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NPD Nov Sales

Cygnus
12-10-2009, 10:38 PM
Hardware
Nintendo DS: 1.70M
Wii: 1.26M
Xbox 360: 819.5K
PlayStation 3: 710.4K
PSP: 293.9K
PlayStation 2: 203.1K

Software
1. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Infinity Ward, Activision), Xbox 360 - 4.20 million
2. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Infinity Ward, Activision), PS3 - 1.87 million
3. New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Nintendo), Wii - 1.39 million
4. Assassin's Creed II (Ubisoft Montreal, Ubisoft), Xbox 360 - 794,700
5. Left 4 Dead 2 (Valve, Electronic Arts), Xbox 360 - 744,000
6. Wii Sports Resort (Nintendo), Wii - 720,200
7. Wii Fit Plus (Nintendo), Wii - 697,000
8. Assassin's Creed II (Ubisoft Montreal, Ubisoft), PS3 - 448,400
9. Dragon Age: Origins (BioWare, Electronic Arts), Xbox 360 - 362,100
10. Mario Kart Wii (Nintendo), Wii - 315,000

junehhan
12-10-2009, 11:02 PM
I can't believe that so many PS2's are still being sold.

KEEBS1984
12-10-2009, 11:39 PM
Good month. I'm impressed by the console sales. I thought for sure the PS3 would over take the 360 for November, but apparently not.

Likewise it's nice to see Dragon Age selling nicely despite the fact that it wasn't even announced as a console title until this year. I'd be curious to see what the PC sales were like...

Finally:

10. Mario Kart Wii (Nintendo), Wii - 315,000

Are there any Wii owners who don't have this game yet? For shit's sake I don't believe its gone below the top 10 since it arrived.

Pinoy
12-11-2009, 12:28 AM
You sure everything is there this time Cyg :p

Looks like the Wii craze isn't quite over yet, and pretty good numbers all around all things considered. I find it interesting that the 360 basically sold what it did November last year even with big titles like MW2 and L4D2 to help push sales.

And who the hell are these 200,000 people buying PS2's :what:

Cygnus
12-11-2009, 12:35 AM
MS' $pin...

In a statement released following this month's NPD results, Microsoft declared that November 2009 was "the company’s best-ever November for [U.S.] game sales," with $514 million in Xbox 360 game revenue.

Combined with hardware and accessory sales, which contributed an additional $324 million, the month was also deemed to be "the best November in Xbox 360 history" overall.

A significant part of that was the overperformance of Infinity Ward's Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 on Xbox 360 versus PlayStation 3, with the Xbox 360 version outselling its competitor by 2.25 to 1. This corresponds to 4.20 million units on Microsoft's console compared to 1.87 million on Sony's.

Along with games like Assassin's Creed II, Dragon Age: Origins, and Left 4 Dead II (which, with the exception of the latter, also released on PS3), Microsoft said that third-party games sold more on Xbox 360 in November than on PlayStation 3 and Wii combined.

The company also said its Xbox 360 Modern Warfare 2 Limited Edition Console "flew off store shelves," but did not break down Xbox 360 sales between that package and other available SKUs. NPD's reported sales of the game do not included bundled copies.

Finally, the company boasted that players spend more than 5.2 million hours playing Modern Warfare 2's multiplayer mode on Xbox Live during the game's first day of availability.

Cygnus
12-11-2009, 01:05 AM
You sure everything is there this time Cyg :p

What was ronald wilson reagan's, a great american, most famous quote? "Trust, but verify..." :angel

I find it interesting that the 360 basically sold what it did November last year even with big titles like MW2 and L4D2 to help push sales.

One could also spin it as despite all the PS3 excusives vs 360's "weak" line up, and massive PS3 TV ads, 360 still outsold it... :what: ;)

Pinoy
12-11-2009, 01:47 AM
What was ronald wilson reagan's, a great american, most famous quote? "Trust, but verify..." :angel

Indeed it was one of his more famously used quotes, and indeed a great American :hithere:

One could also spin it as despite all the PS3 excusives vs 360's "weak" line up, and massive PS3 TV ads, 360 still outsold it... :what: ;)

There were no PS3 excLusives released for the month of November that I recall. Not bad for Sony against a lack of exclusive titles for the month and it's competition all having cheaper SKU's in the market. And a margin of 100k in the US means that the PS3 outsold the 360 overall globally for the month, Japan's sales alone have had the ps3 outselling the 360 by 10 to 1 (40k margin) a week ;)

Either way it's a good sign that the gaming industry is healthy ATM!

kbaker2002de
12-11-2009, 08:23 AM
You sure everything is there this time Cyg :p

Looks like the Wii craze isn't quite over yet, and pretty good numbers all around all things considered. I find it interesting that the 360 basically sold what it did November last year even with big titles like MW2 and L4D2 to help push sales.

And who the hell are these 200,000 people buying PS2's :what:

Things I find amazing are as follows:

DS - This is getting to the point where everyone in the whole freaking world will have one.

Wii - Should not be considered a "craze" and I think hardcore gamers should give it more credit and enjoy the good games it has including Metroid, Zelda (possibly best game ever), Galaxy (until I finish this), NSMBW, Paper Mario and even excellent third parties including NMH, RE4, Muramasa and the potential for NMH2, Red Steel 2, Galaxy 2, there is a lot of good stuff out there for the system that I feel doesn't get enough credit. People only focus on the crap that gets released for it.

Xbox & PS3 - I was really surprised that Xbox pulled ahead

PS2 - Really 200k......

PSP - Really, 300k.......

10. Mario Kart - This game just doesn't freaking die, I mean come on

jusHD
12-11-2009, 08:44 AM
Indeed it was one of his more famously used quotes, and indeed a great American :hithere:



There were no PS3 excLusives released for the month of November that I recall. Not bad for Sony against a lack of exclusive titles for the month and it's competition all having cheaper SKU's in the market. And a margin of 100k in the US means that the PS3 outsold the 360 overall globally for the month, Japan's sales alone have had the ps3 outselling the 360 by 10 to 1 (40k margin) a week ;)

Either way it's a good sign that the gaming industry is healthy ATM!


Its cyg reporting if its not M$ positive it doesnt get posted or it gets edited. I would love to see how many of those 360's are replacements. We have people here on this site that have went thru 9 360's. A lot of people out of warranty and you know a shit load of people's 360 broke upon putting MW2 in so they buy another one. With a 50% failure rate we could probably half those numbers. I guess it doesnt matter though M$ is loving this shit. Make shitty programs and console's and everyone will still buy it. I wonder if someone over at M$ is making the decision to make NATAL that shitty also since they know now no matter how shitty it is people will buy it and if it breaks consistently people will have to buy more. Hell maybe this time there wont be a lawsuit and they wont have to offer a warranty and they will really rake it in.

But just like baseball stats you cant look at 360 sales anymore because of the poor suckers out of warranty buying there console again. But the sales for MW2 are amazing. Its sad that the 360 is great and could have been amazing if not for being louder (fixed if you load your games to the system) than a jet and now being the most faulty piece of equipment ever sold to the public. Its sadder that companies are now looking at this and quality is going to drop. We bitch about unfinished buggy games being released but what do you expect these developers to do when they easily see that gamers are easily fucked over and will just take it.

Aside from bullshit though this has been a great gaming year.

KEEBS1984
12-11-2009, 10:50 AM
Its cyg reporting if its not M$ positive it doesnt get posted or it gets edited. I would love to see how many of those 360's are replacements.

Ahh that argument.... if you have to kill it once you have to kill it again and again and again. It's like a cockroach.

Let's say there was an inflated amount of 360s being sold to people whose old 360s broke. Would the 360 still be pulling so far ahead of the PS3 in multiplatform titles? Do you understand how easily your logic can break down when you measure it like this?

How many 360 replacements is enough to falsify the monthly reports? 1 million, 3 million, 5 million?

At 1 million total you have roughly 3% of the total amount of 360s as being replaced... I'd wager the same percentage can probably be used for the PS3 since it's so low.

At 3 million you have roughly 8% of the total amount of 360s. This would bring it down a bit closer to the PS3 in total units sold, but not by much. Likewise, at 8% that would mean just 65000 of this months current units would be negated still putting the 360 in the lead.

At 5 million you would have roughly 15% of all 360s are replacements. This actually puts the console very close to the PS3 in total numbers, but if that were the case then why would the 360 continually outsell the PS3 by such a large margin on every multiplatform game released outside of Japan (where the 360 has such low numbers)? Were the two consoles locked in, neck and neck, at 30 million each we would not be seeing a figure like 4.2 million MW2s vs. 1.9 million MW2s... statistically it's impossible, in reality it's highly improbable.

Of course, let's flip this argument around a little bit:

I would love to see how many of those PS3 sales are just Slim replacements for the old Phat model.
:lol:

junehhan
12-11-2009, 11:01 AM
MS' $pin...

In a statement released following this month's NPD results, Microsoft declared that November 2009 was "the company’s best-ever November for [U.S.] game sales," with $514 million in Xbox 360 game revenue.

Combined with hardware and accessory sales, which contributed an additional $324 million, the month was also deemed to be "the best November in Xbox 360 history" overall.

A significant part of that was the overperformance of Infinity Ward's Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 on Xbox 360 versus PlayStation 3, with the Xbox 360 version outselling its competitor by 2.25 to 1. This corresponds to 4.20 million units on Microsoft's console compared to 1.87 million on Sony's.

Along with games like Assassin's Creed II, Dragon Age: Origins, and Left 4 Dead II (which, with the exception of the latter, also released on PS3), Microsoft said that third-party games sold more on Xbox 360 in November than on PlayStation 3 and Wii combined.

The company also said its Xbox 360 Modern Warfare 2 Limited Edition Console "flew off store shelves," but did not break down Xbox 360 sales between that package and other available SKUs. NPD's reported sales of the game do not included bundled copies.

Finally, the company boasted that players spend more than 5.2 million hours playing Modern Warfare 2's multiplayer mode on Xbox Live during the game's first day of availability.


I wonder about the MW2 Elite X360 bundle as too many of them couldn't have been sold since I see them piled up at nearly every store i've been to. They are still in stock on Amazon, Best Buy had them piled up when I went a few days ago to pick up some more Monster Cables(:P), the EB I stoped by last week had them piled up inside the locked display case, and my friend said that Target had a bunch of them.

jusHD
12-11-2009, 11:20 AM
Ahh that argument.... if you have to kill it once you have to kill it again and again and again. It's like a cockroach.

Let's say there was an inflated amount of 360s being sold to people whose old 360s broke. Would the 360 still be pulling so far ahead of the PS3 in multiplatform titles? Do you understand how easily your logic can break down when you measure it like this?

How many 360 replacements is enough to falsify the monthly reports? 1 million, 3 million, 5 million?

At 1 million total you have roughly 3% of the total amount of 360s as being replaced... I'd wager the same percentage can probably be used for the PS3 since it's so low.

At 3 million you have roughly 8% of the total amount of 360s. This would bring it down a bit closer to the PS3 in total units sold, but not by much. Likewise, at 8% that would mean just 65000 of this months current units would be negated still putting the 360 in the lead.

At 5 million you would have roughly 15% of all 360s are replacements. This actually puts the console very close to the PS3 in total numbers, but if that were the case then why would the 360 continually outsell the PS3 by such a large margin on every multiplatform game released outside of Japan (where the 360 has such low numbers)? Were the two consoles locked in, neck and neck, at 30 million each we would not be seeing a figure like 4.2 million MW2s vs. 1.9 million MW2s... statistically it's impossible, in reality it's highly improbable.

Of course, let's flip this argument around a little bit:

I would love to see how many of those PS3 sales are just Slim replacements for the old Phat model.
:lol:

Thats why I said the sales numbers for MW2 were amazing. Not trying to imply the PS3 is winning I just wish we could see the actual numbers for the 360. We will never know the true numbers but with 57% failure rate it has to factor in. Plus look at some people here went and bought new ones instead of constantly sending in for repairs. I loved the 360 when it works but damn it sucks to have something cost so much then breaks so easily. I know I probably look like the #1 PS3 fanboy here but that would not be the case if not for the 360 being shit. If I wasnt worried about my warranty expiring I probably wouldnt have a PS3. I guess i am the only one that cares but I will not support a company that makes such a piece of shit and never fix it since its still going on. Like I said people supporting these fucks dont complain if next gen this shit happens again and also dont complain about unfinished games being released. If the console company can pull this shit whats to stop anyone else.

Cygnus
12-11-2009, 11:31 AM
heh.. jusHD posts are hilarious :lol:

jusHD
12-11-2009, 11:51 AM
heh.. jusHD posts are hilarious :lol:

My post arent edited so that may be why it looks funny to you. And whats funny do i not make valid points? Do I bash the 360 aside from it breaking? If I am offending you look at the part were I say the 360 is great and if not for breaking I would still have just a 360. Any other product and this shit wouldnt stand.

Cygnus
12-11-2009, 12:14 PM
No, your posts are not offensive at all. They are amusing. You sound so grumpy with your lang, e.g. you wrote a variant of “shit” six times in one post. That has to be a record :D Tis all fun and games...rite? ;)

My post arent edited so that may be why it looks funny to you. And whats funny do i not make valid points? Do I bash the 360 aside from it breaking? If I am offending you look at the part were I say the 360 is great and if not for breaking I would still have just a 360. Any other product and this shit wouldnt stand.

II SAL II
12-11-2009, 12:20 PM
this is one amazing thing right here:

1. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Infinity Ward, Activision), Xbox 360 - 4.20 million
2. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Infinity Ward, Activision), PS3 - 1.87 million

thats more than double !!!! we arent talking about some middle tier game here we are talking about the most anticipated game of this year and the PS3 didnt even break 2 million?

i think it just goes to show how much the PS3 software sales depend on its Japanees sales becasue that is just down right sickining (im sure there haven't been multiple copies of the CODMW2 sold becasue they broke in the Xbox360.)

Wii is stealing peoples money like Enron !!!

MikeRox
12-11-2009, 01:15 PM
Good month. I'm impressed by the console sales. I thought for sure the PS3 would over take the 360 for November, but apparently not.

Likewise it's nice to see Dragon Age selling nicely despite the fact that it wasn't even announced as a console title until this year. I'd be curious to see what the PC sales were like...

Finally:

10. Mario Kart Wii (Nintendo), Wii - 315,000

Are there any Wii owners who don't have this game yet? For shit's sake I don't believe its gone below the top 10 since it arrived.

Surely this month alone there are another 900.000 people left to buy Mario Kart :p

Great month all around. 360 cementing itself as FPS system to own. Clearly the PS3 userbase is being a bit split by so many games atm.

Will be interesting to see if Reggie can pull off his claim that New Super Mario Bros Wii will outsell the best selling single format version of Modern Warfare 2, It'll be chasing the 3 million units or so to catch up to the 360 ver? :lol: I have to say I don't see that happening by January, though I can see it's total install being better in its lifetime. Can see it managing it worldwide by January though, I think NSMB Wii shifted 500,000 units more than Modern Warfare 2 in Japan.

MikeRox
12-11-2009, 01:17 PM
this is one amazing thing right here:

1. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Infinity Ward, Activision), Xbox 360 - 4.20 million
2. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Infinity Ward, Activision), PS3 - 1.87 million

thats more than double !!!! we arent talking about some middle tier game here we are talking about the most anticipated game of this year and the PS3 didnt even break 2 million?

i think it just goes to show how much the PS3 software sales depend on its Japanees sales becasue that is just down right sickining (im sure there haven't been multiple copies of the CODMW2 sold becasue they broke in the Xbox360.)

Wii is stealing peoples money like Enron !!!

The PS3 has had a bigger plate of must have games than the 360 this year. That gives a more split userbase on top of having a userbase that is half the size of the 360s in the US. I'd wager multi format owners also went with the 360 ver of MW2 what with the 360 being the FPS machine ;)

jusHD
12-11-2009, 01:27 PM
No, your posts are not offensive at all. They are amusing. You sound so grumpy with your lang, e.g. you wrote a variant of “shit” six times in one post. That has to be a record :D Tis all fun and games...rite? ;)

Yeah I am a grumpy bastard. And as far as saying shit I work in the oil field there are no rules out here. All I hear is cussing day in and day out if you heard me talk that would trip you out. I have to constanly edit my post to remove a majority of the bad words. Not proud of it just been around it all my life and my first words were cuss words so my bad.

Anyways the numbers for MW2 get me grumpy because I dont have my 360 anymore:crying:. I need some people like sorro to kick ass with and eck to laugh with. But soon hopefully I will add to those 360 numbers come income tax time.

Mase
12-11-2009, 01:27 PM
Thats just a lot of sales from everyone, I am in awe of the Wii, but for its new price and the software thats out for it, it makes sense..

I dont think anyone could have predicted the 360 outselling the PS3 here in the US, let alone trump it MW2 sales. Damn near 2.25x the amount of sales is unexpected even for the most staunch PS3/360 supporters.

Mase
12-11-2009, 01:30 PM
The PS3 has had a bigger plate of must have games than the 360 this year. That gives a more split userbase on top of having a userbase that is half the size of the 360s in the US. I'd wager multi format owners also went with the 360 ver of MW2 what with the 360 being the FPS machine ;)

Soo your saying the PS3 userbase does not buy a lot of games?

Because the other major multi plats last month were all in favor of the 360 and they were not all shooters...

II SAL II
12-11-2009, 01:42 PM
The PS3 has had a bigger plate of must have games than the 360 this year.

we arent talking about a middle tier game here. we are talking about the most popular online shooter on all consoles. what was more important on the PS3 that would have taken away sales from the COD Franchise?

I would agree with you on the multi consoles users buying in on the Xbox360 over the PS3 becasue most of the multi console users have a PS3 as a stand alone Blu-Ray player not a gaming system but the side by side software sales from this are pretty crazy and overwhelmingly in the favor of M$ which im sure no one thought it would be this out of balance. really did you expect this?

anyone have the side by side for Assassins Creed II yet?

Cygnus
12-11-2009, 01:48 PM
Clearly the PS3 userbase is being a bit split by so many games atm.

Excuses..excuses :what:;)

Pinoy
12-11-2009, 02:39 PM
Soo your saying the PS3 userbase does not buy a lot of games?

Because the other major multi plats last month were all in favor of the 360 and they were not all shooters...

I wouldn't say that. I'd be more inclined to say that the 360 crowd buys a shitload of games and it's attach rate is quite extraordinary in the gaming business.

Traditionally PS games and franchises have never sold like crazy at or around launch like we see CoD and Halo doing on the 360. Even the biggest PS titles tended to sell more over time than all at once near launch.

II SAL II
12-11-2009, 02:55 PM
in this day and age Pinoy that will cause game developers to shut there doors because they need to reinvest there sales back into other game titles that are being made or make a profit now on there product. FASA and Pendemic is a great example of this.

Cygnus
12-11-2009, 03:26 PM
You have a point. I read in an article that most games (excluding franchises) do most of their sales within the first few weeks of release.

in this day and age Pinoy that will cause game developers to shut there doors because they need to reinvest there sales back into other game titles that are being made or make a profit now on there product. FASA and Pendemic is a great example of this.

Pinoy
12-11-2009, 03:35 PM
in this day and age Pinoy that will cause game developers to shut there doors because they need to reinvest there sales back into other game titles that are being made or make a profit now on there product. FASA and Pendemic is a great example of this.

Unfortunately true especially for smaller third party developers. However that's how the biz is and has been.

Pinoy
12-11-2009, 04:06 PM
Now for the Sony Spin ;)

In November, PS3 was the only hardware console to see any growth when compared to last November, experiencing an 88% lift and a 122% increase from the previous month.

Metacritic also unveiled this week its 2009 Game Platform Power Rankings, in which PS3 titles topped the charts on overall game quality, tallying up five of the top ten best reviewed games in 2009 and with Uncharted 2: Among Thieves taking best reviewed game of the year.

Yes, all words are there and accounted for :angel :lol:

Pinoy
12-11-2009, 04:31 PM
Ahh that argument.... if you have to kill it once you have to kill it again and again and again. It's like a cockroach.


Normally I would discount the 'replacement' theory as being overblown as you have stated... but let's not forget there was a recent 1,000,000+ 360 console ban so very recently. I imagine a good number of those sales for Nov were indeed replacements for banned consoles.



this is one amazing thing right here:

1. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Infinity Ward, Activision), Xbox 360 - 4.20 million
2. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Infinity Ward, Activision), PS3 - 1.87 million

thats more than double !!!! we arent talking about some middle tier game here we are talking about the most anticipated game of this year and the PS3 didnt even break 2 million?

i think it just goes to show how much the PS3 software sales depend on its Japanees sales becasue that is just down right sickining (im sure there haven't been multiple copies of the CODMW2 sold becasue they broke in the Xbox360.)


I was thinking about this and realized something:

NPD says the 360 has sold 17,318,100 and PS3 has sold 9,764,600. So if we account for the total userbase in America against how many sold...

MW2(360) 4.20M = 24.3% of Xbox 360 userbase
MW2(PS3) 1.87M = 19.2% of PS3 userbase

^ A lot closer than one would think.

Same thing for Assassins Creed 2

ACII(360) 794.7K = 4.6% of Xbox 360 userbase
ACII(PS3) 448.4K = 4.6% of PS3 userbase



^ hmmmm :2cents



(BTW sorry for the triple post, I got my hands full fixing two laptops, keeping my kid occupied, making cookies, and posting all at once :helpme )

venomxr8
12-11-2009, 09:43 PM
So World Wide the ps3 outsold the 360 in November. Nice:cool:

PFC5
12-12-2009, 12:06 AM
If they sold under 2mill of MW2 on the PS3 how come there are well over 2mil scores on the leader boards for MW2?

