WHY did you lose your stations?

electrictroy · 06-26-2009, 08:18 AM

For those of you who lost analog stations during the DTV transition, have you determined why you lost those stations? If "yes" please share your experience. The stations I lost are for the following reasons:

- moved to UHF (WMAR)
- distributed transmitter (WTVE)
- not enough power (WPVI6,WGAL8*,WHTM10,WBAL11,WHYY12,WJZ13,WITF33,WB FF45,WFMZ)

That last problem could easily be fixed by the FCC but they seem unwilling to do it. They don't want to admit they made a mistake underpowering stations, but if they simply restored power to ~50% of the old analog levels, most of my lost stations would be visible again.

* Not lost - just prone to lots of freezing

JB Antennaman · 06-26-2009, 09:31 AM

If you read my posts - as to how the signal is transmitted and how the signal works, you would know that it is not the FCC's fault.

What you propose would make some stations into super stations.

They would be so powerful that you would not be able to receive other stations because the stations closest to you would over power the other stations.

You have to have some compassion for the poor fool that lives near a television transmitter. He has no choice in what he can receive - because either he built his house in the wrong place or the television station chose his place to build their antenna.

The FCC does make small allowances if it is necessary to give the stations additional power, if it is justified.

What you are asking - would cost the television station millions of dollars a year when you figure a energy consumption of about $18,000 a day for the transmitter at their present power level of some stations. Thats $6,570,000 a year in electricity for their transmitter now, vs. $9,855,000 for your idea.

Television stations are run on revenue, the revenue comes from used car dealers and burger joints and furniture stores. There is only so many ways to slice the pie before you get to the point of where there is nothing left.

You can only ask so many dollars per a commercial from a advertiser - before the price of the advertisements gets to high and the advertiser has to leave and go elsewhere.

A car dealer in Pittsburgh is not going to want to pay to transmit to Punxsutawney Pennsylvania - just because you like to watch their news reports. He is out to sell cars and he knows that you will not drive 80 miles to come to his show room to buy a used car or a new car and so he doesn't care if you can get their signals because it is of no benefit to him.

Where as I do drive to Pittsburgh and the dealers all knows me by name due to the fact that I was in the used car business for a number of years and I bought new and used cars off those dealers and they know that I am going to come back and they know that I am going to refer all my friends to do business with them in the future.

But people refuse to spend their money wisely and don't always listen to what I have to say and they will go to car lot X and pay $1000 more for the same vehicle - because they want it today and they don't have the cash to pay it in full and they don't care how much it costs, just how much is the monthly payment.

If you are in the market area of the stations you are having problems with, I would be more than willing to suggest a pre amplifier that would help your cause and a more sensitive antenna, and rotor that would help to position your antenna properly.

But if your goal is to watch The Wheel of Fortune from a station 100 miles away in the middle of a mountain range in Colorado, it's not going to happen.

NonMcTubber · 06-26-2009, 12:42 PM

Excellent answer JBantennaman and a good reality check.

But question, even if a given station gets permission to increase power, is it just a matter of increased electrical costs or would many stations also have to spend big bucks to upgrade their transmitting equipment?

I would think they bought something rated at X watts where X is some small level below what they are using now, but going to 2X watts may not be able to handle that amount of power.

I have one I would like to get 70 mile away station that is a forget about it too weak at its current wattage, they have an in hand FCC permit to do a 4X increase in wattage, but they flat out told me they can't afford it.

hoopitup2000 · 06-26-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NonMcTubber

But question, even if a given station gets permission to increase power, is it just a matter of increased electrical costs or would many stations also have to spend big bucks to upgrade their transmitting equipment?

I would bet that many stations "can" increase power if needed using the same equipment.

WWBT-DT 12 in Richmond, VA is currently running only 6 kw on VHF 12. They have lost quite a few OTA viewers, but do seem greatly concerned. The station manager has revealed that the transmitter is capable of 30kw, but they are restricted to that lower power level because of interference concerns.

