Upscaling DVD?

dvr · 08-14-2005, 05:58 PM

Hello, I just got back from BB and I'm seriously considering the Samsung 56" DLP HLR5667W. The salesman there was trying to talk me into getting an LG LDA-511 DVD player w/ upconversion capability to go with the set. He said that this is one of the better players (which I kinda doubted) and that I would really benefit from it with this tv. I guess I have 2 questions on this.

1. Is this player really all that compared to others that do the upconversion?

2. Is this player even needed with this TV? I've heard that these TVs can do the upconverting themselves also. Should I maybe just consider getting a good progressive DVD player and let the TV do the converting?

thanks

**PFC5** · 08-15-2005, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvr

Hello, I just got back from BB and I'm seriously considering the Samsung 56" DLP HLR5667W. The salesman there was trying to talk me into getting an LG LDA-511 DVD player w/ upconversion capability to go with the set. He said that this is one of the better players (which I kinda doubted) and that I would really benefit from it with this tv. I guess I have 2 questions on this.

1. Is this player really all that compared to others that do the upconversion?

2. Is this player even needed with this TV? I've heard that these TVs can do the upconverting themselves also. Should I maybe just consider getting a good progressive DVD player and let the TV do the converting?

thanks

How much research have you done for the HDTV? I hope you are familiar with the lip-sync with some DVDs & video game console lag with some games on the Samsung DLPs.

I do not like any video product by LG/Zenith. They all seem to push green.

Upscaling is mostly not necessary with any micro display TV, and the 3 I tried look worse than my high end 6 year old JVC PS 480p player.

Good luck!

dvr · 08-15-2005, 05:30 AM

I've done a fair amount of research and have heard of the sync issue, although I wasn't aware it did it with DVDs also. I thought it was just a problem with gaming consoles. I'm not I gamer so I didn't really see it as a problem. I did ask the guy at BB about the issue and he gave me one their "I've never heard of that" canned responses, which is to be expected. I'm just not sure about any of the other brands, I wasn't overly impressed with the other brands they had there (Toshiba, Mitsubishi etc.) Maybe it was just the was they had them setup. I was catching a huge annoying glare/reflection off the Mitsubishi 62" and the color seemed off from the Samsung.

I guess the research continues. TY for informing of the SS sync issue on DVDs as well. I don't relish the thought of spending $3000 on something I won't be completely satisfied with.

mybuddy · 08-15-2005, 11:44 AM

I tried 3 different DVD players with upconversion via HDMI output. An LG418, Toshiba 5970 and a Samsung 850. I could not detect any improvement in picture quality on any of the 3 over players with progressive scan (480P). Most people, including the moderators, on these forums agree that this is a marketing scheme.
However, it might be that you are one of the few who say that they do see an improvement. The only way to know for sure is to buy one, try it, and if it does not work for you, take it back.
Good Luck!

RSawdey · 08-15-2005, 06:29 PM

Upconverting player is not necessary with your set... you've got upconversion built in.

**PFC5** · 08-16-2005, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mybuddy

I tried 3 different DVD players with upconversion via HDMI output. An LG418, Toshiba 5970 and a Samsung 850. I could not detect any improvement in picture quality on any of the 3 over players with progressive scan (480P). Most people, including the moderators, on these forums agree that this is a marketing scheme.
However, it might be that you are one of the few who say that they do see an improvement. The only way to know for sure is to buy one, try it, and if it does not work for you, take it back.
Good Luck!

We tried three similar upscaling DVD players and came to the same conclusion. I tried the Samsung HD-841, the same LG418, and the POS Toshiba SD-5980.

All marketing/hype and NO improvement or even worse PQ is what I have found with these upscalers.

I did keep the Samsung HD-841 for a strictly DVD-Audio/SACD player though. It was given to me in a trade so I couldn't return it anyway.

Get a good Panasonic 480p PS (Progressive Scan) player at Circuit City for $80.00 and you will be have as good a PQ with current DVDs as anything else out there.

