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bi-wiring

sayer
12-10-2005, 04:04 AM
is there any importance or is there any improvment in sound quality by, bi-wiring the hi frequency and low frequency at the rear of speakers? If not then which do i connect to the receiver the hi or low frequency?

daleb
12-10-2005, 04:17 PM
Biwire speakers are meant to have the drivers in the speaker powered by individual amplifiers.

The advantage is supposed to be improved sound quality as each amplifier does not have to work as hard reproducing the entire frequency range.

Where you do not use individual amplifiers (like most of us), you place a short to tie the them together, and hook your receiver, etc. as you would to any other speaker.

If the speaker manufacturer did not provide shorts (in most cases they are already installed) then do the following:
You would apply 2 shorts with a some wire: one short + to + and another - to -. OR red to red...and another black to black.
Now do the same on the other speaker.

Now connect your speakers as normal to either pair of terminals.

If you only connect to one pair without shorts, you will only hear highs, OR lows, not both. In the case of highs only, you could damage the speakers also.

maicaw
12-10-2005, 05:31 PM
What is Bi-wiring and Bi-amping?
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/109419.html ..... If you look at the amplifier as a current source, then for amplifiers and receivers that are capable of supplying lots of current into low impedances, biwiring could offer theoretical advantages, particularly to loudspeakers that are linear and smooth, like the Axiom M80ti and M60ti, by eliminating potential intermodulation distortion between the low- and high-frequency portions of the audio signal. Using biwiring, this distortion would not occur because the low-frequency part of the speaker crossover would draw the current it needs for the woofers (and they need lots of current) through one speaker cable, while the midrange tweeter section would draw less current (it doesn't need as much) through its own speaker cable. This could prevent intermodulation distortion that may occur using one big "fire hose" or single speaker cable. (Using two cables per speaker will also lower total resistance to the audio signal -- and that is well and good, although a single run of 12-gauge cable to each speaker will keep resistance to an insignificant level, well below 0.3 ohms.) Will it sound any different if you biwire? Some users think it does, but I've never heard any differences, nor have any of our laboratory measurements or scientifically controlled double blind listening tests ever demonstrated there are audible differences. Axiom includes the extra terminals as a nod to those enthusiasts who believe that biwiring results in audible benefits and for the bi-ampers- "This could prevent intermodulation distortion that may occur using one big "fire hose" or single speaker cable."I don't get that part - wires - especially big ones are inherently linear - {increasing amplitude of signals does not change their waveshape] passing two signals through a linear network [speaker wire] cannotcause intermodulation distortion - besides that - even the highest quality speaker diphrams (cones) are notorius for intermod IM and harmonic distortion THD -on the order of 10% or more - thats the main reason for using separate cones for high and low frequencies -and so are microphones IMO- that's why artists have favorite speakers and mics just like they have favorite sounding acoustic instruments - bi-wiring is just a matter of more marketing BS from marketing sound-mystics - bi-amping may be another story - but that should only be needed for auditorium venues - not HT

daleb
12-10-2005, 08:08 PM
that's why artists have favorite speakers and mics just like they have favorite sounding acoustic instruments - bi-wiring is just a matter of more marketing BS from marketing sound-mystics - bi-amping may be another story - but that should only be needed for auditorium venues - not HT

Bi-amping (as I think is more appropriate for HT and home audio discussions) started with hi-end speakers and 2 channel audio. The basic principle following the analogy of the 'fire hose'.
A less strained amp can work with less effort if it is amplifying across a smaller range of frequencies.
If it is done properly, it should work just fine in a correctly configured system with quality speakers.

With improvements in loudspeaker design, including more sophisticated crossovers, I think it has lost any real advantage. Not to mention added costs for additional amplification. Making it totally impractical for the most folks at home. Besides the added complexity, more tuning is needed to level match the amps., etc.

Yes, for large venues, it is still used to some extent. But on such a large scale the details to make it work properly in that environment do not necessarily cross over to home use, especially in the HT scenario.

maicaw
12-11-2005, 12:10 AM
Bi-amping (as I think is more appropriate for HT and home audio discussions) started with hi-end speakers and 2 channel audio. The basic principle following the analogy of the 'fire hose'...and in your earlier post #2 ---Biwire speakers are meant to have the drivers in the speaker powered by individual amplifiers I am sure you know that biamping is the use of two or more amps for each channel - where as bi-wiring is the use of separate speaker cables for each speaker woofer,mid,tweeter as desired from a single amp - " to prevent intermodulation distortion that may occur using one big "fire hose" or single speaker cable''WHICH IS NOT CORRECT----. ]---[ Your posts seem to speak to biamping or as in the case of post #2 biwiring as used with biamping - a different solution for a different problem - the OP was asking about only bi-wiring and the portions of the article I cadged spoke only about biwiring - and the quote about acoustic distortion referred to a type of distortion that is generally admitted to be much greater than any amp and cabling distortion and since it occurs before and after the content is an electronic signal (analog or digital) - it will not be remediated by things like biamping and biwiring -- - as I stated [your comments about] biamping is a different story and the subject has its technical merits.- mics distort, amps distort , speakers distort, wires don't do intermod and they don't distort unless they are undersize

daleb
12-11-2005, 01:31 PM
This is my only experience with speakers that have 2 sets of input terminals that can be bridged, as one set, like a conventional speaker.