Come on FCC!! Put down the calculators, and graphs for a moment, and run a short trial period and see what happens. Let the OTA crowd decide whether or not the interference calculations have been over-estimated.

rinardman · 06-26-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

For those of you who lost analog stations during the DTV transition, have you determined why you lost those stations?

I lost all of my analog stations.

Why?

They stopped broadcasting. They have been telling me for years they were going to stop, so I was ready. No big deal.

electrictroy · 06-26-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NonMcTubber

Excellent answer JBantennaman and a good reality check.

Totally disagree. Losuy answer which perpetuates the idea that a BLANK screen is "better" than giving people an image. If I can't see any ABC affiliate, not even WHTM10 just 40 miles away, then something's wrong. If viewers inside Philadelphia can't see WPVI6, which is only a few miles away, then something's wrong. If viewers halfway-between Baltimore/D.C. can't see channels 7, 9, 11, or 13... something's wrong.

The FCC already gave WPVI approval to quadruple their power levels. The FCC should do the same for WHTM, WBAL, WZJ, and the other call letters I provided.

If increasing WBAL-11's power means their signal "collides" with WBRE-11 somewhere in Hillbilly Country PA, so be it. Nobody lives there and even if they do, they should be able to use a directional antenna to block-out the interference and "focus" on the station they desire. (BTW WBRE-11 is 30 kilowatts while WBAL-11 is only 5. That makes zero sense. WBAL should be boosted to 30 kilowatts too.)

JB Antennaman · 06-26-2009, 03:58 PM

WPSU - which is affiliated with Penn State University, has it's transmitter somewhere near Boone Mountain - way back in the woods, not along RT 322 like most other transmitters in their area above Clearfield PA.

The FCC dictates that you have to have your transmitter within so many miles of the stations transmitters home town.
It's something like 12 miles.

WPSU's physical address is State College Pa, but their transmitter address is Clearfield Pa.

Moving the transmitter to a particular area helps the transmitter to transmit further in one direction - towards your goal market area.

Their antenna height above average terrain is 412.8 meters or 1354 feet.

Their antenna height above mean sea level is 950.6 meters or 3119 feet.

Their antenna height above ground level is 289.1 meters or 948.5 feet.
Their height

If you look back at my other posts, you would read how the height of the antenna above average terrain is factored into the rating of power of the transmitter.

To put it in perspective,downtown Clearfield Pa has a elevation of 1114 feet above sea level.

That means that the antenna is roughly 2000 feet in elevation higher than the town of Clearfield PA.

When WPSU turned on their Digital transmitter to full power, they were transmitting at 1000 Kw.
The FCC did a field study and came back and told them that they had to reduce their signal back to 835 Kw. because that was all they were licensed for.

At 1000 Kw., you could receive with little problems, their signal in Warren and Bradford Pa - 80 miles away.

The other day it was announced that the state of Pennsylvania was not going to give them any grant money and that they would have to stand on their own two feet. Since then they have laid off 8 people and have petitioned the FCC to allow them to cut their signal back to 810 Kw.

Does that answer your question?

A loss of $800,000 grant money caused them to loose 8 employees, do more pledge drives, cut programming, and cut their signal back to 810 KW.

JB Antennaman · 06-26-2009, 04:08 PM

Can they easily turn the power down or up - YEP.

People should watch the movie UHF.

Read their Bio - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHF_(film)

A inside joke of 14 KQV a old Pittsburgh Am Radio station was when they did a skit one morning on the radio about how someone in Pittsburgh opened a television station on channel 1.

There is no channel 1 in the USA.

They told their listeners that you could receive it if you held the knob of the television between the UHF and channel 2.

People ran to the television stores to try to get converter boxes so they could watch channel 1.