All I can say about 6mill MW2 games sold in one month is WOW!!!!!!! That is over 1/3 of a Billion $$ is sales for ONE game. :eek:

KEEBS1984
12-12-2009, 12:55 AM
Normally I would discount the 'replacement' theory as being overblown as you have stated... but let's not forget there was a recent 1,000,000+ 360 console ban so very recently. I imagine a good number of those sales for Nov were indeed replacements for banned consoles.


Except Microsoft has said that they real number of consoles banned was nowhere near that "reported" number from "unnamed sources." :rolleyes:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3177039

And again... I'd be curious to know how many of those PS3 sales were people upgrading from the PS3 Phat. And if you believe that idea is completely ridiculous allow me to introduce you to the swaths of people who upgraded from the DS Phat to the DS Lite/DSi and from the PSP 1000 to the 2000/3000...

Pinoy
12-12-2009, 02:32 AM
Except Microsoft has said that they real number of consoles banned was nowhere near that "reported" number from "unnamed sources." :rolleyes:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3177039


Arguably the MS XBL manager said "it wasn't a million". That could be be one million and 1 or could be 999,999. Either way people getting the banhammer from XBL was no joke, go to any and every busy gaming forum and you'll find plenty of evidence of a mass banning. Go take a peek around your neighborhood, craigslist, and ebay and see how many recently banned consoles are up for sale. I've already had the chance to buy 4.


And again... I'd be curious to know how many of those PS3 sales were people upgrading from the PS3 Phat. And if you believe that idea is completely ridiculous allow me to introduce you to the swaths of people who upgraded from the DS Phat to the DS Lite/DSi and from the PSP 1000 to the 2000/3000...Dunno, it's plausible, but buying a new version of an item is different from having to replace an old version. I don't think that people who's 360's were banned from XBL are running out to buy a ps3 to replace it, doesn't make sense when they already have so much invested in the 360.

pearl-drum-man
12-12-2009, 05:18 AM
Its cyg reporting if its not M$ positive it doesnt get posted or it gets edited. I would love to see how many of those 360's are replacements. We have people here on this site that have went thru 9 360's. A lot of people out of warranty and you know a shit load of people's 360 broke upon putting MW2 in so they buy another one. With a 50% failure rate we could probably half those numbers. I guess it doesnt matter though M$ is loving this shit. Make shitty programs and console's and everyone will still buy it. I wonder if someone over at M$ is making the decision to make NATAL that shitty also since they know now no matter how shitty it is people will buy it and if it breaks consistently people will have to buy more. Hell maybe this time there wont be a lawsuit and they wont have to offer a warranty and they will really rake it in.

But just like baseball stats you cant look at 360 sales anymore because of the poor suckers out of warranty buying there console again. But the sales for MW2 are amazing. Its sad that the 360 is great and could have been amazing if not for being louder (fixed if you load your games to the system) than a jet and now being the most faulty piece of equipment ever sold to the public. Its sadder that companies are now looking at this and quality is going to drop. We bitch about unfinished buggy games being released but what do you expect these developers to do when they easily see that gamers are easily fucked over and will just take it.

Aside from bullshit though this has been a great gaming year.


Well, my brother was a recent buyer of a new 360 because his replacement RRoD'd again and he didn't want to pay the $90 (or whatever) MS told him it would cost and wait a couple weeks for the repair. However, my buddy was one of the people that had his 60gig PS3 bricked (for games) by the recent update, and he just went out and bought a Slim, still uses his original PS3 for movies. I guess they cancel each other out.

I do agree with your point though, the MS numbers are probably skewed somewhat, we will never know by how much though.

railven
12-12-2009, 08:03 AM
I still don't own a PSP Go or a PS3 Slim. I do, however, own a 360 MW2 LE.

I'd agree with Pinoy, there is a difference from upgrading and re-buying something that is broken. In November, I bought a 360 cuz it was LE, and two friends bout new 360s cuz they got banned (I bought one of those modded 360s and guess what - it fucking RRoD haha. I swear Microsoft's 360 console hates me, thank god Windows 7 has been stable as a rock.)

Also note, if you have a 360 that is banned from XBL it's warranty is automatically voided. So...I got a brick with a chip. Yummers!!! I hate my life.

Anyways, if anyone still needs a 360 buy the MW2 LE before it sells out. 2 Controllers, 250GB HDD, MW2 game, and a kick ass finish. THE first 360 LE I recommend for everyone!!!

My RRoD count is in th double digits, I stopped counting. Broken disc drives over 5, and 2 E-74s. My luck has really, really, been shitty with this console. Maybe that explains my bitterness towards the hardware.

Mase
12-12-2009, 10:36 AM
If they sold under 2mill of MW2 on the PS3 how come there are well over 2mil scores on the leader boards for MW2?


These are sales for the month of November, we are almost halfway through December, so it is possible that more people have bought the game and logged some time..

Arguably the MS XBL manager said "it wasn't a million". That could be be one million and 1 or could be 999,999. Either way people getting the banhammer from XBL was no joke, go to any and every busy gaming forum and you'll find plenty of evidence of a mass banning. Go take a peek around your neighborhood, craigslist, and ebay and see how many recently banned consoles are up for sale. I've already had the chance to buy 4.


Your first part is semantics, soo I know a lot of people who own a PS3 and use it only for BRs. In fact you can go to any HD forum and see hundreds of people who use it for only movies. I can not extrapolate any viable figures with just this view point, so for me to say. People only buy a PS3 for its BR/media abilities based upon my readings and experience, would be ludicrous.

KEEBS1984
12-12-2009, 10:47 AM
Arguably the MS XBL manager said "it wasn't a million". That could be be one million and 1 or could be 999,999. Either way people getting the banhammer from XBL was no joke, go to any and every busy gaming forum and you'll find plenty of evidence of a mass banning. Go take a peek around your neighborhood, craigslist, and ebay and see how many recently banned consoles are up for sale. I've already had the chance to buy 4.

Ahh trying the "Then it must've been 999,999!!!!1" argument then. I see... good luck with that.


Dunno, it's plausible, but buying a new version of an item is different from having to replace an old version. I don't think that people who's 360's were banned from XBL are running out to buy a ps3 to replace it, doesn't make sense when they already have so much invested in the 360.

In the context of this argument it is the same. Two different people are replacing their older consoles with newer ones. If you are arguing on behalf of the total userbase and are trying to justify that a few of the XBox sales should not be added into the total amount for the sake of people rebuying due to bricked/banned consoles then the same logic would apply to people who are upgrading from the PS3 Phat to the PS3 Slim... they aren't new users and therefor shouldn't be added.

By your own logic this has to be correct.

Pinoy
12-12-2009, 03:03 PM
Your first part is semantics, soo I know a lot of people who own a PS3 and use it only for BRs. In fact you can go to any HD forum and see hundreds of people who use it for only movies. I can not extrapolate any viable figures with just this view point, so for me to say. People only buy a PS3 for its BR/media abilities based upon my readings and experience, would be ludicrous.
You'd have a point if I was saying that MS sold 800k 360's only as replacements for banned consoles... which isn't what I'm suggesting.
Ahh trying the "Then it must've been 999,999!!!!1" argument then. I see... good luck with that.

Could have been 2,000,000 or 10,000 for all we know:what:
First reports said from 600,000 to 1,000,000. For the sake of speculation let's say it's only one tenth, 100,000... how many of those supposed 100k people with banned consoles would buy a new one? 10k? 20k? 50k?
How many gamers do you know that wouldn't replace their console?
Even if console bannings spurred only a few thousand in sales it's noteworthy.

Or are you trying to suggest that a mass console banning did not happen? The official 360 forums and the rest of the internet disagrees with that.

In the context of this argument it is the same. Two different people are replacing their older consoles with newer ones.
Replacing something that is broke/unusable compared to replacing something that still works is the same :huh
If you are arguing on behalf of the total userbase and are trying to justify that a few of the XBox sales should not be added into the total amount for the sake of people rebuying due to bricked/banned consoles then
Not saying that at all, I'm not trying to get somebody to divide up sales by by categories :lol:
All I'm saying is that undoubtedly due to so many consoles being banned at once it had to have some impact on sales. Period.
the same logic would apply to people who are upgrading from the PS3 Phat to the PS3 Slim... they aren't new users and therefor shouldn't be added.
I never said that those sales shouldn't be added (on either side)
That would be as retarded as saying that 6 of Railvens 360's should be removed from the sales count.
By your own logic this has to be correct.

-_-

MikeRox
12-12-2009, 06:51 PM
Excuses..excuses :what:;)

excuses for what? I'm not justifying anything, merely reading into sales for platforms of which I have no investment in at all aside from having purchased and gaining enjoyment from all of them. I'm not on a specific formats payroll as you appear to be? :confused:

I just don't see what there is to trumpet about over the 360s software sales of Modern Warfare 2 vs the PS3s. It sits in line with exactly what you'd expect. The only thing that would have surprised me with MW2 sales, would have been the PS3 ver coming close to or even outselling the 360.

Btw, I contributed to the UK 360s sales of Borderlands ;) I'm such a PS3 fanboy obviously :D

I think you're just too blind to acknowledge how many factors there are in sales. Personally if I was interested in MW2, I'd buy it on 360 not on PS3 despite owning both. Does that make me a 360 fanboy? :p

scsa
12-12-2009, 10:54 PM
Pinoy if Keebs says that it didn't happen he is crazy I am a victim of it but unlike some I decided to give away my modded one to a friend for free and not buy a new one I say if they want to screw the customer into making more money from them by making you buy a new system why do it. So instead i decided to buy 3 new PS3 games instead and sell my Gears 2 and a few games I actually bought for the 360 to buy the ps3 games. That is what everyone should do who got banned. Its ripping off half the people that bought the product and saying guess what you have to go out and spend your hard earned money to buy another of the same product we just screwed up for you. Also I think its Microsoft's own damn fault for making it easy as hell to mod the system to steal games I mean look at the Ps3 they don't have anyone modding the system and getting free games at all. I mean if Microsoft was smart they would have decided to lose the extra year they had and made a good system unlike the 360 is now a system that breaks down half the time and a system that is easily modded.

Also you guys notice how this thread wasn't made for October when the ps3 won against the 360 yet he made it this month only since the ps3 lost only by 100,000. Nice one Cyg. At least you didn't leave out any words this time. Fair and honest right.

PFC5
12-13-2009, 12:05 AM
Ahh trying the "Then it must've been 999,999!!!!1" argument then. I see... good luck with that.




In the context of this argument it is the same. Two different people are replacing their older consoles with newer ones. If you are arguing on behalf of the total userbase and are trying to justify that a few of the XBox sales should not be added into the total amount for the sake of people rebuying due to bricked/banned consoles then the same logic would apply to people who are upgrading from the PS3 Phat to the PS3 Slim... they aren't new users and therefor shouldn't be added.

By your own logic this has to be correct.

Sorry. Erroneous logic.

Someone upgrading (if you want to call it that for a machine with LESS features) from a phat PS3 to a slim PS3 still means if the resell the phat model you NOW have TWO users who could buy games or watch movies and expand the user base. The the RRoD 360s you just have junk period! Add in all the people who get ripped off because they buy a used banned 360 not even knowing they can NEVER use it online (which is half the fun or more), then you still have JUNK! Period.

Something with limited (no online use) uses originally designed for (banned 360) is still crap IMO, and something that doesn't work at all because of RRoD is still called crap also. It is just how high the crap is piled on the purchase IMO. Have you gamers actually really though about this logically? How many times would you keep buying a Samsung LCD IF it broke as often as the 360s do? Or would you buy the alternative? ;)

I am sorry but if I bought something and had as many as double digit failures as we often hear about on the 360 I would NOT keep buying it. That would be just plain stupid IMO, and MS must be loving it and have ZERO incentive to not continue with this type of junk hardware mfg because there are so many suckers rebuying the console AND padding their sales numbers and user base numbers with the crappy hardware. Where are people being outraged and refusing to rebuy something that is junk?

You can likely expect the only lesson MS has learned with the RRoD fiasco is that gamers are suckers ripe for the plucking of ANY money they get their hands on.

My :2cents

scsa
12-13-2009, 12:13 AM
1000 percent agree PFC. I mean the thing that I hate about the whole banning crap is that they made the system like that I mean didn't learn from other systems and from the computer age we are in that privacy is something is going to happen with every thing evidently and why make it easier for someone to do it on your system I mean they made it so easy for anyone to mod the dvd drive its crazy yet then they make you the customer buy a whole new system to enjoy something like xbox live even when you bought the year subscription itself.

PFC5
12-13-2009, 12:18 AM
Sorry I don't agree with modding for an unfair advantage, but charging 3x the money for accessories and banning those that do to save money is an entirely different thing that makes me NEVER want to buy a 360. It just seems dumb for ANYONE to not say FU to MS for that alone never mind the banning and RRoD issues that appears even more prevalent than I thought it was originally. Again WHO would be dumb enough to keep buying the same brand of HDTV repeatedly after they kept buying units that died? At most it only takes twice for me to purge from consideration buying a given mfg products, and usually only once.

scsa
12-13-2009, 12:25 AM
I agree PFC I never really used it for modding I just had it modded incase I bought about 10-15 games in my time for the 360 most of the best ones I bought but to have a modded system be banned like mine was is crap I mean if I wasn't using a modded game why ban it. I mean its telling everyone who wants to open up things to not open them up. We all bought our systems it should be up us all what we want to do with the systems once we bought them. I mean its like MS is telling us that if you don't play by our rules you will be banned and have to buy a whole new system for no reason just because we say so. Its crap thank god Sony and ps3 don't make you do that crap.

PFC5
12-13-2009, 12:59 AM
Modding to play/use pirated games gets a deserved ban and there should be criminal charges filed IMO. Would you work for nothing? Buying/using priated games IS stealing. Even if you modded to "possibly" be able to do it that is WRONG period!

But banning because someone used a memory card that was not "official" since the official one costs 3x the money is not the same thing. Ditto for HDD as well.

KEEBS1984
12-13-2009, 12:59 AM
Sorry. Erroneous logic.

Someone upgrading (if you want to call it that for a machine with LESS features) from a phat PS3 to a slim PS3 still means if the resell the phat model you NOW have TWO users who could buy games or watch movies and expand the user base. The the RRoD 360s you just have junk period! Add in all the people who get ripped off because they buy a used banned 360 not even knowing they can NEVER use it online (which is half the fun or more), then you still have JUNK! Period.

Something with limited (no online use) uses originally designed for (banned 360) is still crap IMO, and something that doesn't work at all because of RRoD is still called crap also. It is just how high the crap is piled on the purchase IMO. Have you gamers actually really though about this logically? How many times would you keep buying a Samsung LCD IF it broke as often as the 360s do? Or would you buy the alternative? ;)

I am sorry but if I bought something and had as many as double digit failures as we often hear about on the 360 I would NOT keep buying it. That would be just plain stupid IMO, and MS must be loving it and have ZERO incentive to not continue with this type of junk hardware mfg because there are so many suckers rebuying the console AND padding their sales numbers and user base numbers with the crappy hardware. Where are people being outraged and refusing to rebuy something that is junk?

You can likely expect the only lesson MS has learned with the RRoD fiasco is that gamers are suckers ripe for the plucking of ANY money they get their hands on.

My :2cents

It's not erroneous logic at all, actually. I wasn't basing my argument on the validity of Microsoft's console or whether or not the banning's were "right" or not. This argument had nothing to do with the morals behind the company.

Pinoy made mention that he would be curious to know how many of those consoles sold in November were replacements because of the bannings, assuming he was implying that maybe some shouldn't count (I know he didn't actually say this, calm down Pinoy. :p).

My logic was that if you use that argument against the 360 then the same can be used against the PS3 for people upgrading from the Phat to the Slim. Somebody who upgrades is not increasing the userbase, just like somebody replacing a console isn't increasing the userbase.

That was what the argument was about. If you want to turn this into, yet another, Microsoft sucks rally then by all means go ahead... any argument I have against that will be shut out as it's been said time and time and time again.

Oh and FYI... no console was banned for using an unauthorized memory card (those cards were just made un-usable, which I agree was a stupid shitty this for MS to do). The consoles that were banned were ones that had an illegal modding chip installed inside that allowed for the pirated games. Supposedly an "unnamed source" said a million consoles were banned, a figure that Microsoft has denied.

jusHD
12-13-2009, 01:04 AM
Finally people agree on this shit. The 360 had the potential to be the best system ever but this is bullshit. M$ took shortcuts to jump in front of sony and it is the gamers they fucked to do it. Easily broken and modded systems basically mass produced shit to earn its spot. It payed off it seems though since a lot of people will continue to support this and buy new systems. Shit me myself am torn since I want a new one but I sold my old one for being out of warranty so now have to go buy a new one so M$ shafts me into buying multiple systems which I have never had to do with the NES, PS1, N64, PS2, PS3, GC, Wii, PSP, DS, or gameboy.

scsa
12-13-2009, 01:17 AM
Um not true at all Keebs mine doesn't have a mod chip in it at all it was modded by something I did to the drive.

PFC5
12-13-2009, 02:01 AM
It's not erroneous logic at all, actually. I wasn't basing my argument on the validity of Microsoft's console or whether or not the banning's were "right" or not. This argument had nothing to do with the morals behind the company.

Pinoy made mention that he would be curious to know how many of those consoles sold in November were replacements because of the bannings, assuming he was implying that maybe some shouldn't count (I know he didn't actually say this, calm down Pinoy. :p).

My logic was that if you use that argument against the 360 then the same can be used against the PS3 for people upgrading from the Phat to the Slim. Somebody who upgrades is not increasing the userbase, just like somebody replacing a console isn't increasing the userbase.

That was what the argument was about. If you want to turn this into, yet another, Microsoft sucks rally then by all means go ahead... any argument I have against that will be shut out as it's been said time and time and time again.

Oh and FYI... no console was banned for using an unauthorized memory card (those cards were just made un-usable, which I agree was a stupid shitty this for MS to do). The consoles that were banned were ones that had an illegal modding chip installed inside that allowed for the pirated games. Supposedly an "unnamed source" said a million consoles were banned, a figure that Microsoft has denied.

I understood exactly what you are arguing/debating. It is faulty logic because those who upgrade from the Phat PS3 to the slim PS3 are doing something with that functioning phat PS3 aren't they? Most are not sticking them in a closet or throwing them in the trash. They are likely selling them to someone else who becomes a new user.

However, those who had to buy a new 360 because of the RRod have an old BROKEN console that no one "new" would buy (unless they are dumb IMO), so I agree that those RRod 360s will NOT add to the user base, but ARE adding to the stats for units sold, while those who sell or give away the phat PS3 (that still works which IS the key to the difference ;)) to upgrade to the slim model ARE increasing the user base. See the difference? ;)

Pinoy
12-13-2009, 03:05 AM
Modding to play/use pirated games gets a deserved ban and there should be criminal charges filed IMO. Would you work for nothing? Buying/using priated games IS stealing.
Well... technically piracy is not stealing, but I digress before I accidentally start another huge argument :lol:

Pinoy made mention that he would be curious to know how many of those consoles sold in November were replacements because of the bannings, assuming he was implying that maybe some shouldn't count (I know he didn't actually say this, calm down Pinoy. :p). Hey, I'm not mad bro. I just wanted to make sure you understood what I was getting at is all.

Oh and FYI... no console was banned for using an unauthorized memory card (those cards were just made un-usable, which I agree was a stupid shitty this for MS to do). The consoles that were banned were ones that had an illegal modding chip installed inside that allowed for the pirated games.
And the ones with flashed disc drives and no mod chip (though these are seriously few and far between, they are the ones I feel worst for in the whole deal)
Supposedly an "unnamed source" said a million consoles were banned, a figure that Microsoft has denied.

Of course they denied it, and no they'll never say just exactly how many were banned... just like they'll never tell exactly how many RRoD'd 360's there are.
Think of it this way: MS never denied a "mass console ban", draw your own conclusions from there ;)

KEEBS1984
12-13-2009, 11:05 AM
I understood exactly what you are arguing/debating. It is faulty logic because those who upgrade from the Phat PS3 to the slim PS3 are doing something with that functioning phat PS3 aren't they? Most are not sticking them in a closet or throwing them in the trash. They are likely selling them to someone else who becomes a new user.

However, those who had to buy a new 360 because of the RRod have an old BROKEN console that no one "new" would buy (unless they are dumb IMO), so I agree that those RRod 360s will NOT add to the user base, but ARE adding to the stats for units sold, while those who sell or give away the phat PS3 (that still works which IS the key to the difference ;)) to upgrade to the slim model ARE increasing the user base. See the difference? ;)

Well then the same can be said to the 360. Every 360 that RRoDs (or the majority of them anyways) gets fixed. It may take a while but Microsoft has given a 3 year warranty to those systems. Are you saying they just let them sit there and die? Not even bothering to send it out? That's not sound logic...

Chances are that if somebody does buy a new one it's so they can play again right away while their 360 is being serviced, which, once back, would probably be sold as well.

Now tell me... how does this same argument not apply to the 360?

KEEBS1984
12-13-2009, 11:13 AM
Of course they denied it, and no they'll never say just exactly how many were banned... just like they'll never tell exactly how many RRoD'd 360's there are.
Think of it this way: MS never denied a "mass console ban", draw your own conclusions from there ;)

I have no doubt the ban was massive. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna feel any remorse for somebody's banned console. More than likely something was wrong with the system. If it was an honest mistake and somebody's console got banned without actually "stealing" anything then they should be compensated... absolutely.

