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Cheap HDTV (Samsung?) Advice

PSzalapski
09-12-2004, 06:38 PM
I too am looking for a cheap HDTV to hold me over until the nicer TVs REALLY come down in price. I need the following features:


16:9 ratio
27" or larger
DVI input
Dolby Digital output
Component video input (a given?)
Cheap! Preferably $650 or less, but maybe a little more would be okay
Built-in tuner (I am fortunate to get 15 DTV channels, nine of them HD, over the air).


Is Samsung my only option? Any other suggestions?

Another question: I notice some of these TVs have a "native resolution" of "1080i/480p". What does that mean? Are they not as good for 720p? Also, why would a CRT have a "native resolution"?

Thanks in advance.

P-Sz

maximus
09-12-2004, 09:49 PM
Sanyo HT30744 HDTV
This is the perfect HDTV for you, everything you need and more, and most importantly reliability.
http://www.sanyo.com/entertainment/televisions/digital/index.cfm?productID=904
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2601425&cat=108509&type=19&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A3996%3A108509
They are out of stock online but your local Walmart should have em. There is a good reason too these things are selling out.

All displays have a "native resolution".
http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5107912-15.html
Right beside native resolution there is a box "TV and HDTV resolutions compared" a great little reference chart.

maximus
09-12-2004, 10:16 PM
Check here;
http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=1320

I've heard this referred to as "barrel roll" but it is hardly noticable on my set, doesn't bother me at all.
You might be able to reduce this in the service menu however I have not and do not intend to go there, someone else here might provide the service menu access code. I will look for it and post info.

PSzalapski
09-15-2004, 10:28 AM
Thanks for the advice. I may get the Sanyo or a Samsung. Another question about I just read:

"CRT-based projection TVs can have more than one native resolution"

Why can't I get a tube TV with 720p resolution? Do all CRT TVs convert 720p to 1080i for display?

P-Sz

maximus
09-24-2004, 03:00 AM
Do all CRT TVs convert 720p to 1080i for display?
Yes pretty much all of them...

Why can't I get a tube TV with 720p resolution?
There is one, maybe more;
http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/directview/dm7352sf.asp

rbinck
09-24-2004, 01:52 PM
The reason why there are not many direct view TVs made that will handle 720p is cost. TV picture tube for years have been based on roughly 480 video scan lines top to bottom. Getting them up to 540 for the 1080i format (remember that's two scans of 540 each) was not much of a problem as compared to the 720 lines required for the 720p specification. Another issue is the scan mask in the picture tubes. The scan mask is a plate mounted behind the inside surface of the CRT that has holes in it to allow the electron beam only to get through to the phosphers where there is a dot to be displayed on the screen. If you refer to the link maximus gave for the 34" Monivision, you will notice that unit has a 0.36mm Super Fine Pitch. That means each pixel is 0.36mm in size, which is very good for a TV monitor. Many computer monitors up to 19" will have a 0.28mm dot pitch. Either way, this is expensive technology and would explain why they are not widely available.

Now take the 0.36mm pitch and multiply it by 1380 dots for the width of a HDTV picture operating in the 720p mode and you wind up with a picture width of 496.8mm and with that set being 580mm wide overall, it works out. Most direct view TVs will not even publish their dot pitch as most are in the .50mm or greater range.

Bear in mind that just because a TV will receive a 1080i signal does not mean it will display at that resolution. I have a Zenith multimedia TV that will display 800x600 through the VGA input. That is the native resolution for that TV. It will not display higher resolutions clearly. It will accept a 1920x1080i input signal as well, but if this is input through my computer the display is blurred due to the picture being displayed at a lower native resolution. 800x600 is clear as well as a 1080i HDTV pitcure is clear, although that is mostly due to the optical illusion our minds allow to fill in missing detail of the two 540 line passes.

cavecreekrich
10-03-2004, 09:14 PM
Thanks for this post. After much headscratching I went right over to my friendly Walmart and picked up the Sanyo HT30744 for under $700. So far the set exceeds all my expectations. I am so thankfull that you let me know about this set as I never thought of searching out Walmart for hdtv.
thanks

Gothmogs
10-12-2004, 09:41 PM
i just thought i would let u guys no i use a sanyo HT30744 HDTV and it will display all resolutions how i no i am useing a Toshiba SDV592 Upconversion and HDMI Outputconected to the TV through the HDMI input . and i also like the HDMI much better than Y/Pr/Pb (Component)the colours the resolution in every way its better :o).

