Any input...Samsung lip sync problems still occuring??

RSawdey · 06-24-2005, 02:09 PM

The workaround, as you mention, is to feed the TV a 720p signal, so no upconversion occurs.

**PFC5** · 06-24-2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSawdey

The workaround, as you mention, is to feed the TV a 720p signal, so no upconversion occurs.

Why should we have to pay the extra hundreds of dollars for upconverting DVD players just for the "priviledge" of owning a Samsung, when the competitors DO NOT have this problem?

Also by having the cable/sat box do the upconvert to 720p you are bypassing the electronics you paid for inside the Samsung. How can this be a GOOD THING for a TV that costs so much?

I am sorry, but as I have said before, If Samsung wants to do so much extra video processing in their TVs, they should put faster chips in there. NO ONE should have that kind of a problem with a TV they pay several thousand dollars for. Maybe if people stop making excuses for Samsung (and stop buying them) they will get the message.

trm17118 · 06-28-2005, 09:05 AM

Well, the local tech came by while I was at work and spent five minutes fiddling with what I assume was the service menus. I've watched for several days to see if the lip sync issue is still a problem and it appears to have been significantly diminished on HD channels and on SD channels it is somewhat acceptable but every now and then, SD channels seem to slip out of sync to an unacceptable level.

I'm calling the technican back again.

**rbinck** · 06-28-2005, 09:18 AM

Here are a couple of references on the Lip Sync problems:
http://www.ibcnews.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=31013-0
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/AV_lip_sync_delay.html

Many manufacturers have gone to a single chip for the four main video processing requirements. By combining the A to D, Resolution Scaler, Space - Movement, and Interlace - Progressive conversion processors on a single chip, the delay can be controlled and reduced. This is accomplished by diverting processing to the operations required rather than the older process of having the signal go through a series of four processors one after another.

Even still many digital displays use an intermeadiate video memory between the source and the display engine to allow for asyncronized video update (where the source framerate is different than the video engine update) which will add some delay due to the memory access. These new processors have a connection to the audio processor to set the audio delay to match the video delay. That is why some sets have problems and others don't.

RSawdey · 06-28-2005, 01:53 PM

As you mention, SuperMod, a well designed TV will delay the audio to match the video processing delay... with such a TV, one would need to use the digital audio out to feed your SS amp, since it would be delay adjusted. But poor design has given us sets that will only pass out DD 2.0, since that's what the TV told the HDMI device to deliver. If only using the TV's speakers that would be appropriate, but they need some sort of setup switch to have DD 5.1 sent for pass-thru. Alternatively, most people run SPDIF direct from the STB to their SS amp - but now we've got video & audio processing occuring in different devices that don't communicate the required delay.

Plus the station sync issues that SMPTE is working on...

trm17118 · 07-12-2005, 06:03 PM

Thanks for all the links and guidance here guys. It was helpful and I think I fully understand it now.

To make a very long story short, with my Samsung HLN617W I am still experiencing the audio syncronization problem. To get rid of it, Samsung has replaced the audio processing board and reset an internal delay setting. All this does is fix audio sync issues when using the the internal TV speakers. Per Samsung's web site, "when you use your home theater system to play sound, it gets complicated." That's putting it mildly.

In short, Samsung has made a great HDTV with superior signal processing. The picture is great. What they didn't do, is consider that most people who buy an $3,500 HDTV, will have HTS and won't use the internal speakers. Therefore, audio goes from your STB to your amp and immediately plays sound while video goes to your HDTV where it does XX msec of processing thereby inducing the delay.

Near as I can tell from reading your inputs and experimenting with my cable STB, is to set the STB to output video at the Samsung's native resolution of 1280 x 720 for all channels (HD and SD and in between). What this does is eliminate (for the most part) the audio sync issue. The downside is I'm using the relatively cheap and ineffective scaler of the General Instruments STB, not the very expensive and good looking one in the HDTV. HD channels look great, but SD looks worse when you use the cable STB scaler vs. the HDTV scaler.

