Thank You Democrats/Communist -US state wants to tax TVs, video games to fight fat

[mshulman]

Originally Posted by junehhan

I hope i'm not offending anyone here, but my response to politicians that want to tax some of my favourite hobbies.........


FUCK YOU, YOU PIECE OF SHIT. TAXING SHIT IS THE ONLY THING YOU POLITICIANS ARE EVER GOOD AT, BECAUSE YOU SURE AS HELL CAN'T RUN A COUNTRY.

I agree.

The real problem is that every politician has an agenda. And the people that gave them money to get them elected have an agenda too and they expect that to be met. Too much is based around money when it should be based upon what's right for the country. Our government really needs to be run more like a business.

I also think they should cap spending on elections - it makes me sick to hear the numbers they spend.

[Pistol Pete]

I don't believe the legislation has any chance of passing and oftentimes government leaders will propose such legislation to open dialogue on subjects in need of discussion.

Someone mentioned the borders and crime and there is no question those are important subjects.

Someone else mentioned how they don't like governement performing any functions because they are dysfunctional and in many cases you would be right.

Fact of the matter is there are many problems facing us today and the dollar is spread much to thin to address them all.

When you think about the border, crime, environement, education, military, research in healthcare, and so many other high impact areas, you wonder how we can find the funds, time and effort for any of them.

We do as best we can and the springboard is you and I and governement working together.

We can't bury our heads in the sand and do nothing. We must speak out and let our voices be heard.

Frankly, I would much rather discuss childhood obesity than limiting abortion rights, creationism and prayer in schools.

However, where is the outcry for such foolhearty buffoonery when that happens.

Let's not be idealogues here guys and play fair with whats right.

Childhood obesity is a problem and needs to be addressed.

What the solution to the problem is multifactorial. Someone said parents and that is absolutely correct.

However, what if the parent is an idiot? Does governement have interest in the health and well being of it's citizens? You bet it does.

To preserve the next generation of leaders they must be first and foremost educated and healthy.

We should never limit ourselves in what we can do to achieve that goal.

An educated person makes better choices be it acts of kindess or knowing right from wrong.

Let's not forget that and play partisanship whenver someone of a party affiliation says something.

Right and wrong is not political. It is for everybody.

[BamaPanda]

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

Frankly, I would much rather discuss childhood obesity than limiting abortion rights, creationism and prayer in schools.

However, where is the outcry for such foolhearty buffoonery when that happens.

I think for the way that is worded you are referring to those items being " foolhearty buffoonery".

I tend to agree - in the way they are pursued. Religious men and women in general can be (but not always) awfully judgmental in the way they attempt to remedy some of the ills of society.

That in no way changes the fact (IMO) that we as a nation want our comfort, we want our things, and we want them now! We also do not want things to stand in the way of our comfort and self wants, so we ignore the implications that some things - such as abortion - have on our nation. We are so involved in satisfying the carnal side of our nature that we eschew the spiritual part - and hurdle quickly down a path of destruction.

We are a nation blessed by God - have been for years. Religion and selfishness have for years been eroding the link we have to that blessing. I am concerned that our pride and arrogance have brought us a lot closer to a pre-mature demise as a nation than many would imagine.

Just my 2c.

[gameguru1360]

I hate it when politicians find every feasible way of taxing enjoyment for the purpose of getting more revenue out from our pockets. There was that proposal for the state of california in that there would be a tax on regular soda to prevent fat kids from getting fatter, so it would promote kids to start buying more nutritional liquids such as water or milk or juice.

If these politicians want more money, why not target the bookworms?? Put a higher tax on those romantic novels to prevent housewives from having affairs!! Well that sounds extreme, but it could happen!

[Ntruder]

Originally Posted by junehhan

I hope i'm not offending anyone here, but my response to politicians that want to tax some of my favourite hobbies.........