I am picturing a speaker with 2 sets of inputs. One set goes to the mid-range and tweeter, another to the woofer.
I use a separate amp for each 'set'.

Optionally, you can bridge the two sets of terminals and use just one amp. to power all drivers.

So would you say I am bi-amping a speaker that has bi-wire capability?

I understand, when you bridge the terminals, an internal cross-over is placed in the circuit. (Though one likely still exists between the tweeter and mid range in this example).

maicaw
12-11-2005, 02:13 PM
I understand, when you bridge the terminals, an internal cross-over is placed in the circuit. (Though one likely still exists between the tweeter and mid range in this example).here's the conclusion of the article linked 2 in my earlier post - It's not the best artilce I've read on the subject - a better one is in the Lansin Heritage sites but I can't find it at this time - or try wikipedia - anyway here's the Biamping part of this article Bi-amping, or biamplification, is used mainly in professional sound reinforcement applications, where extremely high levels of loudness are required. Here big, separate amplifiers powering the low frequencies, and smaller amps for the midrange will increase overall output. Sometimes they will use a separate outboard electronic crossover (the speaker's internal crossover is disabled or bypassed entirely) so the operator can vary and adjust individual crossover frequencies, tailor the "slope" of the crossover to match the strengths of each set of drivers, and also adjust the relative sonic balance of bass, midrange and treble to suit the environment. This is important for huge auditoriums or outdoor events where separate arrays of treble and midrange horns are operating with big "bass bins," but such systems have no place in domestic home theater systems in normal rooms. Additionally, it puts control of the relative smoothness and tonal balance into the hands of the sound system operator, a dangerous tool for all but the most experienced sound reinforcement experts. It also partly explains why the live sound at so many concert events (not all, mind you) is so awful.

markfoto
12-12-2005, 01:23 PM
We audio engineers have been arguing about this stuff forever...
I have returned full circle to the easiest postion; if you hear the difference, go for it.
Here's another: Cables. Testing shows no difference between 12 gauge electrical wire(on one exreme) and THX Monster cable(on the other), yet I hear a difference. Subtle, yet noticeable.
So, go figure. Do what sounds best to your ears....and doesn't pinch your wallet too hard

Oh, BTW, I was one of those guys that makes your favorite band sound so awful... :hithere:

rsud
02-05-2009, 04:32 PM
Here's another: Cables. Testing shows no difference between 12 gauge electrical wire(on one exreme) and THX Monster cable(on the other), yet I hear a difference. Subtle, yet noticeable.


Late to this party (3 years!) but thrilled to see that someone actually tried listening to cables and behold....!

Hope you have since made forays into other high-end cables and equipment. BTW Monster is to high-end as chivas is to good scotch.
While there's plenty of snake oil there's also plenty of good cable.

*Learn to Listen*

Loves2Watch
02-05-2009, 04:36 PM
Placebo effect.

nascarrmike
02-05-2009, 08:26 PM
Every thing in Nature takes the path of the least resistance, water, electricity, love, money ect.:banghead:

daleb
02-06-2009, 11:17 AM
Purists would use totally isolated drivers and outboard crossovers. Some others with polished ears perceive to hear a difference so a fair amount of speaker manufacturers provide bi-wired terminals but the capability for true bi-amping is limited by costs.
For most home systems any advantage is likely to be negligible.

DaveJ
02-06-2009, 03:09 PM
I can remember reading an article regarding bi-amping a long time ago. The author recommended bi-amping with a solid state amp for the woofers and a tube amp for the mid-tweeters because the tubes gave a sweeter sound but the solid state amp was better for the bass. Of course, he also recommended active crossovers. All I could think was "what a nightmare it would be to balance that system".
dave

daleb
02-06-2009, 05:46 PM
I can remember reading an article regarding bi-amping a long time ago. The author recommended bi-amping with a solid state amp for the woofers and a tube amp for the mid-tweeters because the tubes gave a sweeter sound but the solid state amp was better for the bass. Of course, he also recommended active crossovers. All I could think was "what a nightmare it would be to balance that system".
dave

For sure, that's why most recommendations today say to use the same identical amps.