But for the people who were knowingly hacking their system and playing pirated games... sucks to be you. I honestly couldn't care less. Just like I don't care when the same stuff happens to the PSP and Wii... don't play pirated games if you want to play online. It's as simple as that.

I'm not sure if the same thing has happened to the PS3 yet or not, but I'm sure people are hacking and pirating games on the system. When they get banned I'll have the exact same disposition.

railven
12-13-2009, 11:20 AM
Haha, watching from the side lines is fun!

Just note, there are over 1yrs worth of 360s out of RRoD warranty, and at this point depending on the issue, it might be worth it more to just buy an acarde versus paying MS to fix your console.

And, some people get lucky with their system still fixed out of the 3 year period for free, and some aren't. It is luck of the draw it seems.

It still runs you around $120 (shipping, taxes, hardware, and labor) to replace the disc drive. With only a 30 day warranty. Get piece of mind, drop the extra $80, sell the controller and memory card on the arcade and get your 3yr RRoD warranty back.

railven
12-13-2009, 11:24 AM
I'm not sure if the same thing has happened to the PS3 yet or not, but I'm sure people are hacking and pirating games on the system. When they get banned I'll have the exact same disposition.

Hacking the system, yes, pirated games, not yet.

Sony did a good job cutting the balls off the PS3 in terms of a good emulation system. With no access to the RSX and its memory, the system is handicapped at emulating anything. And with that stuff still cut off, you can't even get propery PS3 software playback outside of the OS.

They resolved the hack system with the Slim, no linux support - no back door BD-Rom rips, or file sharing system. Just a plain console with normal functions.

Pinoy
12-13-2009, 02:30 PM
I have no doubt the ban was massive. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna feel any remorse for somebody's banned console. More than likely something was wrong with the system. If it was an honest mistake and somebody's console got banned without actually "stealing" anything then they should be compensated... absolutely.I'm not suggesting anybody feel sorry for the people who were banned. Only that gamers, being fickle creatures of habit, will almost assuredly replace their now useless console with a shiny new one. Considering that we know that a 'lot' (see what I did there :lol:) of consoles were banned we can reasonably conclude that a 'lot' of new consoles were sold.

But for the people who were knowingly hacking their system and playing pirated games... sucks to be you. I honestly couldn't care less. Just like I don't care when the same stuff happens to the PSP and Wii... don't play pirated games if you want to play online. It's as simple as that.

I'll admit I have pirated games and modded consoles :what:
But I will say that if they get banned from a service or if even I get in other trouble for having such things you'll hear no crying from me. You gotta pay to play sooner or later.

PFC5
12-13-2009, 02:31 PM
Well then the same can be said to the 360. Every 360 that RRoDs (or the majority of them anyways) gets fixed. It may take a while but Microsoft has given a 3 year warranty to those systems. Are you saying they just let them sit there and die? Not even bothering to send it out? That's not sound logic...

Chances are that if somebody does buy a new one it's so they can play again right away while their 360 is being serviced, which, once back, would probably be sold as well.

Now tell me... how does this same argument not apply to the 360?

I have seen many posts here where people are keeping "spare" 360s so they can play when the new one goes RRoD. So it is not the same thing. BTW, are they STILL giving 3 yr warranties on RRoD for the new units they are selling now, or was that just for the units built in the first 3 years?

Besides didn't the 360 come out in 2005? A 3 year warranty on the RRoD only takes you through 2008 for coverage right? We won't know how many RRoD units are gone forever and we will not know how many have been banned either but we do know there are millions that got the RRoD, and huge numbers got banned also. We DO all know that this fact IS causing repeat sales all over again. We just do not know how many, but my guess is that it is a very big number for these combined issues and it DOES effect the sales numbers IMO.

KEEBS1984
12-13-2009, 03:01 PM
I have seen many posts here where people are keeping "spare" 360s so they can play when the new one goes RRoD. So it is not the same thing. BTW, are they STILL giving 3 yr warranties on RRoD for the new units they are selling now, or was that just for the units built in the first 3 years?

Besides didn't the 360 come out in 2005? A 3 year warranty on the RRoD only takes you through 2008 for coverage right? We won't know how many RRoD units are gone forever and we will not know how many have been banned either but we do know there are millions that got the RRoD, and huge numbers got banned also. We DO all know that this fact IS causing repeat sales all over again. We just do not know how many, but my guess is that it is a very big number for these combined issues and it DOES effect the sales numbers IMO.

Most likely those people who keep a spare 360 are considered enthusiasts, people with spare income. I'd argue it's far more likely that your average 360 user doesn't have money to throw around and buy new consoles at whim. They might do it, but I'd be willing to bet they sell their old one to regain a bit of that original cash.

Of course this all means nothing without hard facts. You argue like you do, but, in reality, your arguing off your own assumptions and opinions.

YOU may know somebody who bought two 360s in order to keep one as a spare, but last time I checked anecdotal evidence isn't indicative of the general populace and it never will be.

So here are the facts:

1. We know people have replaced their 360 due to RRoD/banning.
2. We know people have upgraded from the PS3 Phat to the Slim.

You have no evidence that people sell their old PS3, nor do you have any evidence (outside of anecdotal) that people with the 360 keep a spare one just in case. Hell you could rally up 1000 friends of yours and if they all had a 360 and a spare 360 it still wouldn't count as fact because your friends are not indicative of the general populace.

You are arguing based off your own assumptions of what people do after they buy a new system. I am arguing based on causality:

If people replacing their 360 for a new console doesn't increase the total userbase of said system then neither does people upgrading their PS3 Phat to the Slim increase the total userbase for Sony.

And that's the way it will stay until a factual study is carried out that shows factual numbers on top of relevant data.

Pinoy
12-13-2009, 03:15 PM
So here are the facts:

1. We know people have replaced their 360 due to RRoD/banning.
2. We know people have upgraded from the PS3 Phat to the Slim.


Like I said before there is a difference:

1. People are replacing a non working/broken down/unusable POS that they still want.
2. People are *re*-buying a working/usuable item that they desire to have another of.

Replaced!=Upgraded


I hate junk hardware unless it's really cheap. That's my :2cents on the matter.

(please note that the above opinion implies nothing about sales, and is more of a statement about the actual products themselves)

MikeRox
12-13-2009, 03:17 PM
We also know people have upgraded early Xbox 360s for the HDMI port which was added and for larger HDDs/different colours... just to chuck that into the mix.

PFC5
12-13-2009, 04:36 PM
Most likely those people who keep a spare 360 are considered enthusiasts, people with spare income. I'd argue it's far more likely that your average 360 user doesn't have money to throw around and buy new consoles at whim. They might do it, but I'd be willing to bet they sell their old one to regain a bit of that original cash.

Of course this all means nothing without hard facts. You argue like you do, but, in reality, your arguing off your own assumptions and opinions.

YOU may know somebody who bought two 360s in order to keep one as a spare, but last time I checked anecdotal evidence isn't indicative of the general populace and it never will be.

So here are the facts:

1. We know people have replaced their 360 due to RRoD/banning.
2. We know people have upgraded from the PS3 Phat to the Slim.

You have no evidence that people sell their old PS3, nor do you have any evidence (outside of anecdotal) that people with the 360 keep a spare one just in case. Hell you could rally up 1000 friends of yours and if they all had a 360 and a spare 360 it still wouldn't count as fact because your friends are not indicative of the general populace.

You are arguing based off your own assumptions of what people do after they buy a new system. I am arguing based on causality:

If people replacing their 360 for a new console doesn't increase the total userbase of said system then neither does people upgrading their PS3 Phat to the Slim increase the total userbase for Sony.

And that's the way it will stay until a factual study is carried out that shows factual numbers on top of relevant data.

We DO know that some even here have spare 360s, unless they are lying about what they posted. We do know that some have multiple LE/SE editions they do not even open to keep as collectors of the multiple LE/SE versions the 360 have released. We do KNOW that something like 1 million 360s have or are expected (from MS's own release info) to have the RRoD breakdown. We do know that MANY are out of even the extended warranty period also, and likely the cost of repairing is not worth it for the updates done for the newer units now being sold. We also know that some people did "upgrade" to the PS3 slim from the phat model also.

There is no question that these FACTS do effect unit sales numbers, but we do not know how much. We also know that a very large number of 360s have been hardware banned and one estimate is around 1 million units and THAT will effect sales and this mass banning happened during this month in which the sales numbers are quoted also.

SO I think we can agree that these FACTS do effect the sales numbers but we don't have nor will we likely get any actual numbers of how MUCH it effects the sales numbers but I think it is very reasonable to believe that upgrading a working PS3 to a newer model is much more likely to result in a new user added to the base than a broken or banned unit adding to the user base. That is just common sense IMO.

But I do agree what we don't know how much these facts effect the sales for 11/2009. :hithere:

Cygnus
12-13-2009, 10:20 PM
Uncharted 2 disappeared from the charts after only one month, and that ODST is still listed. One could say that Uncharted 2, is living up to its name :o;)

http://www.gamasutra.com/images/top-20-nov-2009.png

KEEBS1984
12-13-2009, 10:31 PM
Uncharted 2 disappeared from the charts after only one month, and that ODST is still listed. One could say that Uncharted 2, is living up to its name :o;)



*Waits for the nuclear bomb that is this forum to go off*
:huh

Pinoy
12-14-2009, 01:51 AM
Uncharted 2 disappeared from the charts after only one month, and that ODST is still listed. One could say that Uncharted 2, is living up to its name :o;)

http://www.gamasutra.com/images/top-20-nov-2009.png


Don't worry, neither is the 'greatest racing simulation' Forza 3 :what:

Worst part about that is I'm looking at list of 20 games and I can't find *one* that is in the same league as Uncharted 2.

scsa
12-14-2009, 02:14 AM
And the Cyg does his homework he probably forgot to add that UC 2 is number 21 in the list or probably forgot another word that left out a big thing.

venomxr8
12-14-2009, 02:48 AM
its too bad for 360 only owners that Uncharted 2 blows every other game on that list away. Sales do not = quality, otherwise Wii Sports is the greatest game ever made.

MikeRox
12-14-2009, 07:00 AM
its too bad for 360 only owners that Uncharted 2 blows every other game on that list away. Sales do not = quality, otherwise Wii Sports is the greatest game ever made.

It's hardly a bad game :p I'd rate it above Halo and Uncharted, just not as good as Mario :D

Nintendo have stated on record that since the NPD data, New Super Mario Bros Wii has clocked up another 600,000+ units and now broken the 2 million mark in the US.

Also, I don't know if it's the case in the US, but ODST has been reduced to budget prices in the UK now in a fair few retailers. Forza 3 collectors edition was only £29.99 in GAME last week, gutted I missed it... decided I wanted it the day after the sale ended :lol:

jusHD
12-14-2009, 07:02 AM
its too bad for 360 only owners that Uncharted 2 blows every other game on that list away. Sales do not = quality, otherwise Wii Sports is the greatest game ever made.

:yippee:

kbaker2002de
12-14-2009, 08:58 AM
Will be interesting to see if Reggie can pull off his claim that New Super Mario Bros Wii will outsell the best selling single format version of Modern Warfare 2, It'll be chasing the 3 million units or so to catch up to the 360 ver? :lol: I have to say I don't see that happening by January, though I can see it's total install being better in its lifetime. Can see it managing it worldwide by January though, I think NSMB Wii shifted 500,000 units more than Modern Warfare 2 in Japan.

Even a Nintendo Fanboy like myself thinks that is a tall order given the frenzy of hype for MW2. The main difference is that MW2 will drop precipitously in the next couplt months though probably never out of the top 20 (maybe even 10 for 360) while the pattern would indicate that NSMBW will sell close to a mil units a month for 6 months and 300k-600k a month for the next 4 YEARS. If I remember the quote correctly, Reggie did not specify a time frame leaving him ample wiggle room in the future. I find it amazing that Mario Kart is selling 300k per month, 3+ years later and still at the full $50.

MikeRox
12-14-2009, 09:08 AM
I believe he set a deadline of January 2010, so I'm not convinced he'll make that, though I'm fairly certain that it will outsell the 360 ver of MW2 in lifetime sales due to the incredible tail these titles seem to have.

Cygnus
12-14-2009, 09:36 AM
Don't worry, neither is the 'greatest racing simulation' Forza 3 :what:

Gran tourino 5 is not on the list either… oh wait, it is vaporware :eek:;)

Worst part about that is I'm looking at list of 20 games and I can't find *one* that is in the same league as Uncharted 2.

Possibly, but I guess most gamers don't feel that way... :what:;)

kbaker2002de
12-14-2009, 09:47 AM
I believe he set a deadline of January 2010, so I'm not convinced he'll make that, though I'm fairly certain that it will outsell the 360 ver of MW2 in lifetime sales due to the incredible tail these titles seem to have.

OH SNAP! Didn't know that....yeah that won't happen :confused:

Razor05
12-14-2009, 10:50 AM
From the gamers I have talked to, including PS3 owners, most of them prefer XboxLive over PSN. So I'm not sure if this has anything to do with FPS sales such as COD MW2. ;)

J-Rod
12-14-2009, 11:27 AM
Also, need to mention the amount of 360 owners that actually had to BUY Modern Warfare 2 since M$ wasn't going to allow any more "sharing." That would hype the 360 MW2 game numbers...

KEEBS1984
12-14-2009, 12:51 PM
Also, need to mention the amount of 360 owners that actually had to BUY Modern Warfare 2 since M$ wasn't going to allow any more "sharing." That would hype the 360 MW2 game numbers...

:confused:

Care to elaborate on this? I've never read anywhere that Microsoft was disallowing the sharing/borrowing of games.

Razor05
12-14-2009, 01:05 PM
Also, need to mention the amount of 360 owners that actually had to BUY Modern Warfare 2 since M$ wasn't going to allow any more "sharing." That would hype the 360 MW2 game numbers...

What does 'sharing' mean, like sharing the game disk? I'm not sure I understand what's going on here. So if more 360 owners had to buy the game individually, that inflates numbers?

Razor05
12-14-2009, 01:08 PM
:confused:

Care to elaborate on this? I've never read anywhere that Microsoft was disallowing the sharing/borrowing of games.

Heh, if that's the case then that would hold true for any console.;)

railven
12-14-2009, 01:09 PM
:confused:

Care to elaborate on this? I've never read anywhere that Microsoft was disallowing the sharing/borrowing of games.

Seems the Fall Update v2 will lock your CD-ROM drive to only read one unique ID of a CD that will be stored on the HDD. If the ID of the CD doesn't match the ID on the drive, the game will not load.




By the way, I'm bullshitting you, I have no idea what he is talking about either haha.

Pinoy
12-14-2009, 01:57 PM
Gran tourino 5 is not on the list either… oh wait, it is vaporware :eek:;)

That's because Mr. Eastwood died in the first one, no possible sequel :p

Poor Turn 10, Forza 3 barely breaking a million in sales after a month. I don't think they even surpassed GT5Prologue in first month sales :roflmao:

Possibly, but I guess most gamers don't feel that way... :what:;)
I'm pretty sure it was the 'gamers' that voted it Game of the Year :huh :what:


Seems the Fall Update v2 will lock your CD-ROM drive to only read one unique ID of a CD that will be stored on the HDD. If the ID of the CD doesn't match the ID on the drive, the game will not load.


By the way, I'm bullshitting you, I have no idea what he is talking about either haha.

Nice one. BTW I have no idea what he's talking about either, unless he's referring to modded consoles and pirated games in a strange sort of way.

KEEBS1984
12-14-2009, 01:57 PM
Seems the Fall Update v2 will lock your CD-ROM drive to only read one unique ID of a CD that will be stored on the HDD. If the ID of the CD doesn't match the ID on the drive, the game will not load.


Don't scare me like that!

Unlike with the other guy, I'm liable to take what you say as truth. :o

Mase
12-14-2009, 02:42 PM
Sorry I don't agree with modding for an unfair advantage, but charging 3x the money for accessories and banning those that do to save money is an entirely different thing that makes me NEVER want to buy a 360. It just seems dumb for ANYONE to not say FU to MS for that alone never mind the banning and RRoD issues that appears even more prevalent than I thought it was originally. Again WHO would be dumb enough to keep buying the same brand of HDTV repeatedly after they kept buying units that died? At most it only takes twice for me to purge from consideration buying a given mfg products, and usually only once.

Where do they charge 3x the amount for accesories and which are you referring to? Controllers are on par if not cheaper than the PS3 and the 360 contrller has never had a redesign, where as Sony and its rumble is soo last gen, has had a redesign.. Where now if you want to enjoy rumble, you're forced to buy another controller, early adopters should not have had to do this...

Who was trying to save money that got banned? Those who wanted free games that were attained by use of piracy? No one who had mem cards or HDDs were banned, just those who were caught using a modded console with a backup game.. My friend had his console modded, but has never played a backup game as he does not game very often.. Now his console has not been banned, so this leads me to believe that either my friend was ripped off, or MS only banned those who were playing backup games.

Your reasons for disliking the console are fanboy and to say those of us who enjoy it are dumb, is pretty ridiculous.. Yes there are legitimate issues with the 360's hardware, but that does not effect everyone. Accesories are no more expensive than the PS3, people are up in arms about the wirelss adapter, but its not necesarry to use the console, as it does have an ethernet port. You pay to play online, yea $35-40 a year is too much to stomach for a hobby :rolleyes:.. I have some rather expensive hobbies that cost far more than that, gaming is actually one of my cheaper hobbies..

I understood exactly what you are arguing/debating. It is faulty logic because those who upgrade from the Phat PS3 to the slim PS3 are doing something with that functioning phat PS3 aren't they? Most are not sticking them in a closet or throwing them in the trash. They are likely selling them to someone else who becomes a new user.

However, those who had to buy a new 360 because of the RRod have an old BROKEN console that no one "new" would buy (unless they are dumb IMO), so I agree that those RRod 360s will NOT add to the user base, but ARE adding to the stats for units sold, while those who sell or give away the phat PS3 (that still works which IS the key to the difference ;)) to upgrade to the slim model ARE increasing the user base. See the difference? ;)

Just because they are doing something with the extra PS3 where as a 360 user may just be storing it, does not add to the userbase.. Would the PS3 user now buy 2 copies of the same game vs the 360 owner? Just take a look at the attach rate, by what you are saying is that most of the consoles are rebuys which should not add to the userbase, but the 360 attach rate is trumping the PS3..

Again, who cares if its adding to the stats are not? The 360 still sells more software per console sold than any console this gen.. It is even more amazing to think that, it manages to do this even with its problems and its padded numbers..

Uncharted 2 disappeared from the charts after only one month, and that ODST is still listed. One could say that Uncharted 2, is living up to its name :o;)

http://www.gamasutra.com/images/top-20-nov-2009.png

It boggles my mind that more copies have not been sold, it is one of the best games I have ever played in my life.. However like Venom said, sales are not indicative of quality.... This game should be mandatory for any PS3 owner, but even with advertising and a new lower price, the PS3 populace just are not buying it.. Its a good thing that Naughty Dog gets paid by Sony regardless of sales, as they made an amazing that the userbase did not get behind..

Cygnus
12-14-2009, 02:52 PM
PS3 is just a frat boy FPS console… PS3 owners don’t care about quality just space marines ;)

However like Venom said, sales are not indicative of quality.... This game should be mandatory for any PS3 owner, but even with advertising and a new lower price, the PS3 populace just are not buying it..

Razor05
12-14-2009, 03:20 PM
I don't see how 360 numbers are padded. Even if a given number of gamers bought a second or third console, they would only buy a game once.

PFC5
12-14-2009, 03:26 PM
Where do they charge 3x the amount for accesories and which are you referring to? Controllers are on par if not cheaper than the PS3 and the 360 contrller has never had a redesign, where as Sony and its rumble is soo last gen, has had a redesign.. Where now if you want to enjoy rumble, you're forced to buy another controller, early adopters should not have had to do this...

Who was trying to save money that got banned? Those who wanted free games that were attained by use of piracy? No one who had mem cards or HDDs were banned, just those who were caught using a modded console with a backup game.. My friend had his console modded, but has never played a backup game as he does not game very often.. Now his console has not been banned, so this leads me to believe that either my friend was ripped off, or MS only banned those who were playing backup games.

Your reasons for disliking the console are fanboy and to say those of us who enjoy it are dumb, is pretty ridiculous.. Yes there are legitimate issues with the 360's hardware, but that does not effect everyone. Accesories are no more expensive than the PS3, people are up in arms about the wirelss adapter, but its not necesarry to use the console, as it does have an ethernet port. You pay to play online, yea $35-40 a year is too much to stomach for a hobby :rolleyes:.. I have some rather expensive hobbies that cost far more than that, gaming is actually one of my cheaper hobbies..



Just because they are doing something with the extra PS3 where as a 360 user may just be storing it, does not add to the userbase.. Would the PS3 user now buy 2 copies of the same game vs the 360 owner? Just take a look at the attach rate, by what you are saying is that most of the consoles are rebuys which should not add to the userbase, but the 360 attach rate is trumping the PS3..

Again, who cares if its adding to the stats are not? The 360 still sells more software per console sold than any console this gen.. It is even more amazing to think that, it manages to do this even with its problems and its padded numbers..



It boggles my mind that more copies have not been sold, it is one of the best games I have ever played in my life.. However like Venom said, sales are not indicative of quality.... This game should be mandatory for any PS3 owner, but even with advertising and a new lower price, the PS3 populace just are not buying it.. Its a good thing that Naughty Dog gets paid by Sony regardless of sales, as they made an amazing that the userbase did not get behind..

