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Sony vs. Samsung, Part II

ADWyatt
12-30-2005, 03:55 PM
In a previous thread, I wanted to know how the Samsung 56" 1080p set compared to the Sony 60" SXRD in the opinion of people who had seen both sets. Unfortunately, I forgot to qualify that question, so I'll do that here...

People, I really really appreciate your opinions, and am deeply grateful for the time you take to write back, but P-L-E-A-S-E understand that I am only asking you for your personal opinion on which set looks best to your eyes. I would ask you not to inundate me with the usual disclaimer, "Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beholder." I already know all that. I've known all that since before dinosaurs stalked the earth. Sheese!!

My point is that if I get enough negative comments on one brand or the other, and people take the time to tell my why they found a particular TV more or less appealing, I'd be in a better position to know what to look for.

OK, I got some people mad with these comments, and I'll have to face the Wrath Of God. But after you get done roasting me, could you give me some honest opinions?

Thank you.

inazsully
12-30-2005, 04:14 PM
The PQ is really very very close, especially when viewing HD or DVD with an upconverting player. I do however feel more comfortable with the LCOS technology. Looking at the market now and 6 months from now LCOS seems to be a safer bet to me.

Viewer
01-01-2006, 10:17 PM
Check out the TI white papers on DLP

http://www.dlp.com/dlp_technology/dlp_technology_white_papers.asp

Article named "Effects of Operating Conditions on DMD Hinge Memory Lifetime" of interest.

In addition, Not all LCOS implementations are technically the same, and they should not be thought of as identical. This has practical consequences. For example, those familiar with the recent Texas Instruments study that highlighted a particular failure mode in LCD are aware that LCD panels may eventually degrade over the long run due to a breakdown of organic compounds used in their construction. JVC has made it clear that there are no organic compounds used in the D-ILA technology and therefore this failure mode does not exist with D-ILA. Thus image reliability of their products over the long run is comparable to or exceeds that of DLP. The same cannot be said for every version of LCOS on the market.

LordGAD
01-01-2006, 10:45 PM
How's this:

I liked the Sony best, so I bought one, though in 50".

bigloader
01-01-2006, 11:42 PM
I just got a sony 42". I was considering buying a samsung because that's what Dan Marino has and he's rich, but I heard that Sony TV's are better for watching pornography on. I hope I made the right choice.

iserum
01-02-2006, 01:41 AM
SONY SXRD is better than SAMSUNG unit, i would recommend you to check Mitsubushi 1080P DLP, personally i think Mitsubishi DLP's are most closest to SXRD. i have seen them at a local TV store with good inputs and better lighting, MITS tv will save you money for almost same PQ as SXRD.

If you can live with 50 inch set plasma is very good option as it will eliminate changing lamp every 6K hours $250 every time on you RP tv sets.

01_01_01_11_00
01-02-2006, 02:24 AM
I just got a sony 42". I was considering buying a samsung because that's what Dan Marino has and he's rich, but I heard that Sony TV's are better for watching pornography on. I hope I made the right choice.

Yes you can see far more detail with your homo porno dvds you watch.

Emsurfer
01-02-2006, 08:11 AM
I prefer the SONY SXRD the BEST, then for the 50+ and 60+ inch DLPs, the TOSHIBA, but the MITSU for the 70+ range. The Samsung looks pretty nice too. :)

Darrylhifi
01-02-2006, 06:45 PM
You have not seen good porn until you get The Oppo :D