FUCK YOU, YOU PIECE OF SHIT. TAXING SHIT IS THE ONLY THING YOU POLITICIANS ARE EVER GOOD AT, BECAUSE YOU SURE AS HELL CAN'T RUN A COUNTRY.

Taxes are a requirement for living in this country and using its infrastructure. Taxes are just a way of paying for things you've already used. The real trick is to make sure that people are accurately taxed according to the amount of public resources used. CEO's of huge corporations make their fortune by using about 500x the amount of public infrastructure than I do, but are they taxed at a rate 500x greater than I am? Nope. Thats what isn't fair.

[Ntruder]

Originally Posted by gameguru1360

I hate it when politicians find every feasible way of taxing enjoyment for the purpose of getting more revenue out from our pockets. There was that proposal for the state of california in that there would be a tax on regular soda to prevent fat kids from getting fatter, so it would promote kids to start buying more nutritional liquids such as water or milk or juice.

If these politicians want more money, why not target the bookworms?? Put a higher tax on those romantic novels to prevent housewives from having affairs!! Well that sounds extreme, but it could happen!

They aren't taxing things people enjoy to boost revenue. That is absurd. In this type of situation, they would be taxing something that has negatively impacted the community. The state of Wisconsin recently passed a $1 tobacco tax. Same idea, just not as extreme as the soda tax. Tobacco has negatively impacted the health of our community and boosted our health care costs, so it makes sense that tobacco users pay back a bit of what they have contributed to.

[junehhan]

Originally Posted by Ntruder

Taxes are a requirement for living in this country and using its infrastructure. Taxes are just a way of paying for things you've already used. The real trick is to make sure that people are accurately taxed according to the amount of public resources used. CEO's of huge corporations make their fortune by using about 500x the amount of public infrastructure than I do, but are they taxed at a rate 500x greater than I am? Nope. Thats what isn't fair.

This is where the libertarian side of me starts to rear its big head. The problem is that when you okay the government to start taxing one commodity that we enjoy, they'll start at 1% and then tax it more and more. Soon, they'll realize that they can start taxing other stuff too and it is a snowball effect they find more taxable stuff they can stick into the snowball. You give them an inch, and they will walk on you, stomp on you, and then steamroller over you with new stuff they will try to tax. They might start at video games and TV's, then next thing you know they'll try to tax computers, books, recievers, tools, etc..

They will come up with some haphazard reason just to tax more stuff. If it wern't for big CEO's with their visions, our economy may never have reached it's current state of power. Even the Chinese figured out 30 years ago that socialism and communism don't work, and they are arguably more capitalistic than America was 100 years ago. When you start taxing stuff, you stiffle the economy as there is always a loss in productivity and efficient allocation of profits and monies. To be more on the point though, what in the hell kind of infrastructure are you using if you choose to watch TV, play violent video games, or drink a bottle of diet coke? Hell, at least a lot of those items are last parts of the industry we really even have left in this country.

[Ntruder]

Originally Posted by junehhan

This is where the libertarian side of me starts to rear its big head. The problem is that when you okay the government to start taxing one commodity that we enjoy, they'll start at 1% and then tax it more and more. Soon, they'll realize that they can start taxing other stuff too and it is a snowball effect they find more taxable stuff they can stick into the snowball. You give them an inch, and they will walk on you, stomp on you, and then steamroller over you with new stuff they will try to tax. They might start at video games and TV's, then next thing you know they'll try to tax computers, books, recievers, tools, etc..

They will come up with some haphazard reason just to tax more stuff. If it wern't for big CEO's with their visions, our economy may never have reached it's current state of power. Even the Chinese figured out 30 years ago that socialism and communism don't work, and they are arguably more capitalistic than America was 100 years ago. When you start taxing stuff, you stiffle the economy as there is always a loss in productivity and efficient allocation of profits and monies. To be more on the point though, what in the hell kind of infrastructure are you using if you choose to watch TV, play violent video games, or drink a bottle of diet coke? Hell, at least a lot of those items are last parts of the industry we really even have left in this country.