PSzalapski
11-08-2004, 11:47 AM
Thanks very much, rbinck, for your knowledge and insights! That makes a lot more sense to me now.

I delayed my purchase due to lack of funds, but might be able to get it soon. Has anything changed regarding the Sanyo TV you guys suggested? Will/should prices drop on this or a similar TV before or after Christmas?

george chicago
11-19-2004, 04:30 PM
Best Buy has the Toshiba 30HF84 with HDMI input for $850... and are running 10% off and 0% financing deals... also the Phillips 30" at about $750 seems good... Costco had the Phillips 30" for $599 this summer but it was last year's model without the HDMI input... for $100, the HDMI is definitely worth it... both and tubes... I have the Toshiba and it is excellent.. no regrets other than I wish they went with two (2) HDMI inputs... George / Chicago

talrudeboy
12-13-2004, 01:58 PM
Never heard of that brand but the specs looks good.
The only thing is the crt does not look flat. Are they still producing more?

Is this just for PCs?
I cannot get any pics of the back
I saw a page that said it has 2 svga inputs


Got it
http://www.psism.com/dm7352sf.htm

I do not think it is worth it.

subysouth
03-02-2005, 10:46 AM
The reason why there are not many direct view TVs made that will handle 720p is cost. TV picture tube for years have been based on roughly 480 video scan lines top to bottom. Getting them up to 540 for the 1080i format (remember that's two scans of 540 each) was not much of a problem as compared to the 720 lines required for the 720p specification. Another issue is the scan mask in the picture tubes. The scan mask is a plate mounted behind the inside surface of the CRT that has holes in it to allow the electron beam only to get through to the phosphers where there is a dot to be displayed on the screen. If you refer to the link maximus gave for the 34" Monivision, you will notice that unit has a 0.36mm Super Fine Pitch. That means each pixel is 0.36mm in size, which is very good for a TV monitor. Many computer monitors up to 19" will have a 0.28mm dot pitch. Either way, this is expensive technology and would explain why they are not widely available.

Now take the 0.36mm pitch and multiply it by 1380 dots for the width of a HDTV picture operating in the 720p mode and you wind up with a picture width of 496.8mm and with that set being 580mm wide overall, it works out. Most direct view TVs will not even publish their dot pitch as most are in the .50mm or greater range.

Bear in mind that just because a TV will receive a 1080i signal does not mean it will display at that resolution. I have a Zenith multimedia TV that will display 800x600 through the VGA input. That is the native resolution for that TV. It will not display higher resolutions clearly. It will accept a 1920x1080i input signal as well, but if this is input through my computer the display is blurred due to the picture being displayed at a lower native resolution. 800x600 is clear as well as a 1080i HDTV pitcure is clear, although that is mostly due to the optical illusion our minds allow to fill in missing detail of the two 540 line passes.


I fundamentally couldnt agree more with almost everything you have posted here, but a couple of points of order.

On CRTs its imperative to seperate portions of their image production. The CRTs not only have to be able to scan the desired resolution but the screen has to resolve it too.

If you take almost any old 4:3 480i CRT you will find it has about 640x480 available seperate phosphor triads which could provide unique picture info and the sets get scanned at 480i. Everythings fine so far, screen resolution and scanning are well-matched.