Bottom line, I'm not pleased and will complain again to Samsung. Don't know how much good it will do. Also switching from cable to Dish with a 924 receiver hoping the problem will be better there. Besides, I hate cable anyway.

**PFC5** · 07-12-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSawdey

As you mention, SuperMod, a well designed TV will delay the audio to match the video processing delay... with such a TV, one would need to use the digital audio out to feed your SS amp, since it would be delay adjusted. But poor design has given us sets that will only pass out DD 2.0, since that's what the TV told the HDMI device to deliver. If only using the TV's speakers that would be appropriate, but they need some sort of setup switch to have DD 5.1 sent for pass-thru. Alternatively, most people run SPDIF direct from the STB to their SS amp - but now we've got video & audio processing occuring in different devices that don't communicate the required delay.

Plus the station sync issues that SMPTE is working on...

You describe the problem correctly, but the fact is Samsung is the only DLP maker that is having this problem. Sure all HDTVs can get out of sync if the source (usually the TV station) screws up, but Samsung DLPs do this even with DVDs.

I think it may be caused by the Faroudja chip they all have. Too bad Samsung soesn't let you turn it off to find out. I am certainly no expert in this field but I have very good deductive reasoning and it seems likely (to me) that the Faroudja chip may be the common denominator and the cause of this video delay.

**PFC5** · 07-12-2005, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trm17118

Thanks for all the links and guidance here guys. It was helpful and I think I fully understand it now.

..... In short, Samsung has made a great HDTV with superior signal processing. The picture is great. What they didn't do, is consider that most people who buy an $3,500 HDTV, will have HTS and won't use the internal speakers. Therefore, audio goes from your STB to your amp and immediately plays sound while video goes to your HDTV where it does XX msec of processing thereby inducing the delay. .....

Bottom line, I'm not pleased and will complain again to Samsung. Don't know how much good it will do. Also switching from cable to Dish with a 924 receiver hoping the problem will be better there. Besides, I hate cable anyway.

The funny thing is when I talked to Samsung and scheduled a service call I was told by the service company (then Samsung when I called them out on it) that there was nothing that could be done if you do not run the sound through the TV FIRST! The problem with that "fix" is then you only get stereo instead of DD/DTS 5.1 sound through your receiver.

Samsung actually said that only about 3% of their HDTV customers actually use a Home Theater sound setup with them. Maybe THAT is why they don't seem to be in a hurry to TRULY fix the problem. I found this statement by Samsung to be highly implausable myself.

You might want to think twice about going to Dish to get better SD picture quality. I have heard they really compress the signal a lot to fit all those useless channels in their available bandwidth. All digital to me means they can compress it more, not a better picture. I never had Dish, but I did have Voom and I was told (by former Dish customers) that Voom was much better with the SD signals than either Dish or DirectTV. My cable is better than Voom was with SD signals so that is how I came to that conclusion.

I just have my SA 3250HD cable box upconvert the 480i signal to 480p, and let everything else "Pass-Through" as is and I am very happy with the SD PQ now.

leshabitants24 · 07-13-2005, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

The funny thing is when I talked to Samsung and scheduled a service call I was told by the service company (then Samsung when I called them out on it) that there was nothing that could be done if you do not run the sound through the TV FIRST! The problem with that "fix" is then you only get stereo instead of DD/DTS 5.1 sound through your receiver.

Samsung actually said that only about 3% of their HDTV customers actually use a Home Theater sound setup with them. Maybe THAT is why they don't seem to be in a hurry to TRULY fix the problem. I found this statement by Samsung to be highly implausable myself.

You might want to think twice about going to Dish to get better SD picture quality. I have heard they really compress the signal a lot to fit all those useless channels in their available bandwidth. All digital to me means they can compress it more, not a better picture. I never had Dish, but I did have Voom and I was told (by former Dish customers) that Voom was much better with the SD signals than either Dish or DirectTV. My cable is better than Voom was with SD signals so that is how I came to that conclusion.