Wiley · 08-16-2005, 11:16 AM

The DVD Benchmark tests rank the DVD players you mention in the seventies and the LG418 with a score of 86. The benchmark tests are for DVD players and not limited to upscalers. I suspect if either of you had tried something like an OPPO (score 94) or a Panny S97 (score 91) or Onkyo Sp1000 (score 92) you would hold a different opinion.
Sampling only mid range and clone players (the 850 (a stripped down 841) and the SD 5980 all basically being clones) isn't valid.
With the great return policy of OPPO (coupled with it's reasonable price) I don't see why one doesn't give the unit a try.

With actual delivery of HD discs (HD-DVD and BluRay) to the market seemingly moving further off, a good player that happens also to upscale seems like a good investment.

For those wishing to learn more about DVD players and the Benchmark shootouts, here's a link.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...h&articles=122

Wiley

**PFC5** · 08-16-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiley

The DVD Benchmark tests rank the DVD players you mention in the seventies and the LG418 with a score of 86. The benchmark tests are for DVD players and not limited to upscalers. I suspect if either of you had tried something like an OPPO (score 94) or a Panny S97 (score 91) or Onkyo Sp1000 (score 92) you would hold a different opinion.
Sampling only mid range and clone players (the 850 (a stripped down 841) and the SD 5980 all basically being clones) isn't valid.
With the great return policy of OPPO (coupled with it's reasonable price) I don't see why one doesn't give the unit a try.

With actual delivery of HD discs (HD-DVD and BluRay) to the market seemingly moving further off, a good player that happens also to upscale seems like a good investment.

For those wishing to learn more about DVD players and the Benchmark shootouts, here's a link.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...h&articles=122

Wiley

I review the Secrets site all the time. I have chatted with Kris Deering there and he wants to eliminate the scoring numbers on these players, because (paraphrasing) they are based on much more than PQ. He wants info to come from the text of the review not from a "score". I would rather leave the scoring in and have PQ be the number ONE criteria in the point weighing.

Try finding a Panasonic S97 for sale anywhere reputable even on line and I would definately consider buying it. No one has them anymore. Panasonic seems to replace the models every 4-6 months, so when you finally get enough feedback to buy it they are no longer available.

I have thought about the Oppo, but I do not wish to give money indirectly to Faroudja/Genesis until they fix the macroblocking issues. It may seem foolish to have this attitude about Faroudja, but they are selling a defective product in my opinion and they should not be rewarded. It will just keep them selling the defective chips to mfg instead of fixing the problem. I don't even think macroblocking will be an issue with my HDTV, but it is on principle I take this position.

Now having a DVD player that still looks very good already, makes taking this position easier to swallow.

jojojojo57 · 08-22-2005, 09:48 AM

The bottom line is that despite the best efforts of the marketing guys to pull a fast one here, many of the better up-scaling players DO INDEED produce a significantly better image on many HDTV-ready TVs. Some of that is due to the digital connection, but some is also due to the combination of de-interlacing and scaling technologies working well to produce a signal the TV happens to be optimized to display. Combine that with other improvements naturally occurring with each product cycle and you get a better player.

But just as with the progressive players, there are some up-scaling players out there which are nothing but hype. Engineered by the school of shoddy, they are just not worth the money. And there are undoubtedly folks who will buy up-scaling players and find they end up preferring the signal they get hooking the thing up via S-video at 480 resolution, simply because their TV does a better job doing what they paid to have the DVD player do.

Wiley · 08-22-2005, 11:03 AM

PFC5 writes:
"I have thought about the Oppo, but I do not wish to give money indirectly to Faroudja/Genesis until they fix the macroblocking issues. It may seem foolish to have this attitude about Faroudja, but they are selling a defective product in my opinion and they should not be rewarded. It will just keep them selling the defective chips to mfg instead of fixing the problem. I don't even think macroblocking will be an issue with my HDTV, but it is on principle I take this position."