Fast forward to now with the current crop of "HD" sets. If the CRT is attempting 1080 it should have at least the ability to resolve 1080 unique vertical pixels(the set manufacturers got the horizontal portion essentially thrown out early.) Most current "HD" sets are attempting 1080i(because its easier to scan as rbinck noted) but most of those have a screen well shy of being able to resolve 1920x1080i, or even just the 1080 portion. One of the first best 34" 16:9 CRTs was a Panasonic that cost around $6500. The number of openings in its slot mask totalled 1117x611. So how do you think its gonna be able to resolve 1920x1080 unique pixels? Simply, put it cant. CRTs have several fundamental build limitations that make them difficult to build as HD sets.

This brings me to my next point, the .36mm pitch cited for the Monivision - its a misprint. The dot pitch on that set is .82mm. How youre doing your math is correct though, retry using .82mm for the actual max screen resolution for this set. Drivng that set at 960x540p for all inputs would be sweet.

http://www.monitoroutlet.com/999745.html


The lowest pitch that can currently be found in a large format CRT is found in the Sony Super Fine Pitch tubes and averages(it changes slightly around the screen and H&V) around .48mm. The largest true HD capable(capable of fully resolving either 1280x720p or 1920x1080i) CRT is the Sony GDM-FW900 computer monitor and its about 22.5" viewable.

The current crop of 34" Sony SFP tubes COULD fully display 720p but theyre not trying it unfortunately. They have actual screen resolution somewhere in the neighborhood of 1400x900(the vertical is hard to pin down on Sonys, so thats a guesstimate on the vertical.) They are missing resolving 1080i by the narrowest margin out there.

ss

edit: and I should also add that most large format CRT sets have average pitches around .9-1.0mm. Thats why they generally look so bad as computer monitors. Computer CRT monitors have pitches around .25mm. The 34" "HD" sets usually are in the .78 - .85mm range. Sonys SFP tubes are unprecentedly low for a large format set. And there are another set of downsides to that....

RSawdey
03-04-2005, 03:02 AM
The Monivision is unique as the only consumer multisync HD compatible display. It's screen is NOT flat. It's best image is 720p60, not 1080i30... although it does do both 'natively'.

The reason CRT based TVs are 'monosync' is for cost reasons... and legacy issues. All TVs accept ONLY a 60 Hz. refresh, other rates can damage them. The reason fixed pixel displays like DLP are single res should be obvious... only so many hardware pixels.

Accepting a signal format doesn't mean it is displayed that way... all images are eventually scaled to the native res of the device since that is the only res it can produce. All else is electronic format conversion. Displays with unusual hardware res's like 1366 x 768 are continuously scaling... ones exactly equal to a standard res, like the DLPs at 1280 x 720, don't have to scale when presented that 720p signal.

subysouth
03-04-2005, 07:54 AM
The Monivision is unique as the only consumer multisync HD compatible display. It's screen is NOT flat. It's best image is 720p60, not 1080i30... although it does do both 'natively'.

The reason CRT based TVs are 'monosync' is for cost reasons... and legacy issues. All TVs accept ONLY a 60 Hz. refresh, other rates can damage them. The reason fixed pixel displays like DLP are single res should be obvious... only so many hardware pixels.

Accepting a signal format doesn't mean it is displayed that way... all images are eventually scaled to the native res of the device since that is the only res it can produce. All else is electronic format conversion. Displays with unusual hardware res's like 1366 x 768 are continuously scaling... ones exactly equal to a standard res, like the DLPs at 1280 x 720, don't have to scale when presented that 720p signal.


You are kinda confusing me there. When you say multi-sync you mean refresh rates other than 60Hz? If so the Monivison is not unique in this regard however it is rare. You have to look for computer monitor/tvs. See also Sampo, Princeton Graphics, etc.

DLPs can also be fed sub full panel rates(720x480, 960x540, 800x600) and display them as can other RPTV digital devices like LCDs. You can even move the sub full panel picture around on the full panel on many of the devices.

CRTs are also ultimately fixed resolution devices, limited by mask or grille openings, beam spot sizes, scanning capability, and phosphor triad count or a combo of those. Each CRT has an inherently best resolution built into the set.

ss

RSawdey
03-05-2005, 07:37 PM
Monivision was the OEM for the Princeton Graphics 30" widescreen that was so famous (before they went out of business) for supporting 720p. While their 4:3 screens have a .82 pitch, I'm pretty sure the 30" & 34" widescreens have a .65 pitch. The basest models have 2 VGA inputs, but there is a tuner box that covers one & gives Component & SVideo & Composite inputs. PG used to make their own tuner box.