maicaw
01-02-2006, 08:21 PM
In addition, Not all LCOS implementations are technically the same, and they should not be thought of as identical. This has practical consequences. For example, those familiar with the recent Texas Instruments study that highlighted a particular failure mode in LCD are aware that LCD panels may eventually degrade over the long run due to a breakdown of organic compounds used in their construction. JVC has made it clear that there are no organic compounds used in the D-ILA technology and therefore this failure mode does not exist with D-ILA. Thus image reliability of their products over the long run is comparable to or exceeds that of DLP. The same cannot be said for every version of LCOS on the market.That TI test Long-Term Data Projector Color Performance Test (http://dlp.com/dlp_technology/images/dynamic/white_papers/156_Picture_Reliability_Study_Phase_II_White_Paper .pdf) seems to be a newer version of one done several years ago when they were first flogging the new technology - They intentionally fried the LCDs using a test designed to go easy on the DLPs according to critics - It appears the canal scenes in this one are the same - hope they didn't just use the old methodology or results in a new test/paper.- the "Testing Schedule" and "Measurement Procedure" outlined in this report seems fair IMO. -but who leaves their LCD PJ on for 5000 hours [or even 100] continuously??? - DLP hinges will fatigue too -presumably leading to premature failure- if they are not given R&R periodically LIFETIME ESTIMATES DIGITAL MICROMIRROR DEVICE (DMD) HINGE MEMORY LIFETIME RELIABILITY MODELING (http://dlp.com/dlp_technology/images/dynamic/white_papers/154_Hinge_Memory_Paper_IRPS2002.pdf)....excerpt...
Comparing the lifetime estimates from the two methods showsthat the methods yield similar results. The Vb50 +/- degradation
method predicts a mean lifetime of 11,000 hours at 65C and theWeibull-Arrhenius method using non-functional mirrors failure
criteria yields a mean lifetime of 11,700 hours at 65C. While the two prediction methods agree reasonably well, the latter approach
also predicts a 1% failure rate at 500 hours. This does not agree with practical experience from qualification testing where hundreds ofdevices have completed 1000 hours of 5/95 duty cycle life testing at65C with no hinge memory failures. The actual activation energy islikely higher than the 0.78 calculated from Figure 8. Reasons for thediscrepancy between modeling results and qualification may include:-I have yet to see a figure for the MTBF [mean-time-before-failure]for the first hinge in a panel of 1 million+ hinges being cycled 50,000 times/sec each- well within the 12ưsec DLP spec BTW--[60hz framerate x 12 strobes for a 4x 12-color colorwheel =720] x [120hz wobulator = 120 ] ) x =5) --- - so - all told =720x120x5
or about -as was stated above - 50,000 operations of each of over a million hinges [U]per second for 3600 seconds per hour and even 3 hours a day -1000 hours per year - think you're still gonna see every one of those 1 million pixels- next year - 200 billion flips later- for each of 1 million hinges - 200x10 mechanical operations?? :eek: -maybe ;) time will tell -

lmolinari78
01-02-2006, 09:11 PM
I saw the new Samsung 50" DLP 1080p today and I was really impressed. I had been debating over the JVC HD-ILA 720p set or the Panny 50U (720p) Plasma but after seeing this samsung Im gonna do more research.

I really like the Sony sets but they didnt look as good as the samsung 1080p and they dont look as good as plasma's.

Viewer
01-02-2006, 09:32 PM
http://www.dlp.com/dlp_technology/images/dynamic/white_papers/155_IRPS2003_DMDHingeMemoryLifetime_Sontheimer_Meh rl_5C3.PDF

Previous papers [1] [2] have introduced the hinge memory failure
mechanism with a mean lifetime of 100,000 hours for worst case
duty cycle and continuous operation. This paper provides improved
lifetime estimates for nominal operating conditions at video duty
cycles and with normal power on and off cycling. It discusses hinge
memory in the same vein as any other semiconductor failure
mechanism and shows that we have conquered this problem. The
paper documents that hinge memory is reversible and is not a
permanent degradation unlike CRT phosphor burn out and LCD
browning. It even points out that hinge memory can be completely
removed by a screen saver type operating mode. Lastly, it provides
an estimated lifetime of over 225,000 hours at nominal duty cycles
and non-continuous use conditions. This demonstrates that a MEMS
device such as the DMD can provide superior lifetime as compared
to other competing display technologies.