I just have my SA 3250HD cable box upconvert the 480i signal to 480p, and let everything else "Pass-Through" as is and I am very happy with the SD PQ now.

i run my audio from my hd stb thru my pioneer 5.1 dd amp (circa 1998)via coaxial digital input. my dvi directly to the tv. the same with my dvd player. sound thru the amp and picture direct to tv via component. i have regular cable hooked up as well. i also feed the svideo from hd stb to the tv for times when we don't need the amp on. i have never ever had any lip sync or video lag or clay face with my sammy5085w . period.

**PFC5** · 07-13-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leshabitants24

i run my audio from my hd stb thru my pioneer 5.1 dd amp (circa 1998)via coaxial digital input. my dvi directly to the tv. the same with my dvd player. sound thru the amp and picture direct to tv via component. i have regular cable hooked up as well. i also feed the svideo from hd stb to the tv for times when we don't need the amp on. i have never ever had any lip sync or video lag or clay face with my sammy5085w . period.

It seems to be less of an issue with the HD2+ chip models. I don't know if that chip requires less processing, or what. Have you tried any game consoles with your 5085? Particularly the golf, baseball, football games that require instantaneous timing for things like swings, kicks, throws, etc.

I am happy that you have no lag issues. It seems to be hit or miss with these Samsungs, but the HD2+ chips seem to have less of a problem. I don't know if it is that you and others do not notice it, or are less sensitive to it, but I do know it doesn't do it on all DVDs.

Try playing Pirates of the Caribbean in DTS and see if you see it on that DVD. That was the most easily recognized DVD to see the problem. It was very obvious playing the DTS soundtrack, but I was still able to see it on the DD5.1 soundtrack as well. Especially the opening scenes on the ship when the main female character was a girl.

Glad you don't have any problems with yours and I hope for your continued good luck with your HDTV.

JoeyG · 07-14-2005, 09:16 AM

I posted this in another thread earlier today. Have two inputs hooked up, one completely through the Denon 2805 and one split with video to the tv and sound to the denon. No lip sync either way and I looked for it.

BTW, the Sammy HLR4667 has a digital optical out so it WILL carry a fully encoded surround sound signal to your receiver if that's the way you want to hook it up. Put everything into the set, then audio out and preserve your Dolby encoding. No lip sync this way according to Samsung and one button switching of vid and sound.

Or, the Denon 2805 has the video switching to run everything into it and one cable out to your set. One button switching and no lip sync either. It also has a variable delay built in so no need to buy the Felton product for $250 should you have problems.

**PFC5** · 07-14-2005, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyG

I posted this in another thread earlier today. Have two inputs hooked up, one completely through the Denon 2805 and one split with video to the tv and sound to the denon. No lip sync either way and I looked for it.

BTW, the Sammy HLR4667 has a digital optical out so it WILL carry a fully encoded surround sound signal to your receiver if that's the way you want to hook it up. Put everything into the set, then audio out and preserve your Dolby encoding. No lip sync this way according to Samsung and one button switching of vid and sound.

Or, the Denon 2805 has the video switching to run everything into it and one cable out to your set. One button switching and no lip sync either. It also has a variable delay built in so no need to buy the Felton product for $250 should you have problems.

I have optical out and 5.1 out on my RCA DLP because it has the HD tuners built-in. On my TV the optical and 5.1 out only work if you are using the cable card or the source is the HDMI audio being used. Yours probably works the same way because it needs to get the digital 5.1 signal into the TV BEFORE it can send it out. This makes sense. As far as I know, NONE the the mfg have a dedicated optical or digital coax audio input on them just those outputs IF they have the HD tuners in them. Having a dedicated 5.1 audio input would help create a viable lip-sync work around to have the TV adjust the audio out based on the video speed. Why doesn't Samsung offer this?

The Samsung I tried didn't have the HD tuner, so it only had stereo audio inputs AND outputs. The problem with ANY lip-sync adjustment device whether it is a separate box or the receiver is the delay various sometimes even during the playback of the same source during the course of the same DVD. Who wants to have to fiddle with the audio sync all the time? I know I wouldn't and I didn't want to train my family how to do it.

As far as I can tell Samsung has had this problem for over 3 years now, but they STILL have it (but it is getting better). The question is WHY do they still have it at all? Certainly they should be able to fix a problem the DLP competitors do not have.