Or the Fox viewing position on Married With Children. When Married With Children came out - it was on Fox and most of the Fox stations were on low power UHF and people had to do all sorts of strange things to receive it. Family's holding hands and touching the rabbit ear antenna for a half an hour at a time or putting tin foil on the end of the antenna to produce a little more gain so they could receive the channel.

smdp1 · 06-26-2009, 11:45 PM

3 quick things....
1. they were paying for the higher power analog electricity and a digital transmitter at most stations, now they have cut off the analog....thus savings...even if they up the power to 1 Megawatt for most stations in my area (most are and were uhf)

2. As for the cci, it was very bad here last year with some channels being occupied by 3 different stations in 3 different directions and yet with the right antenna I could separate them out....if I had lived closer to my closest DMA it wouldn't have been a problem anyway as even the closest of the major news networks is 60 miles out and I had no trouble sorting them out. Also supposedly the higher power analogs were already setup to avoid interferance so even if they ran 100% of the old power levels there still shouldn't be a problem as rf is rf whether digital or not doesn't matter when cci is involed.

3. They missed a really good opportunity here to expand viewing areas without increasing power levels if all stations had stuck with their original analog assignments and were allowed to keep their old power levels.

now for a question,
Why is a radio station operating on a .2MHZ bandwith allowed to run 100kw when a tv station on a higher frequency (WSMV rf 10) is only allowed 60kw on 6MHZ bandwith....now anyone who has ever fooled with rf at all knows that the more power you can focus on your primary frequency the better the efficiency of the transmitter and the farther you can reach (old cb addict)....the rest is just wasted....well that tells me is that when an fm radio station is pumping 100kw in to .2MHZ its a more powerfull transmission by far than 60kw on 6MHZ bandwidth where the power is spread over the whole dang band width...and AM at that which takes a little more juice to overcome the associated interferance issues....

my point: increasing the power of a tv station is NOT absurd as long as it is at least 120 miles away from the nearest full power station on the same uhf channel and 200 miles for vhf channels....simple...seen it done on full power analog here for years.

jim5506 · 06-26-2009, 11:55 PM

I don't know where you got your idea that the transmitter for a station had to be close to i'ts home town, but out in the west there are dozens of exceptions to the "rule".

Southeastern NM has 3 primary stations, CBS and NBC homed out of Roswell and ABC used to be homed out of carlsbad, but now a satellite of an Albuquerque station.

The two Roswell stations have transmitters some 35-40 miles east and southeast of Roswell and the Carlsbad station has a transmitter 35 miles north.

The primary reason being that these stations cover thousands of square miles over sparsely populated territory covering 10-12 towns with populations from 100 to 35,000. By centrally locating the transmitters they can cover almost the entire area (an 80 mile radius) with three VHF stations.

In larger population centers it makes sense to locate transmitters near the home city, but in sparsely populated areas transmitters are locatedto purposely cover as many viewers as possible. Locating transmitters in any one city in southeastern NM would deny any coverage to most of the rest of the population.

JB Antennaman · 06-27-2009, 08:58 AM

Note - I said hometown for the transmitter - not the station address.

Clearfield Pa is about 40 miles from State College.

Loves2Watch · 06-27-2009, 11:55 AM

I didn't loose any stations but instead gained some as I was prepared for the switch by installing the proper antenna two years ago.

teds12 · 06-27-2009, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loves2Watch

I didn't loose any stations but instead gained some as I was prepared for the switch by installing the proper antenna two years ago.

Well good for you!
But, let me venture to say that you've in the minority! It's a shame that so many here that had done the 4-bay and 8-bay thing over the past couple of years got shafted so badly by this Hi-VHF 6-12-09 shift disaster!

BrianO · 06-27-2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teds12

Well good for you!
But, let me venture to say that you've in the minority! It's a shame that so many here that had done the 4-bay and 8-bay thing over the past couple of years got shafted so badly by this Hi-VHF 6-12-09 shift disaster!

Among regular posters on these forums, I doubt that Loves2Watch is in the minority in this respect.

People "here" should have been aware of what was happening in their own viewing areas as far as the VHF/UHF mix is concerned because there have been hundreds of posts "here" in the last few years about post-transition channel switches. People have been advised to consult TVFool, etc. to see what their post-transiton situation would be. The FCC published their "final" list of post-transition channel assignments in August 2007 and there were many posts linking to the list (available in both PDF and MS Excel formats) on the FCC web site. The availabilty of these lists was made known to many people "here"by other posters. On top of that, many people with questions about their own viewing area were given a complete list of stations that were shifting channels in their area by other posters.