Glad you cleared the air on this one. It isn't that you think that someone (perhaps even yourself) would benefit from an OPPO, but rather that you have an issue with a manufacturer of a part (intregal part) that is used in the unit.

Since Samsung uses Faroudja/Genesis chips one might conclude that you decry all Samsungs for that reason as well.

And here all along I thought you were advising people on possible purchases on the basis of picture quality when in fact it appears that it is on the basis of a personal anti-Faroudja/Genesis campaign.

Does that seem unfair? I have yet to see any posts regarding lipsync issues with Samsung HLP 5085 or HLP 5685 or either of the newer versions of those Samsungs TVs. Yet with broad brush you condemn all Samsungs, and OPPO.

I find it stange too, that you are against a company (OPPO) that is held in very high regard by a large number of contributers to the AVS forum and many on this forum for their exceptional reception of thoughts, issues and even "wish list" features purchasers would like to see incorporated in firmware upgrades and in future units. I know that's hard to believe, but read the +- 200 page thread on the OPPO on the AVS forum. OPPO is a company that actually seems to care what their customers think and want. And you condemn them because they use a chip that in some applications has problems.

I have a Samsung HLP 5685 and with it a OPPO (OPDV971H). That's two Faroudja/Genesis chips, one following the other. I have no issues with either lipsync nor macroblocking. I have a great picture. I would recommend that configuration to anyone.

Wiley

**PFC5** · 08-23-2005, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiley

PFC5 writes:
"I have thought about the Oppo, but I do not wish to give money indirectly to Faroudja/Genesis until they fix the macroblocking issues. It may seem foolish to have this attitude about Faroudja, but they are selling a defective product in my opinion and they should not be rewarded. It will just keep them selling the defective chips to mfg instead of fixing the problem. I don't even think macroblocking will be an issue with my HDTV, but it is on principle I take this position."

Glad you cleared the air on this one. It isn't that you think that someone (perhaps even yourself) would benefit from an OPPO, but rather that you have an issue with a manufacturer of a part (intregal part) that is used in the unit.

Since Samsung uses Faroudja/Genesis chips one might conclude that you decry all Samsungs for that reason as well.

And here all along I thought you were advising people on possible purchases on the basis of picture quality when in fact it appears that it is on the basis of a personal anti-Faroudja/Genesis campaign.

Does that seem unfair? I have yet to see any posts regarding lipsync issues with Samsung HLP 5085 or HLP 5685 or either of the newer versions of those Samsungs TVs. Yet with broad brush you condemn all Samsungs, and OPPO.

I find it stange too, that you are against a company (OPPO) that is held in very high regard by a large number of contributers to the AVS forum and many on this forum for their exceptional reception of thoughts, issues and even "wish list" features purchasers would like to see incorporated in firmware upgrades and in future units. I know that's hard to believe, but read the +- 200 page thread on the OPPO on the AVS forum. OPPO is a company that actually seems to care what their customers think and want. And you condemn them because they use a chip that in some applications has problems.

I have a Samsung HLP 5685 and with it a OPPO (OPDV971H). That's two Faroudja/Genesis chips, one following the other. I have no issues with either lipsync nor macroblocking. I have a great picture. I would recommend that configuration to anyone.

Wiley

From what I have read and heard, the Oppo is an excellent player but does show macroblocking (with some/many displays) like almost all other players with the 23xx chip. The only real issue I have with the Oppo is that it only does 480i through component. It does not do PS unless you use the DVI connection. I usually move older products to one of the bedrooms when I get something better for the main HT room. I just don't like being limited. This is a personal choice I made.

I only mention the rare lip-sync issues I hear of with the Oppo to try to figure out where the problem lies with the Samsung lip-sync issue. Not to create some conspiracy theory with the Faroudja chip. I am trying to figure out what is causing the problem.