I am referring to the hard drives and memory cards that have to be "official" and from what I have read they cost much more, whereas the PS3 I can just change the HDD with any laptop drive for about 1/3 the cost.

Upgrading to a slim PS3 would allow the other phat version to be sold to a new user. A RRoD 360 cannot be sold except for maybe parts but then you run into other potential issues I assume with some part ID being used to look for a modded unit that could get banned.

I am not a fanboy IMO, because I am not much of a gamer. I only play COD. I am just looking at some of the reasons the 360 sells units to people who had to buy the poor hardware designed consoles over and over again and how that could skew the sales numbers. It is true that I do not understand WHY anyone would keep buying such faulty consoles when an alternative is available. We most of you who do this with the 360 do this with HDTVs also? I didn't mean to say people are dumb for doing this, but it does seem dumb to do this none the less from a basically non-gamer POV.

KEEBS1984
12-14-2009, 03:36 PM
Upgrading to a slim PS3 would allow the other phat version to be sold to a new user. A RRoD 360 cannot be sold except for maybe parts but then you run into other potential issues I assume with some part ID being used to look for a modded unit that could get banned.


I still can't believe you believe people don't actually send their 360s in for repair... or then sell them after they receive their new one. You have some valid points PFC, but come on... are you serious?

PFC5
12-14-2009, 03:39 PM
I still can't believe you believe people don't actually send their 360s in for repair... or then sell them after they receive their new one. You have some valid points PFC, but come on... are you serious?

So how many 360s have you bought and how many have YOU sold?

I keep reading about people keeping backup consoles and those people are NOT adding to the user base when they do that.

KEEBS1984
12-14-2009, 03:50 PM
So how many 360s have you bought and how many have YOU sold?

I keep reading about people keeping backup consoles and those people are NOT adding to the user base when they do that.

I've bought one and not sold any.

But I've had 3 friends sell their own.

One upgraded to an Elite.
One replaced his RRoD and then sold it when it returned.
One sold his and bought a PS3.

But this doesn't matter. Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence at all. But the mere thought that you find it impossible is absolutely ridiculous. In this economy you honestly believe every 360 owner is just rushing out to buy new consoles to replace their own and then keep a second as back up "just in case"...?

Don't know about you, but most people I know were hit pretty bad when things went south... with a couple being laid off entirely.

Maybe if we were still in 2006, but the difference between then and now is staggering.

PFC5
12-14-2009, 03:57 PM
I've bought one and not sold any.

But I've had 3 friends sell their own.

One upgraded to an Elite.
One replaced his RRoD and then sold it when it returned.
One sold his and bought a PS3.

But this doesn't matter. Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence at all. But the mere thought that you find it impossible is absolutely ridiculous. In this economy you honestly believe every 360 owner is just rushing out to buy new consoles to replace their own and then keep a second as back up "just in case"...?

Don't know about you, but most people I know were hit pretty bad when things went south... with a couple being laid off entirely.

Maybe if we were still in 2006, but the difference between then and now is staggering.

Well I hear about people in the gaming section here and on another site in the past who not only keep a back up, but some even collect the LE/SE packaged units. I am sure that most do not collect LE/SE editions, but i am reading this here for some. I would assume a hard core gamer would not want to go weeks without a console if they got a RRoD so they would want a spare and this is what I have read people doing. You mean to tell me you never heard of this being done? Or that hardly anyone is doing this at all?

As I said before we likely could never get the numbers for this, but to some extent it must be having some effect on the console sales. How much could only be guessed. It doesn't mean because it had to be a guess that it should be totally ignored which is what you seem to be saying should be done with this info.

I heard all the speculation about the PS3 being used as strictly a BD player and also that it was used as a gaming console only by both sides during the format war, but guess everyone did with those numbers also. ;)

Cygnus
12-14-2009, 03:59 PM
For the record, I have bought one 360 and sold none... :angel

So how many 360s have you bought and how many have YOU sold?

I keep reading about people keeping backup consoles and those people are NOT adding to the user base when they do that.

MikeRox
12-14-2009, 04:16 PM
PS3 is just a frat boy FPS console… PS3 owners don’t care about quality just space marines ;)

I thought you said they were all watching Blu-rays and not interested in games? Make up your mind! :p :lol:

I don't get why you're laying into Uncharted 2 so much while completely skimming over Forza 3's relative retail bombing which is pretty much the same is it not?

Cygnus
12-14-2009, 04:29 PM
Forza 3 was a success. As a matter of fact M$ recently released a car pack for it celebrating its million sales milestone. :cool: Sim racing is a much smaller market than a shootah ;) Surely you didn't expect halo like sales from forza? :what: Additionally uncharted 2 received a huge TV ad budget whereas forza 3 didn't. BTW, so you are saying that uncharted 2 relatively bombed at retail..? ;)

I don't get why you're laying into Uncharted 2 so much while completely skimming over Forza 3's relative retail bombing which is pretty much the same is it not?

MikeRox
12-14-2009, 04:41 PM
I'd say vanishing from the top 20 is very dissapointing for Sony and Naughty Dog. Doesn't take anything away from it as a game (much like Forza 3s poor sales don't)

I thought 1 million was poor sales for a blockbuster AAA title? You seem to chop and change your message.

Btw, that small sim racer market... No Halo title has ever outsold Gran Turismo 1 or 3 :p and Halo 3 only sold about 100,000 more units than Gran Turismo 4. Halo 3 was also the only Halo title to outsell Gran Turismo 2, so it's safe to say Gran Turismo is a bigger franchise than Halo ;)

So to summarise - Cygnus "1 million = huge success for a Sim racer due to small market"

Reality - "Sim racer franchise is bigger than Halo (and I think any other single franchise for a genre barring Mario).

junehhan
12-14-2009, 04:43 PM
For the record, I have bought one 360 and sold none... :angel

I've bought one and sold none as well. However, I am on my 4th console. My launch day unit lasted for a bit over a year and red lighted on me. I then went through 3 in the matter of a few weeks as they all failed almost immediately. To be fair though, 2 of the 3 looked like they had gotten beaten to hell during shipping as the box was messed up.

However, I havn't heard much about Microsoft having many problems ever since they got things straightened out. I still know many people who still have launch day units that have never failed yet. 2 of them went ahead and fixed the heat sink as a preventative measure after we found out why the early X360 units were red lighting.

I am thinking about upgrading to an elite lately. That MW2 elite bundle is a very good bargain when you look at what you get, and there are plenty of them still in stock around here.

PFC5
12-14-2009, 04:50 PM
For the record, I have bought one 360 and sold none... :angel

It sounds like you are in the minority at this point wouldn't you agree? Hasn't the estimate of launch 360 consoles that got the RRoD been over 50% so far?

You skimmed over answering about WHY it is OK to estimate the PS3s used for gaming only versus BD movie playback during the format war, but don't want to use some estimates for how many new 360 sales are for people with dead consoles?

We have to be consistent IMO and admit that this IS a part of the sales numbers.

Cygnus
12-14-2009, 05:03 PM
It sounds like you are in the minority at this point wouldn't you agree?

I dunno... Remember this is the interwebz, ppl who complain are the ones who speak the loudest. I have read threads from many others who have not bought multiple 360s... Thus I went by my own experience...since I know it would be fair and balanced :angel

You skimmed over answering about WHY it is OK to estimate the PS3s used for gaming only versus BD movie playback during the format war, but don't want to use some estimates for how many new 360 sales are for people with dead consoles?

It is hard to tell with either situation. :what: Thus I prefer to look at NPD game sales numbers...

We have to be consistent IMO and admit that this IS a part of the sales numbers.

But of course :angel

KEEBS1984
12-14-2009, 05:15 PM
Well I hear about people in the gaming section here and on another site in the past who not only keep a back up, but some even collect the LE/SE packaged units. I am sure that most do not collect LE/SE editions, but i am reading this here for some. I would assume a hard core gamer would not want to go weeks without a console if they got a RRoD so they would want a spare and this is what I have read people doing. You mean to tell me you never heard of this being done? Or that hardly anyone is doing this at all?

As I said before we likely could never get the numbers for this, but to some extent it must be having some effect on the console sales. How much could only be guessed. It doesn't mean because it had to be a guess that it should be totally ignored which is what you seem to be saying should be done with this info.

I heard all the speculation about the PS3 being used as strictly a BD player and also that it was used as a gaming console only by both sides during the format war, but guess everyone did with those numbers also. ;)

I do hear about them, but we are the exception. You seem to be assuming that people like us, on this forum or NeoGAF or any other forum, are the majority of gamers.We aren't... there's a reason why most of us here probably have well over 20 games and yet the average amount of games per household is something like 4... it' because we're enthusiasts. We'll buy a spare console, we'll collect LE consoles, and... yes... we'll even spend $600 on a console just to say we had it first.

Everybody else, as in the vast majority of people, who game are not like us. They buy a console, play maybe a few games but, by and large, ignore the main spectrum of what we love about gaming so much.

We not not equal the general populace... we are the exception not the rule.

junehhan
12-14-2009, 09:44 PM
It sounds like you are in the minority at this point wouldn't you agree? Hasn't the estimate of launch 360 consoles that got the RRoD been over 50% so far?

You skimmed over answering about WHY it is OK to estimate the PS3s used for gaming only versus BD movie playback during the format war, but don't want to use some estimates for how many new 360 sales are for people with dead consoles?

We have to be consistent IMO and admit that this IS a part of the sales numbers.

I'd like to know what the failure rate on those PS2's were Pretty darn insane from what i've seen, and it reached a point where it triggered off lawsuits. At least Microsoft hasn't had that problem yet. At least they eventually admitted the problem and extended the warranty bumper to bumper to a year and 3 years for the red lighting issue.

Mase
12-14-2009, 10:24 PM
I am referring to the hard drives and memory cards that have to be "official" and from what I have read they cost much more, whereas the PS3 I can just change the HDD with any laptop drive for about 1/3 the cost.

Upgrading to a slim PS3 would allow the other phat version to be sold to a new user. A RRoD 360 cannot be sold except for maybe parts but then you run into other potential issues I assume with some part ID being used to look for a modded unit that could get banned.

I am not a fanboy IMO, because I am not much of a gamer. I only play COD. I am just looking at some of the reasons the 360 sells units to people who had to buy the poor hardware designed consoles over and over again and how that could skew the sales numbers. It is true that I do not understand WHY anyone would keep buying such faulty consoles when an alternative is available. We most of you who do this with the 360 do this with HDTVs also? I didn't mean to say people are dumb for doing this, but it does seem dumb to do this none the less from a basically non-gamer POV.

You use your anecdotal evidence like its fact, thats the fanboy in you, you just skim past all the points people make against the PS3 or to counter act your argument and just ignore them.

Just because someone's console Red Rings does not mean it is now useless and that person must go get a new console. Even if people are doing this, you still have not acknowledged that even with its mis haps and padded numbers, it is beating the crap out of the almighty PS3 in software (hardware too), month in and month out..

Like you said, you only play one game, perhaps thats the PS3's problem.. All of its titles are suffering because even though it has a rather large userbase (the PS3) people just are not buying up the AAA titles.... Which is why Sony is paying devs for games that just dont sell as well as they should... The quality versus sales should be in line and its just not with the PS3.

Mase
12-14-2009, 10:26 PM
I'd like to know what the failure rate on those PS2's were Pretty darn insane from what i've seen, and it reached a point where it triggered off lawsuits. At least Microsoft hasn't had that problem yet. At least they eventually admitted the problem and extended the warranty bumper to bumper to a year and 3 years for the red lighting issue.

I have some anecdotal evidence, I went through 5-6 PS2's, the freaking disc drive just couldnt take the abuse of playing games and watching movies (wait, wasnt that what it was made for?).. I dont fault Sony though, as I enjoyed the games and I loved that it was an all in one component.

PFC5
12-14-2009, 11:14 PM
You use your anecdotal evidence like its fact, thats the fanboy in you, you just skim past all the points people make against the PS3 or to counter act your argument and just ignore them.

Just because someone's console Red Rings does not mean it is now useless and that person must go get a new console. Even if people are doing this, you still have not acknowledged that even with its mis haps and padded numbers, it is beating the crap out of the almighty PS3 in software (hardware too), month in and month out..

Like you said, you only play one game, perhaps thats the PS3's problem.. All of its titles are suffering because even though it has a rather large userbase (the PS3) people just are not buying up the AAA titles.... Which is why Sony is paying devs for games that just dont sell as well as they should... The quality versus sales should be in line and its just not with the PS3.

There is nothing to dispute about the software sales of the 2 platforms. The 360 is definitely beating it fairly easily from what I have read. I was trying to keep the debate withing the parameters of the hardware sales. ;)

I only play the 3 COD versions I have, but my kids play about 10+ more games on it as well. We also have the wii in another room with exercise equipment and a couch for that on the 50" DLP. We have more games on the PS3 than on the wii.

Believe me I am not saying the PS3 is God's gift to gamers or HD movie fans. Yes it does both very well, but I really really really hate the exclusion of an IR receiver for remote commands when playing BD movies. Heck it would likely have only cost them a buck or less to add that yet they STILL didn't add it when they redesigned the PS3 slim. :banghead: I also seem to go through controllers fairly fast with two dead/damaged analog sticks on the controllers since 11/2006.

So believe me when I say I am not a fanboy. I am not usually anti-MS either. But I am anti-360 because from a hardware perspective it is VERY poorly designed and I don't like rewarding companies for doing that to consumers (especially to me). ;)

junehhan
12-14-2009, 11:29 PM
There is nothing to dispute about the software sales of the 2 platforms. The 360 is definitely beating it fairly easily from what I have read. I was trying to keep the debate withing the parameters of the hardware sales. ;)

I only play the 3 COD versions I have, but my kids play about 10+ more games on it as well. We also have the wii in another room with exercise equipment and a couch for that on the 50" DLP. We have more games on the PS3 than on the wii.

Believe me I am not saying the PS3 is God's gift to gamers or HD movie fans. Yes it does both very well, but I really really really hate the exclusion of an IR receiver for remote commands when playing BD movies. Heck it would likely have only cost them a buck or less to add that yet they STILL didn't add it when they redesigned the PS3 slim. :banghead: I also seem to go through controllers fairly fast with two dead/damaged analog sticks on the controllers since 11/2006.

So believe me when I say I am not a fanboy. I am not usually anti-MS either. But I am anti-360 because from a hardware perspective it is VERY poorly designed and I don't like rewarding companies for doing that to consumers (especially to me). ;)

Poor hardware design can be rectified, and all reports indicate that it has been. One thing about these user surveys that invite anyone who wants to participate, is that you cannot infer any trend or fact from them. So long as a survey cannot control for who fills them out, and what their responses are, they are not valid for anything other than internet bickering.

Software sales continue to indicate that Microsoft is doing very well as the ratio at which they outsell PS3 versions is incredible when people say the PS3 is catching up.

When someone releases something that was not up to par, the question becomes whether they admit to it and whether they do anything about it. Microsoft extended the bumper to bumper warranty to a year(up from 90 days), and 3 years on red lighting issues. For Sony, it took a major class action lawsuit for them to do something about POS PS2's that had the worst DVD drives anyone has likely seen(my $15 computer Chinese built DVD drive is more reliable). Even then, they refused the problem and the solution was considered by many to be inadequate. The failure rate on many of those PS2's were incredible and makes the X360 red light issue pale in comparison. That doesn't even take into account how poorly built PS2 controllers are as they go bad quickly. At least my X360 launch day controller is still working perfectly.

If Microsoft wants to release proprietary hardware, I don't blame them as allowing for aftermarket stuff can add another avenue for pirates to use to get around copy protection. Software piracy is a problem unfortunately and it runs rampant.

scsa
12-14-2009, 11:36 PM
Really that's why a less then 2 month old controller we bought hit the dust a day ago the controllers are over priced and really bad most of the time. Oh and yeah the ps3 is catching up just because the 360 had a year advantage doesn't mean the 360 is still going to destroy the ps3. Eventually the 360 might become 3rd place since they have done nothing really this year to make people want to buy it while the ps3 has had about 5-10 hit games that are exclusives come out. Hell the 360 has had what 2 this year.

venomxr8
12-14-2009, 11:52 PM
PS3 is just a frat boy FPS console… PS3 owners don’t care about quality just space marines ;)

Hmmmmmm, when I think of space marines and babbling fan boys the only one I can think of is Master Chief. What console does he appear on again????;)

junehhan
12-15-2009, 12:11 AM
Really that's why a less then 2 month old controller we bought hit the dust a day ago the controllers are over priced and really bad most of the time. Oh and yeah the ps3 is catching up just because the 360 had a year advantage doesn't mean the 360 is still going to destroy the ps3. Eventually the 360 might become 3rd place since they have done nothing really this year to make people want to buy it while the ps3 has had about 5-10 hit games that are exclusives come out. Hell the 360 has had what 2 this year.

It all boils down to what kind of games you want to play. By comparison, the X360 has given many people plenty of reasons to buy the console. The November sales are a good example as most analysts thought the PS3 was going to outsell with the new cheaper slim model. I personally can't understand why the Nintendo is still popular, but then again I tend to place high weights on graphics and modern sound effects in game. To me, fancy controls don't fix last generation graphics.

Even when you compare the same game, the X360 versions destroyed the PS3 versions by comparison.

I don't own a PS3 because it has nothing I want. By comparison if I were to have a different preference for games, I can see why I might prefer the PS3 over the X360.

The X360 could easily slip to 3rd place, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. By the time it happens, it may not matter as i'm sure all of the console makers are working on what the next gen will be.

scsa
12-15-2009, 12:21 AM
You do know that just about every game on the list for november but Halo is multiplatiform on the 360 right so how again is the Nov. numbers examples of that when most can still be on the ps3 and plus the ps3 has a lot of exclusives this year compared to the 360 which barely had any this year again I said this year not last not the year before or not 2010 this year compared to the ps3 MS had nothing good really. Again the shooters are what the 360 is all about that is why the games like COD did so well on the 360 plus half the people who tried to steal cod got banned so they had to buy the 360 version instead of the normal stealing of it. Which again is why the numbers are so good for the 360 compared to the ps3 since no one was banned from the ps3 while lets say 600,000 to 1 million were banned including me from the 360.

Pinoy
12-15-2009, 02:42 AM
Forza 3 was a success. As a matter of fact M$ recently released a car pack for it celebrating its million sales milestone. :cool:
Uncharted 2 broke a million in sales in a similar time frame as FM3 did... yet FM3 is a success and UC2 isn't :huh
Sim racing is a much smaller market than a shootah ;)
No. Racing sims are not a small market. Matter of fact one little racing sim happens to be the biggest playstation franchise of all time selling over 10 million each iteration on average.
Surely you didn't expect halo like sales from forza? :what:
No, to be honest I didn't. I was expecting at least GT5P sales though :banana:

MikeRox
12-15-2009, 02:52 AM
Uncharted 2 broke a million in sales in a similar time frame as FM3 did... yet FM3 is a success and UC2 isn't :huh

No. Racing sims are not a small market. Matter of fact one little racing sim happens to be the biggest playstation franchise of all time selling over 10 million each iteration on average.

No, to be honest I didn't. I was expecting at least GT5P sales though :banana:

We know it's one rule for 360 and another for every other console. ;) Cyg went on record last year stating any high profile title failing to sell at least a couple of million was a bomb. However then didn't apply that to underperforming Xbox 360 titles, as they were obviously not selling as well as he'd like due to being niche or something like that.

It's interesting that the genre of one of the biggest gaming franchise of all time is "niche", must be because it's a market MS are seemingly unable to crack.

GT5P has netted roughly 3.3m units on Blu-ray. (I believe that figure doesn't include PSN downloads as the PSN ver is listed as a seperate title) Not bad for an overpriced demo eh Cyg ;)

pearl-drum-man
12-15-2009, 05:57 AM
It is true that I do not understand WHY anyone would keep buying such faulty consoles when an alternative is available. We most of you who do this with the 360 do this with HDTVs also? I didn't mean to say people are dumb for doing this, but it does seem dumb to do this none the less from a basically non-gamer POV.

I am definitely not thrilled with the POS hardware of the 360, however I can say from my perspective that it is not an option for me to just jump ship on the 360 and all the games that it has that I love to play (and have invested much to own) and go exclusively to the PS3. That explains why I would feel the need to buy another 360 if my current one ever flamed out without free replacement. As for the HDTV analogy, it isn't really an apples to apples comparison, as another brand HDTV will do exactly the same thing as a faulty brand, but the PS3 does not play everything that the 360 plays.

In addition, I know ONE person with a PS3, everyone else I know that games online has the 360, I would be eliminating the ability to play with all of them online as well. My PS3 friend also has a 360, so I still play with him via Live. Bottom line, it is not just a "this or that" hardware decision (360 vs PS3), there is a lot more invested in it than just the console itself.

pearl-drum-man
12-15-2009, 06:10 AM
The X360 could easily slip to 3rd place, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. By the time it happens, it may not matter as i'm sure all of the console makers are working on what the next gen will be.

Yeah, I guess we will have to see what the Natal effect is as well. Can't say I'm too excited about it, but it may give the format a boost and add to the lifespan

Poor hardware design can be rectified, and all reports indicate that it has been.

