Backwards Volume!?

ajbkid · 02-01-2012, 03:44 PM

Hi everyone. This issue brought me to these forums.

I have had this Surround set up for about 8 years now, and this has always bugged me.

When i turn the vol up, the display shows the db number go down, and when i bring the vol down, the numbers go up.

Its a Kenwood VR-605

Any help is appreciated
Thanks.

mytime · 02-01-2012, 04:00 PM

Most likely because reference level is set to 0. The closer you get to reference (0) the louder you get.

ajbkid · 02-01-2012, 04:03 PM

how does one typically go about changing the reference level?

leevitalone · 02-01-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajbkid

how does one typically go about changing the reference level?

there should be a setting to choose between ref, and absolute, absolute will show it in normal increments not in db's as it is now.
look for volume display or similar. check in the manual.

ajbkid · 02-01-2012, 05:36 PM

Iv looked all over the manual and found nothing of the sort.

leevitalone · 02-01-2012, 11:58 PM

thats a bit odd, but it shows that display. I have a choice in displays but possibly the unit is designed that way. But check for like volume display anything related.
Can you post the model number? I'll dble check.

ajbkid · 02-02-2012, 12:31 AM

Its a Kenwood VR-605

stereocraig · 02-02-2012, 06:15 AM

When the display states db, is is measuring attenuation of the signal.
Ex. With zero db being full power, a display of -3 would be half power.

Of course, those numbers are only for reference and are not absolute measurements of power.

jkkyler · 02-02-2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stereocraig

When the display states db, is is measuring attenuation of the signal.
Ex. With zero db being full power, a display of -3 would be half power.

Of course, those numbers are only for reference and are not absolute measurements of power.

I think you are confusing with SPL levels as my AVR shows relative db scale and 0 is not maximum power it is the reference level that an SPL is calibrated at (I think it is 79db if memory serves me right). In volume 3db difference is half as loud. Either way te OP I think understands as the relative scale is how far you are from reference levels (not max power)

stereocraig · 02-02-2012, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkkyler

I think you are confusing with SPL levels as my AVR shows relative db scale and 0 is not maximum power it is the reference level that an SPL is calibrated at (I think it is 79db if memory serves me right). In volume 3db difference is half as loud. Either way te OP I think understands as the relative scale is how far you are from reference levels (not max power)

An amplifier does not know what your SPL is, because it does not know the efficiency/ sensitivity of your speakers.

Zero db attenuation is full power. If you exceed that point, about all you're gaining, is distortion and clipping.
3db difference is half the power, not half the volume.
10db is half the volume, if measured w/ a mic and not necessarily based on what the display says.

I seriously doubt the accuracy of the display on a consumer grade piece of equipment, anyway.

jkkyler · 02-02-2012, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stereocraig

An amplifier does not know what your SPL is, because it does not know the efficiency/ sensitivity of your speakers.

Zero db attenuation is full power. If you exceed that point, about all you're gaining, is distortion and clipping.
3db difference is half the power, not half the volume.
10db is half the volume, if measured w/ a mic and not necessarily based on what the display says.

I seriously doubt the accuracy of the display on a consumer grade piece of equipment, anyway.

I use audyssey to calibrate so why wouldn't it know since it measures spl and my amp adjusts from -80db to +15. Good point though about 10db being closer to the sound and 3db being half/double the power - I totally turfed that.

For anyone interested here is some god info:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm

for onkyo at least:
from a Onkyo manual: "A home theater system automatically calibrated by Audyssey MultEQ® XT32 will play at reference level when the master volume control is set to the 0 dB position. "
When switching volume display from "Absolute" to "Relative (THX)": "The absolute value 82 is equivalent to the relative value 0 dB."

Seems 0db is not maximum power but 85dB reference level anything above that is greater than reference level.
I have my amp limited to 0db even though it goes to +15 but I rarely get above -15db

DaveJ · 02-02-2012, 07:05 PM

A bit of clarification for the op. In THX terminology, a "reference level" SPL of 85 dB is considered the average or nominal SPL that you would experience in a commercial movie theater that is calibrated to THX standards. Thus, when you play back the movie in your home theater and have the volume set to 0 dB, you should be able to "experience the sights and sound of the film as the director intended".

The SPL of 85 dB is not the maximum SPL. The film may have volume peaks that reach 95-100 dB (+15 dB more than reference level).

I totally agree with jkkyler, we typically have the volume set to around -15 dB for movies also. Even at that, quiet conversation is not possible.
dave

stereocraig · 02-03-2012, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkkyler

I use audyssey to calibrate so why wouldn't it know since it measures spl and my amp adjusts from -80db to +15. Good point though about 10db being closer to the sound and 3db being half/double the power - I totally turfed that.

For anyone interested here is some god info:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm

for onkyo at least:
from a Onkyo manual: "A home theater system automatically calibrated by Audyssey MultEQ® XT32 will play at reference level when the master volume control is set to the 0 dB position. "
When switching volume display from "Absolute" to "Relative (THX)": "The absolute value 82 is equivalent to the relative value 0 dB."