maicaw
01-03-2006, 02:59 AM
The paper I referred to DIGITAL MICROMIRROR DEVICE (DMD) HINGE MEMORY LIFETIME RELIABILITY MODELING -contains the following statement and a chart attached Non-functional mirrors The number of additional non-functional mirrors is monitored periodically throughout the tests and has been shown to be a useful metric for predicting lifetimes. A typical hinge memory failure occurs when the mirror will no longer land to one side when operated at projector bias conditions. This is because the residual torque angle is so great that the electrostatic forces can no longer land the mirror on the opposite side. Figure 8 is a Weibull plot of the 0.7 Extended Graphics Adapter (XGA) 14 micron 10 tilt angle device lifetime as a function of temperature at three test temperatures of 65C, 85C and 95C using non-functional mirrors as the failure criteria. Figure 8 uses the same population of test devices as Figures 6 and 7.I take the chart (below) to mean that in a 1024x768 array would have 20 failed mirrors after 1000 hours of normal video operation at 85C - The other papers including your citing seem to refer to individual mirrors or groups of 14K and not 800K pixel arrays as in XGA or 1million as in 960x1080 for wobulated 1080 displays Each data point is based on the average performance [did they neglect to add ?? :confused: --(of each) of 14,000 mirrors in each of the 3 sections of the 16 devices on testFinally, lifetime is estimated under typical 40C TV use conditions to be 150,000 hours with the lower 20/80 duty cycle and exceed 225,000 hours with noncontinuous operation.their statement - is ambiguous --the whole panel could last that long without any failures -but since the tests were necessarily done over a year or less (8000 hours) - even with statistical forecasting - that conclusion would be hard to justify unless they were talking about individual mirrors lasting on average that long - so IMO - speaking statistically (bell curve) at 40C (104F) a few would fail quickly (infant mortality) and some would never fail during the test - but the largest portion would fail between 100,000 and 250,000 hours

Correction ---The figure of 10 mirror flips per year - used in my previous post actually occurs in 1-hourof wobulated operation - or in 6-12 hours of 1x colorwheel or 3 DLP arrays - a figure of that magnitude for microscopically visible mechanical motion -see attched picture) - (not molecules (LCD,LCOS) or electrons (Plasma, CRT,computers,XBOX360s) - means that failures are occuring - they must not be visible - and here is why I think they are not -
The DLP pixels overlap for several reasons - you can verify this by trying to see individual pixels on a large DLP screen - on a 60" screen each pixel should be about 1/16" on a side -much larger than a round toothpick - on a LCD RP or flat panel or plasma -you can see them easily - on a DLP they are vague diamond shapes and blend into one another -in fact they do not have any visible boundaries because they are ::--
1)defocused by the imperfect flatness of the individual mirrors (as in Hubble Space Telescope)- and
2)the +/- 10 mirror shifts are off slightly for the same mirror on separate flips and --- not exactly identical for adjoining mirrors - on average over time it all evens out- :rolleyes:
So --the actual instantaneous pixel on the screen is located in an area the size of several pixels - with an average location of where it should be - If one pixel dies the surrounding pixels are blurring into that area already with about the same amount of light as the dead pixel -remeber how hard it was too find an individual pixel - so it isn't missed - even though that pixel's location may be slightly dimmer -it's not white because the dead mirror is in neither off nor on position (the flat - or unbiased state as TI calls it) -
My XBOX360 is supposed to have over 500 million "transistors" - I have faith in these people I just don't think they tell us all the facts about needed redundancy and how it degrades the performance.

RSawdey
01-03-2006, 11:51 AM
But I wonder if the methodology is valid... when looking at IC chip failures, higher temperatures correspond to increased migration of dopant out of the semiconducting junction... and that is the usual mode of failure. But here, we're not looking at molecular scale effects with the much larger mirror hinges... and I don't think metal fatigue is very sensitive to this relatively small temperature difference... perhaps hinge failure isn't the cause, but just a symptom of an underlying failure of the driving circuitry. In that case I guess the temperature accellerated failure rate would apply...

maicaw
01-03-2006, 12:41 PM
just to make a further correction - to the calculations -50,000 was on the high side of what I thought was reasonable - I should have used 2x for the load caused by wobulation - I also dropped a decimal place - the mistakes mostly cancel -so it's more like 10,000 - so the total mirror flipping is still a hyper-physical number - the total flips per year becomes 10x10 - according to my revised calculation -

ADWyatt
01-03-2006, 02:20 PM
Thanks, everyone, for your replies. This has helped me to consider things that I hadn't thought of before. Sorry for the offensive post.