Seems to be the case. I recently posted a thread about the extremely high failure rate (of early hardware designs). Since I have been researching newer hardware with the Jasper chips, all that I have been able to find suggests a failure rate that is in line with the Wii/PS3. IF this is true, the RRoD issues will fade. It also appears that MS is putting the Jasper in all versions of the 360 now (since the fall), for a long time it was the Arcade units only.

kbaker2002de
12-15-2009, 08:05 AM
It all boils down to what kind of games you want to play. By comparison, the X360 has given many people plenty of reasons to buy the console. The November sales are a good example as most analysts thought the PS3 was going to outsell with the new cheaper slim model. I personally can't understand why the Nintendo is still popular, but then again I tend to place high weights on graphics and modern sound effects in game. To me, fancy controls don't fix last generation graphics.

Even when you compare the same game, the X360 versions destroyed the PS3 versions by comparison.

I don't own a PS3 because it has nothing I want. By comparison if I were to have a different preference for games, I can see why I might prefer the PS3 over the X360.

The X360 could easily slip to 3rd place, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. By the time it happens, it may not matter as i'm sure all of the console makers are working on what the next gen will be.

One word: MARIO

Just about any game with Mario will sell nearly 10 million copies and having Zelda doesn't hurt. Now for graphics and sound, I will say this I was playing MW1 on my sisters PS3 for a while and played a lot of COD:WAW on my Wii at home. Yes the graphics were much better, heck WAW on Wii isn't even as good looking as RE4 on Wii or even Metroid Prime on GC.

But in all honesty the pretty graphics wore off after a short while and when I was playing the game I stopped noticing the graphical difference due to the gameplay. I was more impressed with just how much better a designed game MW1 was compared to WAW. However I HATED dual analog for an FPS I found it sluggish and inconsistent where the Wii's pointer controls to be quicker and more precise.

Regarding sound, that is one of the most underappreciated qualities of any HT system outside of a forum like this. I would bet a majority of people are going out buying BR players, hooking it up to an HDTV and if they get a 5.1 system are using 2-Channel analog cables. Yes the Wii should have an optical output for digital sound, but let's be honest only about 1.5% of the market really gives a crap.

MikeRox
12-15-2009, 08:50 AM
Don't understand why Nintendo are so popular at the moment? You're not their current target demographic is all. I don't blame Nintendo one bit for their current approach. It was clear they were going to be butchered if they'd gone head to head like last gen with a "me too" powerhouse console.

The Wii was the only real option Nintendo had. Their core market dwinding badly (look at GC software sales, even the 1st party stuff didn't fare anywhere near as well as in previous years.) They needed a new userbase, they've made it, it's popular. Quite why so many people (mainly ones who ignored their incredible GC output) are now bitching I don't understand.

It was clear Nintendo would have gone the way of Sega had they release something on the lines of the 360 and PS3. They aren't a mega corporation with loads of other things to prop up the billions of losses both MS and Sony have had to endure this generation. It might look relatively rosey for them now, but a 3rd competitor playing exactly the same game would have ended in mega tears for one of the companies and it is doubtful that MS or Sony will ever break even on the current consoles.

kbaker2002de
12-15-2009, 09:31 AM
Don't understand why Nintendo are so popular at the moment? You're not their current target demographic is all. I don't blame Nintendo one bit for their current approach. It was clear they were going to be butchered if they'd gone head to head like last gen with a "me too" powerhouse console.

The Wii was the only real option Nintendo had. Their core market dwinding badly (look at GC software sales, even the 1st party stuff didn't fare anywhere near as well as in previous years.) They needed a new userbase, they've made it, it's popular. Quite why so many people (mainly ones who ignored their incredible GC output) are now bitching I don't understand.

It was clear Nintendo would have gone the way of Sega had they release something on the lines of the 360 and PS3. They aren't a mega corporation with loads of other things to prop up the billions of losses both MS and Sony have had to endure this generation. It might look relatively rosey for them now, but a 3rd competitor playing exactly the same game would have ended in mega tears for one of the companies and it is doubtful that MS or Sony will ever break even on the current consoles.

Actually, I don't think that the XBOX ever broke even and I think the 360 just this year got into the black for 2009. Has the games division ever been profitable for either Sony or MS? I believe that I remember reading somewhere that depsite the meager sales and being a #3 console, the GC was the most profitable system of that Gen.

The one factor that would keep Nintendo afloat....the DS. The single most successful and profitable gaming platform of all time. Everyone is making skads of cash off it and I think there are more DS sold than Wii, 360 & PS3 combined.

PFC5
12-15-2009, 09:49 AM
I am definitely not thrilled with the POS hardware of the 360, however I can say from my perspective that it is not an option for me to just jump ship on the 360 and all the games that it has that I love to play (and have invested much to own) and go exclusively to the PS3. That explains why I would feel the need to buy another 360 if my current one ever flamed out without free replacement. As for the HDTV analogy, it isn't really an apples to apples comparison, as another brand HDTV will do exactly the same thing as a faulty brand, but the PS3 does not play everything that the 360 plays.

In addition, I know ONE person with a PS3, everyone else I know that games online has the 360, I would be eliminating the ability to play with all of them online as well. My PS3 friend also has a 360, so I still play with him via Live. Bottom line, it is not just a "this or that" hardware decision (360 vs PS3), there is a lot more invested in it than just the console itself.

I understand the investment in games and having many/most of your friends using the 360, but at what point does principals overtake allowing MS to keep gouging? From what I have read, I personally would have already have reached the breaking point a long time ago. I guess everyone has different thresholds before they say "ENOUGH".

MikeRox
12-15-2009, 09:53 AM
The PlayStation has been extremely profitable for Sony in it's lifespan, at one point accounting for 40% of Sony's entire profits. The PS3 however has been a commercial blunder due to a lack of control over the top engineers (notably Ken Kuturagi) who had nobody holding the reins when he designed the PS3 making the console far too expensive to manufacture initially.

Microsoft lost 4bn in the end of the original Xbox, their losses on the 360 were never really disclosed however at least $1bn was set aside for the RROD issue. They sold all their hardware at a loss initially (following Sony's model with the PlayStation) and so that was further losses not including the R&D on the 360. They turn a modest profit now, but it will most likely, even if the 360 continued as it is now for the next 5 years or so never match the money which has been lost on the 360. The console market is a loss maker for Microsoft simply because they are in it more to preserve their applications business (the PS2 was at one point rumoured to be a replacement to the traditional home PC which would have made Windows redundant) rather than anything else.

The reason Sony pulled off the "sell it for a loss" model so well, is basically because they have sold 100+m units both generations and been the market leaders. That means the software sales are more than strong enough to cover losses made on earlier model systems.

The 360 and PS3 userbases are tiny in comparison (they'd need to be closer to Wii volumes to really be able to start covering the initial hardware losses) this is why I don't think the "sell the console at a loss" model will ever truly work for anyone other than the market leader which at present, neither console manufacturer is.

J-Rod
12-15-2009, 11:06 AM
:confused:

Care to elaborate on this? I've never read anywhere that Microsoft was disallowing the sharing/borrowing of games.

Sorry I used shared as a nice way to put stealing.

J-Rod
12-15-2009, 11:08 AM
What does 'sharing' mean, like sharing the game disk? I'm not sure I understand what's going on here. So if more 360 owners had to buy the game individually, that inflates numbers?

The way I see it... lets say me and me 5 buddies went in on all games at a little over $10.00 a piece. Bought 1 game and 5 of us played... now all 5 would have to buy the game, and new system, to be able to play.

***edit: My point is (really small one to all you Guru's, cause who cares who sells more of this or that... we all like a particular thing and its Gaming, right?) on to my point:
If its going to be brought up that banned console's can be a reason the 360 is selling more then you only have to believe the MW2 game that sold double the amount than did PS3 [I]might be[I] because a "unknown" number now are having to actually purchase the game legit, and not get it by other free means. Or am I talking out my ass over here????????? j/k BTW, you guys as serious about your brands huh? I had Atari, Commodore 64, the original Nintendo, the N64, Sega Genesis, Sega DC, PS2, and now the PS3, and played on the PC aaaaaaaaaaa-long time ago when Wolfenstien and Doom where infants. I see all of us, as people who love to do one thing and thats game, who cares who sells more. Its like saying that one would prefer a blunt vs. bong, and which one would be better.

I was going to buy a 360 for the game room, but must admit all the failures has kept me away. Not saying I never will get one, just they will have to have better reliability before I lay my money down. Hell I still have my year one PS2, my son use's it, it's missing the door cover, but that's all that wrong.. still kicking. Original Nintendo is at the lake house, still kicking. The others where sold off, but I feel if I still had them they would work also. Buy a 360, and hope it last a year, sounds a little ridiculous to me, but if these parents keep buying their whinny kids a new one and fixing it when it breaks then so be it I guess.

If I don't have as valid of a point as the banning console's then my apologies for interrupting.

junehhan
12-15-2009, 11:31 AM
I understand the investment in games and having many/most of your friends using the 360, but at what point does principals overtake allowing MS to keep gouging? From what I have read, I personally would have already have reached the breaking point a long time ago. I guess everyone has different thresholds before they say "ENOUGH".

My biggest question is who are the people getting gouged? I have been too busy to make my rounds on the various gaming forums lately, but I remember that the ones who claim to be getting gouged the most were people who didn't even own an X360.

Maybe it is because I havn't had the need to buy any extra accessories for my X360. I remember even Nintendo back in the older days were filing lawsuits against 3rd party unauthorized manufacturers and a lot of it had to due with a lot of that stuff being used to hack the console.

I havn't needed to buy anything because the X360 was more or less a complete package out of the box. In my opinion, it was smart of Microsoft to force a proprietary HD setup in the X360 as it makes life even harder for hackers and pirates. Microsoft is predominantly a software company, and issues such as piracy are going to be more important for them.

PFC5
12-15-2009, 12:54 PM
My biggest question is who are the people getting gouged? I have been too busy to make my rounds on the various gaming forums lately, but I remember that the ones who claim to be getting gouged the most were people who didn't even own an X360.

Maybe it is because I havn't had the need to buy any extra accessories for my X360. I remember even Nintendo back in the older days were filing lawsuits against 3rd party unauthorized manufacturers and a lot of it had to due with a lot of that stuff being used to hack the console.

I havn't needed to buy anything because the X360 was more or less a complete package out of the box. In my opinion, it was smart of Microsoft to force a proprietary HD setup in the X360 as it makes life even harder for hackers and pirates. Microsoft is predominantly a software company, and issues such as piracy are going to be more important for them.

I think charging around 3x the money for a hard drive IS gouging. Ditto for the memory cards. I should have been more specific and not said all accessories. :o

railven
12-15-2009, 01:10 PM
My biggest question is who are the people getting gouged? I have been too busy to make my rounds on the various gaming forums lately, but I remember that the ones who claim to be getting gouged the most were people who didn't even own an X360.

Maybe it is because I havn't had the need to buy any extra accessories for my X360. I remember even Nintendo back in the older days were filing lawsuits against 3rd party unauthorized manufacturers and a lot of it had to due with a lot of that stuff being used to hack the console.

I havn't needed to buy anything because the X360 was more or less a complete package out of the box. In my opinion, it was smart of Microsoft to force a proprietary HD setup in the X360 as it makes life even harder for hackers and pirates. Microsoft is predominantly a software company, and issues such as piracy are going to be more important for them.

I've been gouged!
My close to launch 360 didn't have HDMI, had to buy a new unit.
Neither of my units have Wifi, and I didn't want to use a bridge, for USB only I had to get the official adapter - cost 4x-5x more than a standard G-rated USB dongle.
I had to buy a charging kit, I know - seems like everyone and their mothers has rechargeable batteries, but just about everything in my house (except for emergency stuff) uses rechargeable kits (properietary junk to be specific.)
I had to buy a memory card to transfer my save files (sucks, figured I could use any USB flash drive, use to work with an iPod till that got patched out.)
And on top of that I was expected to pay for the Gold subscription.

As for the proprietary HDD, that didn't stop the system from getting hacked. It took Microsoft a firmware lock out of modified drives from XBL, and even so that still won't curve piracy on the system. Any single player campaign game will be pirated.

The PS3 doesn't use a properietary hard drive and ti hasn't been hacked to play copied PS3 games yet. It can't read BD-ISOs off its own HDD to run in the Gaming OS either. And yet, they didn't use a proprietary drive for it.

It is just software on a drive with a plastic cradle. They should offer the user the software for free to install on any drive they wish or charge a fee for the software, but to inflate the price double, almost triple the going price is gouging. It is hardcore gouging!

junehhan
12-15-2009, 01:31 PM
You had to buy a new unit for HDMI? My X360 doesn't have HDMI and I survive somehow :P

I have seen HDMI X360's and there is absolutely no advantage I know of over the standard component cables I am still using. You didn't HAVE to buy a charging kit I bought one for convenience and am surprised how awesome it still works. I bought it on Nov 22nd, 2005 and it still holds 15-18 hours of charge before I have to recharge it. More than that on games that don't heavily use the vibrator feature.

Memory cards are pretty cheap, as I picked up one on Amazon to transfer my saved games when I decided to move to an Elite. I have since heard that there is a HDD transfer kit that I didn't know existed that Microsoft offers for free.

Gold subscription isn't a killer as it comes out to $5 a month. I don't know about you, but I can't even get an extra value meal at McD's for under $5 these days.

HDD's are a bit on the expensive side, but who knows what Microsoft was trying to do. Maybe they wanted to make money! For a guy who owns so many X360's, nobody forced you to buy them since you claim you are being gouged :P :eek: :) :thumbsup:

I've been gouged!
My close to launch 360 didn't have HDMI, had to buy a new unit.
Neither of my units have Wifi, and I didn't want to use a bridge, for USB only I had to get the official adapter - cost 4x-5x more than a standard G-rated USB dongle.
I had to buy a charging kit, I know - seems like everyone and their mothers has rechargeable batteries, but just about everything in my house (except for emergency stuff) uses rechargeable kits (properietary junk to be specific.)
I had to buy a memory card to transfer my save files (sucks, figured I could use any USB flash drive, use to work with an iPod till that got patched out.)
And on top of that I was expected to pay for the Gold subscription.

As for the proprietary HDD, that didn't stop the system from getting hacked. It took Microsoft a firmware lock out of modified drives from XBL, and even so that still won't curve piracy on the system. Any single player campaign game will be pirated.

The PS3 doesn't use a properietary hard drive and ti hasn't been hacked to play copied PS3 games yet. It can't read BD-ISOs off its own HDD to run in the Gaming OS either. And yet, they didn't use a proprietary drive for it.

It is just software on a drive with a plastic cradle. They should offer the user the software for free to install on any drive they wish or charge a fee for the software, but to inflate the price double, almost triple the going price is gouging. It is hardcore gouging!

PFC5
12-15-2009, 01:37 PM
You had to buy a new unit for HDMI? My X360 doesn't have HDMI and I survive somehow :P

I have seen HDMI X360's and there is absolutely no advantage I know of over the standard component cables I am still using. You didn't HAVE to buy a charging kit I bought one for convenience and am surprised how awesome it still works. I bought it on Nov 22nd, 2005 and it still holds 15-18 hours of charge before I have to recharge it. More than that on games that don't heavily use the vibrator feature.

Memory cards are pretty cheap, as I picked up one on Amazon to transfer my saved games when I decided to move to an Elite. I have since heard that there is a HDD transfer kit that I didn't know existed that Microsoft offers for free.

Gold subscription isn't a killer as it comes out to $5 a month. I don't know about you, but I can't even get an extra value meal at McD's for under $5 these days.

HDD's are a bit on the expensive side, but who knows what Microsoft was trying to do. Maybe they wanted to make money! For a guy who owns so many X360's, nobody forced you to buy them since you claim you are being gouged :P :eek: :) :thumbsup:

That has no bearing on whether he was gouged or not. I am just trying to figure out WHY so many people put up with getting gouged. Many of these people compalined so much about the cost of the PS3, but those items are much cheaper to buy on the PS3 now and you also save $50.00 per year and STILL get to play online.

railven
12-15-2009, 01:51 PM
You had to buy a new unit for HDMI? My X360 doesn't have HDMI and I survive somehow :P

I have seen HDMI X360's and there is absolutely no advantage I know of over the standard component cables I am still using. You didn't HAVE to buy a charging kit I bought one for convenience and am surprised how awesome it still works. I bought it on Nov 22nd, 2005 and it still holds 15-18 hours of charge before I have to recharge it. More than that on games that don't heavily use the vibrator feature.

Memory cards are pretty cheap, as I picked up one on Amazon to transfer my saved games when I decided to move to an Elite. I have since heard that there is a HDD transfer kit that I didn't know existed that Microsoft offers for free.

Gold subscription isn't a killer as it comes out to $5 a month. I don't know about you, but I can't even get an extra value meal at McD's for under $5 these days.

HDD's are a bit on the expensive side, but who knows what Microsoft was trying to do. Maybe they wanted to make money! For a guy who owns so many X360's, nobody forced you to buy them since you claim you are being gouged :P :eek: :) :thumbsup:

See, when you put things into one's own perspective, of course it stacks differently.

I'd prefer to use the 1080p feature on my TV with my consoles (damn you Wii) and well, I couldn't get it from the component. Plus after two failed drives, 4 RRoDs and probably another failed drive on it's way (note failed drives are only covered by the 1year part warranty, which didn't exist at launch) I bit on the Elite hoping it would resolve those issues (it didn't :( ).

If you play as many games as I do (or use to atleast when the unit was fresh) a charge kit (or some form or recharging) was neccessary. So, when I picked up a single charge unit for the 360 (a single one) it cost the same as the dual station for the Wii. The single pak for the 360 cost more than a single pak for the Wii. Why did it have to cost more if they both use 2xAA batteries?

Memory cards are cheap, but I got gouged because why not just let me use a USB thumb drive? The damn thing has USB ports. The Wii and PS3 let you use USB thumb drives, why not the 360? Nope, have to buy a proprietary USB thumb drive.
EDIT: Right now at Microcenter, for $5 more than the official 512mb memory card you can buy a 16GB USB thumb drive. Only $5 more for 32x more space. If that isn't gouging to you, I don't know what is.

HDD's aren't expensive. When you can drop $60 and pick up a 320GB, the $140 Microsoft was asking for the 120GB was INSANE! (And I never bought an HDD upgrade for those reasons, I just reasoned pay the difference and get a new console, new warranty, new controllers (that I can sell or add to my colllection) and a few games with a month of Gold on top of it, worked out almost the same in my crazy mind.)

Wait, now you're going to say no one forced me to buy anything? I know that. Does that some how change the price gouging? Does me buying the stuff I want for a product I own and using the only means possible some how resolve the gouging?

I just don't get people's logic. "Well you still bought it, STFU you aren't entitled to complain." And on the other foot "the only people I've heard about gouging don't even own one."

So who can complain? Obviously not those that don't own one and obviously not those that do own one. Sheesh.

junehhan
12-15-2009, 01:59 PM
That has no bearing on whether he was gouged or not. I am just trying to figure out WHY so many people put up with getting gouged. Many of these people compalined so much about the cost of the PS3, but those items are much cheaper to buy on the PS3 now and you also save $50.00 per year and STILL get to play online.

Who said they are getting gouged? I am not, and therefore I continue to play on only the X360. To be fair though, I already have a non-trivial amount of money spent on my game library so far. People are not dumb and make their own choices in life. If they feel they are being treated unfairly, they will move on to other options. Therefore, there is something else other than the purely observable things that are driving their decisions to buy an Xbox. Clearly these unobservable things are giving them greater utility than the disutility suffered from the supposed gouging.

junehhan
12-15-2009, 02:03 PM
See, when you put things into one's own perspective, of course it stacks differently.

I'd prefer to use the 1080p feature on my TV with my consoles (damn you Wii) and well, I couldn't get it from the component. Plus after two failed drives, 4 RRoDs and probably another failed drive on it's way (note failed drives are only covered by the 1year part warranty, which didn't exist at launch) I bit on the Elite hoping it would resolve those issues (it didn't :( ).

If you play as many games as I do (or use to atleast when the unit was fresh) a charge kit (or some form or recharging) was neccessary. So, when I picked up a single charge unit for the 360 (a single one) it cost the same as the dual station for the Wii. The single pak for the 360 cost more than a single pak for the Wii. Why did it have to cost more if they both use 2xAA batteries?

Memory cards are cheap, but I got gouged because why not just let me use a USB thumb drive? The damn thing has USB ports. The Wii and PS3 let you use USB thumb drives, why not the 360? Nope, have to buy a proprietary USB thumb drive.
EDIT: Right now at Microcenter, for $5 more than the official 512mb memory card you can buy a 32GB USB thumb drive. Only $5 more for 64x more space. If that isn't gouging to you, I don't know what is.

HDD's aren't expensive. When you can drop $60 and pick up a 320GB, the $140 Microsoft was asking for the 120GB was INSANE! (And I never bought an HDD upgrade for those reasons, I just reasoned pay the difference and get a new console, new warranty, new controllers (that I can sell or add to my colllection) and a few games with a month of Gold on top of it, worked out almost the same in my crazy mind.)

Wait, now you're going to say no one forced me to buy anything? I know that. Does that some how change the price gouging? Does me buying the stuff I want for a product I own and using the only means possible some how resolve the gouging?

I just don't get people's logic. "Well you still bought it, STFU you aren't entitled to complain." And on the other foot "the only people I've heard about gouging don't even own one."

So who can complain? Obviously not those that don't own one and obviously not those that do own one. Sheesh.

I'm just playing around with you. I understand what you are saying, I just found it funny and wanted to mess with you. Glow isn't his old self these days(he mellowed a LOT), and some of the old time pricks don't come to this forum anymore which I have to say has made things a bit more dull.

railven
12-15-2009, 02:05 PM
Who said they are getting gouged? I am not, and therefore I continue to play on only the X360. To be fair though, I already have a non-trivial amount of money spent on my game library so far. People are not dumb and make their own choices in life. If they feel they are being treated unfairly, they will move on to other options. Therefore, there is something else other than the purely observable things that are driving their decisions to buy an Xbox. Clearly these unobservable things are giving them greater utility than the disutility suffered from the supposed gouging.