I don't think you really caught the point of what I said. The point is, a whole lot of shit is owned by the government, and we use it everyday. When we pay taxes, we are basically paying for things we've already used. Otherwise you'd have to pay before you got onto a public road, or pay everyday you went to a public school, etc.

The Libertarian perspective would simply put everything in the hands of private corporations. But don't be fooled. The money to use this stuff has to come from somewhere. Some Libertarians think that without the IRS, you'd suddenly make all kinds of extra money. Nope. You'd still pay for the same stuff your taxes pay for, and now you'd probably be paying MORE. Why more? Because private corporations operate FOR profit, government does not. This is why private health care costs our country SOOOOOO much more than any other country that has a government funded program. Remove the profits from the equation, and you drop the total costs

The above paragraph doesn't even TOUCH all the ways that private, unregulated corporations will infringe on our Democracy... That is a whole other can of worms

[Allin4greeN]

Last time I looked, the United States was the poorest rich country in the world... We're in debt up to our eyeballs and we what do we do? Print more money... It's an utterly backasswords approach.

During the last state legislator election in PA, a substantial turnover in incumbents occurred because they had the audacity to vote into law, unconstitutionally, an outrageous pay raise for themselves. Funny how both sides of the aisle could agree on that so easily. They even "bribed" the judicial branch by approving outrageous raises for sitting judges. No judge in his/her right mind would find the pay raises unconstitutional with their own paycheck on the line... Our transportation infrastructure (roads, bridges, public transportation) is crumbling around us in PA, and the best solution our representatives can come up with is to pass bills chock full of pork, that address the needs of only a few specific municipalities. Sure, they've toyed with plans from privatizing our current toll roads to creating new stretches of tolls but, nothing has been accomplished that addresses the issue on a state level. And our Governor has simply redirected general funds to pay for his own pet projects in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

Politics as usual is a depressing state of affairs, and there's no end in sight. It's just the way our system has devolved. Nowadays, when Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, his core values do not stay intact, and he returns as bent as the rest of 'em.

IMO, our ills aren't going to be solved by ponying up more taxes for anything. Our representatives are already operating under a for profit model. The problem is, it's for their profit, whether it's in political capital or old fashioned cold hard cash. Never mind private corporations infringing upon democracy some time in the future, they've already bought and paid for that privilege today. Only pollyannaish rhetoric from vote hungry politicians is left to appease (dupe) the public.

Does anyone here aged 40 or younger anticipate seeing a dime from entitlement programs like Social Security? Do you think universal health care has a chance in hell? If so, there's a nice stretch of road in PA I'd like to sell you. The way I see it, I'm paying taxes so that babyboomers can drain the coffers dry. Not their fault really, just the inevitable playing out of a government endorsed Ponzi scheme. Our only hope is if we hit rock bottom. Then we might actually have a need for real leaders.

Yes, you may call me a cynic

[oblioman]

the biggest problem of all is that we have created politicians instead of true statesman. Me does consider that we live in the greatest country in the world, enjoy freedoms that many do not enjoy. We be fat and spoiled. We bitch when our cell phones are out of the area, then bitch about our cell phone bills. We bitch about our cable bill (me be guilty), but demand more HD content. We certainly live the good life, and it is up to us to make it better for our children and grandchildren. All me can really say is to get involved. Be adamant about your convictions. Share your convictions. Be fair and open minded to other peoples thoughts and ideas. Live your life with the idea that you can make a difference. Certainly we would all like less government intrusion, lower taxes, better accountability of our tax dollars. Get involved. Our government can pinpoint one cow with mad cow disease, out of hundreds of thousand cattle produced across 10 states - but we cannot find millions of illegal aliens. We have the resources and energy to recoup our status as a world leader - as long as the hard working American public gets involved. Voice your opinion. Be smart, be strong. Many politicians that move on to Washington started at the local level. Remind your locals of the Sunshine laws, and that you will not abide hidden agendas. Me rant be finished. Thank You.