When I mention the lip-sync/gaming video lag issues with the Samsung DLPs, it is because most people here DO NOT mention it so I think people should know about it BEFORE they buy. I have had many people thank me for that info, and many PM me to thank me, or to ask more questions about it. I wonder if they ask those questions in a PM because they do not want to be attacked if they ask in an open thread. If that is the reason it is sad they feel this way.

The funny thing is I spend my time posting to help people make an informed choice. Then someone new registers (who owns a Samsung) on this and other boards and tries to discredit the info I am providing. I do not care if Samsung sells a billion HDTVs per month, but I DO care that people get a TV that does what they want it to do.

If you watch my posts, you will see most of the Samsung lip-sync posts are directed toward people who say they want to use it for gaming. Even Samsung has stated they have the gaming lag issue on their website in the FAQ, but it is like 4 pages into it. I do mention it whenever anyone looks for advice about an HDTV so they know the problem exists.

I am aware that the Samsung DLPs all have some version of Faroudja/Genesis chip in them, but I have never heard which chip that is. Do you know which version they use? I am guessing, but I think they use an older version that does not have the Macroblocking "enhancement" that the newer 23xx versions have. I base that on the lack of any macroblocking issues with the Samsungs.

I have an issue with ONE thing about the Samsungs PQ. I think they overprocess the picture too much, and smooth out some details in the process. Specifically, elderly peoples wrinkled face show less wrinkles when I have compared them next to another DLP with the HD2+ chip in the stores. Again, this is what I see with MY eyes, but many others do not see this, or actually like this so it is not an issue for them.

I would never presume to tell people which TV has the best PQ, because this is a very subjective area. I would only say which HDTV I think has the best (or very good) picture. I always tell them to go and look at the HDTVs themselves and compare with their eyes, because what THEY SEE matters most.

I am NOT on a crusade against Faroudja, although it might appear that way from my post, upon re-reading it. I was just trying to say that people should THINK about the message they send to mfg of defective products, when they continue to buy them.

I am glad you are not having any problems with your setup, and like I have said, the Samsungs with the HD2+ chip seems to rarely have the lip-sync issues, but I have heard they do still have the gaming video lag issue on some games.

Kanati · 09-05-2005, 08:33 PM

Sorry to revive this old thread, but...

I just bought an LG LDA-511 upscaling player and have it hooked via component to my Mitsubishi WD62327 62" DLP... I thought "great. I'll be able to upscale my dvd's to 720p (native of the tv). But come to find out after buying it that it only plays copy protected discs at 480p... I can play DIVX (another reason I purchased this unit) upscaled to 720p or 1080i and they do look better than 480p if they have been sampled well and are at a good resolution. But I am rather irked that I cannot play most of my dvd collection at the advertised upscaled resolution (whether or not I'll see any difference remains to be seen).

Does anyone know a workaround to this? How did you guys test? Will the unit do it if I had it hooked up via HDMI (no hdmi port on this tv and I already have the DVI port in use)?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

ja2935 · 09-06-2005, 09:05 AM

Forgive my simple ignorance on this issue but I thought that HDTVs would normally upscale to match the TVs native resolution; ie 480 (i or p) becomes 720p or 1080i depending on the set?

Kanati · 09-06-2005, 09:37 AM

Most that I'm aware of, if you pass it a 480p signal it'll be displayed in 480p. They don't normally upscale to the hi-def (I don't consider 480p hi-def) resolutions from a 480x res.

Some fixed-pixel systems MIGHT do that... But the difference in quality is going to depend on the quality of the scaler in question. My tv doesn't scale up from 480, but if it did, I'd compare which scaler did the better job and go from there.

In the mean time... I still want to bypass my little problem if at all possible.

ja2935 · 09-06-2005, 06:39 PM

My TV has two resolution options - 1080i or 540p. I leave it on 1080i all the time so I believe it effectively upscales - or at least it adds interlaced lines.