That is the thing, you don't have other options. Unless by other options you mean buying a different console, which in thought is ludicrous to support.

What other options do you have for memory card units? For Hard Drives? For repair shops say if your disc drive died and you don't want to risk having your XBL banned?

What are your options?

railven
12-15-2009, 02:06 PM
I'm just playing around with you. I understand what you are saying, I just found it funny and wanted to mess with you. Glow isn't his old self these days(he mellowed a LOT), and some of the old time pricks don't come to this forum anymore which I have to say has made things a bit more dull.

Haha, my banter is often playful. Sometimes that doesn't come through in these walls of text I tend to post (I'm long winded.)

Glow is still himself, pick a fight with him about DLC or what developers should do. I remember that ruffled his feathers a few times before.

junehhan
12-15-2009, 02:07 PM
That is the thing, you don't have other options. Unless by other options you mean buying a different console, which in thought is ludicrous to support.

What other options do you have for memory card units? For Hard Drives? For repair shops say if your disc drive died and you don't want to risk having your XBL banned?

What are your options?

I dunno, maybe this? You'll have to wait for later for me to come up with an organized response as I havn't slept and need a nap. This is what some people claim Microsoft is doing them. Who knows, maybe that was their intention with the supposed gouging although I don't blame anyone for wanting to make money. After all, people are still buying X360's like crazy. The point being that maybe the people at Microsoft have determined that they don't need to sell anything for cheaper prices. Why lower your price when you arn't seeing a decline in demand for your product?


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PFC5
12-15-2009, 02:14 PM
What the HELL is DLC?

Mase
12-15-2009, 02:14 PM
That has no bearing on whether he was gouged or not. I am just trying to figure out WHY so many people put up with getting gouged. Many of these people compalined so much about the cost of the PS3, but those items are much cheaper to buy on the PS3 now and you also save $50.00 per year and STILL get to play online.

See, when you put things into one's own perspective, of course it stacks differently.

I'd prefer to use the 1080p feature on my TV with my consoles (damn you Wii) and well, I couldn't get it from the component. Plus after two failed drives, 4 RRoDs and probably another failed drive on it's way (note failed drives are only covered by the 1year part warranty, which didn't exist at launch) I bit on the Elite hoping it would resolve those issues (it didn't :( ).

If you play as many games as I do (or use to atleast when the unit was fresh) a charge kit (or some form or recharging) was neccessary. So, when I picked up a single charge unit for the 360 (a single one) it cost the same as the dual station for the Wii. The single pak for the 360 cost more than a single pak for the Wii. Why did it have to cost more if they both use 2xAA batteries?

Memory cards are cheap, but I got gouged because why not just let me use a USB thumb drive? The damn thing has USB ports. The Wii and PS3 let you use USB thumb drives, why not the 360? Nope, have to buy a proprietary USB thumb drive.
EDIT: Right now at Microcenter, for $5 more than the official 512mb memory card you can buy a 16GB USB thumb drive. Only $5 more for 32x more space. If that isn't gouging to you, I don't know what is.

HDD's aren't expensive. When you can drop $60 and pick up a 320GB, the $140 Microsoft was asking for the 120GB was INSANE! (And I never bought an HDD upgrade for those reasons, I just reasoned pay the difference and get a new console, new warranty, new controllers (that I can sell or add to my colllection) and a few games with a month of Gold on top of it, worked out almost the same in my crazy mind.)

Wait, now you're going to say no one forced me to buy anything? I know that. Does that some how change the price gouging? Does me buying the stuff I want for a product I own and using the only means possible some how resolve the gouging?

I just don't get people's logic. "Well you still bought it, STFU you aren't entitled to complain." And on the other foot "the only people I've heard about gouging don't even own one."

So who can complain? Obviously not those that don't own one and obviously not those that do own one. Sheesh.
Gouging is a very dramatic way of putting it, usually gouging is used when someone is selling a necessity for above market value where there is no alternative.. Like the many gas crisis's we have had in the past, but a game console is not a necessity, so how can one gouge on something that is not a necessity?

You can have your opinion all you want, but its hard to take one seriously about cries of price gouging when that person is willing to spend $600 for a single GPU. No one is saying you cant voice your opinion on a product you own or dont own.

Also for someone who has such disdain for the 360, you sure keep putting yourself into the same situation. Its like feeling sorry for a kid falling into a lions den at the zoo, sure you feel sorry the first time, but what if he keeps on doing it?

You and you alone are putting yourself into that situation, so its like PFC5 said, you would have to be dumb to keep putting up with the shoddy hardware and price gouging.. I am paraphrasing.

railven
12-15-2009, 02:25 PM
Gouging is a very dramatic way of putting it, usually gouging is used when someone is selling a necessity for above market value where there is no alternative.. Like the many gas crisis's we have had in the past, but a game console is not a necessity, so how can one gouge on something that is not a necessity?

Look up the word gouge - a simple use, overcharge. You're reasoning to dismiss it's use as a descriptor is weak.

You can have your opinion all you want, but its hard to take one seriously about cries of price gouging when that person is willing to spend $600 for a single GPU. No one is saying you cant voice your opinion on a product you own or dont own.

Wait, you are trying to compare two different sectors and markets completely. When I buy something, I try to buy within the means of the market. The GTX 295 is OVERPRICED at the time of its launch. And for its lack unrealistic performance gains versus its price increase, I steered clear of it. That fact that you try to devalue my opinion because of my life stlye is without a doubt assinine. It is again saying I can't complain because I went ahead and about it anyways.

The 360 HDD's and Memory card units ARE OVER PRICED! Just ask anyone who at one point or another needed to upgrade or buy one. If you are going to say they aren't over priced you got your hand too deep in Cygnus' pockets man!

Also for someone who has such disdain for the 360, you sure keep putting yourself into the same situation. Its like feeling sorry for a kid falling into a lions den at the zoo, sure you feel sorry the first time, but what if he keeps on doing it?

What disdain? Am I suppose to be glad, happy, or thankful my multiple units have failed me multiple times because of multiple reasons? I'm not that kind of a fanboy. I've been a gamer since I was 5, started collecting consoles since I was old enough to earn a paycheck, and try to continue my hobby as I wish. Yet, my complains and woes over a product that has issues are dismissable? Why? because they aren't complacent to your views and opinions?

You and you alone are putting yourself into that situation, so its like PFC5 said, you would have to be dumb to keep putting up with the shoddy hardware and price gouging.. I am paraphrasing.

Wait, you cheerlead the 360 as the best unit, and here I am a person who buys them, buys their software, their accessories, and some how I'm a villain? Because I have a negative opinion about the price, the performance, and in the end the over all end product?

OMG! This is bizzaro world!

Guys, don't post anything negative about something you own, because, basically, you have no right to complain since you bought it. And if you continue to support said product you are only making your opinion less worth anything.

Gotcha.

Pinoy
12-15-2009, 02:25 PM
Gold subscription isn't a killer as it comes out to $5 a month. I don't know about you, but I can't even get an extra value meal at McD's for under $5 these days.


Sure, $5 a month isn't a lot... but it's still gouging. No other platform has charged an annual fee to be able to play online, none. Every other platform offers a fairly similar service at none of the price.

The point being that maybe the people at Microsoft have determined that they don't need to sell anything for cheaper prices. Why lower your price when you arn't seeing a decline in demand for your product?

It's the MS game plan. Sell the console like crazy and get the market share, it's all about getting it into people's homes. After that they will pay ridiculous prices for accessories, they will pay ridiculous fee's for usage.

It's a sweet game plan and it's been working (obviously) Gotta give it to MS for that.

railven
12-15-2009, 02:31 PM
I dunno, maybe this? You'll have to wait for later for me to come up with an organized response as I havn't slept and need a nap. This is what some people claim Microsoft is doing them. Who knows, maybe that was their intention with the supposed gouging although I don't blame anyone for wanting to make money. After all, people are still buying X360's like crazy. The point being that maybe the people at Microsoft have determined that they don't need to sell anything for cheaper prices. Why lower your price when you arn't seeing a decline in demand for your product?

I don't blame any corporation for wanting to make money. Why I support them in the first place. You know, if I buy their products, they will sustain themselves and continue to make said products.

But does that dissolve any price gouging? No. I own a PSP, I'm locked into their proprietary memory card units too. I'm bitch about that, however, it is still cheaper in GBs per dollar than the MS ones.


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Haha nice. In the words of Homer J Simpson "Oh real mature Lenny." haha.

Mase
12-15-2009, 02:45 PM
Look up the word gouge - a simple use, overcharge. You're reasoning to dismiss it's use as a descriptor is weak.



Wait, you are trying to compare two different sectors and markets completely. When I buy something, I try to buy within the means of the market. The GTX 295 is OVERPRICED at the time of its launch. And for its lack unrealistic performance gains versus its price increase, I steered clear of it. That fact that you try to devalue my opinion because of my life stlye is without a doubt assinine. It is again saying I can't complain because I went ahead and about it anyways.

The 360 HDD's and Memory card units ARE OVER PRICED! Just ask anyone who at one point or another needed to upgrade or buy one. If you are going to say they aren't over priced you got your hand too deep in Cygnus' pockets man!



What disdain? Am I suppose to be glad, happy, or thankful my multiple units have failed me multiple times because of multiple reasons? I'm not that kind of a fanboy. I've been a gamer since I was 5, started collecting consoles since I was old enough to earn a paycheck, and try to continue my hobby as I wish. Yet, my complains and woes over a product that has issues are dismissable? Why? because they aren't complacent to your views and opinions?



Wait, you cheerlead the 360 as the best unit, and here I am a person who buys them, buys their software, their accessories, and some how I'm a villain? Because I have a negative opinion about the price, the performance, and in the end the over all end product?

OMG! This is bizzaro world!

Guys, don't post anything negative about something you own, because, basically, you have no right to complain since you bought it. And if you continue to support said product you are only making your opinion less worth anything.

Gotcha.

Its the same thing every time, you take things out of context to use them to your advantage.. I have gone on record in saying the PS3 is the best made console I have ever owned and does more than any console I have ever owned.. I have also gone on to say that with its upswing this past year it will over take the 360 in the US very soon. I dont cheerlead a console, I just dont go around crying about its mis haps in every thread.. I was a repeat buyer of the PS2 (5-6 of them) but how can I blame Sony for such a shitty dvd drive when I kept buying them...

What is assinine is someone who is willing to bend over and repeatedly take it up the ass for a console they seem to hate..

If I had that much of a problem with a console where I have to bring up its down falls or percieved issues at every chance I got, I would not own said console anymore... I guess complaining is the true American way, guess what your cries of gouging, yet you still buy only justify Microsofts reasons for pricing.. Instead of complaining, do something about it, stop buying over priced peripherals, none of these accesories are a necessity. Yet you continue to make excuses for them as if they were a necessity....

railven
12-15-2009, 02:59 PM
Its the same thing every time, you take things out of context to use them to your advantage.. I have gone on record in saying the PS3 is the best made console I have ever owned and does more than any console I have ever owned.. I have also gone on to say that with its upswing this past year it will over take the 360 in the US very soon. I dont cheerlead a console, I just dont go around crying about its mis haps in every thread.. I was a repeat buyer of the PS2 (5-6 of them) but how can I blame Sony for such a shitty dvd drive when I kept buying them...

Regardless of your optimistic opinon of the PS3's possible future, don't be surprised where other posters here peg you.

Just as I don't act surprised when they peg me as a Ps3 fanboy and 360 hater (even though I've pointed pros and cons on both.)

What is assinine is someone who is willing to bend over and repeatedly take it up the ass for a console they seem to hate..

Again, you don't understand my hobby and interest in COLLECTING consoles. The only repeat offenders in my bunch are the ones I actually use. Those I buy in SE/LE don't get touched, they remain in their box for me to gawk at and for my GF to complain about "wasted money." Either way that is my hobby and if that is what you want to mount your arguement against me, just note it is weak.

If I had that much of a problem with a console where I have to bring up its down falls or percieved issues at every chance I got, I would not own said console anymore... I guess complaining is the true American way, guess what your cries of gouging, yet you still buy only justify Microsofts reasons for pricing.. Instead of complaining, do something about it, stop buying over priced peripherals, none of these accesories are a necessity. Yet you continue to make excuses for them as if they were a necessity....

Every chance I got? That is all we do on these forums. Is beat dead horses with sticks.

You are such a one sided person. Of course none of these are neccessities, but some, for me, are.

Buy rechargeable batteries, buy a charge kit, or keep buying disposable battiers - those are my options to continue to use wireless on 360 and Wii. I chose the charging kits, wait, why does the 360 verson cost almost twice the price of the Wii version when they are both essentially 2xAA battery packs?

You make it seem we as consumers have no right to complain. Why? Because you don't like what you hear? because what you hear is true? What is it about my opinions on a product that aggrevate you to the point of trying to shut me up? I've never come here and lied or spread FUD (as you've done so before about a certain ex-Tecmo developer.)

I enjoy my consoles, sorry I didn't experience the the DRE issues on the PS2. My Xbox1 was a freaking rock. My PS2 was another rock. So was my Gamecube. I came into this gen expecting the same. PS3/Wii still ticking, 360 damn I've gone through doube digits (and this doesn't include any of my SE/LE) yet, Railven can't complain - he has no right. He keeps buying that product, so servers him right.

Nice.

kamspy
12-15-2009, 03:00 PM
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj186/kamspy/t-macgrrrr.gif

PFC5
12-15-2009, 03:01 PM
That is WHY I will not buy a 360. I do not want to reward gouging or poor product builds with my money. ;)

But that is just me and how I think.

Pinoy
12-15-2009, 03:09 PM
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj186/kamspy/t-macgrrrr.gif
I was waiting for his head to explode :lol:
That is WHY I will not buy a 360. I do not want to reward gouging or poor product builds with my money. ;)

But that is just me and how I think.

You're not the only one :)

railven
12-15-2009, 03:18 PM
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj186/kamspy/t-macgrrrr.gif

I was waiting for his head to explode :lol:

I can't see the image :( Photobucket is blocked at my job.

J-Rod
12-15-2009, 03:41 PM
What the HELL is DLC?

Down Load Content i.e. map packs, more cars, etc. etc.

Cygnus
12-15-2009, 04:07 PM
People, can we all just get alooong? :what::angel Since I am the Bringer of Balance, let me chime in. Sure MS prices are too high for add ons. That is the reason why I have not bought any. I use rechargeable AA batts and console is connected directly to router. BTW, paid DLC is the biggest gouge this gen IMHO… :2cents

Mase
12-15-2009, 04:21 PM
Regardless of your optimistic opinon of the PS3's possible future, don't be surprised where other posters here peg you.

Just as I don't act surprised when they peg me as a Ps3 fanboy and 360 hater (even though I've pointed pros and cons on both.)



Again, you don't understand my hobby and interest in COLLECTING consoles. The only repeat offenders in my bunch are the ones I actually use. Those I buy in SE/LE don't get touched, they remain in their box for me to gawk at and for my GF to complain about "wasted money." Either way that is my hobby and if that is what you want to mount your arguement against me, just note it is weak.



Every chance I got? That is all we do on these forums. Is beat dead horses with sticks.

You are such a one sided person. Of course none of these are neccessities, but some, for me, are.

Buy rechargeable batteries, buy a charge kit, or keep buying disposable battiers - those are my options to continue to use wireless on 360 and Wii. I chose the charging kits, wait, why does the 360 verson cost almost twice the price of the Wii version when they are both essentially 2xAA battery packs?

You make it seem we as consumers have no right to complain. Why? Because you don't like what you hear? because what you hear is true? What is it about my opinions on a product that aggrevate you to the point of trying to shut me up? I've never come here and lied or spread FUD (as you've done so before about a certain ex-Tecmo developer.)

I enjoy my consoles, sorry I didn't experience the the DRE issues on the PS2. My Xbox1 was a freaking rock. My PS2 was another rock. So was my Gamecube. I came into this gen expecting the same. PS3/Wii still ticking, 360 damn I've gone through doube digits (and this doesn't include any of my SE/LE) yet, Railven can't complain - he has no right. He keeps buying that product, so servers him right.

Nice.
Again you look past my arguments, I never said you cant complain, in fact I have said many times that is our right as consumers.. But your problems stem from you continually gouging yourself. You have your opinion on that matter and I have my own, yet yours is somehow more valid than mine... :confused:

You seem to think I have said that they are not price gouging, or that they are not making shoddy hardware.. I know they are and I know the price is high for officially licensed accesories. I also know that none are essential for playing video games... I know the facts and it does not aggrevate me in the least, nor do your posts, insight and well written repsonses are always welcomed here and you provide us with that in spades.. If you take what I type to heart than that is on you...

My argument is not about your hobby of collectibles, its about you complaing about the non collectibles that keep dying on you. Yet you rush in and give more money to Microsoft, which in turn justifies their hardware and their prices.. That does not mean you can not complain, it just means that when you do, your posts will carry less weight than the consumer who decides to stop justifying the shoddy hardware and price gouging.. Argue that logic all you want, but put a survey up and the vast majority will agree... Collectibles are one thing, but you are saying you have had double digit 360's (not counting collectibles). Why? Its one thing to collect and its another to put yourself in the posistion to get gouged.



I know where people pegg me, I could care less, its boring when everyone on this forum is a PS3 fan, I am as well but you will see me defend the 360 more often than not to the meriad of fanboy comments. Some people dislike the console but yet they have never played or own one, just anecdotes from around the web. That is where I come in. Also I know I spread fud but never on purpose and I will acknowledge it and apologize for incorrect information if need be. This is our forum and a place for information and our bickering, I have zero problem with someone calling me out if I have provided false or innacuarte information. Just ask the many people who have proved me wrong here :o





That is WHY I will not buy a 360. I do not want to reward gouging or poor product builds with my money. ;)

But that is just me and how I think.

This is what I am talking about, put your money where your mouth is..

Pinoy
12-15-2009, 04:29 PM
People, can we all just get alooong? :what::angel Since I am the Bringer of Balance, let me chime in. Sure MS prices are too high for add ons. That is the reason why I have not bought any. I use rechargeable AA batts and console is connected directly to router. BTW, paid DLC is the biggest gouge this gen IMHO… :2cents

Heheh, sure why not :angel

Cygnus you yourself said you are not a heavy gamer anymore, a lot of these guys are though. If you did use your console daily (or just a lot) don't you think you'd run through batteries more often? I mean sure you can buy a decent set of rechargeables, but why couldn't MS/Ninty do it the right way and put a decent rechargeable battery in there in the first place? It's not like they are charging a whole lot less for their controllers.

My PS3 is also directly wired to the router despite it having built in wifi. However I'm glad it has the wifi built in. Why? Because Sony saw fit to include a nifty remote connect feature with the PSP (which I do use) I'd be pissed as hell if they gave us the remote play option and did not include wifi in the PS3 corraling me to buy an overpriced adapter.

And to DLC: I don't mind paying for content *if* it's worth it's price, after all it is why we bought these systems in the first place right?

But yeah we do all need to get along, we've all decided which system(s) are right for us. It's not like we're going to change anybodies mind here to 'defect' :lol:

Cygnus
12-15-2009, 04:58 PM
Cygnus you yourself said you are not a heavy gamer anymore, a lot of these guys are though.

I'd like to play more but I don't have the time... :(

If you did use your console daily (or just a lot) don't you think you'd run through batteries more often? I mean sure you can buy a decent set of rechargeables, but why couldn't MS/Ninty do it the right way

No, I rather have open standards rechargeable batts instead of the proprietary ones. Rechargeable AA batts are best because you have competition and the tech is constantly improving. The ones I use Panasonic enloop (or something) lasts months on a single charge. I really dislike that PS3 batts can not be replaced (at least the earlier models). Thus once the battery goes bad on PS3, you have to buy a new controller or ship it back to sony I think.

I'd be pissed as hell if they gave us the remote play option and did not include wifi in the PS3 corraling me to buy an overpriced adapter.

Having wifi built in was never a factor for me as I already have a wireless switch from the PS2 days. But now that I also stream movies, I prefer the console to be wired...

And to DLC: I don't mind paying for content *if* it's worth it's price, after all it is why we bought these systems in the first place right?

I did not buy a game in order to keep having to shell out more ca$h for DLC… It seems as if devs/pubs plan DLC now...announcing it weeks and months before the game is launched. I can't believe ppl are not outraged by that... :what:

But yeah we do all need to get along, we've all decided which system(s) are right for us. It's not like we're going to change anybodies mind here to 'defect' :lol:

Yep, its all fun and games :cool: Speaking of gouging, Sony has been doing just that with PS3's price only until recently ;)

MikeRox
12-15-2009, 05:02 PM
You had to buy a new unit for HDMI? My X360 doesn't have HDMI and I survive somehow :P

Component doesn't look as good as HDMI (given the emphasis made on graphics etc. I don't want to compromise on something like that) however, there is NO improvement over using a VGA adapter so it's a shame quite a few games had major v-synch issues via VGA earlier in the consoles life, as that was my push onto an Elite, that and the bigger HDD which it worked out cheaper to buy with the console in a bundle with games, than it did to buy seperately for my existing non HDMI Xbox.

railven
12-15-2009, 05:06 PM
Again you look past my arguments, I never said you cant complain, in fact I have said many times that is our right as consumers.. But your problems stem from you continually gouging yourself. You have your opinion on that matter and I have my own, yet yours is somehow more valid than mine... :confused:

You seem to think I have said that they are not price gouging, or that they are not making shoddy hardware.. I know they are and I know the price is high for officially licensed accesories. I also know that none are essential for playing video games... I know the facts and it does not aggrevate me in the least, nor do your posts, insight and well written repsonses are always welcomed here and you provide us with that in spades.. If you take what I type to heart than that is on you...

