CD PlayStation CD-ROM, PlayStation 2 CD-ROM, CD-DA, CD-DA (ROM), CD-R, CD-RW, SACD, SACD Hybrid (CD layer), SACD HD, DualDisc, DualDisc (audio side), DualDisc (DVD side)
DVD: PlayStation 2 DVD-ROM, PlayStation 3 DVD-ROM, DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW
Blu-ray Disc: PlayStation 3 BD-ROM, BD-Video, BD-ROM, BD-R, BD-RE

tvine2000
06-07-2006, 07:11 PM
stride8 your missing the point,500. to 600. for a ps3 who cares anyways. thats a lot of money. for a format to win this war, you take the loss and lower the price. sddvd is solid man it sells its in 65 million homes. sony, samsung, toshiba,there out to make money,there greedy they lust for the big bucks thats the real world ,thats what this war is all about. what these companys need to see is sometimes to make money you you have to lower the price take the loss and people will buy the product. toshibas got the right idea 499. for a hd dvd player,but again it could be lower.bluray is playing this all wrong. if i had to chose id go with hd-dvd. 1000. for a player thats insane. anybody that buys abluray player is insane at this point. right now im watching and waiting,and ill laugh when you guys start holling about all the problamsyour having with these 2 fomats

Conshy04
06-08-2006, 06:32 AM
I'm not touching either one until there is only one.

).
I am not touching either one until they are capable of 1080p output for god's sake!!!

fryet
06-08-2006, 10:37 AM
"what these companys need to see is sometimes to make money you you have to lower the price take the loss and people will buy the product"

I was going to say something really caustic, but my internal censor has prevented me. (: Suffice it to say, I am sure there are plenty of very smart people in both Toshiba and Sony with business MBA's that have considered a lot of different scenarios including the one that you suggested. In some cases, they have rejected your strategy. In other cases, they don't feel that it is economically viable for them.

On the main topic of this thread, one of the strengths of the Sony camp is that they have multiple vendors developing Blu-ray products. Pioneer can miss their shipping date, and Blu-ray can still be delivered on time. I think it is quite premature to say that Blu-ray is a sinking ship at this point.

cwittig
06-09-2006, 05:46 AM
Valid points by all on this thread. The only thing I can add is from my personal experience.

In 1977 I paid $1150 for a 50lb, top loading, on-off wired remote, Magnavox VHS machine. I didn't have the spare $$$, so I got it on credit. Blank VHS tapes were$24 each. I knew when I made the buy that it was way overpriced (IMHO) and that in a short while, the prices would drop. BUT I wanted it badly enough to overcome my feelings of getting raked over the coals for profit.

Now, back to the present. I was pretty much in the HD-DVD corner, but, like a bunch of others, I wasn't going to touch the formats until there was a winner or standardization. So, why did I reserve a PS3??? Because I want it badly enough to overcome my feelings of getting raked over the coals for profit. The fact that it uses Blu- Ray is secondary to me. Which means that I will hook it up to my PJ in my theater, play games on an 8' screen and as an added bonus, watch some movies in HD. I'm not made of money, but I have been preparing to buy the PS3 and preparing to pay the initial price for the unit.

Whatever happens between the formats is something that I will deal with and make the appropriate adjustments. I won't look for a "title by title" Blu-Ray replacement of my DVD collection because it just isn't practical at this point. With up conversion on my Denon player, my standard DVDs look good enough for my old peepers :) .

I also feel that Sony is shooting itself in the foot by allowing Toshiba to get out the door first at half the price. I am still angry over the two companies not "doing the right thing" and standardizing, but it is what it is. People with lots of money are going to have no qualms about plunking down a grand for a Blu-Ray player, so I expect the format war to be in full swing. I also think, however, that by the spring, Blu-Ray players will start to be competitive in pricing with HD-DVD. If that happens and some of the predicted early glitches in Blu-Ray are ironed out, then I think Blu-Ra will eventually win out. People will want to buy a movie that fits on one disk rather than two.

Of course these are all my opinion and guess work. What I'd really like to see (in a perfect world) is for the public to not pick up on either format and cause these greedy SOBs to suck wind.

Thank you all for a good thread.

SLedford
06-09-2006, 06:38 AM
cwittig,
That was a well written comment that touched on several valid points.

We collectively need the trailblazers who are willing to get into a new product early on, despite the cost and quality issues. We need the larger group (I am in this one) who step in when the price drops to "reasonable" and help get the product further down the road. And we need the masses who will not get involved till the price drops further and the product becomes more established.

I have seen criticism of each of these type people:
- the trailblazers for beeing stupid enough to buy into an early, overpriced product.
- the second wave folks for not getting in earlier ("life is short, enjoy now").
- the masses, who are frequently viewed as stupid sheep, but who in the end will make or break HD / BD-DVD.

It has been encouraging to see this forum move away in the last week or so from the attacks / name calling. Perhaps it is recognition that in one sense, we are all on the same side - we want a high def DVD format still standing when all the smoke clears. If it is not the format one was pulling for initially, it will still be better than standard def DVD.

paulc
06-09-2006, 09:02 AM
It occurs to me there may be a another factor in HD optical delivery...

Now no matter what you feel politically about it, it is well established that technical innovation from the adult industry has always had a very significant effect on home entertainment in general. So if you're looking at technology trends, it pays to keep an eye on these guys.