Just because you were asleep at the wheel does not mean that others here were as well. Methinks you protest far too much.

Loves2Watch · 06-28-2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianO

Among regular posters on these forums, I doubt that Loves2Watch is in the minority in this respect.

People "here" should have been aware of what was happening in their own viewing areas as far as the VHF/UHF mix is concerned because there have been hundreds of posts "here" in the last few years about post-transition channel switches. People have been advised to consult TVFool, etc. to see what their post-transiton situation would be. The FCC published their "final" list of post-transition channel assignments in August 2007 and there were many posts linking to the list (available in both PDF and MS Excel formats) on the FCC web site. The availabilty of these lists was made known to many people "here"by other posters. On top of that, many people with questions about their own viewing area were given a complete list of stations that were shifting channels in their area by other posters.

Just because you were asleep at the wheel does not mean that others here were as well. Methinks you protest far too much.

You got it and let me add that electrictroy was one of the members who discussed this many times and was informed of the proper methods/antenna selections to make. It was his decision to not heed the advice given, because then, as now he just wanted to argue his faulty point to no end.

06-26-2009, 08:18 AM	#1
electrictroy Wii 480p looks good to me Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,002	WHY did you lose your stations? For those of you who lost analog stations during the DTV transition, have you determined why you lost those stations? If "yes" please share your experience. The stations I lost are for the following reasons: - moved to UHF (WMAR) - distributed transmitter (WTVE) - not enough power (WPVI6,WGAL8,WHTM10,WBAL11,WHYY12,WJZ13,WITF33,WB FF45,WFMZ) That last problem could easily be fixed by the FCC but they seem unwilling to do it. They don't want to admit they made a mistake underpowering stations, but if they simply restored power to ~50% of the old analog levels, most of my lost stations would be visible again. Not lost - just prone to lots of freezing __________________ My internet cost == $15/month. My cellphone cost == $5/month. My television cost = Free! Last edited by electrictroy; 06-26-2009 at 08:24 AM.

06-26-2009, 12:42 PM	#3
NonMcTubber High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 898	Excellent answer JBantennaman and a good reality check. But question, even if a given station gets permission to increase power, is it just a matter of increased electrical costs or would many stations also have to spend big bucks to upgrade their transmitting equipment? I would think they bought something rated at X watts where X is some small level below what they are using now, but going to 2X watts may not be able to handle that amount of power. I have one I would like to get 70 mile away station that is a forget about it too weak at its current wattage, they have an in hand FCC permit to do a 4X increase in wattage, but they flat out told me they can't afford it. __________________ High definition is not the definition of my life. But knowledge is power and HD does have some potential to increase content variety and choices.

06-26-2009, 03:58 PM	#7
JB Antennaman High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Jefferson County - Pennsylvania, high atop a hill Posts: 723	WPSU - which is affiliated with Penn State University, has it's transmitter somewhere near Boone Mountain - way back in the woods, not along RT 322 like most other transmitters in their area above Clearfield PA. The FCC dictates that you have to have your transmitter within so many miles of the stations transmitters home town. It's something like 12 miles. WPSU's physical address is State College Pa, but their transmitter address is Clearfield Pa. Moving the transmitter to a particular area helps the transmitter to transmit further in one direction - towards your goal market area. Their antenna height above average terrain is 412.8 meters or 1354 feet. Their antenna height above mean sea level is 950.6 meters or 3119 feet. Their antenna height above ground level is 289.1 meters or 948.5 feet. Their height If you look back at my other posts, you would read how the height of the antenna above average terrain is factored into the rating of power of the transmitter. To put it in perspective,downtown Clearfield Pa has a elevation of 1114 feet above sea level. That means that the antenna is roughly 2000 feet in elevation higher than the town of Clearfield PA. When WPSU turned on their Digital transmitter to full power, they were transmitting at 1000 Kw. The FCC did a field study and came back and told them that they had to reduce their signal back to 835 Kw. because that was all they were licensed for. At 1000 Kw., you could receive with little problems, their signal in Warren and Bradford Pa - 80 miles away. The other day it was announced that the state of Pennsylvania was not going to give them any grant money and that they would have to stand on their own two feet. Since then they have laid off 8 people and have petitioned the FCC to allow them to cut their signal back to 810 Kw. Does that answer your question? A loss of $800,000 grant money caused them to loose 8 employees, do more pledge drives, cut programming, and cut their signal back to 810 KW. Last edited by JB Antennaman; 06-27-2009 at 09:01 AM.