And sometimes I feel you look pass or omit your own arguments. You tried to downplay the usage of "gouge" as a word exclusively used for necessities.

In another post, because I always buy 1st party you pretty much said I damned myself because I buy first party, or I don't use "work arounds."

I know about work arounds, but that isn't my intention on a simple subject as hardware alternatives.

It reminds me of the Format War at times, and what people called apologizers.

It's like "they don't need to give you this, or offer you that, get it on your own" kinda a thing.

No, I paid good money for my product, and I want to use my product with in the means of its intentional use with the support of the manufacturers. However, I'm aware within those means 1st party products will carry a premium, but holy crap Batman when the premium is in excess to 2-3x the current market cost for said product, I got to raise a red flag. I got no other alternative, so what can I do?

I don't have a router in the living room, I haven't drilled holes into the walls (yet) and I don't want to throw wires through the windows. I don't like having wires every where (damn you Wii/360 PSU bricks) and that is just me. So to satisfy my own needs, I accept the extra in cost I have to pay, but that doesn't mean I'll accept it quietly.

My argument is not about your hobby of collectibles, its about you complaing about the non collectibles that keep dying on you. Yet you rush in and give more money to Microsoft, which in turn justifies their hardware and their prices.. That does not mean you can not complain, it just means that when you do, your posts will carry less weight than the consumer who decides to stop justifying the shoddy hardware and price gouging.. Argue that logic all you want, but put a survey up and the vast majority will agree... Collectibles are one thing, but you are saying you have had double digit 360's (not counting collectibles). Why? Its one thing to collect and its another to put yourself in the posistion to get gouged.

Mase, when your MP3 player breaks, do you not pay to fix it or replace it? When your computer breaks, do you not have it fixed or replace what is wrong?

I've only bought three non-SE/LE units:
A close-to-launch Pro
A launch Elite
a launch Jasper

Each upgrade was more than just a "well this one keeps breaking let me get that one" decision. I got the Elite because I prefer black (Damn you Wii) in my entertainment center, also it has HDMI (paid a shit load for a TV I want to use all its stupid options) and the extra kicker was "well they fixed the RRoD issue, right?" They didn't. Oh well, I still got a kick ass black Elite...until the drive breaks. RRoD don't cover that. I can do as some less then honest people, wrap it in a towel and let it RRoD, or approach the situation as a "good" consumer. Microsoft charges me, I get it back, it works, RRoD. OMG!

So, I'm at the end of my wits with the RRoDs, hey, Jasper can remedy that. Woots! I buy one last console for the intention of using it, and it E-74s on me. Okay. I'm done. As far as I know, this device is without a doubt in my mind a total piece of trash. And I won't be buying a Valhalla unit unless it is either free or it is a gift.

What is your solution? Give up on the 360 entirely as a product I wish to own and partake in gaming with select friends who only have a 360? I don't have a gold account, but I play online (thanks to my brother or cousin, depending who isn't online at the moment.)

On a side note, if the Wii or PS3 broke as much as the 360 (or at that any of my other purchases) trust me, I'd be bashing the hell out of them while still saying "when it works, it works great" kind of thing.

MikeRox
12-15-2009, 05:06 PM
That is WHY I will not buy a 360. I do not want to reward gouging or poor product builds with my money. ;)

But that is just me and how I think.

But it means you never get to sample the delights of Dead Rising! God I wish I didn't want to play so many different games. In reality, I could easily live with just the PS3 OR 360 and a Wii this gen.

Mase
12-15-2009, 05:10 PM
I did not buy a game in order to keep having to shell out more ca$h for DLC… It seems as if devs/pubs plan DLC now...announcing it weeks and months before the game is launched. I can't believe ppl are not outraged by that... :what:


Yep, its all fun and games :cool: Speaking of gouging, Sony has been doing just that with PS3's price only until recently ;)

I enjoy good DLC, as last gen when there was a great game, I hated when I knew I was getting to the end of it. I knew as soon as I finished it, that was it, the adventure was over and I would have to wait a few years for a sequel... Now I can experience and enjoy the game even more, like Fallout 3, I threw 80 hours into one playthrough with no DLC but after I finished it I wanted more.. Luckily Bethesda gave us quite a few batches of DLC that were all quality (some more than others)..

Also while Sony's price was high, imo it was worth it, it seriously does everything and for a media whore like myself it has helped streamline all of my media into my home theater.. I am listening to music on it right now and plan to watch a BD later, games are just a bonus for the PS3.

MikeRox
12-15-2009, 05:16 PM
Have to say the PS3 is the most used system in my house now though I plan giving the Xbox 360 a good dust down as I've got Borderlands, Mirror's Edge, Prince of Persia and Ace Combat 6 to sink teeth into on it now. Roll on the holidays!

I love well done DLC, as long as it's not blatantly obvious it was made to be part of the original game then cut out to be charged for I think it is a great option.

For games such as Singstar and Rockband it also makes far more sense than disc based expansion packs, I'd rather pay a little bit more per track and get tracks I want, than shell out less per track, but get a disc with 10 tracks I want and 15-20 I don't.

junehhan
12-15-2009, 05:24 PM
Component doesn't look as good as HDMI (given the emphasis made on graphics etc. I don't want to compromise on something like that) however, there is NO improvement over using a VGA adapter so it's a shame quite a few games had major v-synch issues via VGA earlier in the consoles life, as that was my push onto an Elite, that and the bigger HDD which it worked out cheaper to buy with the console in a bundle with games, than it did to buy seperately for my existing non HDMI Xbox.

I've seen the comparisons, and a good set of component cables offer just as good of a picture as HDMI does. I remember launch day X360's shipped with very good component cables, which are the ones i'm still using. A buddy of mine has his hooked up via HDMI and there is no noticeable difference. There was a comparison done a while back when the first HDMI X360's hit the market that some gaming site did, and they were unable to find any difference in picture quality.

Back when I also had a HD-DVD add-on for the X360, the only difference I could find between the X360 and my Toshiba HD-A1 was sound quality. I tried numerous HD-DVD's including King Kong, Phantom of the Opera, and was unable to see any difference in picture quality. Sound was a different story, and that difference should have been there considering the high end hardware in the HD-A1, along with the fact that I was using analogue output for it versus an optical spdif connector for the X360 add-on drive.

Monsters cables were used for all connections. :P

Mase
12-15-2009, 05:41 PM
And sometimes I feel you look pass or omit your own arguments. You tried to downplay the usage of "gouge" as a word exclusively used for necessities.

In another post, because I always buy 1st party you pretty much said I damned myself because I buy first party, or I don't use "work arounds."

I know about work arounds, but that isn't my intention on a simple subject as hardware alternatives.

Rail, thats just me, I am all over the place but I brought up the definition as I just look at how the word is used. I still feel gouged is a strong word in this context, more often than not people use the word for somethinn they are forced to buy because there is no alternative.. I dont feel any of this is forced, wifi is ridiculously priced I agree. I also know there are ethernet wall adapters that work wonderfully, there is an alternative, its just your not willing to go that route..

Linksys wireless adapters are available and much cheaper and will work the exact same way, yet you choose to go the more expensive route. I know you said you buy only first party products and you even acknowledge the price difference. Those that I have mentioned are not workarounds, they are sold by first rate mfgs.. This does not mean you can not complain about it Railven, vent all you want man, but as I have said before your frustration is not caused by Microsoft, it is caused by you..



Mase, when your MP3 player breaks, do you not pay to fix it or replace it? When your computer breaks, do you not have it fixed or replace what is wrong?

If its out of warranty and it will cost me money, I will replace it, but not with the same model or from the same manufacture. This analogy does not work just because while they all have different features, they still function the same.. An MP3 player will play music and some do video, others will add features to enhance that, but they all do the same thing at their core.. Consoles do not, exclusives throw that out the window.. MP3 players do not have exclusive music that an iPod can play but the Zune can not..


I've only bought three non-SE/LE units:
A close-to-launch Pro
A launch Elite
a launch Jasper

Each upgrade was more than just a "well this one keeps breaking let me get that one" decision. I got the Elite because I prefer black (Damn you Wii) in my entertainment center, also it has HDMI (paid a shit load for a TV I want to use all its stupid options) and the extra kicker was "well they fixed the RRoD issue, right?" They didn't. Oh well, I still got a kick ass black Elite...until the drive breaks. RRoD don't cover that. I can do as some less then honest people, wrap it in a towel and let it RRoD, or approach the situation as a "good" consumer. Microsoft charges me, I get it back, it works, RRoD. OMG!

So, I'm at the end of my wits with the RRoDs, hey, Jasper can remedy that. Woots! I buy one last console for the intention of using it, and it E-74s on me. Okay. I'm done. As far as I know, this device is without a doubt in my mind a total piece of trash. And I won't be buying a Valhalla unit unless it is either free or it is a gift.



You have said that they have broke multiple times in the double digits.. Which sucks man, I hate to hear that happen to anyone, let alone a hardcore gamer. But at what point does your rebuying of shoddy hardware only justify the very things you vent about? Sometimes I feel extremely lucky as I have not had to deal with RROD and coffins in the mail. I upgraded to an elite before my launch died, I dont know if its dead or not but it sounded like it was a jet plane.. I dont argue the fact that Microsoft came into this gen ass backwards in regard to the console itself. How can you give us a solid machine with a built in HDD last gen and than turn around and give us a RROD monster with no HDD?

One of the things Micorsoft did do right was Live and all of the core features that were there from launch. Sony made a big mistake there and it turned me off to PS3 gaming (pre 2009)because of this..



What is your solution? Give up on the 360 entirely as a product I wish to own and partake in gaming with select friends who only have a 360? I don't have a gold account, but I play online (thanks to my brother or cousin, depending who isn't online at the moment.)

On a side note, if the Wii or PS3 broke as much as the 360 (or at that any of my other purchases) trust me, I'd be bashing the hell out of them while still saying "when it works, it works great" kind of thing.

I cant make decisions for you, but if I were in your shoes I dont think I could continue to support a console that has failed on me that many times, its the principle of the matter.. In fact after my 5th or 6th PS2 I pretty much gamed exclusively on the Xbox, it gave me a solid dvd drive and built in HDD for game saves and a real online MP feature...

MikeRox
12-15-2009, 06:39 PM
I've seen the comparisons, and a good set of component cables offer just as good of a picture as HDMI does. I remember launch day X360's shipped with very good component cables, which are the ones i'm still using. A buddy of mine has his hooked up via HDMI and there is no noticeable difference. There was a comparison done a while back when the first HDMI X360's hit the market that some gaming site did, and they were unable to find any difference in picture quality.

Back when I also had a HD-DVD add-on for the X360, the only difference I could find between the X360 and my Toshiba HD-A1 was sound quality. I tried numerous HD-DVD's including King Kong, Phantom of the Opera, and was unable to see any difference in picture quality. Sound was a different story, and that difference should have been there considering the high end hardware in the HD-A1, along with the fact that I was using analogue output for it versus an optical spdif connector for the X360 add-on drive.

Monsters cables were used for all connections. :P

Component quality also varies greatly from TV to TV. The Samsung's everybody initially seemingly (in the UK at least) bought for Xbox 360 gaming offered very poor component images. On my Bravia, Component (the ones included with the original 360s, the official Wii Component cable, premium official Nintendo GameCube Component cable and cheapy PS2 component cables) generally look duller than HDMI and VGA output equipment (including the DC in VGA) even having meddled around with the calibrations.

It could be my display, but my experience (on more than just my display) is that component's image quality isn't as good as that offered by RGB SCART (for 480i sources), VGA or HDMI. Component feels like the equivalent of S-Video before HD came into the equasion. Better than the basic option, but lacking the colour depth and clarity of alternatives.

junehhan
12-15-2009, 08:58 PM
Component quality also varies greatly from TV to TV. The Samsung's everybody initially seemingly (in the UK at least) bought for Xbox 360 gaming offered very poor component images. On my Bravia, Component (the ones included with the original 360s, the official Wii Component cable, premium official Nintendo GameCube Component cable and cheapy PS2 component cables) generally look duller than HDMI and VGA output equipment (including the DC in VGA) even having meddled around with the calibrations.

It could be my display, but my experience (on more than just my display) is that component's image quality isn't as good as that offered by RGB SCART (for 480i sources), VGA or HDMI. Component feels like the equivalent of S-Video before HD came into the equasion. Better than the basic option, but lacking the colour depth and clarity of alternatives.

I have a Samsung that I happened to buy on Nov 22, 2005 when I bought my launch day X360. I have honestly been impressed with it and have not been able to see this picture quality difference. I have seen games at someone else's house with HDMI on a larger Samsung LCD and it looked exactly the same. As I said before, i've compared the quality of HD-DVD's playing on my HD-A1 using HDMI, and on the old X360 HD-DVD drive using component and the picture quality looked exactly the same when comparing different movies.

I guess I am just not convinced that HDMI is a better than component. I think it was more or less pushed because a digital format offers more control, and it simplifies things into one single cable that does both video and audio. I am not saying that there isn't a difference, but I am saying that I have been unable to see one which correlates with a few comparisons that were initially done a while ago.

Cygnus
12-16-2009, 12:50 AM
Back to NPD analysis...

Analysis: Xbox 360 Software Leads as Nintendo Falters

[Gamasutra analyst Matt Matthews looks the changing U.S. retal game landscape as part of our November NPD analysis, finding that Xbox 360 software is surging into the sales gap left by a declining Nintendo market.]

Amazing Wii growth drove much of the surge in software sales through the end of 2008. Some of the year-on-year decline in 2009 must be attributed to the failure of Nintendo's platform to repeat that performance.

According to Michael Pachter, an industry analyst for Wedbush Securities, Wii software revenue in November 2009 declined 18 percent from the same time in 2008. The only systems to see more dramatic decreases were Sony's PlayStation 2 and PlayStation Portable (PSP), which were down 69 percent and 21 percent, respectively.

While that certainly paints a dire picture for Sony's decade-old system and its star-crossed handheld, we find it especially troubling that the industry-leading console saw its software sales fall so far.

It is possible, although unlikely, that Wii software unit sales remained roughly the same from November 2008 to 2009. Given that software prices have, on average, declined over the past year, we suspect that there was a modest decline in Wii software unit sales, between 10-15 percent.

Unfortunately for Nintendo, software sales for its Nintendo DS also fell in November. As a result, Nintendo's total share of the software market declined significantly.

According to data released by Microsoft and comments made by analysts, the following picture of the software market in November emerges. As the figure below shows, Nintendo's two key platforms – the Wii and DS – claimed nearly 47 percent of all software dollars in November 2008.

http://www.gamasutra.com/db_area/images/feature/4214/nov-08-est-sw-dist.png

The share we can attribute to the Xbox 360 amounts to 28%. Sony accounts for exactly one quarter of the software revenue with its three platforms: PlayStation 3, PlayStation 2, and PSP.

After 12 months, the picture has shifted dramatically. As the following figure shows, software revenue from the Wii now accounts for under 30% of the market. Combined with the share from DS software, Nintendo now holds only around 40% of the market – a drop of 7 points from the previous year.

http://www.gamasutra.com/db_area/images/feature/4214/nov-09-est-sw-dist.png

Software performance for the PlayStation 3 has improved throughout the year, and it was one of the two platforms (along with the Xbox 360) to show year-over-year growth in November. Unfortunately for Sony, revenue from PlayStation 2 software has nearly collapsed. We now estimate that Sony's total share of the market contracted slightly to around 23% in November of 2009.

Microsoft's Xbox 360 has stepped into the gap left by its competitors and increased its share of the November software market almost 10 points, from 28% in 2008 to 37% in 2009.

In raw dollar terms, that's an increase of over $100 million. Given that the Xbox 360 version of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 brought in at least $260 milllion by our estimates, all of the growth of Microsoft's software revenue can be attributed to its commitment to making the Xbox 360 the platform most associated with the best-selling game of the year.

MikeRox
12-16-2009, 02:59 AM
Thats it Cyg, use a single massive selling title to drive the message that the 360 is now king :p

Nintendo are DOOOOOOOOMED! :D

Sadly these charts are not representitive of the gaming market due to the spike that MW2 has caused.

kamspy
12-16-2009, 04:28 AM
zomg pie charts

MikeRox
12-16-2009, 04:40 AM
I like pie! Think I'd avoid the Xbox part though... looks a bit mouldy :p

pearl-drum-man
12-16-2009, 05:29 AM
I understand the investment in games and having many/most of your friends using the 360, but at what point does principals overtake allowing MS to keep gouging? From what I have read, I personally would have already have reached the breaking point a long time ago. I guess everyone has different thresholds before they say "ENOUGH".

Yeah, not sure what that threshold would be. For me, I have had one RRoD, which was replaced under the warranty. So far all it cost me was a couple weeks without the concole, not the end of the world. I guess if I had gone through multiple consoles and had to pay more out of pocket it might change things. My brother is on his third console, which he bought instead of sending in his second RRoD failure. He says for him it is the last one, no matter what! I have been considering upgrading to an Elite anyways (for HD space), now that the Jasper chips are in all 360's and they appear to have corrected the RRoD with them I would feel more confident about it.

Pinoy
12-16-2009, 05:36 AM
I'd like to play more but I don't have the time... :(
I feel ya on that one...

No, I rather have open standards rechargeable batts instead of the proprietary ones. Rechargeable AA batts are best because you have competition and the tech is constantly improving. The ones I use Panasonic enloop (or something) lasts months on a single charge. I really dislike that PS3 batts can not be replaced (at least the earlier models). Thus once the battery goes bad on PS3, you have to buy a new controller or ship it back to sony I think.

The sixaxis/ds3 controllers have always had the same battery design, you've always been able to replace them if you could use a little patience and a screwdriver. Not to mention that the batteries themselves should be good for a couple years. I'd be willing to bet that there would be very few people here with a dead PS3 controller battery if any at all.

Eneloops rock though, their in all my small flashlights and tv remotes, you could have not made a better choice for a rechargeable battery.

Having wifi built in was never a factor for me as I already have a wireless switch from the PS2 days. But now that I also stream movies, I prefer the console to be wired...

No, but it might be if you had a PSP and were considering buying a console. That was the point I was making (not that you can remote play with a 360 anyways but I digress)
I did not buy a game in order to keep having to shell out more ca$h for DLC… It seems as if devs/pubs plan DLC now...announcing it weeks and months before the game is launched. I can't believe ppl are not outraged by that... :what:

It can be somewhat annoying for the reasons you mentioned. *However* I find myself rather pleased at times when a little bit of DLC breathes some new life into a game I really like. It's the extra content I don't mind paying for, as I said it's the content we bought these systems to experience after all isn't it?

Yep, its all fun and games :cool:
Yes it is, as much as I might disagree with you it's all fun and games :gamer
Speaking of gouging, Sony has been doing just that with PS3's price only until recently ;)
The only people they were gouging, as far as hardware pricing, was themselves
zomg pie charts

I LOOVE pie :D

MikeRox
12-16-2009, 09:29 AM
The only people they were gouging, as far as hardware pricing, was themselves

I missed that part. I have to say Sony are the ones you can least accuse of gouging on pricing this generation. Nintendo being the biggest "gougers" but then their business model involves not foolishly selling the console at such a loss they are unable to recover it (this applies to both MS and Sony).

Cygnus
12-16-2009, 09:54 AM
Thats it Cyg, use a single massive selling title to drive the message that the 360 is now king :p

Nintendo are DOOOOOOOOMED! :D


I simply report and let u decide... :angel

Sadly these charts are not representitive of the gaming market due to the spike that MW2 has caused.

MW2 is the biggest multiplatform game this year. It prob will be in Dec's top 10 as well. BTW, PS2 market is essentially dead with only 2% of sales. The PS2s being sold now are prob used to replace broken units. Is piracy on PSP that bad?

MikeRox
12-16-2009, 10:15 AM
I know it's the biggest game of the year, however that also makes it (especially given the dominating size of the 360 userbase in the US vs the PS3 etc) unrepresentitive, much like how the sales of a console straight after a price drop are unrepresentitive of a typical month ;)

Btw on a sidenote, PC retail sales for MW2 in the US didn't even touch 170,000.

railven
12-16-2009, 12:40 PM
Btw on a sidenote, PC retail sales for MW2 in the US didn't even touch 170,000.

Can you check these for me if possible (sorry stuck at work):
Sales numbers for CoD4:MW PC version in the US first month
Sales numbers for CoD:[email protected] PC version in the US first month

Thanks.

kbaker2002de
12-16-2009, 12:49 PM
Also, how has Modern Warfare: Reflex fared so far? I am curious as a Wii owner to see if anyone is buying this, this should have happened 6-12 months ago and we should have MW2 if not now on the way by March or so. But....not the way it is.

Mase
12-16-2009, 12:59 PM
Can you check these for me if possible (sorry stuck at work):
Sales numbers for CoD4:MW PC version in the US first month
Sales numbers for CoD:[email protected] PC version in the US first month

Thanks.

I found this for COD4, I could not find just one month figures, these figures were given on Jan 25th 2008. That is just a little over 2 months..

The PC version, meanwhile, only sold 383,000 units at North American retailers, though that number does not include sales made through digital distribution platforms such as Steam.