At least 2 years ago, there started to be "Hi Def DVDs" from these guys. HD in that they met the resolution standards. BUT, they were data discs with files that needed a computer in the chain to play back. (If you want to take a gander at this, go to Apple's site, head for the movie trailers area and all the HD" trailers are well marked).

Factor in that AFAIK, all HD sets have "PC" inputs.

Factor in that probably for quite a while now, the studios have a chain already in place that can produce a SD DVD, but could very easily (i.e. with no additional scanning or expense) produce a DVD with computer files in high enough resolution to produce a legit HD experience.

Now there are a thousand assorted good and bad points to be bright up; all I'm saying is essentially the technology is already there. I do NOT think it's that big of a leap to see the studios try this "method." I mean, at home, my desktop is way too far away from my panel, but it ain't out of the question to get something like a Mac mini and permanently hook it to my HD TV. It would cost less than what the initial BluRay players cost BUT it has way, way more possibilities as part of a home entertainment system.

dobyblue
06-09-2006, 09:15 AM
I am not touching either one until they are capable of 1080p output for god's sake!!!
Blu Ray is capable of 1080p and the upcoming releases of The Fifth Element and others for Blu Ray will be 1080p.

I think Sony are being very smart with the PS3. Not only is it 1080p Blu Ray compatible but it will also fully support DualDisc specs and SACD. This will allow many game buying people who previously have not experienced lossless audio to realise what they've been missing, boost Sony's SACD product and give gaming in 1080p and movies in lossless 192/24 7.1 audio, even though it will be a while before the movie studios are utilizing such a high bit rate in their dialogue and sound effects departments.

SLedford
06-09-2006, 09:50 AM
paulc,

I downloaded the Lord of the Rings trailer about 6 months before the movie actually came out. It was a high def trailer like you mentioned.

There has been speculation on this forum that Microsoft would like to see both formats fail and be replaced by an on-line option, similar to downloading the LOR trailer. This may come into play as an alternative to disk movies, but I don't think that it will replace them completely. It could replace picking up a disk at Blockbuster. Here is why I feel that way:

- many people want to actually own the movie, which means (for now) a DVD / HD/BD-DVD.
- disks are portable. When I visit family, I generally take along a few DVDs that they haven't seen, and they do the same when they visit me.
- DVDs are instant viewing. No getting on-line & selecting a movie, making payment options, etc.
- Even with a cable modem, downloading a file as large as a high def movie would take time.
- Although I have not tried it myself, there is a whole section in this forum that deals with issues involved with connecting the PC to a television and getting the desired image. It is not as easy as it seems.

I think you are on to something in the long run, perhaps as a replacement in 8 - 10 years for high def DVDs. Perhaps when the technology & bandwith are ready for this amount of data.

ah802
06-09-2006, 10:56 AM
I note the delay hasn't stopped TigerDirect from posting BR instock...!

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2148778&CatId=482

zeke2.0
06-13-2006, 09:18 AM
paulc,

I downloaded the Lord of the Rings trailer about 6 months before the movie actually came out. It was a high def trailer like you mentioned.

There has been speculation on this forum that Microsoft would like to see both formats fail and be replaced by an on-line option, similar to downloading the LOR trailer. This may come into play as an alternative to disk movies, but I don't think that it will replace them completely. It could replace picking up a disk at Blockbuster. Here is why I feel that way:

- many people want to actually own the movie, which means (for now) a DVD / HD/BD-DVD.
- disks are portable. When I visit family, I generally take along a few DVDs that they haven't seen, and they do the same when they visit me.
- DVDs are instant viewing. No getting on-line & selecting a movie, making payment options, etc.
- Even with a cable modem, downloading a file as large as a high def movie would take time.
- Although I have not tried it myself, there is a whole section in this forum that deals with issues involved with connecting the PC to a television and getting the desired image. It is not as easy as it seems.

I think you are on to something in the long run, perhaps as a replacement in 8 - 10 years for high def DVDs. Perhaps when the technology & bandwith are ready for this amount of data.


MS just wanted to be sure VC-1 was included in both specs. That means millions and millions of Windows owners will be able to produce HD content affordably, and play back either on line, on the HD or on the disk. The big argument from MS was HD-DVD supporting legal copying to a home theater server (using some sort of MS based streaming server of course), I think Blue-Ray has come around but not sure.
Funny thing is, H.264 offers similar features plus support for MACs via Quicktime and 10bit color.:)

Right now what annoys me is every tv site is either using some locked proprietary player using standard codecs or poorly constructed flash video.

As far as downloading, you have a point, but several sites are starting to give you the option of scheduling your downloads.

paulc
06-14-2006, 07:29 AM
M$ has one and only one goal. To get content providers to lock their content to something that will ONLY work under a M$ OS.

FWIW, you may "own" the disc itself, but you license the ability to view the movie...

I think that one very likely future scenario may be On Demand. There's zero scale right now, not to mention there's no HD. And there are infrastructure issues and good business models to be devised.

The only thing for sure is that they WILL get $$ from you (us) one way or the other. A lot of stuff that COULD have been happening the past 5 years didn't mostly because DVD sales were red hot. That is starting to cool now, so they are looking for something to grab folks to keep the $$ flow going in their direction.