[junehhan]

That's why I classify myself as a neo-pseudo-libertarian. Many hardcore libertarians border too close to anarchism for me to be comfortable with *cough Ron Paul cough*. My point is that a line must be drawn at some point. The problem is that private firms have always operated more efficiently that public firms because there is a profit motivation. Profit is one intensely strong motivating factor to make processes more efficient, and to cut down on the wasteful inefficient beauracracy that you get in public not for profit institutions. If profit is not a motivation, what does motivate you to become more efficient, work harder, and waste less resources when your job isn't on the line? Notice how sending packages through mail got much faster and more efficient when the government finally allowed competitive shipping services to operate? The USPS system was rather horrible before they actually had to compete with the private sector. However, the private sector is not appropriate for everything which I will agree.

Because of the profit motive, it is entirely possible for something to be actually cheaper in the private sector simply because everything is operating so much more efficiently. This is especially true if an industry is competitive. Obviously a monopoly is not an optimal outcome, which is why we regulate the few industries we have that are monopolized(natural resources).

But as far as taxes go, the market mechanism does a very good job of allocating resources and services for instances where it is appropriate. The problem is that the more you tax, the less efficient the allocation of resources are. If I could ever figure out how to use Powerpoint, I could put together a few slides that would express my belief and unique perspective on life. I an unique because I am not strictly democrat, republican, or even libertarian. I consider myself a monetarist, but doesn't mean that I don't also agree with some Keynesians and their rational expectations variants.

Is it just me, or am I the only person rather pessimistic about this bipartisan tax rebate deal? I think we could be greatly destabilizing our economy for a temporary fix..........

Originally Posted by Ntruder

I don't think you really caught the point of what I said. The point is, a whole lot of shit is owned by the government, and we use it everyday. When we pay taxes, we are basically paying for things we've already used. Otherwise you'd have to pay before you got onto a public road, or pay everyday you went to a public school, etc.

The Libertarian perspective would simply put everything in the hands of private corporations. But don't be fooled. The money to use this stuff has to come from somewhere. Some Libertarians think that without the IRS, you'd suddenly make all kinds of extra money. Nope. You'd still pay for the same stuff your taxes pay for, and now you'd probably be paying MORE. Why more? Because private corporations operate FOR profit, government does not. This is why private health care costs our country SOOOOOO much more than any other country that has a government funded program. Remove the profits from the equation, and you drop the total costs

The above paragraph doesn't even TOUCH all the ways that private, unregulated corporations will infringe on our Democracy... That is a whole other can of worms

[Ntruder]

Originally Posted by Allin4greeN

Last time I looked, the United States was the poorest rich country in the world... We're in debt up to our eyeballs and we what do we do? Print more money... It's an utterly backasswords approach.

During the last state legislator election in PA, a substantial turnover in incumbents occurred because they had the audacity to vote into law, unconstitutionally, an outrageous pay raise for themselves. Funny how both sides of the aisle could agree on that so easily. They even "bribed" the judicial branch by approving outrageous raises for sitting judges. No judge in his/her right mind would find the pay raises unconstitutional with their own paycheck on the line... Our transportation infrastructure (roads, bridges, public transportation) is crumbling around us in PA, and the best solution our representatives can come up with is to pass bills chock full of pork, that address the needs of only a few specific municipalities. Sure, they've toyed with plans from privatizing our current toll roads to creating new stretches of tolls but, nothing has been accomplished that addresses the issue on a state level. And our Governor has simply redirected general funds to pay for his own pet projects in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

Politics as usual is a depressing state of affairs, and there's no end in sight. It's just the way our system has devolved. Nowadays, when Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, his core values do not stay intact, and he returns as bent as the rest of 'em.