I cant find actualy numbers for WaW but Treyarch did mention they doubled COD4s first week sales.

railven
12-16-2009, 01:10 PM
I found this for COD4, I could not find just one month figures, these figures were given on Jan 25th 2008. That is just a little over 2 months..



I cant find actualy numbers for WaW but Treyarch did mention they doubled COD4s first week sales.

Hmmm...makes me wonder how many people got their copies through digital or promotional offers.

I got CoD4/[email protected] with new videocards (course not mine, but shhhhhhh haha.)

And there is the question - how many pirated CoD4 and [email protected]? With CoD4+2 not piratable (atleast for the online) I wonder if the boycott worked in terms of not bothering buying it.

Mase
12-16-2009, 01:18 PM
Hmmm...makes me wonder how many people got their copies through digital or promotional offers.

I got CoD4/[email protected] with new videocards (course not mine, but shhhhhhh haha.)

And there is the question - how many pirated CoD4 and [email protected]? With CoD4+2 not piratable (atleast for the online) I wonder if the boycott worked in terms of not bothering buying it.

Its funny you ask about pirtated copies of COD4 as I dug up an article that sheds a little light on that...


http://kotaku.com/364440/pc-gamings-piracy-sales-charts
Kieron Gillen has done a little digging through a single day's worth of downloads from bittorrent site Mininova and come up with some charts that help show what many PC users are actually playing, if not buying.

1) Assassin's Creed - 25734
2) Frontlines: Fuel of War - 12688
3) Call of Duty 4: Modern Combat - 8792
4) Dark Messiah of Might and Magic - 8402
5) Lost: Via Domus - 5883
6) Turning Point: Fall of Liberty - 5183
7) Sims 2 - 4026
8 ) The Club - 3672
9) Bioshock - 3489
10) The Witcher - 3121
11) Need for Speed ProStreet - 3061
12) Crysis - 2847
13) Conflict: Denied Ops - 2085
14) Neverwinter Nights 2 - 1893
15) Hellgate: London - 1750
16) World in Conflict - 1531
17) Stranglehold - 1459
18) The Orange Box - 1341
19) Age of Empires - 1099
20) Flat Out 2 - 1074

Couple of things to note: first, the copy of Assassin's Creed is a preview build of the game that won't let you into Jerusalem. So it's more a demo than a game. Second, Gillen's maths skills show just why piracy makes Call of Duty 4 devs Infinity Ward so sad:

Thirdly, let's try a little really rough - if conservative - maths. Call of Duty 4 has been on sale for 113 days, assuming day zero piracy. A seven gig torrent, assuming a 100k download speed, takes just under a day to download. Assuming that the rate of downloads now is constant across those whole three and a bit months - which is incredibly conservative, of course, as it'd have been much higher upon release - that means 993496 copies will have been illegally downloaded via Mininova alone.
While it's true a million games pirated doesn't mean a million sales lost, those are still some big numbers. Frightening numbers, really, if you're a PC developer or publisher.

Mase
12-16-2009, 01:21 PM
Sooo roughly a million downloads on only one torrent in the first 3 1/2 months, I cant say I really blame IW for doing what they have done with MW2...

railven
12-16-2009, 02:38 PM
Sooo roughly a million downloads on only one torrent in the first 3 1/2 months, I cant say I really blame IW for doing what they have done with MW2...

I can, sort of.

They could have infastructured Dedicated Servers into IW ala Steam does with most of its games. Of course, you can still play on a hacked server, but it is a pain in the ass, often lacks the sole purpose of having a dedicated server (low ping) and IW still gets their IW.net thing-a-ma-jig.

However, seeing that many copies "stolen" must suck.

kamspy
12-17-2009, 02:33 PM
pirated copies =/= lost sales

It's illogical to even try to relate the two.

railven
12-17-2009, 02:59 PM
pirated copies =/= lost sales

It's illogical to even try to relate the two.

I dunno...

It can be argued that it does, in some form, hinder sales.

Cygnus
12-17-2009, 03:25 PM
Piracy does negatively impact sales. Its just not at the 1:1 ratio that pubs like to claim

awol
12-17-2009, 04:21 PM
pirated copies =/= lost sales

It's illogical to even try to relate the two.

I dunno...

It can be argued that it does, in some form, hinder sales.

Piracy does negatively impact sales. Its just not at the 1:1 ratio that pubs like to claim

If pubs/devs would release a trial version of every game is it possible that we would see numbers like this decrease?? The reason I say is a lot of people say they will pirate a game to try it and then will buy it if they actually like it. But what do the numbers like this actually look like?

It's somewhat easier for consolers to try a game before they buy it via renting or borrowing a copy. And by borrowing, it's not much different than pirating. I borrow something, I'm not paying for it, but I got the full use out of it anyway.

Thoughts?

EDIT: And BTW Cygnus... I may have missed it, but I never did see a response from you regarding the actual size of the Racing Sim genre...

Mase
12-17-2009, 04:46 PM
pirated copies =/= lost sales

It's illogical to even try to relate the two.

Kam even if only a small percentage bought instead of pirated, it would still be significant.. Look at the numbers I posted, one million in just over 3 months on only one tracked torrent.. Soo yes you can say and I will say that pirated copies = lost sales, does this mean I think every copy pirated means a lost sale.. No, it does not.. I do believe there is a percentage though..

Look at PC sales before torrents, I read a few articles and I will try and dig them up for you guys, but it boils down to PC games not faring as well as they used to.. does that mean less people are playing PC games? No, not at all, in fact more people than ever are playing video games, sooo why are sales soo low????

railven
12-17-2009, 05:04 PM
If pubs/devs would release a trial version of every game is it possible that we would see numbers like this decrease?? The reason I say is a lot of people say they will pirate a game to try it and then will buy it if they actually like it. But what do the numbers like this actually look like?

It's somewhat easier for consolers to try a game before they buy it via renting or borrowing a copy. And by borrowing, it's not much different than pirating. I borrow something, I'm not paying for it, but I got the full use out of it anyway.

Thoughts?

EDIT: And BTW Cygnus... I may have missed it, but I never did see a response from you regarding the actual size of the Racing Sim genre...

Cyg won't get back to you as it would totally destroy his argument. That's "Fair and balanced" for you haha.


But for your main post, PC games tend to have demos/trial versions. There is no excuse for Piracy and anyone who think sit isn't a crime/theft/lost sale (agree with Cygnus not 1:1) isn't being logical themselves.

I've heard all the excuses for pirating. In the end none of them validate the act of stealing. While I won't hold pirates to any standard, at least be honest and stop hiding behind a bull shit argument that it has no negative impact or isn't a crime.

File-Sharing, that is a whole different can of worms, and it gets grey there because of how someone can support their argument. I say it is still a crime since you have no connection to the random person/seed you are interacting with. Also the fact that multiple people "share" one copy simultaneously doesn't support the "file sharing" is legal argument.

MikeRox
12-17-2009, 05:20 PM
In the cases of devs that don't do a decent demo, piracy can also benefit sales as there are a minority who "try before you buy" their games.

railven
12-17-2009, 05:30 PM
In the cases of devs that don't do a decent demo, piracy can also benefit sales as there are a minority who "try before you buy" their games.

That is by far a tiny minority.

The norm is:
"Yeah I beat it, that game fucking sucked I'm not buying that shit."

MikeRox
12-17-2009, 06:07 PM
I wouldn't know :p I used to get ISOs for a few quid off people for Dreamcast and ended up buying every single game :lol:

Never really bothered with any form of pirate game for any other system.

railven
12-17-2009, 07:03 PM
I wouldn't know :p I used to get ISOs for a few quid off people for Dreamcast and ended up buying every single game :lol:

Never really bothered with any form of pirate game for any other system.

When did you buy them?

When the DC was still new and each game retailed for full price or later down the road when DC got the axe and you could get them in the HD DVD bin? haha.

PFC5
12-17-2009, 07:32 PM
If pubs/devs would release a trial version of every game is it possible that we would see numbers like this decrease?? The reason I say is a lot of people say they will pirate a game to try it and then will buy it if they actually like it. But what do the numbers like this actually look like?

It's somewhat easier for consolers to try a game before they buy it via renting or borrowing a copy. And by borrowing, it's not much different than pirating. I borrow something, I'm not paying for it, but I got the full use out of it anyway.

Thoughts?

EDIT: And BTW Cygnus... I may have missed it, but I never did see a response from you regarding the actual size of the Racing Sim genre...

I bet more who say this are lying than telling the truth though. They may have the intention for it to be true but just never follow up after playing for hours I bet. I know a couple of people who lie about this.

Borrowing a purchased game from a friend is not the same as stealing it. If you steal it everyone that bought it could still play while you play but if you borrow it, someone cannot play and will likely want it back to play at some point. ;)

MikeRox
12-18-2009, 07:31 AM
When did you buy them?

When the DC was still new and each game retailed for full price or later down the road when DC got the axe and you could get them in the HD DVD bin? haha.

I spent a scary amount of money on Dreamcast titles at retail (full price). I was working part time and at sixth form college and all of my wage went on brand new non clearance DC games. However the system had already been discontinued before I even know of being able to load CD-Rs on the thing. I think I purchased 50-60 full price DC releases (roughly £2500) in the 15 months the system was "alive" over here. Add to that the money my dad also spent a similar amount on the thing.

I bought every single UK Dreamcast title I wanted at full price, then ones I wasn't so sure about when they were reduced. I then proceded to even pick up the shite I didn't want for completion purposes (we only had 217 releases in Europe vs the 350+ the US got and 600+ Japan got) at £5 or less but that was only about 30-40 games.

The DC must have (in Europe at least) had the highest ratio of good games per release of any console I can think of.

awol
12-18-2009, 09:33 AM
Borrowing a purchased game from a friend is not the same as stealing it. If you steal it everyone that bought it could still play while you play but if you borrow it, someone cannot play and will likely want it back to play at some point. ;)

Granted, but I can see how pubs/devs would consider the two to be pretty similar. As far as they're concerned, no one should be able to play a game without paying for it.

kamspy
12-18-2009, 11:39 AM
For me what it boils down to is whenever I read 'piracy' used in any kind of PR statement from any packaged media distributor I immediately think straw man.

Look a Dragon Age Origins for PC. No DRM whatsoever. Just a simple disc check. I'd say at least 80% of the people who bought the game for PC know how they could have pirated it and still chose to purchase it.

Now, take a case like Bioshock for PC that had 5 activation SecuROM DRM. There was a mess at launch with people real copies not activating properly, and more people very upset finding out they bought a license to install a game 5 times rather than own it indefinitely. The pirates didn't have any issues playing before release day. Just the legit customers.

Eventually, 2k patched the 5 Activation thing out of the game and lost a ton of PR and money in the process.

So I like Bioware's new model for DRM. Don't waste the money on it. It never, ever ever ever stops the pirates, but it can interfere with legit customers.

Then there was the whole Quake 4 fiasco where Activision insisted id use some crazy type of DRM and the problems got so bad that both id and Activision stopped officially supporting the game.

MikeRox
12-18-2009, 12:13 PM
Yeah. to hell with DRM, let people decide as it's stupid IMO doing anything else. I mean all that happens is people find a new way around it, or don't bother at all costing sales. I'd like to think people are legit enough on the most part to just buy the product if they want it/feel it justifies the money.

MikeRox
12-18-2009, 12:15 PM
Granted, but I can see how pubs/devs would consider the two to be pretty similar. As far as they're concerned, no one should be able to play a game without paying for it.

Sadly this is the case. They don't want people borrowing games, and they don't want people selling/buying used games. I do think they should look at some way to give developers a cut of used games sales through major retailers like GameStop even if such a model involves lower initial royalties to publishers and developers for the first sale due to resell possibilities.

PFC5
12-18-2009, 03:02 PM
For me what it boils down to is whenever I read 'piracy' used in any kind of PR statement from any packaged media distributor I immediately think straw man.

Look a Dragon Age Origins for PC. No DRM whatsoever. Just a simple disc check. I'd say at least 80% of the people who bought the game for PC know how they could have pirated it and still chose to purchase it.

Now, take a case like Bioshock for PC that had 5 activation SecuROM DRM. There was a mess at launch with people real copies not activating properly, and more people very upset finding out they bought a license to install a game 5 times rather than own it indefinitely. The pirates didn't have any issues playing before release day. Just the legit customers.

Eventually, 2k patched the 5 Activation thing out of the game and lost a ton of PR and money in the process.

So I like Bioware's new model for DRM. Don't waste the money on it. It never, ever ever ever stops the pirates, but it can interfere with legit customers.

Then there was the whole Quake 4 fiasco where Activision insisted id use some crazy type of DRM and the problems got so bad that both id and Activision stopped officially supporting the game.

That is the problem with the DRM they are using now. The legit customers seem to have more problems than the pirates and that is ass backwards.

IMO, if they are going to use DRM they better/should make SURE it is no hassle or have problems for the PAYING customers as a result or else they will just make more people want to use a pirated copy and MAYBE pay them for a legit copy.

PFC5
12-18-2009, 03:08 PM
Sadly this is the case. They don't want people borrowing games, and they don't want people selling/buying used games. I do think they should look at some way to give developers a cut of used games sales through major retailers like GameStop even if such a model involves lower initial royalties to publishers and developers for the first sale due to resell possibilities.

Wait a minute. If you give a book you read to someone else AFTER YOU bought and read/used it that the Author & publishing house should get a cut of that? :error

Sorry. They get the first sale revenue and nothing after that. Period. When people talk about all of this, they always use a book as an example of how it SHOULD be thought of, and once you get rid of the book no one pays them again for the subsequent used book sale.

Should GM/Ford/Toyota (and the original dealership where bought) also get a cut when you sell your used car? When I prepare a tax return should I get a another cut whenever they use that for each bank they may give it to for proof of income to get a loan? That just makes no sense IMO. Greedy bastards. I want my cut!!!!! :p:lol:

railven
12-18-2009, 05:46 PM
The whole excuse of DRM is also weak.

"If they didn't use any DRM I would have bought it."

No, you wouldn't have. DRM is part of this system now. I applaud the developers that don't use DRM. Even so, DA got pirated. the lack of DRM didn't change anyone's mind.

Are DRM schemes useless? Yes. I always break the DRM scheme after I bought the game (which those that know how to pirate, also know how to do.) So saying DRM is hindering sales is as much bullshit as saying pirating doesn't hurt sales.

Spore had a bad DRM fiasco. It got pirated out the ass and still sold out the ass.

And id and Activision didn't drop support on Quake 4, that was Raven's Studio's department. It isn't Activision that releases patches for games, it is the Dev team.
Quake 4: released on PC 10/18/2005
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_4
Latest Patch: released on PC 06/18/2007
http://www.idsoftware.com/games/quake/quake4/index.php?game_section=updates
http://www.quakeunity.com/file=2482

If that is dropping support than I'd hope all developers support their games for at least 2 years.

kamspy
12-18-2009, 07:01 PM
@PFC
They've tried every type of DRM feasible. Even stuff that is programmed to do online activation checks everytime you boot and then at random points in the game. Yet no game has ever not been pirated. None. It's a fool's errand for all parties involved except the ones selling the DRM software. I think it's just something to tell shareholders at this point whenever piracy is brought up. "we tried" etc.

A fair amount of PC games still come with a limited number of activations and I won't buy them.


@Rail

Even with the latest patch the game is still inexplicably broke on random hardware configurations. As an owner of Quake 4 through probably 5 different hardware configurations, I can tell you it's broken as all hell. Shame because it has IMO the best SP of any Quake (not a huge compliment).

Also, Raven Soft does good stuff. They're an enlightened man's Treyarch.

railven
12-18-2009, 07:04 PM
@Rail

Even with the latest patch the game is still inexplicably broke on random hardware configurations. As an owner of Quake 4 through probably 5 different hardware configurations, I can tell you it's broken as all hell. Shame because it has IMO the best SP of any Quake (not a huge compliment).

Also, Raven Soft does good stuff. They're an enlightened man's Treyarch.

The only issues I've read where DRM conflicts with "hardware" is actually software tags where the DRM is designed to not load correctly on computers with certain known programs to lead piracy.

That is why the Securom aspect is always changing, as the keys are broken almost daily.


As an Owner of Quake 4 LE, I had zero issues playing the game on 4 different hardware configurations. But, then again I don't house known piracy software on my computer anymore.

Probably why Windows 7 tries to lock that stuff out too. Developers/manufacturers are probably requesting it.

kamspy
12-18-2009, 07:10 PM
I don't think it's DRM related. But for example, on my old 7800 it hung during loading, but would run on ultra high. 4780 and 4770 both crash when textures are on ultra high before a level even loads, even though they both exceed the recommended specs by a gflop or two.

What do you consider piracy software? Virtual drives?

railven
12-18-2009, 07:28 PM
I don't think it's DRM related. But for example, on my old 7800 it hung during loading, but would run on ultra high. 4780 and 4770 both crash when textures are on ultra high before a level even loads, even though they both exceed the recommended specs by a gflop or two.

What do you consider piracy software? Virtual drives?

Quake 4 wasn't a well polished game from the start. If I remember it had lots of issues with the GeForce series, and when I played it I had an HD x1850 XT, so I never had issues. Only issue that annoyed the hell out of me was regardless what settings I used, the Draw Distance line wouldn't disappear, EVER.

As for Piracy Software, I don't have a list of what I consider piracy software, but there are certain tools (certain names if you will) that are commonly associated with piracy by the way they mount the virtual ISO. Daemon Tools comes to mind that aspect.


EDIT: again, I think it is apps that use unsigned drivers or backdoor mechanics that are being targeted by DRM mechanisms, such as what it seems Windows 7 is starting to do at an OS level. If the developres of the software apply for certification, I'm sure Microsoft would have a clause to activate DRM guidelines in the app.
CloneDVD/CD are other programs that disregard the joilet of an ISO to rip/dump dummy sectors. I'd say the majority of the PC community regard that as a pirates choice versus say Nero or even Roxio.

kamspy
12-18-2009, 08:33 PM
Bah, everything in Nero can be had for free somewhere else (legitimately).

Ironically, Slysoft apps, which are the only ones I know of with an expressed use for backing up/copying DRM protected discs, are among the only Virtual Drives that are working 100% with W7. Go figure. Maybe they're really stepping up their user data collection efforts to catch up with Google.

railven
12-18-2009, 08:45 PM
Bah, everything in Nero can be had for free somewhere else (legitimately).

Ironically, Slysoft apps, which are the only ones I know of with an expressed use for backing up/copying DRM protected discs, are among the only Virtual Drives that are working 100% with W7. Go figure. Maybe they're really stepping up their user data collection efforts to catch up with Google.

My guess is cuz they submit their work for certification, like Nero does (and Nero has gone down hill, ALOT!)

It's just the sad present, and I predict the future will get worse.

Just wait for the government to OK ISP or even OS manufacturers to track traffic.

MikeRox
12-18-2009, 08:58 PM
Wait a minute. If you give a book you read to someone else AFTER YOU bought and read/used it that the Author & publishing house should get a cut of that? :error

Sorry. They get the first sale revenue and nothing after that. Period. When people talk about all of this, they always use a book as an example of how it SHOULD be thought of, and once you get rid of the book no one pays them again for the subsequent used book sale.

Should GM/Ford/Toyota (and the original dealership where bought) also get a cut when you sell your used car? When I prepare a tax return should I get a another cut whenever they use that for each bank they may give it to for proof of income to get a loan? That just makes no sense IMO. Greedy bastards. I want my cut!!!!! :p:lol:

I dont' know about in the US, but in the UK, there are NO pre owned book store chains. You might get the odd shop that sells 2nd hand books, but for the most part, only charity shops do. Game stores on the other hand, the biggest game stores in the country make MOST of their sales from pre owned software.

It's also a medium that attracts far more pre owned sales due to the high RRP of the original games. The savings buying a pre owned game, are often most of the entire RRP of a pre owned book. They are IMO 2 different kettles of fish. Also a book gives the author and publisher FAR more money than a game gives it's developer (in relation to it's sale price) 25% of a games price goes directly to the console manufacturer, another 40-50% goes to retailers. VAT claims 15% atm, but normally, and from January that will be 17.5% again. that leave less than 10% for the developer and publisher. FAR smaller margins than any other product offers, despite much higher development, manufacturing costs... and that is before marketing. Seriously, gaming is a severely fucked up industry atm as for where money goes.

PFC5
12-18-2009, 11:47 PM
I dont' know about in the US, but in the UK, there are NO pre owned book store chains. You might get the odd shop that sells 2nd hand books, but for the most part, only charity shops do. Game stores on the other hand, the biggest game stores in the country make MOST of their sales from pre owned software.

It's also a medium that attracts far more pre owned sales due to the high RRP of the original games. The savings buying a pre owned game, are often most of the entire RRP of a pre owned book. They are IMO 2 different kettles of fish. Also a book gives the author and publisher FAR more money than a game gives it's developer (in relation to it's sale price) 25% of a games price goes directly to the console manufacturer, another 40-50% goes to retailers. VAT claims 15% atm, but normally, and from January that will be 17.5% again. that leave less than 10% for the developer and publisher. FAR smaller margins than any other product offers, despite much higher development, manufacturing costs... and that is before marketing. Seriously, gaming is a severely fucked up industry atm as for where money goes.

There are countless used book stores in the USA. ALso I doubt very much that the author gets even 10% of the retail revenue and that is with authors like Stephen King and John Grisham who are some of the most well compensated authors. I don't know but I would guess that if the top authors even got 5% of gross retail price I would be surprised.