You can call me a Samsung basher, but that is not my purpose with these posts. My purpose is to inform people of a problem that has existed for over 3 years, and that still exists to a diminishing degree. I am spending my time trying to help people make informed decisions BEFORE they buy, and let them know it is not an issue with all DLPs, just Samsung. Ask someone that HAS a problem if they wish someone told them about the video game lag BEFORE they bought it, and I bet they all say yes.

I have talked very highly of their customer service being possibly the best out of the current mfg, and how nicely they look. At least I am talking about a brand/product I actually bought and wanted to like. Many people bash brands/products they have never owned or talk about a report that is over a 1 1/2 years old, that didn't even rate the product type (DLP) that they are bashing.

If you do not have any problem with your Samsung DLP, that is GREAT! I am very happy for you, and wish you continued happiness with it. But I have helped quite a few people WHO DO have a problem with Samsung's lip-sync and game/video lag issues. Both here and on other forums. I truly hope that Samsung DOES finally really fix this problem. If they do, we ALL benefit because that will give us more options and choices when we purchase, and of course less headaches by not having to dealing with these problems.

JoeyG · 07-14-2005, 12:54 PM

A dedicated audio optical or coax input would be nice. My Sammy HLR 4667 has Cablecard, HDMI, and on OTA tuner so I guess it took a while to catch up. Also two firewire inputs which I understand will carry a full surround signal also. I believe that is four or five ways/inputs to get a full encoded signal in and an optical out to carry it to your receiver/preamp.(Not sure about OTA audio, if it carries 5.1 or higher).

Insight is providing me the new Motorola box with two HD tuners, a DVR, HDMI out and SPDIF output. Component outs and a free Cablecard too so I am more than set.

In theory the lip sync shouldn't be a problem when you go into the set and then out to your receiver, shouldn't it? Hasn't been a problem yet for me and I have tested this thing several ways. If lip sync was still a problem you are setting the variable audio delay at the receiver for one audio input only and setting it. Shouldn't be much of a hassle, especially when you consider what it takes to set up one of these new receivers. Assignable inputs, speaker characteristics, room EQ microphones, etc.

This forum is cool in that you get a lot of peoples experiences. I wonder if the manufacturers have someone read this stuff, it would be their best feedback ever!

JoeyG · 07-14-2005, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

I have optical out and 5.1 out on my RCA DLP because it has the HD tuners built-in. On my TV the optical and 5.1 out only work if you are using the cable card or the source is the HDMI audio being used. Yours probably works the same way because it needs to get the digital 5.1 signal into the TV BEFORE it can send it out. This makes sense. As far as I know, NONE the the mfg have a dedicated optical or digital coax audio input on them just those outputs IF they have the HD tuners in them. Having a dedicated 5.1 audio input would help create a viable lip-sync work around to have the TV adjust the audio out based on the video speed. Why doesn't Samsung offer this?

The Samsung I tried didn't have the HD tuner, so it only had stereo audio inputs AND outputs. The problem with ANY lip-sync adjustment device whether it is a separate box or the receiver is the delay various sometimes even during the playback of the same source during the course of the same DVD. Who wants to have to fiddle with the audio sync all the time? I know I wouldn't and I didn't want to train my family how to do it.

As far as I can tell Samsung has had this problem for over 3 years now, but they STILL have it (but it is getting better). The question is WHY do they still have it at all? Certainly they should be able to fix a problem the DLP competitors do not have.

You can call me a Samsung basher, but that is not my purpose with these posts. My purpose is to inform people of a problem that has existed for over 3 years, and that still exists to a diminishing degree. I am spending my time trying to help people make informed decisions BEFORE they buy, and let them know it is not an issue with all DLPs, just Samsung. Ask someone that HAS a problem if they wish someone told them about the video game lag BEFORE they bought it, and I bet they all say yes.

I have talked very highly of their customer service being possibly the best out of the current mfg, and how nicely they look. At least I am talking about a brand/product I actually bought and wanted to like. Many people bash brands/products they have never owned or talk about a report that is over a 1 1/2 years old, that didn't even rate the product type (DLP) that they are bashing.