IMO, our ills aren't going to be solved by ponying up more taxes for anything. Our representatives are already operating under a for profit model. The problem is, it's for their profit, whether it's in political capital or old fashioned cold hard cash. Never mind private corporations infringing upon democracy some time in the future, they've already bought and paid for that privilege today. Only pollyannaish rhetoric from vote hungry politicians is left to appease (dupe) the public.

Does anyone here aged 40 or younger anticipate seeing a dime from entitlement programs like Social Security? Do you think universal health care has a chance in hell? If so, there's a nice stretch of road in PA I'd like to sell you. The way I see it, I'm paying taxes so that babyboomers can drain the coffers dry. Not their fault really, just the inevitable playing out of a government endorsed Ponzi scheme. Our only hope is if we hit rock bottom. Then we might actually have a need for real leaders.

Yes, you may call me a cynic

We need to be more positive than this. There are ways out, but they require a total transformation of the way our government is run. The removal of private interests from the political process is paramount

[Ntruder]

Originally Posted by junehhan

That's why I classify myself as a neo-pseudo-libertarian. Many hardcore libertarians border too close to anarchism for me to be comfortable with *cough Ron Paul cough*. My point is that a line must be drawn at some point. The problem is that private firms have always operated more efficiently that public firms because there is a profit motivation. Profit is one intensely strong motivating factor to make processes more efficient, and to cut down on the wasteful inefficient beauracracy that you get in public not for profit institutions. If profit is not a motivation, what does motivate you to become more efficient, work harder, and waste less resources when your job isn't on the line? Notice how sending packages through mail got much faster and more efficient when the government finally allowed competitive shipping services to operate? The USPS system was rather horrible before they actually had to compete with the private sector. However, the private sector is not appropriate for everything which I will agree.

Because of the profit motive, it is entirely possible for something to be actually cheaper in the private sector simply because everything is operating so much more efficiently. This is especially true if an industry is competitive. Obviously a monopoly is not an optimal outcome, which is why we regulate the few industries we have that are monopolized(natural resources).

You're absolutely right here, and this is why so many former government functions have been moved to the private sector. However, I strongly believe that many if not all industries need a strict balance between "free" market operation and government regulation.

If you're familiar with laissez-faire economics, the whole idea behind free markets is that an unregulated free market can work better, and more efficiently, and they will naturally work in the best interest of the consumer. (See Adam Smith's "invisible hand" from Wealth of Nations) But there is one key point that people forget: In order for a free market to operate in the best interest of the consumers, there needs to be (near) perfect information. We do not have perfect information. Our media channels are utterly fucked. They are owned by huge conglomerates and they control what information is delivered to consumers. Just look at talk radio for example. Our country right now is increasingly moving left of center. Yet, talk radio is dominated by conservative talk. Like 10:1 dominated. And our country is certainly not 10:1 conservative vs liberal. Probably more like 5:5 or 4:6 with more moderates leaning left. Another example would be the news. Notice how during these presidential campaigns, the candidates who've raised the most money were the ones who got 95% of the media coverage? Rudy Guliani was always the #1 Republican candidate in all media coverage, and the bum placed 6th in just about every state. Now he's done. Why? Because he raised a ton of money: money that would be spent on advertisements with these media companies.

Point is, without perfect information being delivered to consumers, large corporations are allowed to exploit consumers. According to laissez-faire economics, if a corporation operates against the interests of the consumer, consumers will not buy their products. But that certainly isn't the case in America right now, is it?

But as far as taxes go, the market mechanism does a very good job of allocating resources and services for instances where it is appropriate. The problem is that the more you tax, the less efficient the allocation of resources are. If I could ever figure out how to use Powerpoint, I could put together a few slides that would express my belief and unique perspective on life. I an unique because I am not strictly democrat, republican, or even libertarian. I consider myself a monetarist, but doesn't mean that I don't also agree with some Keynesians and their rational expectations variants.

Is it just me, or am I the only person rather pessimistic about this bipartisan tax rebate deal? I think we could be greatly destabilizing our economy for a temporary fix..........