06-26-2009, 11:45 PM	#9
smdp1 digital DX'n is alive Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Greenhill, AL. Posts: 668	3 quick things.... 1. they were paying for the higher power analog electricity and a digital transmitter at most stations, now they have cut off the analog....thus savings...even if they up the power to 1 Megawatt for most stations in my area (most are and were uhf) 2. As for the cci, it was very bad here last year with some channels being occupied by 3 different stations in 3 different directions and yet with the right antenna I could separate them out....if I had lived closer to my closest DMA it wouldn't have been a problem anyway as even the closest of the major news networks is 60 miles out and I had no trouble sorting them out. Also supposedly the higher power analogs were already setup to avoid interferance so even if they ran 100% of the old power levels there still shouldn't be a problem as rf is rf whether digital or not doesn't matter when cci is involed. 3. They missed a really good opportunity here to expand viewing areas without increasing power levels if all stations had stuck with their original analog assignments and were allowed to keep their old power levels. now for a question, Why is a radio station operating on a .2MHZ bandwith allowed to run 100kw when a tv station on a higher frequency (WSMV rf 10) is only allowed 60kw on 6MHZ bandwith....now anyone who has ever fooled with rf at all knows that the more power you can focus on your primary frequency the better the efficiency of the transmitter and the farther you can reach (old cb addict)....the rest is just wasted....well that tells me is that when an fm radio station is pumping 100kw in to .2MHZ its a more powerfull transmission by far than 60kw on 6MHZ bandwidth where the power is spread over the whole dang band width...and AM at that which takes a little more juice to overcome the associated interferance issues.... my point: increasing the power of a tv station is NOT absurd as long as it is at least 120 miles away from the nearest full power station on the same uhf channel and 200 miles for vhf channels....simple...seen it done on full power analog here for years. __________________ my antenna is bigger than yours...lol couldn't resist Last edited by smdp1; 06-27-2009 at 12:05 AM.

06-26-2009, 11:55 PM	#10
jim5506 Yellow Submarine Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 2,561	I don't know where you got your idea that the transmitter for a station had to be close to i'ts home town, but out in the west there are dozens of exceptions to the "rule". Southeastern NM has 3 primary stations, CBS and NBC homed out of Roswell and ABC used to be homed out of carlsbad, but now a satellite of an Albuquerque station. The two Roswell stations have transmitters some 35-40 miles east and southeast of Roswell and the Carlsbad station has a transmitter 35 miles north. The primary reason being that these stations cover thousands of square miles over sparsely populated territory covering 10-12 towns with populations from 100 to 35,000. By centrally locating the transmitters they can cover almost the entire area (an 80 mile radius) with three VHF stations. In larger population centers it makes sense to locate transmitters near the home city, but in sparsely populated areas transmitters are locatedto purposely cover as many viewers as possible. Locating transmitters in any one city in southeastern NM would deny any coverage to most of the rest of the population. __________________ Programming: Dish HD Absolute with 0.01 Cinemax Displays: Sony VPH-D50Q - 7 ft on the wall; Hitachi 57R59 Receivers: DishNetwork ViP722k; DishNetwork ViP211K; DishNetwork ViP211; DishNetwork 301; 2 - TiVo Series 2's; Accurian 6000; Samsung SIR-T351; Panasonic ShowStopper 2000; ATI HDTV Wonder Dish 1000 on 110,119,129; Dish 500 on 61.5; DPP44 Sony 80GB PS3; Toshiba HD-DVD