If you do not have any problem with your Samsung DLP, that is GREAT! I am very happy for you, and wish you continued happiness with it. But I have helped quite a few people WHO DO have a problem with Samsung's lip-sync and game/video lag issues. Both here and on other forums. I truly hope that Samsung DOES finally really fix this problem. If they do, we ALL benefit because that will give us more options and choices when we purchase, and of course less headaches by not having to dealing with these problems.

PS. I'm not a gamer so the video lag doesn't affect me. You are probably 100% on that, I've read about it in various posts.

**PFC5** · 07-14-2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyG

A dedicated audio optical or coax input would be nice. My Sammy HLR 4667 has Cablecard, HDMI, and on OTA tuner so I guess it took a while to catch up. Also two firewire inputs which I understand will carry a full surround signal also. I believe that is four or five ways/inputs to get a full encoded signal in and an optical out to carry it to your receiver/preamp.(Not sure about OTA audio, if it carries 5.1 or higher).

Insight is providing me the new Motorola box with two HD tuners, a DVR, HDMI out and SPDIF output. Component outs and a free Cablecard too so I am more than set.

In theory the lip sync shouldn't be a problem when you go into the set and then out to your receiver, shouldn't it? Hasn't been a problem yet for me and I have tested this thing several ways. If lip sync was still a problem you are setting the variable audio delay at the receiver for one audio input only and setting it. Shouldn't be much of a hassle, especially when you consider what it takes to set up one of these new receivers. Assignable inputs, speaker characteristics, room EQ microphones, etc.

This forum is cool in that you get a lot of peoples experiences. I wonder if the manufacturers have someone read this stuff, it would be their best feedback ever!

If you read about the lip-sync issues with Samsung DLPs you will find that the amount of the lag varies from NONE to A LOT, depending on the source, signal etc. I even saw it vary within the movie I was watching. It showed up really good with Pirates of the Caribbean on the DTS soundtrack, and a little on the DD soundtrack on the same disc. It varied back and forth as the movie was playing, depending on the scene I think.

Can you imagine having to change it DURING the course of watching a movie? My wife normally doesn't notice this kind of thing, but even she noticed it.

It did not do this with the other two brands of DLPs I tried that were hooked up the same way, with the same equipment, and the same cables.

I wish you good luck with your HDTV, and enjoy!

06-28-2005, 09:18 AM	#19
rbinck Administrator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Katy, Texas Posts: 12,338	Here are a couple of references on the Lip Sync problems: http://www.ibcnews.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=31013-0 http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/AV_lip_sync_delay.html Many manufacturers have gone to a single chip for the four main video processing requirements. By combining the A to D, Resolution Scaler, Space - Movement, and Interlace - Progressive conversion processors on a single chip, the delay can be controlled and reduced. This is accomplished by diverting processing to the operations required rather than the older process of having the signal go through a series of four processors one after another. Even still many digital displays use an intermeadiate video memory between the source and the display engine to allow for asyncronized video update (where the source framerate is different than the video engine update) which will add some delay due to the memory access. These new processors have a connection to the audio processor to set the audio delay to match the video delay. That is why some sets have problems and others don't. Last edited by rbinck; 06-28-2005 at 09:41 AM.