There have been 'presentation monitors' for tradeshows, etc, for some time... but they are pretty much narrowscreen & limited to NTSC. Max res of 800 x 600.

A multisync can support multiple H & V scanning rates as well as refresh... which means it can produce multiple resolutions. Actually produce them, not simulation or hidden scaling...

Sony's FWD900 is a beautiful widescreen multisync that supports up to 1920 x 1200 (it's 16:10) progressive at 72 Hz. Expensive, tiny, no component or copy protected inputs... it's not a good TV.

subysouth
03-06-2005, 01:09 AM
Monivision was the OEM for the Princeton Graphics 30" widescreen that was so famous (before they went out of business) for supporting 720p. While their 4:3 screens have a .82 pitch, I'm pretty sure the 30" & 34" widescreens have a .65 pitch. The basest models have 2 VGA inputs, but there is a tuner box that covers one & gives Component & SVideo & Composite inputs. PG used to make their own tuner box.

There have been 'presentation monitors' for tradeshows, etc, for some time... but they are pretty much narrowscreen & limited to NTSC. Max res of 800 x 600.

A multisync can support multiple H & V scanning rates as well as refresh... which means it can produce multiple resolutions. Actually produce them, not simulation or hidden scaling...

Sony's FWD900 is a beautiful widescreen multisync that supports up to 1920 x 1200 (it's 16:10) progressive at 72 Hz. Expensive, tiny, no component or copy protected inputs... it's not a good TV.

I am unclear on what you mean by your first line but if you mean Monivision made tubes for PG, or vice versa, you are mistaken. Neither PG nor Monivision made any of the tubes we have thus far mentioned. Monivision produces no tubes themeselves. PG did produce some smaller computer monitors IIRC. The Sampo 34" and the PG AF3.0HD both utilized Toshiba tubes. I am 99% sure the Monivisions also use Toshiba tubes but I would need to look it up.

The 30" PG AF3.0HD was produced with guidance from Joe Kane using a Toshiba professional tube with a Horizontal pitch of .63mm and a vertical of .73mm, center pitches. PG rated the actual resolution at 800x720 although the 720 is not being fully resolved but it is being scanned. If you crunch the numbers you come up with about 900x600. Horizontal pitches have the worst fall off(increase in size) on the 16:9 sets for obvious reasons.

Prior to the Sony SFP tubes, the lowest pitch(again center pitch) on the 34" sets is to be found on the Toshiba based 34" at .78-.82mm depending on who is quoting it. There AFAIK has never been a 34" CRT tube produced with a pitch in the .65mm area. Sony is now below that, most are well above that.

None of these sets mentioned are particularly easy to use TVs, I cited the Sony 900 because its the largest CRT that you could make actually resolve HD rates. The current Sony SFP tubes could fully resolve 720p, but thers no current way to make them try. None of the other CRTs we have mentioned, including the vaunted PG AF3.0HD, can fully resolve either 720p or 1080i.

A true large format HD direct view CRT is almost as mythical as a unicorn.

ss

RSawdey
03-07-2005, 08:49 PM
Monivision was the OEM for the PG AF3.0HD that Joe Kane loved so much... PG made a custom tuner box & slapped it on the Monivision monitor (with the Tosh tube).

I've seen a couple of these Monivisions & they looked really nice... I'm sure their especially nice when fully calibrated.

subysouth
03-07-2005, 10:58 PM
So youre saying that Monivision third-tiered the box to PG for the AF3.0HD? Thats news to me, but I could see it could be possible. The exterior componentry is important on a CRT but basically I view whoever makes the tube as the manufacturer.

ss

RSawdey
03-08-2005, 03:56 AM
Number of actual manufacturers of tubes continues to decline... Seems to me Tosh & Sony distribute to about a hundred companies...