08-14-2005, 05:58 PM	#1
dvr My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 6	Upscaling DVD? Hello, I just got back from BB and I'm seriously considering the Samsung 56" DLP HLR5667W. The salesman there was trying to talk me into getting an LG LDA-511 DVD player w/ upconversion capability to go with the set. He said that this is one of the better players (which I kinda doubted) and that I would really benefit from it with this tv. I guess I have 2 questions on this. 1. Is this player really all that compared to others that do the upconversion? 2. Is this player even needed with this TV? I've heard that these TVs can do the upconverting themselves also. Should I maybe just consider getting a good progressive DVD player and let the TV do the converting? thanks

08-15-2005, 11:44 AM	#4
mybuddy High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 72	Upconversion DVD Players I tried 3 different DVD players with upconversion via HDMI output. An LG418, Toshiba 5970 and a Samsung 850. I could not detect any improvement in picture quality on any of the 3 over players with progressive scan (480P). Most people, including the moderators, on these forums agree that this is a marketing scheme. However, it might be that you are one of the few who say that they do see an improvement. The only way to know for sure is to buy one, try it, and if it does not work for you, take it back. Good Luck!

08-16-2005, 11:16 AM	#7
Wiley High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 269	Try better upscalers The DVD Benchmark tests rank the DVD players you mention in the seventies and the LG418 with a score of 86. The benchmark tests are for DVD players and not limited to upscalers. I suspect if either of you had tried something like an OPPO (score 94) or a Panny S97 (score 91) or Onkyo Sp1000 (score 92) you would hold a different opinion. Sampling only mid range and clone players (the 850 (a stripped down 841) and the SD 5980 all basically being clones) isn't valid. With the great return policy of OPPO (coupled with it's reasonable price) I don't see why one doesn't give the unit a try. With actual delivery of HD discs (HD-DVD and BluRay) to the market seemingly moving further off, a good player that happens also to upscale seems like a good investment. For those wishing to learn more about DVD players and the Benchmark shootouts, here's a link. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-b...h&articles=122 Wiley

08-22-2005, 09:48 AM	#9
jojojojo57 gaffer Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: So.Calif. Posts: 350	by Bob Pariseau The bottom line is that despite the best efforts of the marketing guys to pull a fast one here, many of the better up-scaling players DO INDEED produce a significantly better image on many HDTV-ready TVs. Some of that is due to the digital connection, but some is also due to the combination of de-interlacing and scaling technologies working well to produce a signal the TV happens to be optimized to display. Combine that with other improvements naturally occurring with each product cycle and you get a better player. But just as with the progressive players, there are some up-scaling players out there which are nothing but hype. Engineered by the school of shoddy, they are just not worth the money. And there are undoubtedly folks who will buy up-scaling players and find they end up preferring the signal they get hooking the thing up via S-video at 480 resolution, simply because their TV does a better job doing what they paid to have the DVD player do.

08-22-2005, 11:03 AM	#10
Wiley High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 269	Glad you cleared the air PFC5 writes: "I have thought about the Oppo, but I do not wish to give money indirectly to Faroudja/Genesis until they fix the macroblocking issues. It may seem foolish to have this attitude about Faroudja, but they are selling a defective product in my opinion and they should not be rewarded. It will just keep them selling the defective chips to mfg instead of fixing the problem. I don't even think macroblocking will be an issue with my HDTV, but it is on principle I take this position." Glad you cleared the air on this one. It isn't that you think that someone (perhaps even yourself) would benefit from an OPPO, but rather that you have an issue with a manufacturer of a part (intregal part) that is used in the unit. Since Samsung uses Faroudja/Genesis chips one might conclude that you decry all Samsungs for that reason as well. And here all along I thought you were advising people on possible purchases on the basis of picture quality when in fact it appears that it is on the basis of a personal anti-Faroudja/Genesis campaign. Does that seem unfair? I have yet to see any posts regarding lipsync issues with Samsung HLP 5085 or HLP 5685 or either of the newer versions of those Samsungs TVs. Yet with broad brush you condemn all Samsungs, and OPPO. I find it stange too, that you are against a company (OPPO) that is held in very high regard by a large number of contributers to the AVS forum and many on this forum for their exceptional reception of thoughts, issues and even "wish list" features purchasers would like to see incorporated in firmware upgrades and in future units. I know that's hard to believe, but read the +- 200 page thread on the OPPO on the AVS forum. OPPO is a company that actually seems to care what their customers think and want. And you condemn them because they use a chip that in some applications has problems. I have a Samsung HLP 5685 and with it a OPPO (OPDV971H). That's two Faroudja/Genesis chips, one following the other. I have no issues with either lipsync nor macroblocking. I have a great picture. I would recommend that configuration to anyone. Wiley