07-12-2005, 06:03 PM	#21
trm17118 HD Enthusiast Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Age: 50 Posts: 18	Samsung Lip Sync Follow up Thanks for all the links and guidance here guys. It was helpful and I think I fully understand it now. To make a very long story short, with my Samsung HLN617W I am still experiencing the audio syncronization problem. To get rid of it, Samsung has replaced the audio processing board and reset an internal delay setting. All this does is fix audio sync issues when using the the internal TV speakers. Per Samsung's web site, "when you use your home theater system to play sound, it gets complicated." That's putting it mildly. In short, Samsung has made a great HDTV with superior signal processing. The picture is great. What they didn't do, is consider that most people who buy an $3,500 HDTV, will have HTS and won't use the internal speakers. Therefore, audio goes from your STB to your amp and immediately plays sound while video goes to your HDTV where it does XX msec of processing thereby inducing the delay. Near as I can tell from reading your inputs and experimenting with my cable STB, is to set the STB to output video at the Samsung's native resolution of 1280 x 720 for all channels (HD and SD and in between). What this does is eliminate (for the most part) the audio sync issue. The downside is I'm using the relatively cheap and ineffective scaler of the General Instruments STB, not the very expensive and good looking one in the HDTV. HD channels look great, but SD looks worse when you use the cable STB scaler vs. the HDTV scaler. Bottom line, I'm not pleased and will complain again to Samsung. Don't know how much good it will do. Also switching from cable to Dish with a 924 receiver hoping the problem will be better there. Besides, I hate cable anyway.

07-14-2005, 09:16 AM	#26
JoeyG High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 128	HLR 4667....No problem so far I posted this in another thread earlier today. Have two inputs hooked up, one completely through the Denon 2805 and one split with video to the tv and sound to the denon. No lip sync either way and I looked for it. BTW, the Sammy HLR4667 has a digital optical out so it WILL carry a fully encoded surround sound signal to your receiver if that's the way you want to hook it up. Put everything into the set, then audio out and preserve your Dolby encoding. No lip sync this way according to Samsung and one button switching of vid and sound. Or, the Denon 2805 has the video switching to run everything into it and one cable out to your set. One button switching and no lip sync either. It also has a variable delay built in so no need to buy the Felton product for $250 should you have problems.

07-14-2005, 12:54 PM	#28
JoeyG High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 128	Correct! A dedicated audio optical or coax input would be nice. My Sammy HLR 4667 has Cablecard, HDMI, and on OTA tuner so I guess it took a while to catch up. Also two firewire inputs which I understand will carry a full surround signal also. I believe that is four or five ways/inputs to get a full encoded signal in and an optical out to carry it to your receiver/preamp.(Not sure about OTA audio, if it carries 5.1 or higher). Insight is providing me the new Motorola box with two HD tuners, a DVR, HDMI out and SPDIF output. Component outs and a free Cablecard too so I am more than set. In theory the lip sync shouldn't be a problem when you go into the set and then out to your receiver, shouldn't it? Hasn't been a problem yet for me and I have tested this thing several ways. If lip sync was still a problem you are setting the variable audio delay at the receiver for one audio input only and setting it. Shouldn't be much of a hassle, especially when you consider what it takes to set up one of these new receivers. Assignable inputs, speaker characteristics, room EQ microphones, etc. This forum is cool in that you get a lot of peoples experiences. I wonder if the manufacturers have someone read this stuff, it would be their best feedback ever!

06-24-2005, 02:09 PM	#16
RSawdey Mr. Wizard Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ferndale, Michigan Age: 61 Posts: 5,981	The workaround, as you mention, is to feed the TV a 720p signal, so no upconversion occurs.

06-28-2005, 09:05 AM	#18
trm17118 HD Enthusiast Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Age: 50 Posts: 18	Well, the local tech came by while I was at work and spent five minutes fiddling with what I assume was the service menus. I've watched for several days to see if the lip sync issue is still a problem and it appears to have been significantly diminished on HD channels and on SD channels it is somewhat acceptable but every now and then, SD channels seem to slip out of sync to an unacceptable level. I'm calling the technican back again.

06-28-2005, 01:53 PM	#20
RSawdey Mr. Wizard Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ferndale, Michigan Age: 61 Posts: 5,981	As you mention, SuperMod, a well designed TV will delay the audio to match the video processing delay... with such a TV, one would need to use the digital audio out to feed your SS amp, since it would be delay adjusted. But poor design has given us sets that will only pass out DD 2.0, since that's what the TV told the HDMI device to deliver. If only using the TV's speakers that would be appropriate, but they need some sort of setup switch to have DD 5.1 sent for pass-thru. Alternatively, most people run SPDIF direct from the STB to their SS amp - but now we've got video & audio processing occuring in different devices that don't communicate the required delay. Plus the station sync issues that SMPTE is working on...