I see where you're going here, and I think you have a good point. At first, I got the impression that you were just bitching because you don't like paying tax. I haven't quite comprised a perfect solution to this huge economic crisis that our nation has been heading to since about 1980. At first I leaned toward new deal style economics, but the sad truth is that the nature of the corporation has changed. CEO's used to be corporate statesmen. Industries worked in oligopolistic fashion and had the security of knowing they wouldn't be affected by undercutting competition, but that hampered innovation. I don't know if its possible to return to that style of market from the position we are in now.

To answer your other question: From an outsiders perspective, I am 100% against this tax rebate deal. Its completely pointless, and will do absolutely nothing to help our economy long term. Handing money to consumers helps people short term (like for a couple months), but where is that money going to go? Abroad most likely. But on the other hand, its very difficult to NOT be happy about getting a $600 check, even if you know its completely pointless and won't help anything.

I think the underlying problem in this country is that corporations are allowed to operate at too high of a profit margin. Everything is about bottom line, and nothing is about our country anymore. If a corporation has to pay their employees another dollar per hour, or has to pay a slightly higher corporate income tax, they'd rather relocate abroad than pay it, and that is just wrong, in my opinion.

The Corporate statesmen are gone....

[Allin4greeN]

Originally Posted by Ntruder

We need to be more positive than this. There are ways out, but they require a total transformation of the way our government is run. The removal of private interests from the political process is paramount

I agree, there are certainly positives to our system of governance but, sometimes an alarmist perspective can be useful.

With regard to transforming the governance process, there-in lies the problem, IMO. There currently exists little or no incentive for transformation. Only when the voter base is charged to act at the polls, and our representatives' re-elections are threatened, is there any hope for change at the scale you're suggesting. I just don't see that happening on a national level any time soon.

Originally Posted by Ntruder

...From an outsiders perspective, I am 100% against this tax rebate deal. Its completely pointless, and will do absolutely nothing to help our economy long term. Handing money to consumers helps people short term (like for a couple months), but where is that money going to go? Abroad most likely. But on the other hand, its very difficult to NOT be happy about getting a $600 check, even if you know its completely pointless and won't help anything...

Agreed. It could be argued that the government caused our most recent economic tailspin to begin with, by incentivizing unnatural growth in the housing industry. And now the FBI is going to investigate the "cause" of the sub-prime debacle?!

Originally Posted by Ntruder

...I think the underlying problem in this country is that corporations are allowed to operate at too high of a profit margin. Everything is about bottom line, and nothing is about our country anymore. If a corporation has to pay their employees another dollar per hour, or has to pay a slightly higher corporate income tax, they'd rather relocate abroad than pay it, and that is just wrong, in my opinion...

NAFTA certainly had a part to play in this...

[Ntruder]

Originally Posted by Allin4greeN

I agree, there are certainly positives to our system of governance but, sometimes an alarmist perspective can be useful.

As long as it serves some constructive purpose, yes. Maybe to get people to realize the severity of things.

With regard to transforming the governance process, there-in lies the problem, IMO. There currently exists little or no incentive for transformation. Only when the voter base is charged to act at the polls, and our representatives' re-elections are threatened, is there any hope for change at the scale you're suggesting. I just don't see that happening on a national level any time soon.

Yeah, I don't know. If I knew how to make things the way I think they need to be, I'd run for public office.

Agreed. It could be argued that the government caused our most recent economic tailspin to begin with, by incentivizing unnatural growth in the housing industry. And now the FBI is going to investigate the "cause" of the sub-prime debacle?!

The transformation to Supercapitalism... You are spot on. I'm reading a book about this as we speak
http://www.amazon.com/Supercapitalis.../dp/0307265617

NAFTA certainly had a part to play in this...

Amen... One of the most devastating and damaging pieces of legislation to ever hit our country. This single fact alone (Bill Clinton not fighting/vetoing NAFTA) is why Hillary Clinton is my absolute last choice Democratic candidate.