Seems 0db is not maximum power but 85dB reference level anything above that is greater than reference level.
I have my amp limited to 0db even though it goes to +15 but I rarely get above -15db

OK, I get that, but we're talking about a Kenwood 605 for Chripessakes!

My statements are based on the OP and I'm not going to start spinning off into other products.

jkkyler · 02-03-2012, 07:37 AM

Fair enough but the concept/principal is the same regarding relative vs absolute scale regardless of manuf/model. IDK for sure but perhaps relative 0dB is based on a theoretical 100dB efficiency model if the AVR doesn't know your efficiency as you stated but what I am fairly certain of is that 0dB is not max power with only clipping and distortion above.

stereocraig · 02-03-2012, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkkyler

Fair enough but the concept/principal is the same regarding relative vs absolute scale regardless of manuf/model. IDK for sure but perhaps relative 0dB is based on a theoretical 100dB efficiency model if the AVR doesn't know your efficiency as you stated but what I am fairly certain of is that 0dB is not max power with only clipping and distortion above.

Again, I'm NOT talking about some reference scale that was made up for THX, I'm talking about the amount of attenuation that is displayed on the OP's Kenwood.
His display IS NOT displaying level, SPL, reference, volume,or anything else. It is displaying attenuation.

If you want to talk about your Audyssy analyzer, you need to start another thread.
I don't doubt the validity of some your statements, but they are totally unrelated to this discussion.
You're confusing apples and oranges.

02-01-2012, 03:44 PM	#1
ajbkid What is HD? Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4	Backwards Volume!? Hi everyone. This issue brought me to these forums. I have had this Surround set up for about 8 years now, and this has always bugged me. When i turn the vol up, the display shows the db number go down, and when i bring the vol down, the numbers go up. Its a Kenwood VR-605 Any help is appreciated Thanks.

02-01-2012, 04:00 PM	#2
mytime Sober...and hating it Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Jackson, Missouri Posts: 8,254	Most likely because reference level is set to 0. The closer you get to reference (0) the louder you get. __________________ PFC5 you will be missed.

02-02-2012, 07:05 PM	#12
DaveJ In HT, size matters Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alameda, an island in SF Bay Posts: 200	A bit of clarification for the op. In THX terminology, a "reference level" SPL of 85 dB is considered the average or nominal SPL that you would experience in a commercial movie theater that is calibrated to THX standards. Thus, when you play back the movie in your home theater and have the volume set to 0 dB, you should be able to "experience the sights and sound of the film as the director intended". The SPL of 85 dB is not the maximum SPL. The film may have volume peaks that reach 95-100 dB (+15 dB more than reference level). I totally agree with jkkyler, we typically have the volume set to around -15 dB for movies also. Even at that, quiet conversation is not possible. dave __________________ http://www.highdefforum.com/members/...e-theater.html http://www.justracing.com/homepage/dave94502

02-03-2012, 07:37 AM	#14
jkkyler I bleed for HD Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,353	Fair enough but the concept/principal is the same regarding relative vs absolute scale regardless of manuf/model. IDK for sure but perhaps relative 0dB is based on a theoretical 100dB efficiency model if the AVR doesn't know your efficiency as you stated but what I am fairly certain of is that 0dB is not max power with only clipping and distortion above. __________________ HT- Panasonic TH-50PZ800U 1080p plasma, Panasonic PT-AX200u LCD projector, Elite Vmax Electric 100' screen, Onkyo TX-NR905 AVR, Paradigm Titan Monitor v5 fronts, Paradigm CC-190 v6 center, Paradigm Atom Monitors v5 surrounds(x4), HSU research VTF-2 sub, xbox360+hd-dvd player ,Sony BDP-S550 blu-ray, D*tv H21 HD-DVR Bedroom: Insignia NS-lcd26, Samsung BDP-1400 blu-ray Den - Vizio 20" 1080p LCD + Samsung BD-p1600 Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Albert Einstein

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02-01-2012, 04:03 PM	#3
ajbkid What is HD? Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4	how does one typically go about changing the reference level?

02-01-2012, 05:36 PM	#5
ajbkid What is HD? Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4	Iv looked all over the manual and found nothing of the sort.

02-01-2012, 11:58 PM	#6
leevitalone High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,722	thats a bit odd, but it shows that display. I have a choice in displays but possibly the unit is designed that way. But check for like volume display anything related. Can you post the model number? I'll dble check.

02-02-2012, 12:31 AM	#7
ajbkid What is HD? Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4	Its a Kenwood VR-605

02-02-2012, 06:15 AM	#8
stereocraig High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 128	When the display states db, is is measuring attenuation of the signal. Ex. With zero db being full power, a display of -3 would be half power. Of course, those numbers are only for reference and are not absolute measurements of power.