06-26-2009, 09:31 AM	#2
JB Antennaman High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Jefferson County - Pennsylvania, high atop a hill Posts: 723	If you read my posts - as to how the signal is transmitted and how the signal works, you would know that it is not the FCC's fault. What you propose would make some stations into super stations. They would be so powerful that you would not be able to receive other stations because the stations closest to you would over power the other stations. You have to have some compassion for the poor fool that lives near a television transmitter. He has no choice in what he can receive - because either he built his house in the wrong place or the television station chose his place to build their antenna. The FCC does make small allowances if it is necessary to give the stations additional power, if it is justified. What you are asking - would cost the television station millions of dollars a year when you figure a energy consumption of about $18,000 a day for the transmitter at their present power level of some stations. Thats $6,570,000 a year in electricity for their transmitter now, vs. $9,855,000 for your idea. Television stations are run on revenue, the revenue comes from used car dealers and burger joints and furniture stores. There is only so many ways to slice the pie before you get to the point of where there is nothing left. You can only ask so many dollars per a commercial from a advertiser - before the price of the advertisements gets to high and the advertiser has to leave and go elsewhere. A car dealer in Pittsburgh is not going to want to pay to transmit to Punxsutawney Pennsylvania - just because you like to watch their news reports. He is out to sell cars and he knows that you will not drive 80 miles to come to his show room to buy a used car or a new car and so he doesn't care if you can get their signals because it is of no benefit to him. Where as I do drive to Pittsburgh and the dealers all knows me by name due to the fact that I was in the used car business for a number of years and I bought new and used cars off those dealers and they know that I am going to come back and they know that I am going to refer all my friends to do business with them in the future. But people refuse to spend their money wisely and don't always listen to what I have to say and they will go to car lot X and pay $1000 more for the same vehicle - because they want it today and they don't have the cash to pay it in full and they don't care how much it costs, just how much is the monthly payment. If you are in the market area of the stations you are having problems with, I would be more than willing to suggest a pre amplifier that would help your cause and a more sensitive antenna, and rotor that would help to position your antenna properly. But if your goal is to watch The Wheel of Fortune from a station 100 miles away in the middle of a mountain range in Colorado, it's not going to happen.

06-26-2009, 04:08 PM	#8
JB Antennaman High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Jefferson County - Pennsylvania, high atop a hill Posts: 723	Can they easily turn the power down or up - YEP. People should watch the movie UHF. Read their Bio - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHF_(film) A inside joke of 14 KQV a old Pittsburgh Am Radio station was when they did a skit one morning on the radio about how someone in Pittsburgh opened a television station on channel 1. There is no channel 1 in the USA. They told their listeners that you could receive it if you held the knob of the television between the UHF and channel 2. People ran to the television stores to try to get converter boxes so they could watch channel 1. Or the Fox viewing position on Married With Children. When Married With Children came out - it was on Fox and most of the Fox stations were on low power UHF and people had to do all sorts of strange things to receive it. Family's holding hands and touching the rabbit ear antenna for a half an hour at a time or putting tin foil on the end of the antenna to produce a little more gain so they could receive the channel.

06-27-2009, 08:58 AM	#11
JB Antennaman High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Jefferson County - Pennsylvania, high atop a hill Posts: 723	Note - I said hometown for the transmitter - not the station address. Clearfield Pa is about 40 miles from State College.

06-27-2009, 11:55 AM	#12
Loves2Watch Ohmmmmmm Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: AZ, NM, TX, MX Posts: 15,819	I didn't loose any stations but instead gained some as I was prepared for the switch by installing the proper antenna two years ago. __________________ Theater 1 - Panasonic PT-AE4000U, Draper Premier 119" 16:9 Projector Screen, Panasonic TH-85PF12U Plasma TV, 6 Conrad Johnson LP275M Amps, Anthem Statement D-2 Pre/Pro, 6 Thiel SCS4 Speakers, 2 REL T-1 Subs, Infinity Interlude 120S Sub, Simaudio MOON Orbiter Universal Disc Player, ELP Laser Turntable, 2 Dish Network ViP 622 DVR's, Oppo BDP-83 Blu-ray Player, Onkyo DV-HD805 HD DVD Player. Friends don't let friends buy Korean brand TV's or Sony audio equipment.

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