08-15-2005, 05:30 AM	#3
dvr My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 6	I've done a fair amount of research and have heard of the sync issue, although I wasn't aware it did it with DVDs also. I thought it was just a problem with gaming consoles. I'm not I gamer so I didn't really see it as a problem. I did ask the guy at BB about the issue and he gave me one their "I've never heard of that" canned responses, which is to be expected. I'm just not sure about any of the other brands, I wasn't overly impressed with the other brands they had there (Toshiba, Mitsubishi etc.) Maybe it was just the was they had them setup. I was catching a huge annoying glare/reflection off the Mitsubishi 62" and the color seemed off from the Samsung. I guess the research continues. TY for informing of the SS sync issue on DVDs as well. I don't relish the thought of spending $3000 on something I won't be completely satisfied with.

08-15-2005, 06:29 PM	#5
RSawdey Mr. Wizard Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ferndale, Michigan Age: 62 Posts: 5,981	Upconverting player is not necessary with your set... you've got upconversion built in.

09-05-2005, 08:33 PM	#12
Kanati My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 7	Sorry to revive this old thread, but... I just bought an LG LDA-511 upscaling player and have it hooked via component to my Mitsubishi WD62327 62" DLP... I thought "great. I'll be able to upscale my dvd's to 720p (native of the tv). But come to find out after buying it that it only plays copy protected discs at 480p... I can play DIVX (another reason I purchased this unit) upscaled to 720p or 1080i and they do look better than 480p if they have been sampled well and are at a good resolution. But I am rather irked that I cannot play most of my dvd collection at the advertised upscaled resolution (whether or not I'll see any difference remains to be seen). Does anyone know a workaround to this? How did you guys test? Will the unit do it if I had it hooked up via HDMI (no hdmi port on this tv and I already have the DVI port in use)? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

09-06-2005, 09:05 AM	#13
ja2935 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1,034	Forgive my simple ignorance on this issue but I thought that HDTVs would normally upscale to match the TVs native resolution; ie 480 (i or p) becomes 720p or 1080i depending on the set? __________________ Toshiba 34HF84 Comcast Motorola DCT 3416 (all digital), Component/Fiber Optic Toshiba SD4900 (Region Free), Component/Digital Coax Toshiba HD-A2, HDMI/Fiber Optic Yamaha YHT-160 Home Theater System

09-06-2005, 09:37 AM	#14
Kanati My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 7	Most that I'm aware of, if you pass it a 480p signal it'll be displayed in 480p. They don't normally upscale to the hi-def (I don't consider 480p hi-def) resolutions from a 480x res. Some fixed-pixel systems MIGHT do that... But the difference in quality is going to depend on the quality of the scaler in question. My tv doesn't scale up from 480, but if it did, I'd compare which scaler did the better job and go from there. In the mean time... I still want to bypass my little problem if at all possible.

09-06-2005, 06:39 PM	#15
ja2935 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1,034	My TV has two resolution options - 1080i or 540p. I leave it on 1080i all the time so I believe it effectively upscales - or at least it adds interlaced lines. __________________ Toshiba 34HF84 Comcast Motorola DCT 3416 (all digital), Component/Fiber Optic Toshiba SD4900 (Region Free), Component/Digital Coax Toshiba HD-A2, HDMI/Fiber Optic Yamaha YHT-160 Home Theater System

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